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pook-pook

New player experience, just the first hour, resulting in ragequit and probably no return

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Posted (edited)

Don't worry, when i started i did one mission and stop playing. 

Came back 2 months later to give it a try again. Then i learn that you need to repair the orbiter consoles then you have one console that is name the Codex. That console give you quest and much more. Take a look.

It's not everything but i learn alot from it. After that you have the wiki for warframe that will almost give you every thing you need to know.

Edited by Spaceland

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29 minutes ago, pook-pook said:

I wish I could lock a post from further replies. The responses here, varying from completely lacking in empathy, to pointing out how much better at video games you are, to huge assumptions (I'm not a new player, I've been playing practically every day for almost two years, I watch all the devstreams avidly, I think I do a pretty good job of parenting) are so depressing. I was trying to give feedback to DE (the purpose of this forum) but y'all don't seem to think that's worth it.

Thanks for the folks with the positive, helpful responses.

Don't worry about the white knight cultist so much the game has quite a few of em for some reason. It has been a meme for ages on how bad new player experience is and I'm pretty sure plenty of ppl can agree it's just that they aren't playing the game to back this up, I mean how many million registered users but only how many few thousand concurrent players? While back there were even number statistic over half quit under the 10 hr mark. It has nothing to do with who is better cuz as you said the game give players no consistent story pacing or direction. nor does it explain many of its unique systems more clearly such as modding to new players. Even the market still try to bait new players with plat when it should still be made clear they can get stuff for credits. Open world areas was meant to make the game appealing to new players (even Tho most ppl agree it shouldn't be a new player focus) but on top a rocky foundation few new players already had only made it more rocky for them to add more to their plate right off the bat. while I remember making a new account couple years back junctions feel like wall blockers no different than Anthem tomb doors instead of making them real story checkpoints that could clear things up for ppl so they want to go to them. New player experience is a headache I wish you luck if you decide to go through it, then you can have the headache of a veteran player cuz they still refuse to give us challenging endgame lmao 

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12 hours ago, GinKenshin said:

'does something that isn't suppose to be done'

'blames game for it' 

'quit' 

:facepalm:

I'm sorry, what isn't supposed to be done here? Because the Plains of Eidolon are on the literal starter planet, are one of the first nodes the player will encounter, and are necessary to pass through if the player wants to progress to the Mars junction (i.e. the entire rest of the game besides Venus and Mercury). The player is intended to experience Cetus and the Plains from a very early point in their playthrough, and currently attempting to do so represents a massive spike in difficulty. Imagine if you were playing a singleplayer game, and all of a sudden the game decided to drop you with a pistol in a room full of boss enemies: that's the kind of spike that's found at points in Warframe, in addition to a shaky early progression that abandons the player to their own devices before giving them any goals to work towards.

More generally, I fail to see why one would debate the OP when DE themselves have openly admitted on numerous occasions that they're not happy with Warframe's new player experience, and are setting out to remake it. What I think will be essential is a continuous questing experience that guides the player from planet to planet, even if it need not restrict the player in any manner either, and a far more progressive learning curve that takes the time to introduce the game's systems properly, set objectives, and so on. I also think someone at DE needs to play the game from the start and take note of how the lore is conveyed to the player: for the Plains of Eidolon to talk openly about Sentients, when the Sentient in following major quests are treated like this long-forgotten secret, is a massive lore consistency fail, and I think should warrant some kind of retconning so that players only find out what Eidolons truly are after The Second Dream.

Also, while this is a topic that could be elaborated upon much better in another discussion, I think the game's vertical power progression really works against it: putting aside the massive balance problems it induces at higher levels, I think it makes the new player experience even worse by repeatedly putting the player in situations where they fail because of a stat check, not because they failed to learn some crucial mechanic properly. The game absolutely does not need to stat check new players when said players are already being asked to internalize massive amounts of information regarding a whole bunch of lore, mechanics, and so on, some of which will remain relevant for a long time, and some of which will be discarded as soon as it is taught (except the player has no way of knowing which is which). Warframe is a game that can offer unparalleled gameplay experiences, but the process of getting to that point is super rough, and absolutely needs to be smoothed out.

