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Feedback on future "wolves" (please don't nerf them into the ground)

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8 hours ago, Eklectus said:

Obviously I'm going to base my opinion of the wolf on my opinion of fun. I'm playing the game because I want to have fun, after all. However, you seem to be missing the point yet again. Yes, I can alter my loadout for the slight chance I'll have to fight a ridiculous bullet sponge on a mission that should've taken 5 mins tops. But why the hell would I do that? You seem to be stuck on this idea of adapting to a situation, while suggesting we all purchase volcano insurance for every single mission we attempt. Look at the encounter rates when he was first introduced. A majority of players didn't even see the wolf once, before the rates were increased. I think I'm going to stick to my preferred weapons and just restart a mission once a month. Saves me a headache.

Oh, yes, your opinion of fun is the only one that matters, of course. Except that it's not, and others have other, different opinions. 

Now let's see, you claim that you're playing the game, but at the same time you are saying "not that part".

By flat refusing to adapt to the game, you negate all chance of not having a difficult time when he shows up. Then you complain about the difficulties you are having with this enemy, who spawned in a predictable way. You will claim "but you never know what mission he will show up in so you can't predict his appearance" to which I respond "but I can tell you that taking his fixed RNG chance and the law of large numbers it meant that I knew I'd be seeing him quite a bit so not being able to deal with him would have been my own fault". 

And so for me it was a fight that often took about 5 minutes tops. The best part of it is that the weapons I took for killing the wolf worked equally well on the rest of the enemies so I was in no way crippling myself by taking one good weapon on any run. I was able to play as normal and the only difference is that the damage numbers had that little radiation symbol next to them a bit more often. 

And yeah I'm stuck on "I adapted and had a blast, you refused and are complaining" because the two seem indelibly linked. You can pretend that they aren't, but it means that whenever the game changes (which seems to be fairly often) you are probably going to have a worse and worse time. Just saying. 

7 hours ago, DatDarkOne said:

Actually, in almost every case I was the main one doing damage to Wolf each time and the one to get the kill on him while also having the most damage dealt at End mission stats.   Like I said earlier, it's a difference between copying a youtube build and KNOWING why it works.  I never needed to change my builds because they still work with my playstyle even against Wolf

I think that you hit the nail on the head here. So many people have claimed to have godlike builds on godlike weapons that it's apparent that they really haven't got a clue as to what they are doing in this game. Many seem to get both their builds and their overly entitled whining from YouTube and are unable to process any other form of input. They don't read what they're responding to, can't grasp what is happening in the game when they go up against a new enemy that doesn't just die, and don't take any personal responsibility for the situations they put themselves in. 

 

7 hours ago, Eklectus said:

Or, and hear me out here, I'm already using gear and builds that work for me in literally every piece of content and have no reason to change them for a single encounter.

Except for the rather obvious fact that they apparently didn't work on every piece of content. 

The Wolf sends his regards and a gentle reminder that he's still out there, and will return at some vague point in the future. He probably looks forward to seeing you then, and hopefully he'll bring along some new friends who will also challenge us in new ways. 

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Posted (edited)

Nah. I plan on dealing with him the same way I deal with Lotus changing the mission parameters. 

Edited by Eklectus
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8 hours ago, Vitalis_Inamorta said:

This topic is about not nerfing future things like Wolf.  You're arguing that he shouldn't have been nerfed.  He got nerfed.  Deal with it.

No just pointing out that he didn't really need to be nerfed in the first place. I'm of the opinion that that players should prepare for what they may face. The thread is full of people insisting that they chose to not prepare in any way, and the same group complains vehemently about the wolf being unkillable in a reasonable amount of time. 

Had they applied their creativity into finding ways to deal with the wolf, instead of excuses for not doing so, there'd have been a lot less needing to abandon the mission, and a lot more dead wolves. 

As an example:

8 hours ago, Eklectus said:

Well, first of all, my Garuda's altar duration is only 6 seconds. Secondly, disabling fugitives isn't meta when you still have to spend the rest of your time whaling away at millions of EHP. As for the rest of what you said:

Here's someone who seems to be pretending that their Garuda's build is immutable, and that blood altar is Garuda's only ability. 

8 hours ago, (XB1)Zweimander said:

Okay so you disable the old wolfs minions, what after that then? Spend your time eating away at the wolf for the next 10-15 or even 20 minutes depending on your squads weapon composition at the time because he was immune to all abilities himself?

Here's another who seems to think that Garuda's 1 doesn't exist or perhaps won't work on the Wolf. 

Garuda has the ability to build up tens of millions of potential damage when provided with conveniently immortal and hard hitting enemies. Even with the built in damage resistance the wolf has, Garuda is going to be able to do more damage in a single shot than most people would begin to imagine. 

