Shield gating is essential - for certain frames to be useful at high levels

[Ramflare]

The problem: Mag, Nyx, Ember & several others are flimsy enough in sortie - arbitration levels where they can easily be killed in one shot. This is not fun, not challenging, just annoying and restrictive of player agency.

The Solution: All frames get Hildryn's shield gating mechanic, a direct copy/paste, perhaps reducing the invulnerability period to 1 second

What it would mean: Players of flimsy frames now have a chance to prevent themselves from dying, where previously you'd die instantly, you now have a chance to get out of danger or eliminate the threat. Tank frames would remain tanks and wouldn't be any more game breaking/absurdly durable as they are now but frames with less health & armor would be viable for high level content.

Please, share your thoughts.

Edited May 12, 2019 by Ramflare
formatting

[Gunslinger]

I think we have something better.
 

Spoiler

https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Adaptation

Also, if I remember it right they did spoke about shield gating in a dev-stream prior to Hildys release something about that she's a "test frame" for shield gating.

Edited May 12, 2019 by Void-Gunslinger

[Chipputer]

18 minutes ago, Void-Gunslinger said:

I think we have something better.
 

  Reveal hidden contents

https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Adaptation

 

Adaptation doesn't work the way you think it does and still requires you to get hit by attacks to ramp up and continue to take damage to keep it up. Squishier frames aren't going to be able to sustain that.

On top of that, it doesn't work the way you think it does. It's not a flat 90% damage reduction. It adds 90% to individual damage types. You're still taking more than 10% damage from a type that your frame is weak to.

[Gunslinger]

1 minute ago, Chipputer said:

Adaptation doesn't work the way you think it does and still requires you to get hit by attacks to ramp up and continue to take damage to keep it up. Squishier frames aren't going to be able to sustain that.

On top of that, it doesn't work the way you think it does. It's not a flat 90% damage reduction. It adds 90% to individual damage types. You're still taking more than 10% damage from a type that your frame is weak to.

Wow, did you gather all that from what I said?


I think that Adaptation offers a better protection than a 1 sec. invulnerability when your shields are depleted. Even DE stated that they tested shields gating and the result is not very encouraging. Yes, it works on Hildy because she has a $hit-ton of shields. 
Thanks for the "You know nothing, John Snow" moment though. 

[Chipputer]

25 minutes ago, Void-Gunslinger said:

Wow, did you gather all that from what I said?

I did, actually, because you offered it as a solution to a frame like Nyx. If you understood how it worked you'd realize that it's not a solution for her, or frames like her, at all.

[Ramflare]

2 hours ago, Void-Gunslinger said:

 Even DE stated that they tested shields gating and the result is not very encouraging.

I can't speak for the tests they did or how extensive they were but I think it would help a fair bit;

2 hours ago, Void-Gunslinger said:

I think that Adaptation offers a better protection than a 1 sec. invulnerability when your shields are depleted. Even DE stated that they tested shields gating and the result is not very encouraging. Yes, it works on Hildy because she has a $hit-ton of shields. 
Thanks for the "You know nothing, John Snow" moment though. 

The point isn't necessarily protection. It's more just a way to stop you getting shot in the back and killed in one go. Take Nyx as an example, 1 second warning before you die allows you to use her 3 and lock down stray enemies or activate her 4 to absorb the damage, knockdown your enemies and get away. Flimsy frames have all sorts of useful abilities to help get out of trouble but you can never use them in time for the moments that count.

Adaptation is useless in this sense.

Edited May 13, 2019 by Ramflare
correction

[(PSN)big_eviljak]

2 hours ago, Chipputer said:

I did, actually, because you offered it as a solution to a frame like Nyx. If you understood how it worked you'd realize that it's not a solution for her, or frames like her, at all.

Adaptation is great. It works wonderful. Throw on rolling guard and u get 3s of invulnerability... Better than shield gating. 

[Bristoling]

Adaptation, Redirection/Vitality or Quick Thinking with Flow/P. Flow, possibly Rolling Guard there as well? Just to be able to survive as well as frames like Gara, Nidus or Mesa with a press of a button. Hilarious.

