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Feedback on future "wolves" (please don't nerf them into the ground)


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14 minutes ago, Eklectus said:

And each time he dropped his rarest parts and then your party thanked you and you all lived happily ever after. I apologize if I'm no longer sounding serious about this conversation, but that's because I'm not. This entire time, the two of you have been telling me these "amazing" stories of how you can easily kill him with just about anything and yet even the devs admit they went overboard with him. How about you post one of these builds you're talking about so those of us who see him as a ridiculous bullet sponge can finally be convinced that he's just so easy?

I concur, the wolf before his nerfs and the the crazy scaling with a full squad their is no way those subpar weapons would be killing the wolf so easily and giving his parts away like candy. Like I said in a previous post me and a group of friends on hydron with some of these non meta weapons even mostly funny modded because of our MR took atleast 15 minutes of him sponging up bullets. A well built Titania would do some solid damage to the wolf I will admit that but like you said as well DE admitted themselves they went way overboard with the Wolf and i'm glad they admitted it! Now when my group all had some sort of weapon purely to kill him he went down in no time at all even with 4 of us like any other field boss but that took up a slot just on the off chance he spawned and it was less effective then other choices we could have made at any point in time. Anyone saying that they could kill the original wolf quickly with some off meta stuff that isn't built for rad/Crit and no buffs is just lying or downplaying it. And this is coming from a 5 year vet with really good aim getting those headshots who knows the mechanics of the game, so my word is the truth! (So is DE's who admitted this is essentially the truth as well...)

Edited by (XB1)Zweimander
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2 minutes ago, (XB1)Zweimander said:

I concur, the wolf before his nerfs and the the crazy scaling with a full squad their is no way those subpar weapons would be killing the wolf so easily and giving his parts away like candy. Like I said in a previous post me and a group of friends on hydron with some of these non meta weapons even mostly funny modded because of our MR took atleast 15 minutes of him sponging up bullets. A well built Titania would did do some damage to the wolf I will admit that but like you said as well DE admitted themselves they went way overboard with the Wolf and i'm glad they admitted it! Now when my group all had some sort of weapon purely to kill him he went down in no time at all even with 4 of us like any other field boss but that took up a slot just on the off chance he spawned and it was less effective then other choices we could have made at any point in time. Anyone saying that they could kill the original wolf quickly with some off meta stuff that isn't built for rad/Crit and no buffs is just lying or downplaying it. And this is coming from a 5 year vet with really good aim getting those headshots who knows the mechanics of the game, so my word is the truth! (So is DE's who admitted this is essentially the truth as well...)

Nah dude, you just suck at the game. @DatDarkOne himself said so.

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6 minutes ago, Eklectus said:

Nah dude, you just suck at the game. @DatDarkOne himself said so.

Know what your right I must be a total scrub for not making a specific build to kill just the wolf when I easily could have but refused to play into the stupid game of a random RNG encounter with the Sponge of AWOOOOO six. I should just give up on the game and delete it from my Xbox for being such a scrub... How dare I want to play with the things I want and not carry specific gear to kill such an enemy who spawns out of nowhere! (Sarcasm aside his arguments are just trying to avoid the truth of the wolf and he is the one that sucks at the game, am I right or am I right. I honestly wish a forum moderator would lock this thread down already because I can feel a cancerous growth growing on my official warframe veteran badge and it can only be cured by the salty tears of scrubs being silenced.)

Edited by (XB1)Zweimander
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20 minutes ago, Eklectus said:

Or, and hear me out here, I'm already using gear and builds that work for me in literally every piece of content and have no reason to change them for a single encounter. But hey, if you're gonna respond with "just figure it out for yourself" when asked for proof of your true stories working, I'm more than content with calling bullS#&$ on everything you told me so far.

 

19 minutes ago, (XB1)Zweimander said:

A well built Titania would did do some damage to the wolf I will admit that

Interesting that I said i used Titania isn't it.  