 

Look let's get it all out in the open. People have complained about lack of difficulty for a long time. People have complained that periodic invulnerablilty for a long time. People have vocally defended power creep and complained about nerfs for a long time. 

It looks like the wolf was made the way he was in order to try and appease those complaints. It looks like DE tried to tie his EHP to the amount of damage we could be expected to deliver. If that's right then he was intended to be a "tough" enemy who would take a bit of effort to kill. Giving him a single armour and health type was probably meant to make the fight easier, as it meant that each of us could take just a single weapon that was suitable for the fight and gotten it all done with minimal fuss. 

But some players chose to refuse to take any suitable weapons, others chose to insist that their choice of weapons was suitable in the face of all evidence to the contrary. Many chose to use the single most popular meta in the game, the leech meta, with no fully leveled gear and had no significant way to help contribute to the fight, choosing instead to abandon their squad to their fate after the Wolf spawned. 

Yeah DE miscalculated. So did many players. Some of us sucked it up and made the power creep work for us so we could deal with the situation we faced. Others decided that with no cheese in easy reach, there could only be whine.

They're the ones that didn't deal with it. 

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Sorta agree, wished he stayed as tanky as he was but only if he wasn't completely immune to abilities and status. And by extension most other enemies like that are also not fun to fight.

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10 hours ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

-snip-

Dude you really need to work on making your arguments shorter, especially considering you haven’t properly changed your argument in response to your opponents at all. People have clearly been saying “I don’t want to permanently restrict my weapon choice in a slot” since page one, but your response has consistently been along the lines of “play how I think the game should be played or you don’t deserve to enjoy yourself”. You and others have also been consistently saying that the Wolf practically commits seppuku in front of all of your loadouts, but I have yet to see an actual build described other than “this single warframe is good”, which is an even bigger restriction than what weapons you bring. 

You say that people “sucked it up” in response to DE miscalculating on Wolf. I don’t want to play a game if I have to “suck it up” to enjoy it. That’s something you do when you don’t have any other options. Video games are designed 100% for player enjoyment, and if you have to force yourself to work through unenjoyable content, you’re missing the point of a video game. DE should absolutely be changing Wolf if your argument amounts to “he’s bad but i’d rather endure the bad design and act like everyone else is inferior to me, instead of just asking for better design that is enjoyable for more people”.

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Posted (edited)
12 hours ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

The Wolf sends his regards and a gentle reminder that he's still out there, and will return at some vague point in the future. He probably looks forward to seeing you then, and hopefully he'll bring along some new friends who will also challenge us in new ways. 

Yeah, "bring rad crit" really challenges me in a new way.

I beat the crap out of him during S1, yeah.  Fastest kill was 9 seconds for level 70.  But if anybody thinks people are gonna bring rad crit gear everywhere on the tiny off chance he shows back up, nah.

Edited by (PS4)BenHeisennberg
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44 minutes ago, YUNoJump said:

Dude you really need to work on making your arguments shorter, especially considering you haven’t properly changed your argument in response to your opponents at all. People have clearly been saying “I don’t want to permanently restrict my weapon choice in a slot” since page one, but your response has consistently been along the lines of “play how I think the game should be played or you don’t deserve to enjoy yourself”.

Nonsense. And I haven't changed because the people I've responded to have consistently spouted the same rubbish is slightly different formats. My argument has been that no single weaponslot was ever restricted. We were able to mix and match as needed to face the wolf. 

People have repeatedly said they are not willing to change how they play at all, despite the game changing about them. I am not the one who is changing the way we need to play if we expect to be able to take on the enemies, the game has literally done that. The whiners we have here are demanding that the game adapt to suit their playstyle so that they can maintain their power fantasy. That's a pretty ridiculous demand. 

51 minutes ago, YUNoJump said:

You and others have also been consistently saying that the Wolf practically commits seppuku in front of all of your loadouts, but I have yet to see an actual build described other than “this single warframe is good”, which is an even bigger restriction than what weapons you bring. 

Perhaps open your eyes when reading the posts you respond to? Multiple warframes have been described as viable for various reasons, multiple weapons, in multiple slots. There's a reason why no single build has been offered here, and that's because no single build is needed. (That ties back to the whole "no single weaponslot has been restricted" part, you see?) This isn't youtube where we claim that 'this "one build" is the very best and all you'll ever need'. 

 

55 minutes ago, YUNoJump said:

You say that people “sucked it up” in response to DE miscalculating on Wolf. I don’t want to play a game if I have to “suck it up” to enjoy it.