Not to mention that there are reports of Adaptation not working in the void and other bugs and limitations of the mod.

Maybe it's time we got Umbral Redirection and buffed raw values of shields/maximum value of overshields?

Edited May 13, 2019 by Bristoling

[KuramaKitsune]

3 hours ago, Bristoling said:

Adaptation, Redirection/Vitality or Quick Thinking with Flow/P. Flow, possibly Rolling Guard there as well? Just to be able to survive as well as frames like Gara, Nidus or Mesa with a press of a button. Hilarious.

Not to mention that there are reports of Adaptation not working in the void and other bugs and limitations of the mod.

Maybe it's time we got Umbral Redirection and buffed raw values of shields/maximum value of overshields?

Yeah but we don't want to turn this into World of Warcraft where we have HP and shields values in the hundreds of thousands

 

[(XBOX)flipsyalec]

I would love shield gating, but if DE is saying they're testing it and it doesn't look great, then I think I'd have to believe them. 

Bit of another angle of attack though, I'm of the opinion that Adaption may be too good. I have an umbral adaption nidus and umbral adaption chroma that make solo arbitration survival a joke. I'm not calling for a nerf per-se, but it would be very interesting to me if Adaption only affected damage done to shields. Perhaps if we had more mods that interacted in such a way (example: damage to your shields is "armored" by your energy pool) then we could get creative with it. Mods that make us interested to use shields could bring some balance to flimsy frames like mag, nyx, etc.

[KuramaKitsune]

Dude I put adaptation on literally all of my friends including hildy

 

[CypherKi]

Mag doesn't need it. Her 3 replenishes her and her allies shields. Nyx literally does not need it due to assimilate, and using a melee with a good distance combo and the operator as well can cover serious ground and keep up/outpace other Tenno who move uninhibited.

Ember also does not need this as with her flash accelerant build her and her teammates are more than capable of eliminating the enemy before they eliminate the tenno.

Also... Quick thinking.

[MonsterOfMyOwn]

8 hours ago, Ramflare said:

The problem: Mag, Nyx, Ember & several others are flimsy enough in sortie - arbitration levels where they can easily be killed in one shot. This is not fun, not challenging, just annoying and restrictive of player agency.

I agree with that and overshield don't really help a lot. Yes you have powers that can help not getting hit (Mag is really good all her kit, her 3rd with augment is golden), but even then you can go PoE, and you'll be 1-shot (or 2s TTBK) past some NPC level, which is frustrating, and as Arbitration is overrun by Inaros / CHroma 1337 that won't respawn you, it's not a good balance.

Shield gating for all ? I don't think it's the solution, but shield buff, yes please.

[bubbabenali]

vor 8 Stunden schrieb Void-Gunslinger:

I think we have something better.
 

  Unsichtbaren Inhalt anzeigen

https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Adaptation

 

Too slow, by the time you reach 90% the squishy frames are already dead. Rolling Guard on the other hand saves at least from ticking deaths... As long as you're not oneshoted. 

[(PSN)MrQuinine]

This a response to the OP. I like to reply in a vacuum so I apologize if any of this has been mentioned. 

Shield gating would be great for all frames, I feel, and would make shields more viable. I’ve been maining Hildryn for a few weeks and I find her a lot of fun. She’s tanky due to the extreme amount of shields she has, and gating gives her an emergency out. 

I’m not too certain about the copy/paste, however. Revenant has a kind of gating on his 2 that’s arguably OP, but I think a balance between the two would be the way to go. After all, if you’re going to get invulnerability when the shields bottom out, what’s the point of having more shields? Just throw on Fast Deflection and a Decaying dragon key and be invincible all the time. 

With that in mind, here are my suggestions:

1: equipping a Decaying Dragon Key removes shield gating. The whole point of the key is to make the run more dangerous anyway, and it’s not like we don’t have ways around that problem that don’t rely on being invincible.