19 minutes ago, (XB1)Zweimander said:

Anyone saying that they could kill the original wolf quickly with some off meta stuff that isn't built for rad/Crit and no buffs is just lying or downplaying it.

Answer this.  Why isn't using Garuda and her 2(Blood Alter) ever considered meta when it's one of the few skills that completely stops the invulnerable Fugitives and leaves you free to concentrate on fighting Wolf?  Wouldn't this be considered as off meta (because it's not used by the masses) even though it works extremely well.  Or That You can magnetize the Fugitives that is near Wolf so the bullets from magnetize also effect Wolf.  Would that also be considered off meta because it's also not used as much but also quite effective. 

Just because something isn't part of the "Known META" doesn't mean that it doesn't work.  How in the world do you guys think meta even developes in the first place?  It doesn't just magically drop out of the sky.  It comes from people experimenting with off meta stuff and out of the box thinking to see what works and why.  

Back when Wolf first came out, I was one of the first people to post on the forums about the weakspot on his eye.  That changed after he got his mask from Alad V. 

I've always been a proponent for understanding the why something works instead of just blindly following the "meta" of someone else.  

Edit: Amazing.  Now someone is trying to put the words in my mouth by saying that I'm calling people "scrubs"  LOL.  Well, if you fall for that and honestly feel that way about yourself, it's not my fault.  😄  

Edited by DatDarkOne
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Well, first of all, my Garuda's altar duration is only 6 seconds. Secondly, disabling fugitives isn't meta when you still have to spend the rest of your time whaling away at millions of EHP. As for the rest of what you said:

 

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29 minutes ago, DatDarkOne said:

Answer this.  Why isn't using Garuda and her 2(Blood Alter) ever considered meta when it's one of the few skills that completely stops the invulnerable Fugitives and leaves you free to concentrate on fighting Wolf?  Wouldn't this be considered as off meta (because it's not used by the masses) even though it works extremely well.  Or That You can magnetize the Fugitives that is near Wolf so the bullets from magnetize also effect Wolf.  Would that also be considered off meta because it's also not used as much but also quite effective. 

Okay so you disable the old wolfs minions, what after that then? Spend your time eating away at the wolf for the next 10-15 or even 20 minutes depending on your squads weapon composition at the time because he was immune to all abilities himself? If you played Rhino instead of Garuda you could CC the fugitives, give yourself a weapon damage buff and be essentially invincible which is far better so yes it is off meta. If the frame had no weapon damage buffs and you had no Rad/Crit weapon to deal with the wolf on anyone in your squad it was still a slog to go through and most would agree with me on this point i'm sure. And Rhino was not even the best choice either Chroma would of been even better but he was still considered more meta then Garuda since he fit the bill everything you needed to kill him in one kit.

And for the record never directly said you were calling people scrubs and I know for a fact I am not one with so much experience under my belt, I was just saying that because that is what it feels like you were saying to most the people you replied to and wanted to be real about what I personally felt. your more condescending then I am, and that takes some dedication. Even I am willing to admit the old wolf was way to strong even with my stance on us needing more difficult content because he had way to much going for him, I would of been fine with reduced ability damage, duration and resistance to status but not full immunity as that would of been far more fair. Their is difficult and then their is tedium, the wolf was nothing more then Tedious and he deserved to be brought down a peg to be more like the other assassins. He was a field boss and not something you could choose to fight whenever you wanted like an Eidolon which also forced you to change your stuff up a lil as well. I would of been more open to his older strength somewhat if you could choose to fight him right off the bat back then but even then he was still a bit to strong for most the community to handle effectively as a random encounter.

Edited by (XB1)Zweimander
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5 hours ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

I do. That's why I'm not grousing about the wolf. 😉

This topic is about not nerfing future things like Wolf.  You're arguing that he shouldn't have been nerfed.  He got nerfed.  Deal with it.

1 hour ago, Eklectus said:

Ah, so you did precisely nothing while your team took him down. Gotcha.