You know what the obvious response to this part is? Well other than laughter and saying "so don't play"? It's that fun is subjective, and we're all different. Some people think that cheesing their way through the game and never facing a challenge and then whining about the lack of challenge is fun. The wolf didn't care, so apparently he's not fun for some folks. Others accept that not everything needs to be super easy, and that challenging situations can arise and still be fun, so the wolf wasn't a problem for them. Who are you to tell them that it's not fun? 

44 minutes ago, (PS4)BenHeisennberg said:

Yeah, "bring rad crit" really challenges me in a new way.

I beat the crap out of him during S1, yeah.  Fastest kill was 9 seconds for level 70.  But if anybody thinks people are gonna bring rad crit gear everywhere on the tiny off chance he shows back up, nah.

Hey, don't feel bad. I found tying my shoes properly challenging for years. It gets easier with practice. 

I agree with you. As long as there's a tiny chance, it won't be a good idea to take rad crit only for him. Taking it because it's a good way to decimate the majority of the enemies on the starchart on the other hand is a pretty darned good reason to bring anything most places. 😉

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3 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

I agree with you. As long as there's a tiny chance, it won't be a good idea to take rad crit only for him. Taking it because it's a good way to decimate the majority of the enemies on the starchart on the other hand is a pretty darned good reason to bring anything most places. 😉

Great, so "take the Atterax" is now "take the Paracesis."

How about I take a weapon I like, such as the Mios, and tap the abort button when I get an enemy that nearly ignores all but a specific damage method?

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12 minutes ago, (PS4)BenHeisennberg said:

Great, so "take the Atterax" is now "take the Paracesis."

How about I take a weapon I like, such as the Mios, and tap the abort button when I get an enemy that nearly ignores all but a specific damage method?

You've always been free to do that. Many people did. Of course it is probably going to be affecting your ability to convince yourself that your power fantasy is real, if you have to tuck tail and run every time a specific enemy shows up. Which would probably lead a lot of people to show up and try to bluster and whine in equal amounts and say that they are not having fun because they keep having to run away from an enemy that they choose not to prepare for. 

And that in turn will probably lead to other, truly horrible people, who seem to not care about other people's personal power fantasies showing up and pointing out that we have multiple viable ways to easily defeat that enemy in a reasonable amount of time, and that it's the players own fault for just refusing to adapt to the situation. 😇

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Just now, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

You've always been free to do that. Many people did. Of course it is probably going to be affecting your ability to convince yourself that your power fantasy is real, if you have to tuck tail and run every time a specific enemy shows up. Which would probably lead a lot of people to show up and try to bluster and whine in equal amounts and say that they are not having fun because they keep having to run away from an enemy that they choose not to prepare for. 

And that in turn will probably lead to other, truly horrible people, who seem to not care about other people's personal power fantasies showing up and pointing out that we have multiple viable ways to easily defeat that enemy in a reasonable amount of time, and that it's the players own fault for just refusing to adapt to the situation. 😇

Show me a non-rad crit method (that isn't Excalibur) that kills the Wolf in less than 5 minutes.  I carry weapons around that decimate level 200s, far above the power level of just about all missions.  The Wolf isn't "even tougher" by having an off button for those damage types.

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Posted (edited)
53 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Nonsense. And I haven't changed because the people I've responded to have consistently spouted the same rubbish is slightly different formats. My argument has been that no single weaponslot was ever restricted. We were able to mix and match as needed to face the wolf. 

If you are choosing to specifically bring a weapon that is viable against the Wolf, rather than any other weapon, then that is the objective definition of restricted. Just because it’s not one single weapon doesn’t mean that it’s the same as total freedom. A status weapon in that slot is almost entirely useless against the Wolf, for instance.

53 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Perhaps open your eyes when reading the posts you respond to? Multiple warframes have been described as viable for various reasons, multiple weapons, in multiple slots. There's a reason why no single build has been offered here, and that's because no single build is needed.

Ok you’re right, there isn’t a “single warframe”. There is a selection of warframes, smaller compared to the entire pool. See my previous point that it is an objective restriction. I don’t want to play those specific frames all the time, that’s even worse than just a weapon because then my entire play style is affected.

53 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

You know what the obvious response to this part is? Well other than laughter and saying "so don't play"? It's that fun is subjective, and we're all different. Some people think that cheesing their way through the game and never facing a challenge and then whining about the lack of challenge is fun. The wolf didn't care, so apparently he's not fun for some folks. Others accept that not everything needs to be super easy, and that challenging situations can arise and still be fun, so the wolf wasn't a problem for them. Who are you to tell them that it's not fun? 