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3 hours ago, Ohforf3 said:

OV is slightly better located as a side branch but the intro quest is stupid hard for newbies.

This and agreed. Largely because it's solo-only and most newbies won't have the daka, rank mods, or resiliency to finish the last mission without some kind of additional help.

I had a new player join my clan very recently (MR 4) who was immensely frustrated at not being able to clear the mission by herself - and of course I couldn't join up with her. So I asked her if she had any Phase Specter BP's in her inventory. She said yes. I suggested she build and equip them in her gear wheel.

Next day I get a virtual glomp and a message saying she finally cleared the quest by the skin of her teeth with the aide of a Phase Specter.

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14 hours ago, GinKenshin said:

'does something that isn't suppose to be done'

'blames game for it' 

'quit' 

:facepalm:

This kind of errant behavior right here is the reason why I don't even bother talking to users in general of these forums. The arrogance, the simple-mindedness and the outright lack of bothering to understand what the person is dealing with, why they're feeling that way and offering useful information, is rather off-putting. I 'facepalm' at this ongoing negative behavior continually displayed by forum users.

"Facepalm." That is completely inappropriate and is more telling of the deficiencies of this game. This long-term player, in ignorance, expects absolutely everyone to know exactly what to do next, while the new user, who should have guidance but doesn't have it, makes mistakes. In spite of all these content updates, additions, etc., clearly the game is not easily understood by people who just pick it up and play it.

This game clearly needs an in-game wiki, video links and a longer tutorial to help people get grounded.

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14 hours ago, pook-pook said:

So once the Vor mission ends: "what am I supposed to do now???" which I think we all understand is a common problem.There's lots *to* do, but none of it's explained at all. Kid had no idea there were more quests.

So, finally we figure that Cetus is the next stop, and that kicks off the Gara storyline, which involves Sentients ("what the heck are sentients?!") and a bunch of missions on the plains.

Uh... 

You are meant to head in the other direction and come back later. The game sort of tells us the levels of the enemies in the given nodes. Many of the nodes are lower levels like 1-3 or 1-6. The plains can be 40-60.....

If you've been playing, and are familiar with the game, it would have been good to point him in the right direction, instead of directing him to Cetus like you suggested above. 

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1 hour ago, Teridax68 said:

I'm sorry, what isn't supposed to be done here? Because the Plains of Eidolon are on the literal starter planet, are one of the first nodes the player will encounter, and are necessary to pass through if the player wants to progress to the Mars junction (i.e. the entire rest of the game besides Venus and Mercury). The player is intended to experience Cetus and the Plains from a very early point in their playthrough, and currently attempting to do so represents a massive spike in difficulty. Imagine if you were playing a singleplayer game, and all of a sudden the game decided to drop you with a pistol in a room full of boss enemies: that's the kind of spike that's found at points in Warframe, in addition to a shaky early progression that abandons the player to their own devices before giving them any goals to work towards.

More generally, I fail to see why one would debate the OP when DE themselves have openly admitted on numerous occasions that they're not happy with Warframe's new player experience, and are setting out to remake it. What I think will be essential is a continuous questing experience that guides the player from planet to planet, even if it need not restrict the player in any manner either, and a far more progressive learning curve that takes the time to introduce the game's systems properly, set objectives, and so on. I also think someone at DE needs to play the game from the start and take note of how the lore is conveyed to the player: for the Plains of Eidolon to talk openly about Sentients, when the Sentient in following major quests are treated like this long-forgotten secret, is a massive lore consistency fail, and I think should warrant some kind of retconning so that players only find out what Eidolons truly are after The Second Dream.

Also, while this is a topic that could be elaborated upon much better in another discussion, I think the game's vertical power progression really works against it: putting aside the massive balance problems it induces at higher levels, I think it makes the new player experience even worse by repeatedly putting the player in situations where they fail because of a stat check, not because they failed to learn some crucial mechanic properly. The game absolutely does not need to stat check new players when said players are already being asked to internalize massive amounts of information regarding a whole bunch of lore, mechanics, and so on, some of which will remain relevant for a long time, and some of which will be discarded as soon as it is taught (except the player has no way of knowing which is which). Warframe is a game that can offer unparalleled gameplay experiences, but the process of getting to that point is super rough, and absolutely needs to be smoothed out.