To be fair, Titania could be quite effective against him I would think.

As for the Wolf.  Yeah we could carry weapons and use frames that we don't like and aren't nearly as effective versus other content in order to be prepared for him at all times.  However, he's a 2-6% spawn chance.  Most people aren't going to change a quarter of their build for something that might happen one in twenty games that they can just ignore and finish the mission.

New players?  They legit aren't going to have anything that can touch this guy the way he was/is.  Even the level 30 version is going to be an absolute nightmare for them with their latos and parises.  He started out way overtuned.  I understand DE probably did it to give players a real challenge.  I also understand that he was intended from the beginning to be an assassin encounter.  The nerfs down to size were baked into the cookie from day one.  Granted, he doesn't have ability cancelling or fast moves like the Stalker, or janky moves and cancelling like the Harvester, Flanking and multiple weapons and CCs like the G3, or enemy resurrection and AoE deathstorms like the Juggernaut, so he has pups of flaming doom and might be a bit tankier than those (maybe similar to Jugg) when all is said and done.  A bit tankier.  Not hundreds of times.

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Uh guys, this argument isn't really going anywhere.

The simple basis is that the Wolf's design, despite being fully beatable by a fair variety of loadouts, suffers due to the awkward scaling issue he has on top of his nature of being an invading boss which compounds the core issue of how it limits the general playstyle in an odd fashion and ramps up the needed damage at an alarming rate. Essentially the issue isn't that people can beat him, its if they even want to bother because he's as mechanically shallow as a puddle.

There's absolutely no reason for you two to be arguing like this when 90% of the debate comes from bad boss design rather than anything on the player-input side of the design. Because in the end whether you kill him in 5 seconds or 30 minutes he's just not designed in an interesting fashion that makes anyone really want to deal with him. You can agree to disagree you know.

Note: Directed at Dat and Eklectus

 

Edited by Aldain
Posts came before I was done.
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6 minutes ago, Vitalis_Inamorta said:

To be fair, Titania could be quite effective against him I would think.

Except I wasn't talking about Titania. Unless by: 

Quote

How is doing this any different than how I've beat down the Wolf multiple times using my standard loadout of Daikyu, AkBolto Prime, Venka Prime/Tatsu.  Or weapons like Supra vandal, Fusalai, Hema, and Garuda's Claws for when I'm not using Ivara.

He meant he just used Titania the entire time.

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2 minutes ago, Aldain said:

 Because in the end whether you kill him in 5 seconds or 30 minutes he's just not designed in an interesting fashion that makes anyone really want to deal with him.

Tyl Regor for Bossident.  I'd deal with him any day of the week.

Whoever designed him and his character and his fight, you guys are bosses too.

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I'm not even sure where this back and forth comes from(it happens in plenty of "wolf" threads).  None of it really addresses the core points of the way the boss comes about.

He's lazy and unpolished.  A basic, telegraphed(one to mitigate his ranged weakness, other to initiate his melee strength), ultra high EHP, high armor, immune to effects boss.  He's the cookie cutter yawnfest of a bygone era.

When a yawning derp from the past proved less than interesting, he got invulnerable adds with don't step in ground AE that demand to be CC'd.  Cripes, what a lazy trope.  Your four person team is best comprised of a tank, healer, and two DPS, one with CC and preferably one more "pure".  Any of this look familiar?

As if that's not enough, he's got a weakness loophole(radiation), and the adds demand CC mitigation.  He might as well be a dragon that the DPS stands beside so they don't get hit by the front and rear cleaves, plus the breath.  Maybe we'll do that next.

Or maybe, for the love of progress, we can do something different.  Maybe we can use all of our abilities and effects, but have an enemy that is difficult when faced with our actual arsenal.  There's nothing inherently wrong with having to carry a weapon appropriate to your rank, but there is something very wrong with a couple month long event necessitating the avoidance of some of the arsenal.

