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Doomclaaw

Ah nekros, my old bony friend

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Posted (edited)

So here's yet another nekros rework thread but bear with me. This isn't going to be "he needs moar damage" BS. 

Right now most can agree nekros is in the best place he's been since release. However, his kit just doesn't synergize too well and other than being a loot pooper or a tank he lacks diversity with a few extremely creative exceptions. A retooling is in order mainly on how his powers work together as a whole. 

SOUL PUNCH-  I actually like this skill and how it mechanically works. It was never and, imo, should never be about raw damage. This skill however could be the best hope for synergy.  Even though I'm going kind if out of order here we'll start with how it could affect the shadows. Nekros has long needed a way to more efficiently "prune" his undead horde beyond just waiting for them to bleed out. A direct blow from soul punch could remove that minion, allowing you to destroy those pesky weak melee units. Holding down the button before release could cause the shadowy friend to explode instead. This could also open up countless opportunities for augments. I'll cover some of those in their own section below. Hitting an enemy with a charge could increase the newly liberated soul's area of effect, spreading unholy cheer to many more clueless meatbags. Also a charge would allow nekros to revive players with more health and some energy when using the augment mod soul survivor (up to a reasonable amount of course).

TERRIFY-  As it stands now, terrify is a pretty solid skill. It gives nekros some amazing CC as well as an additional role as a debuffer (which is one of my primary goals to be added to nekros' kit; more on that later). Some people have suggested giving it the Rhino roar treatment for the shadows but I have a reason for not doing this I'll cover when we get to the shadows power. The only change I think I would like to see is the armor strip should have a stacking charge effect on the power. Now hold your skeleton horses, I'm not saying the stripping value should be tied to that, oh no. Something far more sinister. Enemies affected by terrify will spread a puncture status effect to enemies they get close to and a charge will be consumed.  The number of charges can be affected by power strength.  This brings nekros more debuff power.  The type of status can be changed with an augment if the devs so choose. This thematically works because enemies not directly affected by terrify see their comrades fleeing in fear and they lose some resolve, thereby reducing attack damage. 

DESECRATE-  Honestly I don't think this skill needs to be touched.  It does what we want it to and beyond still dreaming that despoiled would one day be baseline for the power,  not much needs be done.  Plenty of burial plots for augments however. 

SHADOWS OF THE DEAD-  Here's where the juicy meat comes from.  The shadows just don't do enough damage.  I think we can all agree on that.  A slight damage boost would be nice without requiring such heavy investment in mods to do it. Another thing that rattles my bones is how an eximus shadow doesn't seem willing to share it's full eximus potential with the rest of us as liberally as it does as a living baddie. Now there are exceptions of course,  mainly being the infested ones.  Giving the eximus shadows some effects that debuff enemies or benefit the squad more reliably would go a long way to making our little shambling rotbags more viable in higher end content as well as preserve the unique nature of nekros playstyle which requires intelligent targeting of enemies to maximize shadow summoning.  Lastly,  pruning an enemy with the newly resurrected Soul Punch power has an added bonus (and the reason I don't want shadow strength on Terrify)- each time a shadow is pruned, it's leftover power is given to remaining shadows.  It's remaining max health and attack strength are added based on how much natural health degeneration it has recieved. More degen means more buff. This will go up to 60% after killing 6 shadows. This prevents constant spamming to get one superpowered harbinger of doom. 

This post is getting really long so I'll cover Augments in a follow up. I'm also open to any constructive suggestions and if I like them I'll add them to my lists. 

Edited by Doomclaaw
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All I would want for Nekros is that they make Soul Punch useful, maybe turn it into a non-damage skill with a debuff that gives life leech when you hit an effected enemy. It could work mechanically similar to Khora's ensnare so it speads to enemies nearby.

The second thing is a complete rework of his shadows... or should I say removal. I mean they are a fun concept and could be turned into something really useful, but it doesnt remove the part that they are extremely intrusive wherever and whenever a Nekros is present. Heck I feel they are intrusive even when I play solo.

My idea would be to give him either a corpse explosion that leaves behind DoT hotspots on the ground at the location where corpses explode. Shield of Shadows could still be a thing, it would simply go from a DR based on number of minions active to a duration based buff with a DR based on how many corpses you detonate.