From what I understood from the OP, it gave the impression that the kid was actively doing Cetus content outside of the first bounty and quest, that’s what I was referring to as unnecessary. The reason Poe is on earth it basically to show off, DE wants ppl to know how big and ‘quality filled’ this game is to impress people, simple as that. They do a crappy job of letting people know that they’re not suppose to stay here, sure

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How the heck can anyone with eyes get confused about where to go?  Level ranges are RIGHT THERE, and there's a huge map of the entire system at the front of your ship the entire time, with tasks, quests, and paths clearly laid out.

How is "Just play more of the game don't worry about it" after the intro quest so easy to miss, apparently?  Did the Starchart just up and stop existing once Cetus entered play?

If such a teeny-tiny and entirely-self-inflicted setback is enough to make someone swear of the game forever, they weren't long for it anyway.

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Oh, that's a pity. I hope they get over it and come back, it's worth it. But at twice my years playing this game you already discovered that long before I did. Nice to pass it on though, I think sharing WF with your kid is very cool. I only had my own wits to rely upon, and still remember tip-toeing out on the plains for the first time feeling like I had no right to be there lol.

After clearing the starchart I do miss that a little. All those worlds to explore and conquer! And feeling I could get my butt handed to me at any moment was always part of my most exhilerating, best experiences as a new player. I still savor those moments.

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Ya know, maybe its time to take your kid to Hydron...

After some time, Rubico Rivens and stuff, pretty sure your kid can solo Eidolons.

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21 hours ago, pook-pook said:

Positives: the Vor storyline works well to introduce a new player to a bunch of the mechanics. Once it's over though...

The game comes completely off the rails, there's just no way to sugar-coat it, it's just plain broken.

I had friends help me understand what to do when I started playing, and that was (just) prior to PoE.

My kid just started playing, made it through Vor just fine. Chose Excalibur with the Paris, Kunai and Bo because NINJAS IN SPACE (and also a strong Overwatch ninja brothers influence). Has a bunch of fun! Yeah!

So once the Vor mission ends: "what am I supposed to do now???" which I think we all understand is a common problem.There's lots *to* do, but none of it's explained at all. Kid had no idea there were more quests.

So, finally we figure that Cetus is the next stop, and that kicks off the Gara storyline, which involves Sentients ("what the heck are sentients?!") and a bunch of missions on the plains.

Only, we're still running rank 4-6 gear, with the mk-1 Paris, Kunai and Bo. Unranked mods, if any at all.

On the Plains of Eidolon.

With @#$%ers up in the sky that are hard to hit with a bow at the best of times and just try taking one out with a rank 4 mk-1 Paris with an unranked Serration. Yeah. Lots of frustrating deaths, trying to scan hard-to-see little things around the place.

Ragequit. Probably won't come back to the game.

Venus junction is your first stop

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4 hours ago, Vox_Preliator said:

How the heck can anyone with eyes get confused about where to go?  Level ranges are RIGHT THERE, and there's a huge map of the entire system at the front of your ship the entire time, with tasks, quests, and paths clearly laid out.

How is "Just play more of the game don't worry about it" after the intro quest so easy to miss, apparently?  Did the Starchart just up and stop existing once Cetus entered play?

If such a teeny-tiny and entirely-self-inflicted setback is enough to make someone swear of the game forever, they weren't long for it anyway.

Apparently kids these days don't understand the concept of soft gating.  You have the choice of 2 paths.  You pick one and get your butt kicked.  'Git Good' or realize that this is likely the developers telling them to try the other path and come back later.  This kid got smacked down a few times and decided that there is no way to progress so he quit without looking at the other path.

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5 hours ago, GinKenshin said:

From what I understood from the OP, it gave the impression that the kid was actively doing Cetus content outside of the first bounty and quest, that’s what I was referring to as unnecessary.