For proof that this is not only possible, but possible by the minds at DE development, the perennial stalker can be dangerous to some configurations, but is largely killable.  His immunities can be overcome by gameplay means, he mitigates our most powerful attacks but simultanously can be affected by them if they are used with thought.  And he does this without being a ludicrous bullet sponge.  Bring any weapons and frames you like, understand your operator, and move intelligently and you can beat him with anything.  Stand still and take him in the face and he'll destroy anything that isn't a complete overgearing(overgearing the wolf has the same effect, running a max rad damage style setup that's tanky will stand in his face and eat him in about a minute on lower level stuff).

Now I'm not saying that he needs to be identical to the stalker, but the stalker points out means to allow all of our arsenal to be used while simultanously taking steps to make all of it able to be mitigated, and he does this without blanket, arbitrary immunity and staggering EHP.

So....the wolf is a melee tank.Let's make one that doesn't have to be a mindless sponge in order to still be what he is. 

For him, he could regen HP, perhaps not at all when taking damage, but quickly when damage stops.  His armor could be high, but destroyable, and let's make that regen too---no red health bar for long!  Make his health bar resistant to things that destroy armor(corrosive, for example), but give it weakness to things that can't be readily obtained with corrosive(let's say gas, and if we're really fancy let's say gas at over ten yards to guarantee no melee armor strip).  If we do this, he can have significantly less HP, but still be very tough.  It doesn't really necessitate specific weapons or frames, instead it emphasizes balance and weapon switching with a versatile loadout---obtainable at any level, with any frame.

His attacks have a good telegraph and function well for his tanking.  His charge/vortex effect works well to generate the melee range he wants, but his ranged throw, however, just isn't very dangerous.  Rather than more damage, however, let's make it magnetic damage and a disarm that "sticks" to the weapon it disarms, dropping at the wolfs' feet when the hammer returns to him.  Now we can let him be affected by abilities because he has the means to combat shields and energy regen, while simultaneously defending against his weapon switching weakness---either move well or take the melee risk to get back into the game!

So there we have it, virtually the same boss, but suddenly less limiting and more thought provoking.  Challenging only if handled poorly, but not wading through thousands of bullets solely because of bad luck in scaling versus weapon ranks.

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3 minutes ago, Thrymm said:

Now we can let him be affected by abilities because he has the means to combat shields and energy regen

Honestly I never figured out why instead of ability immunity DE didn't go with ability RESISTANCE instead, like takes X% less damage from Warframe abilities and have it stack up if relied upon for too long (So an energy pizza Mesa couldn't cheese it) and have the resistance go down by dealing weapon damage, like a push and pull mechanic that rewards using a mix of ALL types of combat.

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25 minutes ago, (XB1)Zweimander said:

And for the record never directly said you were calling people scrubs and I know for a fact I am not one with so much experience under my belt, I was just saying that because that is what it feels like you were saying to most the people you replied to and wanted to be real about what I personally felt. your more condescending then I am, and that takes some dedication. Even I am willing to admit the old wolf was way to strong even with my stance on us needing more difficult content because he had way to much going for him, I would of been fine with reduced ability damage, duration and resistance to status but not full immunity as that would of been far more fair. Their is difficult and then their is tedium, the wolf was nothing more then Tedious and he deserved to be brought down a peg to be more like the other assassins. He was a field boss and not something you could choose to fight whenever you wanted like an Eidolan which also forced you to change your stuff up a lil as well. I would of been more open to his older strength somewhat if you could choose to fight him right off the bat back then but even then he was still a bit to strong for most the community to handle effectively as a random encounter.

My thing is that if you like playing with whatever gear you like to use, then you should take accountability for that decision should a situation come up where that gear isn't optimal.  wolf could have stayed in his state before the nerf or not and it wouldn't have mattered to me.  My only problem with the whole thing was the horrible drop chance. 