2: tiered gating: when your shields hit zero, you get 2-3 seconds of invulnerability. But there’s another tier every 700 extra shields, and each “step” gives you another gate that grants 1-2 seconds of invulnerability. So, Harrow running around with 1655 shields would have a 1-2 second gate when his shields drop to 955, another one at 255, and the longer gate at zero shields. The point here is a brief moment of safety to disengage or reprioritize your targets, and a final warning that it is TIME TO STOP.

3: new shield effects! Nobody uses elemental resistance mods. But what if there were a suite of resistances, and meaningful ones, rolled into a mod that only applied to your shields? Like the Grineer resistance mod, which grants 80% damage resistance vs impact, fire, and blast to your shields? This would probably end up in the bin with the other resistance mods, but it’s a thought, and it could be expanded.

4: “on gate” effects! Mods that proc some sort of effect whenever a shield gate is reached, like an AOE knockdown or a speed boost. There could also be arcanes for this. 

5: corrupted shield mods! Perhaps one that reduces shield capacity but increases recharge rate and gate duration? One that massively increases total shields at the cost of recharge rate or a longer step to a gate? Still another could modify the amount of shields that have to be lost to trigger a gate, either positively or negatively.

There are more things that could be tied to shields. Gating would also make some frames a LOT stronger than they need to be (looking at you, Harrow and Revenant), but that doesn’t mean it’s a bad thing. Shields, however, are presently largely irrelevant for most frames in high-level content, and gating could be just the thing to mix up the meta. 

On a final note: I (personally) would like a more obvious tell when shields break. I rarely notice that my shields have broken until it’s too late. Give us some kind of more impactful effect when they break, like shards of energy flying away from our frame or something. This is probably due to my own issues, and yes I know the screen flashes red, but I need a little more than that. 

[(PSN)RageAgainst014]

Simple solution, add a passive mod slot slot to prime frames; the standard mod being that when your shields are depleted you release a knock back wave/stun sort of deal. Now, this would be a passive slot where this would come standard; however, you could change the mod to other forms of this mechanism

[Ramflare]

5 hours ago, (PS4)MrQuinine said:

This a response to the OP. I like to reply in a vacuum so I apologize if any of this has been mentioned. 

Shield gating would be great for all frames, I feel, and would make shields more viable. I’ve been maining Hildryn for a few weeks and I find her a lot of fun. She’s tanky due to the extreme amount of shields she has, and gating gives her an emergency out. 

I’m not too certain about the copy/paste, however. Revenant has a kind of gating on his 2 that’s arguably OP, but I think a balance between the two would be the way to go. After all, if you’re going to get invulnerability when the shields bottom out, what’s the point of having more shields? Just throw on Fast Deflection and a Decaying dragon key and be invincible all the time. 

With that in mind, here are my suggestions:

1: equipping a Decaying Dragon Key removes shield gating. The whole point of the key is to make the run more dangerous anyway, and it’s not like we don’t have ways around that problem that don’t rely on being invincible.

2: tiered gating: when your shields hit zero, you get 2-3 seconds of invulnerability. But there’s another tier every 700 extra shields, and each “step” gives you another gate that grants 1-2 seconds of invulnerability. So, Harrow running around with 1655 shields would have a 1-2 second gate when his shields drop to 955, another one at 255, and the longer gate at zero shields. The point here is a brief moment of safety to disengage or reprioritize your targets, and a final warning that it is TIME TO STOP.

3: new shield effects! Nobody uses elemental resistance mods. But what if there were a suite of resistances, and meaningful ones, rolled into a mod that only applied to your shields? Like the Grineer resistance mod, which grants 80% damage resistance vs impact, fire, and blast to your shields? This would probably end up in the bin with the other resistance mods, but it’s a thought, and it could be expanded.

4: “on gate” effects! Mods that proc some sort of effect whenever a shield gate is reached, like an AOE knockdown or a speed boost. There could also be arcanes for this. 