But then the OP laid out pretty clearly that the problem with PoE was that their kid, who at that point was armed with nothing but crappy projectile weapons and a MK-1 Bo, was put up against Dargyns, flying vehicles who could pelt their warframe while moving too fast and too high to be reasonably hit with those kinds of ranged weapons (which would be unlikely to deal much damage anyway, even at the lowest bounty level). They also specifically mentioned this was throughout the Gara questline, itself designed to be introductory-level.

5 hours ago, GinKenshin said:

The reason Poe is on earth it basically to show off, DE wants ppl to know how big and ‘quality filled’ this game is to impress people, simple as that. They do a crappy job of letting people know that they’re not suppose to stay here, sure

How is anyone supposed to know or care about this? Why does PoE being a show piece require it to have poor balance for newcomers, especially when it has content geared towards lower levels? This is already a crappy excuse when written in a forum post, but in practice it translates to people giving Warframe an honest try, getting impressed with the Plains, trying them out, then ragequitting after they turn out to be so terribly balanced for their early power level that the impression of polished game quality is lost immediately. The solution to this shouldn't be to tell players "don't play this until you're geared up because this is just for show", because that'd be silly, it should be to balance at least the lower levels better so that a player entering with starting gear doesn't find themselves thrown into an obscene difficulty spike.

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21 hours ago, GinKenshin said:

1- it doesn't

2- it directly tells you that you "don't want to be out here at night" 

That right there is utter nonsense, not to put too fine a point on it. The Cetus node is on the way to the Rail Junctions, meaning players are required to go there and speak with Konzu, upon which point it's reasonable to pick up on the quest he offers. That's how video games are supposed to work. And while you're told that Cetus is dangerous AT NIGHT, this is told to you while actually doing Cetus content and also logically suggests that you ought to go there during the day rather than leave altogether. I damn near gave up on the game, too, as it ran me through Cetus and threw all the end-game complexity of a bazillion vendors and Syndicate standing at me within my first few hours.

 

21 hours ago, GinKenshin said:

3- even when the game directs you towards something, the devs and the game expects you to have some common sense and knowledge to know that whatever it is you're doing might be a bit outta your league and that you should try something else....you know, like clearing the starchart? 

Which would help, if any sort of goal were communicated to the player whatsoever. "Clearing the star chart" is something you see talked about on forums, but is in no way mentioned in the game. Indeed, the game does absolutely nothing post Vor's Prize to give the player any indication of what they're even supposed to do or why they're supposed to want to. I've introduce multiple people to the game at this point, and that has been the major sticking point. "OK, first quest is over, now what do I do? What is the story here?" Leaving your players listless and expecting them to figure out how to make their own fun until some more game happens is hostile game design unbefitting a new player's first real experience with Warframe.

This game is popular DESPITE its introductory sections, rather than because of them. I myself damn near rage-quit over a dozen times just within the first few planets and ended up having to ask questions on the Steam forums over and over again. Everyone I've introduced to the game has had to be talked out of rage-quitting on multiple occasions, as well as carried to at least some extent. The new player experience does a massive disservice to what is otherwise a pretty good game that many people will never get to see.

 

20 hours ago, WhiteMarker said:

Nobody held my hand when I started playing. I learned everything by doing it, by testing. I tried what I can do, or what I couldn't do.
I love the fact more people play videogames these days. But I hate the fact that people are just lost. Nobody wants to explore anymore.

That's patently untrue and you know it. People are fine with exploring as they've always been. It's just that the unstructured "emergent gameplay" games of the late 90s aren't cutting it any more. You need to give players some kind of structure, some kind of direction and reason to care. You can't just create content, plop it down in front of players and clock out for lunch any more. This goes double for a game that's as "#*!%ing weird" as Warframe, where most terms are replaced by gobbledygook gibberish, everyone looks cyberpunk space chicken and most of the systems are unique to this game. You can get away with little to no tutorialising in your average world MMO because most people would have likely played at least a few of those and would come with knowledge of basic concepts, but Warframe is a unique and confusing experience.