Second idea is to simply have him summon an abomination, not based on dead mobs at all, but its own entinity with loadout options like Venari. It could either be something Flesh Golem looking (Grineer/Corpus/Infested hybrid), or a massive dog-like creature to resemble Cerberus or Garm. I think something dog-like would be good since they already have mods to fit it. Give it some eximus-like power that you can toggle like Venari's stance options, like Cold, Heat, Toxin and Electric aura, with their own specific buffs tied to them. Cold for extra armor, Heat for life on hit (similar to Healing Return mod in strength), Toxin similar to toxic ancient and Electric could have passive energy regen. All would also give immunities to the specific proc types and possible damage resistance.

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I like your shadow ideas but I'd prefer it as an augment to give people the option to choose. Having multiple shadows is still invaluable for pulling aggro off soft targets or defense objectives. 

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Posted (edited)

This post will be all about augments to followup with my previous nekros rework post. Keep in mind these augments will work off of my suggestions for the powers in my previous post so if you haven't read that yet please do so then come back here.

AUGMENTS-

*Soul Punch

Necrotic Explosion: when Nekros dissipates a minion with a charged up soul punch, the minion explodes and leaves behind a pool of necrotic filth. This pool will cause either a corrosive or viral proc to anything contacting it (50% chance for each)

Life Swap: when Nekros soul punches a shadow to destroy it, the shadow sacrifices its life force to open a portal through the realm of the dead. Nekros and allies can use this portal as a teleport. This portal only provides one way travel. After use the portal closes. 

*Terrify

Penance: instead of fleeing in fear the affected targets will lose hope and fall to the ground in fear. Their tainted souls will manifest as a spirit and attack them while they are prone. The soul returns to the body once the duration has run its course. 

*Desecrate

Pestilence: enemy corpses affected by desecrate will spawn corpse flies. These corpse flies will do damage ticks and slash procs to any enemy unlucky enough to contact them. They will not follow enemies however they will seek out and chop up corpses for nekros to aid in further desecrations. 

*Shadows of the Dead

Lich Hound: instead of summoning shadows, nekros will summon a single undead hound to fight alongside it's dark master. Each time an enemy is killed by nekros this adds a stacking buff to his next cast of Shadows of the Dead which will apply itself to the hound in the form of a health and damage buff. Once consumed the stacks will reset to zero and more kills must be done to replenish them. If the stacks are reapplied before the buff has ended on the hound this will refresh the timer but not add further buffs. The base health and power of the creature will be dependent on the health and power of its master. If the hound dies, all stacks are lost and the shambling horror must resummoned. Credit for this idea goes to SneakyErvine

Sacrificial Rites: instead of healing the shadows when recasting, nekros sacrifices the minions to heal himself and squad mates. Each shadow contributes 5% of the player's health as a heal up to 40% for all 7 minions. If health is already full there is no effect. Using this augment causes the shadows to explode on death. 

More augment ideas will be added based on your suggestions or as they come to me. 

One last note I feel is very important to add: nekros struggles very badly with having a defined role in boss fights. In nearly any boss fight his powers have no effect. I think as a whole this might fall under bosses needing a rework in general but allowing at least reduced effects from his powers would be nice. For example: soul punch could deliver a stagger rather than launching it off the map similar to conclave. Terrify can still apply any debuffs without the CC effect. Boss summons like Keyla's roller balls could count as a shadow summon if killed, ect. 

Edited by Doomclaaw
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I like the augment ideas especially the pestilence and lick hound ones, But Nekros is too dependent on the current augments so we'll have to wait for a rework in the near future.

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On 2019-05-14 at 10:47 PM, (PS4)sonicizanagi said:

I like the augment ideas especially the pestilence and lick hound ones, But Nekros is too dependent on the current augments so we'll have to wait for a rework in the near future.

The only one he's definitely required to have it the despoiled one. Without it you can burn through your energy pool in seconds. There's still room for one more you just have to get creative with it, granted with my lich hound augment you most likely won't be able to use shield of shadows which would be pointless anyway with only 1 minion

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Shield of Shadows is ridiculously good on Nekros, I personally find it's even more important than Despoil. Compared to that gigantic damage resistance and status immunity (which basically give him Nidus level tankiness) I have a hard time seeing how the other Shadows of the Dead augments are competitive.

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Posted (edited)

Nekros main (my profile most used section has been stuck, bugged and wrong since 2016) currently running a three augment build (all but Shield of Shadows which I find unnecessary with all the survivability buffs/mods/gear added to the game over the last year or so) with great results.