I will admit that I got extremely lucky to have fought him as many times as I did.  It's helped me to see and develop tactics to use against him regardless of what I or my team were using.  That's something I just like to do.  Find out how something works and figure out as many ways to do it in as stylish a way as possible.  😄  

8 minutes ago, Aldain said:

Honestly I never figured out why instead of ability immunity DE didn't go with ability RESISTANCE instead, like takes X% less damage from Warframe abilities and have it stack up if relied upon for too long (So an energy pizza Mesa couldn't cheese it) and have the resistance go down by dealing weapon damage, like a push and pull mechanic that rewards using a mix of ALL types of combat.

I think the answer to that one might be in sleep/blind and Covert Lethality.  I'm pretty sure there are some other abilities that would have made him far easier even with just resistance instead of full immunity.  

Edited by DatDarkOne
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Just now, DatDarkOne said:

I think the answer to that one might be in sleep/blind and Covert Lethality.  I'm pretty sure there are some other abilities that would have made him far easier even with just resistance instead of full immunity.  

Well crowd control immunity isn't ability immunity but I suppose I should have been more clear in that regard.

I was more talking damage dealing abilities, though I suppose CC could also be enabled but with anti-cheese mechanics, like say Excal's blind could cause the boss to flail around but not be open to finishers for example.

Though Trinity's abilities can cause big issues due to how they work too...so overall this is just late night idea spitballing from me.

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26 minutes ago, Aldain said:

Uh guys, this argument isn't really going anywhere.

The simple basis is that the Wolf's design, despite being fully beatable by a fair variety of loadouts, suffers due to the awkward scaling issue he has on top of his nature of being an invading boss which compounds the core issue of how it limits the general playstyle in an odd fashion and ramps up the needed damage at an alarming rate. Essentially the issue isn't that people can beat him, its if they even want to bother because he's as mechanically shallow as a puddle.

There's absolutely no reason for you two to be arguing like this when 90% of the debate comes from bad boss design rather than anything on the player-input side of the design. Because in the end whether you kill him in 5 seconds or 30 minutes he's just not designed in an interesting fashion that makes anyone really want to deal with him. You can agree to disagree you know.

Note: Directed at Dat and Eklectus

 

I'll be honest and say I shouldn't of gotten involved in the arguments for medical reasons that I wont say, but needless to say it makes me very headstrong and stubborn about my beliefs and I cant hold it back sometimes especially when my meds aren't at their strongest and something triggers a response from me. It boils down to what you said about it being bad and lazy boss design compared to the actual interesting figth's like Vay Hek who is somewhat tanky and makes you have time your attacks as a trade off for not being a total bullet sponge. I honestly have quite the headache from all the thoughts swirling in my head at the moment. And I do apologize for any brash things I might of said before but a voice of reason brought me back to normal for the most part so I should be fine. I'll just leave things be and avoid posting on this thread for my own health at this point honestly, better for everyone that way XD

Edited by (XB1)Zweimander
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7 minutes ago, Thrymm said:

Any of this look familiar? 

Buh-but muh League!

...That I haven't played for years.

I mean, D&D used to do that too.  Not sure if they still do.  Key word, used.

As for Wolf, I think my ideal boss would bring something to the table to kill everyone, but be interactive about it.  We already have ability cancelling on two bosses, so how about means of working around it?  Say for instance, for invisible frames the Wolf deploys a drone over 2 seconds, and once it's up it gives him vision on invis frames unless they shoot it down, in which case Wolf does a quick attack at their last location, then a bit of evasion tactics to reposition himself away, and then tries again with the drone.

Damage tank frames?  Pup napalm attacks apply stacks of flat damage vulnerability (say 10% per stack for a quick guess) that allows that percentage of incoming damage to ignore abilities and armor of the frame in question.  So yes, Rhino, Nezha, Trinity, and company need to be wary of those flaming doom-bombs too, though maybe not as paranoid as, say, Banshee.