Hey “suck it up” is what you said. People don’t say “suck it up” about good things. In any case, considering the fact that the Wolf is incredibly different to anything else in the game by a wide margin, it may be that if you want a game where the Wolf is a standard, then you’re the one playing the wrong game. Warframe has never been a game where progression is based on overcoming difficult challenges, and that’s a totally reasonable position. Not everything has to be Dark Souls, and in fact most games aren’t.

Hell, DE agrees that the Wolf was too much, so you saying “so don’t play” is basically saying that you think your opinion is not only more important than everyone else’s, it’s more important than the opinion of the people who make and own the game. Stop saying everything is subjective if you’re not willing to even remotely accept the idea that your subjective opinion might be just as acceptable as anyone else’s. 

Edited by YUNoJump
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39 minutes ago, (PS4)BenHeisennberg said:

Show me a non-rad crit method (that isn't Excalibur) that kills the Wolf in less than 5 minutes.  I carry weapons around that decimate level 200s, far above the power level of just about all missions.  The Wolf isn't "even tougher" by having an off button for those damage types.

Pretty sure that you think that you are making a valid point here, but I can just point out that there's an enemy who clearly wasn't going along with the whole being decimated by your weapons. And that's without any level 200s in sight. Guess the whole hubris and power fantasy mixture met its match. 

BTW how many times have I mentioned Garuda so far? I've lost count. Maybe if I go on google, find a YouTube link link and post it for you, because I know google can be hard to use for some folks... 

Oh look: 

Pretty sure you'll find what you are looking for around the 2:30 mark. Be sure to check the first couple of seconds to convince yourself that his health bar was pretty full there, and then pay attention to the numbers of that charge Garuda dropped on the wolf and what happened to his health bar. 

I look forward to seeing your future attempts to make bad excuses for your failures. 

24 minutes ago, YUNoJump said:

If you are choosing to specifically bring a weapon that is viable against the Wolf, rather than any other weapon, then that is the objective definition of restricted. Just because it’s not one single weapon doesn’t mean that it’s the same as total freedom. A status weapon in that slot is almost entirely useless against the Wolf, for instance.

Yeah no. Let's see if I can just quote myself and save the effort:

1 hour ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

As long as there's a tiny chance, it won't be a good idea to take rad crit only for him. Taking it because it's a good way to decimate the majority of the enemies on the starchart on the other hand is a pretty darned good reason to bring anything most places. 😉

See how easy that was for me to find? 

27 minutes ago, YUNoJump said:

Ok you’re right, there isn’t a “single warframe”. There is a selection of warframes, smaller compared to the entire pool. See my previous point that it is an objective restriction. I don’t want to play those specific frames all the time, that’s even worse than just a weapon because then my entire play style is affected.

This would probably be interesting if we didn't have a devstream a while back with really interesting graphs and charts showing that people already tend to use some warframes more than others. Of course taking a viable weapon would open up your choices in frames. And taking a viable frame can change your options for weapons. It's one of those nifty gestalt type things, you see? Well maybe you won't see, but that's okay. 

31 minutes ago, YUNoJump said:

Heysuck it up” is what you said. People don’t say “suck it up” about good things.

Really? They don't? Because the last time I had to suck it up was the proxy rebellion. I went in with a frost thinking that the first defense would be a cakewalk at the low level. It was on Earth if I'm not mistaken. 

Turns out that there were freaking hyenas and nullies everywhere, and they were draining energy, and the entire squad just died and the objective got killed. Like for reals?!? I was all WTF, totally mortified. I mean we failed a mission!?! How the hell did that happen?  I took a second to think about it and that's when it hit me. 

It. Was. GLORIOUS!!! 

I didn't whine at DE for not being able to cheese it the first time through. Just put on my big boy pants and adapted. Anyone who couldn't do that, didn't make it through the first mission, so the other two were much better by comparison. Still one of the better experiences I had in the game to date. Think they gave me a sigil of some sort for it. 

Was getting put on my butt, because I wasn't well prepared, a bad thing or a good one? I'd say a good one, because I had to suck it up, and improve as a player. That wasn't a bad thing. 

Maybe having to admit to your failures is a bad thing for you. I don't know how you view it. I mean you seem to view my response as not liking that you said to "suck it up" so I guess you are very different from me culturally. I didn't care, and was pointing out that we all have different subjective views on things. Other than that your point was a non-starter, just like this time because unlike you I know that my subjective view is as acceptable as everyone else's. 

That's why I agree that the wolf doesn't need to be nerfed into the ground. 

I also provided facts instead of whining the whole time. You should try that. 