5: corrupted shield mods! Perhaps one that reduces shield capacity but increases recharge rate and gate duration? One that massively increases total shields at the cost of recharge rate or a longer step to a gate? Still another could modify the amount of shields that have to be lost to trigger a gate, either positively or negatively.

There are more things that could be tied to shields. Gating would also make some frames a LOT stronger than they need to be (looking at you, Harrow and Revenant), but that doesn’t mean it’s a bad thing. Shields, however, are presently largely irrelevant for most frames in high-level content, and gating could be just the thing to mix up the meta. 

On a final note: I (personally) would like a more obvious tell when shields break. I rarely notice that my shields have broken until it’s too late. Give us some kind of more impactful effect when they break, like shards of energy flying away from our frame or something. This is probably due to my own issues, and yes I know the screen flashes red, but I need a little more than that. 

I really like all these suggestions. The most important thing is that the problem gets fixed - there are certainly ways my solution could go poorly depending on how it's implemented but some form of gating would help a great deal so the more alternative ideas the better!

[Talonflight]

This.

[Chaemyerelis]

My equinox was one shot in day form yesterday by who knows what. Lol 🤷‍♂️

[(XBOX)EPOSSTYLE]

I think the problems lie in the fact a lot of frames are missing key components to the survival? Some frames need their augment mods dissolved into their base power sets giving much needed agency to fight back! 

Some frames cannot stop enemies from advancing and that  becomes a problem very quickly!

All frames should be able to manipulate their powers to a better degree than what's on offer!? After that has been satisfied then call it an augment mod!

(DE, "I HAVE SPOKEN")

[(XBOX)EPOSSTYLE]

There also needs to be a better damage indication pass...who know what u get hit by when u get hit and wind up flat on your back. Was it him, her, it, they, them, I don't know jus rez me bro!

[ikkabotz]

If you use mag's bubble correctly and stand between it and your enemies you can go very deep into enemy scaling. Yeah, if you get caught up in it you're still toast though.  

[Darkuhn]

I don’t have that kind of problem with my frames, my ember can solo sorties of any type(except energy reduction). My Mag can Disarm whole rooms with a quick double cast of her Bubble which lets her play any content. 

Regarding Arbitrations: those require team work for some frames to be useful and that is not a bad thing. If you want to take a squishier Frame make sure you have a support that can spread DR like Trin, Nezah, Baruuk, Oberon, Equinox and take weapons that can deal with these annoying drones in 1-2 shots. Hek even a Frost as support works wonders if nothing else is available.

It all depends on how well optimized your build is for the content you plan to play, only take Glasscannons where they can survive. 

Regarding shield gate: this won’t help those frames nearly as much as you think, they don’t have the tools to get out of the spot that melted their shields in the 1 second window you proposed. So it would be: BAM shield is gone -> what happened? Why am I invulnerable? -> BAM DEAD/DOWNED

Not really a difference to BAM DEAD/DOWNED

Edited May 16, 2019 by Darkuhn

[(PSN)RenovaKunumaru]

On 2019-05-12 at 5:02 PM, Ramflare said:

Please, share your thoughts.

I think it's your build man.

I want to post my builds but I'm afraid that they'll get mainstreamed and nerfed.

With that in mind, I wouldn't mind helping you initiate a push to have some of the inferior frames get better damage reduction properties but we need to realize that the problem isn't the frame...it's DEs refusal to put balance first.

Enemies shouldn't have infinite scaling damage, they should have a cap.

The difficulity in in facing enemies shouldn't be a result of their armor value but a measure of their mechanics and their sheer number.

Finally, Warframe powers need to be toned down. There's no teamwork stemmed from having self sufficient frames that can instantly melt an entire map at the push of a button. Actually, there isn't much of a game with that in mind.

[(PSN)BattleCry1791]

On 2019-05-12 at 11:17 PM, KuramaKitsune said:

Yeah but we don't want to turn this into World of Warcraft where we have HP and shields values in the hundreds of thousands

 

There's an easy way to solve.  Can't throw on pure shield and health unless it's a vigor mod.  Would only apply to Redirection and Vitality...all versions current an future.