All four augments for Nekros are already among the better augments in the game. Soul Survivor's instant rez, Creeping Terrify's potent CC, Despoil and Shield of Shadows are perfect as is. No changes required.

In fact IMO the augment changes suggested in the OP would represent a massive, unnecessary Nekros nerf. No thanks. Other than the obtrusiveness of Army of the Dead and possibly making the shades far more "wispy" and significantly smaller, no changes are needed to Nekros at all IMO.

Edited by Buttaface

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On 2019-05-16 at 10:04 AM, Buttaface said:

Nekros main (my profile most used section has been stuck, bugged and wrong since 2016) currently running a three augment build (all but Shield of Shadows which I find unnecessary with all the survivability buffs/mods/gear added to the game over the last year or so) with great results.

All four augments for Nekros are already among the better augments in the game. Soul Survivor's instant rez, Creeping Terrify's potent CC, Despoil and Shield of Shadows are perfect as is. No changes required.

In fact IMO the augment changes suggested in the OP would represent a massive, unnecessary Nekros nerf. No thanks. Other than the obtrusiveness of Army of the Dead and possibly making the shades far more "wispy" and significantly smaller, no changes are needed to Nekros at all IMO.

The changes I suggested would not affect the current augments and would give more synergy with his kit as a whole. Yeah all the powers are good individually, I even said he's in the best place he's been in thus far, but that's just it. They're all in their own little bubble and don't really interact with the others at all. I'd like to hear your thoughts on how you think my changes would be a straight nerf to him, and that's genuine- not me being snarky. The whole reason I started this thread was to get creative ideas flowing rather than the usual boring "he needs moar damage" that 90% of these forums are eat up with. 

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1 hour ago, Doomclaaw said:

The changes I suggested would not affect the current augments and would give more synergy with his kit as a whole. Yeah all the powers are good individually, I even said he's in the best place he's been in thus far, but that's just it. They're all in their own little bubble and don't really interact with the others at all. I'd like to hear your thoughts on how you think my changes would be a straight nerf to him, and that's genuine- not me being snarky. The whole reason I started this thread was to get creative ideas flowing rather than the usual boring "he needs moar damage" that 90% of these forums are eat up with. 

I did not realize the changes were added to Nekros' current state, and read them as replacing the status quo.

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Posted (edited)

I've been running with Creeping Terrify, Despoil, and Shield of Shadows augments in the same build for some time (absolutely love this build with Equilibrium lol).  But while running a Survival Arbitration where my Nekros had 300% strength, I noticed for the first time that my Shadows were all of a sudden perma stuck in my Creeping Terrify debuff EVEN if I summoned completely new shadows.  They just always had the debuff thus always at this 80% slow. This was against Infested btw.

Now, to be frank, it didn't matter a whole lot.  I was able to easily handle up to lvl 150 enemies (had to leave at this point) so did not affect gameplay too much since I remained super tanky between, Equilibrium, Desecrate, and spamming Terrify.  Being Infested, the enemy usually just ran up to my Shadows so everything was in melee range.  But it was a little annoying if a group of enemies were surrounding a single shadow, the rest of my shadows would take a century to get over there.

I'm not too sure how my Shadows got affected and it occurred pretty early on in the round. What caught my attention suddenly was the animation that shows an enemy being 'terrified' was on my Shadows. My first thought was maybe killing enemies while they were effected by Terrify causes them to transfer the debuff over to my Shadows incidentally but when I let both Terrify and Shadows to run out in time, I tried killing a grip of enemies then recasting Shadows alone and they still spawned in with the debuff. So it honestly was permanent unless in the long pool of backup Shadows that I had, many or most of them were affected by Terrify.  And this is the first time I've noticed this bug but to be fair, I don't pay attention too much to my actual Shadows except when I maybe glance at their HP bar from time to time and how many are currently up.  And I highly doubt this may have an affect but my main (and really only) weapon of use was Catchmoon with Pax Seeker and I also had a Harrow, Inaros and Umbral Excalibur on my team.  But cannot see why any of those combinations would trigger this bug.

 

EDIT:  I should add that my Shadows would luckily focus the enemies still and engage them.  It seemed to only be the 'slow' debuff that affected them.  Not sure if the armor debuff was applied also since most of the Infested do not have armor to begin with.