Would it hurt to give me at least a basic primer on the game's story and purpose before letting me loose on the world? Would it hurt to introduce terms and names before assuming I'm familiar with them? I spent weeks mixing up "tenno" with "endo," for example, because they sound alike and I have no real concept what either of them mean starting out. If the point of the game is to explore and unlock nodes on the Star Chart, then would it hurt to let players know that? Because Vor's Prize makes it seem like there will be some kind of guiding narrative throughout "the campaign" like there is in The Division and similar games. Would it hurt to give players a primer on what a "Greneer" and a "Corpus" is, or that there do exist civilian human colonies, or what an "Orokin" might be at least from the perspective of an uneducated colonist?

You need to give players a hook. You need to give players some entry point. You need to give players some grounding. Most people will explore just fine once they're established to at least some extent. But because Warframe is as weird and exotic of a game as it is, most players leave before they even have any sort of footing from which to explore the game in the first place. I'm glad you managed to explore the game just fine. I did as well, and the experience was so confusing, miserable and unrewarding up until I got a decent idea of what I'm even looking at that I probably wouldn't do it again if I had to.

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1 hour ago, Steel_Rook said:

That's patently untrue and you know it. People are fine with exploring as they've always been. It's just that the unstructured "emergent gameplay" games of the late 90s aren't cutting it any more.

Side comment, but the reason unstructured games work is because they a) set appropriate goals, and b) set those goals before leaving the player to their own devices in their freeform world. Skyrim doesn't just dump the player out of Helgen and tells them to do whatever, it gives them a quest to go to a nearby village, which then continues the main quest line that carries the player throughout the in-game world and beyond. The player can ignore that quest and go in any direction as they so choose, but nonetheless have a guiding line in case they ever need direction. Minecraft has a sandbox mode that is truly unstructured, where the player is made aware that the goal is pure creative freedom, but then Story Mode serves as an introduction that tells the player how to gather resources, how to craft, why they should build a house, all the way through to an end to its questline.

Meanwhile, Warframe isn't really a sandbox game, so much as a very large game that has plenty of goals, but fails to communicate them clearly to the player when they get started: for sure, finding new frames, weapons, etc. is a goal, as should be exploring the System, uncovering its secrets, and so on, but new players can't really know that, not even by consulting the wiki. Instead, the player is dropped into a massive world they know virtually nothing about, and are expected to "find the fun" without even being told what "the fun" even is: is Warframe a sandbox game? Is it a MMO looter shooter? Is it a narrative-driven RPG? Technically, it's a bit of everything, but strictly none of that is conveyed in Vor's Prize or even much onwards. At the very least, a continuous questing experience from one end of the System to the other (or beyond, with The New War) would provide the guiding thread the game needs to tug the player in some direction. I don't even think it's that lofty a goal, considering how we already have several quests that help with this, and how there's a whole bunch of lore-related events that ought to be reintroduced as quests anyway to fill in the gaps, especially considering how they also tend to introduce new characters and features along the way.

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33 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

Side comment, but the reason unstructured games work is because they a) set appropriate goals, and b) set those goals before leaving the player to their own devices in their freeform world. Skyrim doesn't just dump the player out of Helgen and tells them to do whatever, it gives them a quest to go to a nearby village, which then continues the main quest line that carries the player throughout the in-game world and beyond. The player can ignore that quest and go in any direction as they so choose, but nonetheless have a guiding line in case they ever need direction. Minecraft has a sandbox mode that is truly unstructured, where the player is made aware that the goal is pure creative freedom, but then Story Mode serves as an introduction that tells the player how to gather resources, how to craft, why they should build a house, all the way through to an end to its questline.

Fair point and absolutely agreed. Sandboxes like MineCraft, Ark and Space Engineers can work, as long as players are aware of what they're getting into and are doing so intentionally. That way, each individual player can explore the game's mechanics and either set their own emergent goals or else get bored and leave. That's been my experience with Space Engineers, certainly. Semi-sandboxes like Skyrim and the Gothic games CAN work as a typical sandbox if the player chooses to ignore "the main quest," but said main quest still exists for those seeking a more guided experience. I've not played Skyrim, but Fallout 3 is a perfect example of this done well. The main objective is broad and long-term, but there IS an objective at all times. You can still put yourself in a listless state, say by shooting Three Dog before getting information about Father from him, but that's pretty much the player's doing and so the player's choice.