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9 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Pretty sure that you think that you are making a valid point here, but I can just point out that there's an enemy who clearly wasn't going along with the whole being decimated by your weapons. And that's without any level 200s in sight. Guess the whole hubris and power fantasy mixture met its match. 

BTW how many times have I mentioned Garuda so far? I've lost count. Maybe if I go on google, find a YouTube link link and post it for you, because I know google can be hard to use for some folks... 

Oh look: 



Pretty sure you'll find what you are looking for around the 2:30 mark. Be sure to check the first couple of seconds to convince yourself that his health bar was pretty full there, and then pay attention to the numbers of that charge Garuda dropped on the wolf and what happened to his health bar. 

I look forward to seeing your future attempts to make bad excuses for your failures. 

Again, you think everybody should be running rad crit, while I'm arguing that a variety of methods should work.

Fair enough, did not think Garuda would work.  Good work.  Now, find me something that's:

1:  Not a heavy blade.

2:  Not rad crit.

3:  Equipable while I'm running Nyx.

4:  Kills the Wolf in under 5 minutes.

I can equip a Warframe.

I can equip a rad crit heavy blade.

Now, please explain why doing one of those should be mandatory.

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7 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Yeah no. Let's see if I can just quote myself and save the effort:

Somehow you’re still totally missing the point. I don’t want variety so that I can choose “good” weapons or the top meta, I want it so that I can choose weapons I want to play. For instance, I like the Exergis. It’s a decent gun, but it’s not great at killing the Wolf, because its a status gun. I also like the Phage because I’ve got a Riven for it, and 100% status with blast is funny to knock everyone over with. It does the job in sorties, but isn’t viable against the Wolf because status. There are plenty of weapons that can clear any content other than the Wolf, except all of that other content is actually rewarding and can be done more than 6% of the time at random intervals.

13 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

This would probably be interesting if we didn't have a devstream a while back with really interesting graphs and charts showing that people already tend to use some warframes more than others. Of course taking a viable weapon would open up your choices in frames. And taking a viable frame can change your options for weapons. It's one of those nifty gestalt type things, you see? Well maybe you won't see, but that's okay. 

Yeah, people have favourite frames. Mine is Rhino. But there are two problems with your argument. One is that lots of people have favourite frames that aren’t wolf killers. For instance Mesa is possibly the most popular frame overall, but she doesn’t offer much against Wolf. Limbo is also popular but Wolf ignores the Rift. I got invaded while playing Saryn the other day and all she really offered was endless molt regen. 

The other problem is that people use different frames for different mission types, but Wolf can spawn anywhere. I wouldn’t trust Rhino on a defence, I wouldn’t trust Hildryn against infested, I wouldn’t trust Frost in a high-level mission where I have to keep moving. To adapt to missions (something that you clearly love the idea of) you’d have to swap out your Wolf-frame. 

Other than that, there’s still the fact that just because you think people shouldn’t need to change warframes, and that there’s a trend to play one frame more, it doesn’t mean that it’s fine to actually restrict people from making that choice if they want to.

24 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

It. Was. GLORIOUS!!! 

Well this is just a personal anecdote about something you found fun on your own. You’re really not convincing me that you are in any way capable of seeing someone else’s perspective. “I had a good time failing” isn’t facts, it’s literally just your own subjective opinion.

I’ll say it again: not everyone has the same idea of fun as you.

You’re clearly trying to look at the game as if all games should follow the Dark Souls philosophy here. Not every game needs to be about building around your failures. In fact, most games are fine with just letting players have a good time succeeding. There’s a difference between being completely unengaging and forcing you to slam your head into a wall until the wall breaks.

Warframe has always given players a pretty easy time with any mission. There have been outliers like Endurance, or stuff that is designed to be difficult alone but manageable with a squad, but the key here is that all of those things have been kept separate from the main game. The Wolf appears anywhere and can often ruin a mission if you don’t either fight him or suicide. I’m all for difficulty being in the game, but difficulty shouldn’t be forced on someone while they’re trying to do an easier thing. Even Dark Souls knows that, which is why it keeps enemy location consistent so you always know what to prepare for. Another thing is that Dark Souls actually rewards you when you beat the challenge, it doesn’t drop a Molten Impact then disappear.

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1 hour ago, YUNoJump said:

Somehow you’re still totally missing the point. I don’t want variety so that I can choose “good” weapons or the top meta, I want it so that I can choose weapons I want to play. For instance, I like the Exergis. It’s a decent gun, but it’s not great at killing the Wolf, because its a status gun. I also like the Phage because I’ve got a Riven for it, and 100% status with blast is funny to knock everyone over with. It does the job in sorties, but isn’t viable against the Wolf because status. There are plenty of weapons that can clear any content other than the Wolf, except all of that other content is actually rewarding and can be done more than 6% of the time at random intervals.