CC?  How about a progressive buffer that fills up and gives, say, ten second of CC immunity after every 5 seconds or so of being hard CC'd?  And when the Wolf gets the immunity, it shares to the pups who wouldn't have it otherwise.

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2 minutes ago, Vitalis_Inamorta said:

Buh-but muh League!

...That I haven't played for years.

I mean, D&D used to do that too.  Not sure if they still do.  Key word, used.

As for Wolf, I think my ideal boss would bring something to the table to kill everyone, but be interactive about it.  We already have ability cancelling on two bosses, so how about means of working around it?  Say for instance, for invisible frames the Wolf deploys a drone over 2 seconds, and once it's up it gives him vision on invis frames unless they shoot it down, in which case Wolf does a quick attack at their last location, then a bit of evasion tactics to reposition himself away, and then tries again with the drone.

Damage tank frames?  Pup napalm attacks apply stacks of flat damage vulnerability (say 10% per stack for a quick guess) that allows that percentage of incoming damage to ignore abilities and armor of the frame in question.  So yes, Rhino, Nezha, Trinity, and company need to be wary of those flaming doom-bombs too, though maybe not as paranoid as, say, Banshee.

CC?  How about a progressive buffer that fills up and gives, say, ten second of CC immunity after every 5 seconds or so of being hard CC'd?  And when the Wolf gets the immunity, it shares to the pups who wouldn't have it otherwise.

I like each of those ideas, and think they would be cool to have on a boss.  Thing is that I honestly think the forum would go into conniption fits if those were to be added or a thing.  

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4 minutes ago, DatDarkOne said:

Thing is that I honestly think the forum would go into conniption fits if those were to be added or a thing.

I'm not sure it could go over much worse than the divide caused by our favorite sandbag boss personally.

But the resistance buildup is something I agree with, mainly because it would give CC frames a bit more of an actual...well reason to exist in boss fights. I think it could also extend to Status procs as well, like after suffering a status proc the enemy would be immune to that status for a certain amount of time (longer for things like Viral/Toxin/Slash, shorter for things like Impact/Puncture for example) which would also help get away from the "Crit or GTFO" problem that many bosses currently have right now.

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As someone who can decimate the Wolf handily, I'll say that yes he's a massive step back in their boss design.

No invulnerability phases thankfully, but the massive health pool and various power/status invulnerabilities are pretty bad.

However, they had to do this because, frankly the way our powers work, the scaling of some frames (Hello Chroma, Saryn, etc.) and how damage and armour are calculated . These things needs a huge overhaul. Thankfully they've said they're hoping to this year and I look forward to it as an end to them having to design encounters like the Wolf if nothing else.

Edited by KokoroWish
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5 hours ago, DatDarkOne said:

My thing is that if you like playing with whatever gear you like to use, then you should take accountability for that decision should a situation come up where that gear isn't optimal. 

The problem is that Wolf wasn't "a situation." He was "all of the situations." He could show up on any mission at any level regardless of your choice... But only some of the time. I guess maybe not in the Plains and the Vallis, but that's a fraction of content. And he did this for four months. Preparing for the Wolf would involve dedicating a weapons slot constantly, on all missions, regardless of actual merit for an even that's probably not going to happen most of the time. It's the epitome of poor design. Ridiculous bullet sponge gimmick bosses have no business spawning as Assassins. Giving Wolf his own separate node at the end was the right way to go about it, and should have been the way to handle him from the start. Treat him like an Accolyte and let people both choose to pursue him directly or choose to avoid him deliberately.

Wolf's design is utter donkey, but that puts him on par with most other bosses in this game. That's not the issue. The issue is his intrusive nature as an Assassin, and I sincerely hope they don't do that again.

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Could we get gear that would allow play with vechiles in Plains of Eidolon and Orb Vallis and future?

It could work like scanners, instead scanning it load virus that force vechile to ground and pilots out to open. 

Possible name could be "System Scanner", grafted in dojo, Tenno Lab.

Flying Vechiles would work same as Tusk Dargy, Coildrive different

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