I agree, then, with your general premise. Unless a game is up-front about being an open-ended sandbox and players are getting into it for that reason, there really ought to be some kind of at least general goal given to players at least through the majority of content. You don't have to have a linear voiced storyline from beginning to end ala your typical Division game (mostly because that's expensive) but at least keeping the player appraised of some broad, non-emergent, non-random goal really, really help. Given that Warframe is not such a sandbox, lacking that kind of broad goal hurts the game more than it helps, I think.

The thing is, you don't really need major cinematic quests. You just need a decent wrap-up to Vor's Prize: something which introduces us to at least the broad-strokes lore of the universe as might be known to a random peasant on Mars, followed by a general non-committal goal. Said goal could be as basic as "Unlock the Venus Junction" just to get players going. You could even use the "Prologue" style of quests... Call it an "Epiloque" if you will, and have it consist of one voiced narration from the Lotus and one goal of Reaching Venus. Maybe follow that with a basic write-up of potential goals. Basically, anything to ease players into the depth of the game, rather than Sparta Kicking them into the deep end and clocking out for lunch would be nice.

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OP, I sympathize. Warframe's "New Player" experience is bottom of the barrel (and frankly, I'm always surprised that anyone even considers debating that). 

My recommendation is to go to the Wiki, search for all of the strange terminology the game uses, and learn what you can. You will inevitably spoil yourself on a lot of things if you want to make substantial progress. I was fortunate not to have Cetus standing in my way when I started, but honestly...it was still an extremely unfriendly experience - I tried to start playing the game twice before I resigned myself to third-party tools to learn how it actually works.

It does get better, but only if you go outside the game and study up on how everything works. 

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Posted (edited)

Have posted before and will post again that 1. New players should be led through the first four planets before being able to go anywhere else, do any specialized tiles including Cetus/Lua/Orb Vallis. 2. The ability to get taxi to unlocked tiles before unlocking ALL "normal" tiles on the first four planets should be removed. A player who has done all the normal starchart tiles on the first four planets is not guaranteed to be better geared and skilled by the end of it, but the odds are heavy that they will be.

Do the above, and then the only tutorial/wiki necessary instantly becomes "Explore and complete these four planets." Nothing on those planets is too difficult to grasp or complete for newbies.

I almost uninstalled WF in the first couple of days way back, due mainly to the awful, nonimmersive maps full of black holes in inexplicable places, constant mob respawn even after the mission was done, needlessly long runs to extraction (for new players), and getting the feeling of a rat running a maze instead of a space ninja addressing tactical maps with tactical goals. Had I been younger during my more "elitist" days, I would have uninstalled it near instantly.

WF could retain a huge % more of players than they do, while also boosting the general skill level of players, simply by 1. limiting newbie options until they completely unlock 30-40 tiles of early, normal content, and 2. redoing lots of maps to get rid of black holes, make them less mazelike and more newb friendly generally, and 3. reining in the out of hand AOE cheeze in the midgame. As it is, the game is "successful" but with lousy retention given the vast number of people who have tried it.

Edited by Buttaface
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Posted (edited)

There are a few problems with the new player experience, yes.

  • First of all, the game has grown over time, with parts in various states of completion, and reworks, and additions. Some of it -- and I think it helps a lot with player retention -- were in the form of limited time events. These can leave a "hole" for newcomers, too. The official patch notes and other information on the forums alone are hundreds of pages by now.
     
  • Another problem is that the game is supposedly for a mature audience (13+), but lately I have the impression it tries hard to cater to pretty much everyone.
     
  • Plains and Orb Vallis offer content for a broad spectrum of the player base, and as such are not very newbie friendly outside of a very narrow zone around the entrance. They had to be on the first planets, though, to make them widely accessible. The game, of course, doesn't tell you anything about that.
     
  • I think the game should at least point out that there are some weapons you can get from the market for Credits only. Picking the "wrong" starting gear is definitely an issue.

 

=> Keep the wiki by your side. Don't be afraid to ask questions on the forums or in Region chat -- although the latter can be hit and miss, but keep trying. Unlock star chart nodes first of all, that also gives you access to different kinds of resources. Replace the MK1 weapons asap. Try to find a clan with helpful people.