No buddy I saw the point that you were trying to make long ago. I just don't consider it valid, because it is subjective, and also weak. 

See both of those weapons is a primary so you're going to have a hard time using both at the same time anyway. It also leaves you with at least 3 other slots to choose from. 

Your entire argument is boiling down to nothing more than "what if I don't want take a viable weapon for the fight I'll face?" to which the obvious answer is, "then you will have chosen to give yourself a hard time, and that's on you". There's no reason why the game should cater to your every whim, when you are just refusing to adapt to its changes. 

1 hour ago, YUNoJump said:

Yeah, people have favourite frames. Mine is Rhino.

Mine too. Came in handy for killing the Wolf. Repeatedly.

Regarding the three non-tanky frames often used to cheese content, when the wolf showed up, it would probably have been a good idea to make use of the environment to get away from the melee damage. Having a decent weapon to fall back on would probably have been a good idea as well, if you think about it. Maybe a spectre or two, and the occasional pizza would be a good idea. And hey, dealing with the fugitives and assorted mobs would have been helpful to whoever was going to be dealing with the wolf. Had a limbo, or maybe it was a volt who did very little damage to the wolf, but pitched in in other ways. He's a real MVP in my books because he made the fight soooo much easier for me.

So, tell me again why I think that one of those frames can't be used? 🙄

1 hour ago, YUNoJump said:

Well this is just a personal anecdote about something you found fun on your own. You’re really not convincing me that you are in any way capable of seeing someone else’s perspective. “I had a good time failing” isn’t facts, it’s literally just your own subjective opinion.

Maybe that's because of the whole "your reading and comprehension skills need work" thing? 

Yes the phrase "I had a great time" indicated that it was subjective, and is not presented as "this is what fun is, or is not". I figured that since you put such great stock in your subjective opinions as to pass them off as facts, presenting you with a differing opinion might be a way to show you that not everyone agrees or is required to agree with you on subjective matters. Doesn't seem to have sunk in though. Perhaps you're just incapable of seeing things from the perspective of others? 

Regarding the dark souls games, I never played them. They don't seem to be something that I'd be interested in. Not sure why you're bringing them up, unless it's as an example of something else that doesn't pander to your power fantasy and doesn't go out of its way to encourage you to play with poorly chosen gear for the enemies you face? But hey if you figure it's more rewarding, good luck when you're playing it. 

2 hours ago, (PS4)BenHeisennberg said:

Again, you think everybody should be running rad crit, while I'm arguing that a variety of methods should work.

You know I could swear that I gave you an example that just proved that rad crit wasn't the only way to take on the wolf. Maybe you missed it? 

2 hours ago, (PS4)BenHeisennberg said:

Fair enough, did not think Garuda would work. 

Do tell. 

2 hours ago, (PS4)BenHeisennberg said:

Good work.  Now, find me something that's:

1:  Not a heavy blade.

2:  Not rad crit.

3:  Equipable while I'm running Nyx.

4:  Kills the Wolf in under 5 minutes.

Oh look nothing at all about what level or group status.  So probably one of the high crit gas hammers, or a gas sniper, or a gas bow. Nyx should be able to deal with the goons quite nicely. 

Anywhere else that you want to try putting the goalposts? I can make some suggestions for places you can try if you like. 

2 hours ago, (PS4)BenHeisennberg said:

I can equip a Warframe.

 

I'm confused. You want a cookie or something? 

2 hours ago, (PS4)BenHeisennberg said:

I can equip a rad crit heavy blade.

Will this one do? 🍪

2 hours ago, (PS4)BenHeisennberg said:

Now, please explain why doing one of those should be mandatory.

Well you are playing a game called Warframe, and the missions seem to require that you equip a Warframe. I think that it is a branding thing. 

Now if you meant "why should you be required to take viable gear, if you want to be able to make short work of the enemies you face", it seems to be intended to add variety to the game. That's why different damage types encounter different resistances on different enemies. In the case of the woss, he's weakest against radiation damage so that's why people advised taking high powered weapons that can deal those types. But as Garuda demonstrated in the video above, if you are able to find a way to deal enough damage, even impact damage will destroy him in a single shot. 

And honestly, while I have humoured your demands for ways to do what you thought couldn't be done, it's really up to you to figure out how to do that, in the manner you wish to. 

Have a great day Tenno, hope you enjoy that cookie. ☺️

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Posted (edited)

Jesus Christ, not sure where to start quoting.  So much bad faith $&*^ swinging.

Nyx does not CC the fugitives, they maintain low aggro to each other.

I shouldn't have to run Valkyr or Paracesis.  Or Garuda or Excalibur.  Or any of these very particular options.  That's the point. 

The "goalposts" are an analogy to make you think:  "why are we constrained to a relative few selections of a wide arsenal?"

You still haven't convinced me why the majority of the arsenal (including my favorite Warframe) should be invalidated for a star chart assassin.  Thank God there's nobody as dense as you on the dev team.

Edited by (PS4)BenHeisennberg
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2 minutes ago, (PS4)BenHeisennberg said:

You still haven't convinced me why the majority of the arsenal (including my favorite Warframe) should be invalidated for a star chart assassin.  Thank God there's nobody as dense as you on the dev team.

You're not going to get guz to feel anything other than disgust with other players for not listening to them.

I've had him blocked for weeks now and its quite telling that at least 30% of the posts in this dead thread are them.

The saddest part is that guz is going to quote this despite the fact that I won't see it, for whatever reason.

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5 hours ago, (PS4)BenHeisennberg said:

Jesus Christ, not sure where to start quoting.  So much bad faith $&*^ swinging.

Nyx does not CC the fugitives, they maintain low aggro to each other.

I shouldn't have to run Valkyr or Paracesis.  Or Garuda or Excalibur.  Or any of these very particular options.  That's the point. 

The "goalposts" are an analogy to make you think:  "why are we constrained to a relative few selections of a wide arsenal?"

You still haven't convinced me why the majority of the arsenal (including my favorite Warframe) should be invalidated for a star chart assassin.  Thank God there's nobody as dense as you on the dev team.

Bad faith is snarkily asking someone to do what you think is impossible, dismissing when they do it and shifting the goalposts yet again, getting another solid answer, and then blowing a fuse. 

The fact that I'm able to comply both times (using stuff people have mentioned in the past) doesn't make me think that I'm being restricted, just that I have to be a bit more creative in finding a way to do what I'm being asked to do, that allows me to do it. 

What it does indicate to me is the extreme lengths that you're willing to go to, to try and find ways to suggest that the Wolf was impossible to beat. 

I never tried to suggest that the majority of the arsenal should be invalidated, that's always been you guys doing that. Honestly a lot of the arsenal generally sucks for any given task. Instead I've been focusing on finding weapon and warframe combinations that would get the job done, and using them to adapt to the changing situation in the game. You guys seem to have been focussed on how to not get it done. 

Do you know what happens to creature that aren't able to adapt to the changes in their environment? I do. 

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6 hours ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

No buddy I saw the point that you were trying to make long ago. I just don't consider it valid, because it is subjective, and also weak. 

See both of those weapons is a primary so you're going to have a hard time using both at the same time anyway. It also leaves you with at least 3 other slots to choose from. 

Forgive me, I chose two status weapons I like and they are both primaries, an irrelevant part of the example. Please give me a minute while I list every single weapon in the game that's better for status than crit and then we can continue. Meanwhile you could bide the time by looking up what an example is.

6 hours ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Your entire argument is boiling down to nothing more than "what if I don't want take a viable weapon for the fight I'll face?" to which the obvious answer is, "then you will have chosen to give yourself a hard time, and that's on you". There's no reason why the game should cater to your every whim, when you are just refusing to adapt to its changes. 

Yes it is really, I want to be able to choose any weapon (that I'm confident in) for the mission I choose, and for there to not exist a low chance for the mission to quadruple in length if I chose a non-rad-crit weapon and/or a Warframe without a damage buff. As I said in my comment, Wolf is the only thing in the game that drastically alters the difficulty of any given mission, and there's no way to tell when he'll do it. Every single other piece of content in the game puts its difficulty right there in the open so you know what you're getting into.

Additionally, the Wolf has such a low chance of spawning that having to consider his existence for the entire foreseeable future of the game, in every mission, is taking up far too much of my attention compared to anything else in the game. Hell, even compared to what he drops. I'm not permanently modifying my loadout for the chance to win a crappy mod.

6 hours ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Regarding the three non-tanky frames often used to cheese content, when the wolf showed up, it would probably have been a good idea to make use of the environment to get away from the melee damage. Having a decent weapon to fall back on would probably have been a good idea as well, if you think about it. Maybe a spectre or two, and the occasional pizza would be a good idea. And hey, dealing with the fugitives and assorted mobs would have been helpful to whoever was going to be dealing with the wolf. Had a limbo, or maybe it was a volt who did very little damage to the wolf, but pitched in in other ways. He's a real MVP in my books because he made the fight soooo much easier for me.