If simple tips like these were given at the start it would already be much less problematic, I think.

Edited by Kontrollo

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4 hours ago, Ham_Grenabe said:

It does get better, but only if you go outside the game and study up on how everything works. 

Quoted for truth. New players shouldn't have to rely on an outside source to grasp some of the more complex FUNDAMENTALS of the game. It also doesn't help that the tutorials that cover those fundamentals are buried in the codex and the codex console itself isn't advertised as much as it ought to be when players first start out.

Seriously, that new player I told you all about? She had no idea that there was a codex, let alone an ingame tutorial system, until I told her about it.

I'll say it again:  New players shouldn't have to rely on an outside source to master the fundamentals of the game and the ingame tutorials need to be better advertised / more accessible than they are.

Honestly, I don't blame new players for giving up so quickly. The amount of stuff they're exposed to can be extremely intimidating and frustrating.

3 hours ago, Buttaface said:

WF could retain a huge % more of players than they do, while also boosting the general skill level of players, simply by 1. limiting newbie options until they completely unlock 30-40 tiles of early, normal content, and 2. redoing lots of maps to get rid of black holes, make them less mazelike and more newb friendly generally, and 3. reining in the out of hand AOE cheeze in the midgame. As it is, the game is "successful" but with lousy retention given the vast number of people who have tried it

...and promptly given up in frustration I may add. I'm willing to bet that at least 25% of all those millions of registered users are long dead accounts that have a month or less of actual gameplay on them.

That said, I regret that I have only one upvote to give your post.

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On 2019-05-12 at 12:11 PM, pook-pook said:

If my kid does come back from the ragequit, I plan on making sure there's a hitscan primary in the kit so that the Plains are feasible...

 

Also, thanks for the great response @Darkmega18 !

Leave the plains and focus solely on clearing the star chart and google the rest its very overwhelming starting but stick at it and all will settle into place ocer the space of a week

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3 minutes ago, thurmack said:


You took the time to look up the dude's account and check out his other recent posts, but didn't bother to read the one you wanted to complain about?
He's talking about his kid.

I'd agree with you except for the following:

On 2019-05-12 at 6:44 AM, pook-pook said:

So once the Vor mission ends: "what am I supposed to do now???" which I think we all understand is a common problem.There's lots *to* do, but none of it's explained at all. Kid had no idea there were more quests.

So, finally we figure that Cetus is the next stop, and that kicks off the Gara storyline, which involves Sentients ("what the heck are sentients?!") and a bunch of missions on the plains.

Emphasis added. 

That "we" suggests that the parent had a hand in the decision making, and may have advised the kid to go the wrong way, instead of pointing out the mission level system which would have helped the kid to progress against newb appropriate enemies. 

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Posted (edited)
3 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

I'd agree with you except for the following: 

Emphasis added. 

That "we" suggests that the parent had a hand in the decision making, and may have advised the kid to go the wrong way, instead of pointing out the mission level system which would have helped the kid to progress against newb appropriate enemies. 

OK, my bad, clearly 😅 "we" there is a bunch of extra story that I compressed for brevity: Kid said "what do I do now?" I said "what does the solar rail thing on the star chart say to do?" kid said "go to Cetus". OK, off they go.

But, you know, if you need to bend my words to fit your narrative, go for it 😂

Edited by pook-pook
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Posted (edited)
56 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

I'd agree with you except for the following:

Emphasis added. 

That "we" suggests that the parent had a hand in the decision making, and may have advised the kid to go the wrong way, instead of pointing out the mission level system which would have helped the kid to progress against newb appropriate enemies. 

I was critiquing a fellow that complained about the OP calling himself a new player, which the OP did not do, which would be obvious to anyone that read the original post.
As to whether or not the OP should have counseled his kid differently, I don't know that it's fair to call into question the interpersonal dynamics of him and his kid without more information. Perhaps the OP was trying to be autonomy-supportive, or maybe it has been a long time since he played the beginning of the game and he forgot how the challenge ramps up, or maybe the arrows pointing to the Plains of Eidolon were added long after he played it himself and he had no idea Konzu would push newbies out into their deaths.