Now you want me to be spending consumables on him. I wouldn't trade a pizza or a specter for what the Wolf drops. You also assume that good environmental positioning just magically appears whenever you need it (even on Defence or Interception maps which only have 1 room), and you also seem to believe that i'm 100% always going to be in a squad, despite the fact that the Wolf gets even tankier when there's more players. In fact, you want the rest of my squad to use specific frames too.

The Wolf is never going to leave the game. Are you going to be telling all of your squads from here on out "wait we need a CC frame in case the Wolf spawns, and make sure you bring a spare rad/crit weapon as well"? You're gonna get some funny looks I think.

6 hours ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Yes the phrase "I had a great time" indicated that it was subjective, and is not presented as "this is what fun is, or is not". I figured that since you put such great stock in your subjective opinions as to pass them off as facts, presenting you with a differing opinion might be a way to show you that not everyone agrees or is required to agree with you on subjective matters. Doesn't seem to have sunk in though. Perhaps you're just incapable of seeing things from the perspective of others? 

Regarding the dark souls games, I never played them. They don't seem to be something that I'd be interested in. Not sure why you're bringing them up, unless it's as an example of something else that doesn't pander to your power fantasy and doesn't go out of its way to encourage you to play with poorly chosen gear for the enemies you face? But hey if you figure it's more rewarding, good luck when you're playing it. 

Yeah your anecdote there was subjective and I would accept it as a real viewpoint if you had anything to back it up other than "I had fun for the exact reasons other people didn't have fun". You have to actually explain why your subjective opinion should be accepted by anyone else.

Repeatedly failing until you succeed can work as an enjoyable task, but if you want to make doing so fun then you have to provide actual challenge as well as good rewards. The Wolf isn't a good challenge, he's a DPS check. All of his moves are either close-range and dodgeable, or probably won't take out that much health. As you say, he's easy if you just bring a good weapon, so the fight can be decided before you even meet him. He also has some invincible dudes that can oneshot you, but if you repeatedly lay down CC, they are basically removed from the fight. As such, it becomes a task (albeit not a challenging or engaging task) of remembering to press a single button every few seconds or else you get immolated. As for rewards, he drops mostly trash mods, MAYBE a PART of a mediocre weapon, and MAYBE an operator cosmetic. 

I mention the Dark Souls series because they know how to do "fail until you succeed" perfectly. Despite being much more difficult than most games, they've managed to become a massive mainstream success. You'll absolutely never have a power fantasy in those games, and the game punishes you if you think you can waltz through an area without preparing and being careful. They have achieved this success by making the difficulty consistent and fair, by giving the fights depth and real challenge, and by rewarding the player appropriately when they overcome a challenge. The Wolf does none of these things. If the Wolf fight was as well-designed as a Dark Souls fight I'd be right next to you defending him.

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Posted (edited)
On 2019-05-24 at 6:30 PM, Vitalis_Inamorta said:

He's a troll and a waste of flesh.  Just ignore him.

I'm actually impressed I left for over a week and come back to see him still being at it. Personally, I think it's a shame that kind of person roams around, since his kind of talk just gives DE an excuse to say "but there are people who like it" and not change something. Hopefully they don't listen to him and the "I can't believe you refuse to carry a meta radiation crit weapon through almost every single mission, you should start playing the game exactly like I want or you suck" talk just wooshes above their head, like it did above mine.

Edited by Basalto

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1 hour ago, Basalto said:

I'm actually impressed I left for over a week and come back to see him still being at it. Personally, I think it's a shame that kind of person roams around, since his kind of talk just gives DE an excuse to say "but there are people who like it" and not change something. Hopefully they don't listen to him and the "I can't believe you refuse to carry a meta radiation crit weapon through almost every single mission, you should start playing the game exactly like I want or you suck" talk just wooshes above their head, like it did above mine.

The irony meter went off the chart here. 

First you're not able to check the timestamps to see who's been necroposting the thread. 

Next you're basically telling me that the problem is that I'm not thinking about the game exactly as you like and need to start doing that or I "suck". 

My argument has always been that we have multiple options, and have shown this, even going so far as to provide options that people thought wouldn't be able to work. (The last set was high crit gas, btw but hey who's bothering with silly little things like facts when strawmanning is so much easier.) 

It's interesting to cross reference the names of the people making the spurious complaints on threads like this with other threads. Looks like the unholy offspring of a Negative Nancy and a Karen Who Wants A Manager managed to find a way to clone itself. Recently saw one where the theme was "you've fixed Nyx, but it is still a problem because you didn't communicate with me about the issue". 

Good luck to you in the future, wherever that may lead you, Tenno. You're going to need it. 

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Why is this thread bumped again?

Actually...nevermind I can see why.

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