I only started this game recently myself and we (my sister and I) got wrecked by the Plains. In particular we were dismayed by the foes that were invulnerable to our attacks. But we came over from Path of Exile so unforgiving mechanics with a lot of nuanced complexity are kind of our thing. Some engagement with the community (who are generally very helpful), and a lot of wiki research, and we plotted a path through the starchart to Saturn. I didn't comment earlier because frankly not everyone likes to have to sleuth everything out for themselves, and I empathize with the kid even if I enjoy a game that sometimes puts me through the ringer. But that dude that attacked the OP's character after at best skimming the original comment - that's uncool.

 

Edited by thurmack
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9 hours ago, pook-pook said:

OK, my bad, clearly 😅 "we" there is a bunch of extra story that I compressed for brevity: Kid said "what do I do now?" I said "what does the solar rail thing on the star chart say to do?" kid said "go to Cetus". OK, off they go.

But, you know, if you need to bend my words to fit your narrative, go for it 😂

And that would work, except I'm not going to play along and mysteriously forget that there are two junctions on Earth. One of which leads to Venus and the other to Mars. 

The one going to Venus is the newb friendly option. The one going to Mars can't be done without first going to Venus and then Mercury. 

I don't know if either actually asks you to go to Cetus. 

 

If someone new comes to you for advice, and you hear them saying something about heading into a high level zone that newbs would have a hard time doing, the very least you can do is point out the mission levels so that they know what they are walking into. 

But hey, if you are cool with setting your own kid up to have a bad time so you can push your skewed narrative, that's on you. 

8 hours ago, thurmack said:

I was critiquing a fellow that complained about the OP calling himself a new player, which the OP did not do, which would be obvious to anyone that read the original post.

Yes, and I'm saying that in pointing out the forest, you missed the trees. 

Quote


As to whether or not the OP should have counseled his kid differently, I don't know that it's fair to call into question the interpersonal dynamics of him and his kid without more information. Perhaps the OP was trying to be autonomy-supportive, or maybe it has been a long time since he played the beginning of the game and he forgot how the challenge ramps up, or maybe the arrows pointing to the Plains of Eidolon were added long after he played it himself and he had no idea Konzu would push newbies out into their deaths.

Neither of those works. Encouraging autonomy means also encouraging them to accept the consequences of their choices. In this case the parent seems to have said "sure kid, you do that", watched them fail repeatedly and then com the on here to blame others for that. 

It being a long time since they've played the beginning of the game, doesn't work as you recently tried to pull up someone who pointed out how old the parent's account is and their activity since. 

I can fathom that it was a miscommunication:

Parent "what does the solar rail thingy say you need to do" 

Child : no idea what a solar rail thingy is, maybe Parent means the map? There are blue dots on the map, this one says Cetus? "uh it says go to Cetus?" 

Parent : "yeah ok, whatever, just do what it says to do" 

Child : "yay, thanks Parent!" 

Quote


I only started this game recently myself and we (my sister and I) got wrecked by the Plains. In particular we were dismayed by the foes that were invulnerable to our attacks. But we came over from Path of Exile so unforgiving mechanics with a lot of nuanced complexity are kind of our thing. Some engagement with the community (who are generally very helpful), and a lot of wiki research, and we plotted a path through the starchart to Saturn. I didn't comment earlier because frankly not everyone likes to have to sleuth everything out for themselves, and I empathize with the kid even if I enjoy a game that sometimes puts me through the ringer. But that dude that attacked the OP's character after at best skimming the original comment - that's uncool.

I guarantee that your path to Saturn involved first going to the Venus junction and getting your first Sentinel. And that required you to apply mods to your gear, and fuse mods. 

Please understand, I agree with you about the game needing to be better at guiding newbs. I got my butt handed to me on the Plains too. When that happened I thought "well looks like I'm not in the starter zone anymore" and when back to the drawing board, and found the path the game wanted me to take. 

But in this case, this is a parent whose child came to them for advice, apparently setting up the child to fail, and then blaming the game. That's beyond uncool. 

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