Edited by (PS4)BJwobbleDix
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The Soul Punch effect to "prune" Shadows you dont want should probably have been implemented in the live game in the first place. Even the relatively recent Revenant, with an ability thats suspicious similar to Shadows of the Dead, still has the option of trimming down his own minions whenever he wants. It should be an "on charge shot" only effect, though, really wouldn't like to accidentally kill the good Shadows while trying to Soul Punch enemies. If it should be just a peaceful dismissal of the Shadow or have an added effect to it, that I'm not sure. Multiple effects to what is supposed to be a simple and entry-level ability like most, if not all, 1 abilities will just make it clunky and at times cumbersome and distracting.

I say Terrifiy's main mechanic is fine as is for the theme of the Warframe. Making it work like an "infection" jumping from enemy to enemy would be more in line with stuff like Saryn or Nidus.

Desecrate is good, yes, looter ability for a looter shooter game. DE pls don't nerf.

About Shadows of the Dead, i recently made a suggestion thread on Nekros that included a rework of that ability. Check it to see if it's in line with what you envisioned.

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Practically all of Nekro's current augments are straight upgrades to his abilities. You can literally make any build including all 4 of them and still work out in lvl 100+. To the point where a good Nekros can't even go without some of them (Despoil and Shield of Shadows mainly).

Then again, the same can be said for practically all augment mods, which are simply adding some numbers to the ability and not actually changing how the ability works. They're all just "do what you've always done, now its better" like Ballistic Bullseye or Capacitance instead of "this is a completely different style from what you're used to, you're gonna have to adapt" like Tectonic Fracture or Warding Thurible.

Also, outside of Conclave, we still don't have a precedent set for multiple Augments for the same ability, so I don't think we can start imagining it happening just yet.

Now, about your own suggestions:

Necrotic Explosion: Hmmmm, I really can't see Nekros as one to use "filthy" style of abilities, he gives the feeling of a more clean and efficient type of necromancer.

Life Swap: Where does this portal go? How exactly does it work? Is it like Nova's Worm Hole connect from where Nekros is to where he Soul Punched the Shadow? Or is it something like Limbo's Rift where you're in "the shadow realm" where stuff happens differently? From what you wrote I'm not really understanding how the ability is supposed to work.

Penance: Practically the same as what Creeping Terrify already does, but slightly better and with no investment in Power Strength required.

Pestilence: Same deal as with Necrotic Explosion, plus Nekro's Desecrate will probably be consuming corpses faster than the flies get to them for extra chops.

Lich Hound: This would be fine in a more, let's just call it, "classic" type of fantasy setting, where elves and dragons are abound, but in a "dark sci-fi" universe like Warframe, this effect would raise more questions than answers. Where did he get the idea for an undead hound? This isn't how Liches work. How is he summoning a hound from killing humanoid enemies? And also, again, it seems to be too "filthy" of an ability for a sleek necromancer like Nekros to be using.

Sacrificial Rites: If this is an optional Augment, I think its a good effect. But just healing seems to be too low an effect for the price of sacrificing all of your minions. Usually you recast Shadows to reload them if they're low or any are missing and that's a good feature to keep the ability consistent. I think your previous idea of having Soul Punch manually dismiss select shadows to summon new ones is still more efficient than this.

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Did you get hit with a rad proc at some point? Otherwise this looks like a bug.

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1 hour ago, Atsia said:

Did you get hit with a rad proc at some point? Otherwise this looks like a bug.

I don't remember.  That actually would make sense but the fact it was perma seems odd.  It may have bugged out after I got rad proc'd and then used the ability.   I've tried playing some more with Nekros afterwards and could not recreate the instance.

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all of nekros's augments should be in the base abilities

soul punch should be removed

terrify armor reduction should be buffed

 

i dont care about my loot,i mean im not really doing anything cool by doubling my own plastids tbh

 

discuss

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Oh look feedback posted in GD.

 

His augments aren't required for him to function in higher levels; Shield of Shadows is good but not mandatory.

Souls punch is bad but still far better than a lot of other "1st" abilities as it offers single target CC while being a one-handed action.

Terrify is also a CC ability ("CC is bad etc etc") and the reduction scales with strength.

Desecrate is the primary reason people use him at all. It also does more than just double resources as it also increases the number of Powercell, Life Support, and Health/Energy Orb drops.

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40 minutes ago, trst said:

Oh look feedback posted in GD.

 

His augments aren't required for him to function in higher levels; Shield of Shadows is good but not mandatory.

Souls punch is bad but still far better than a lot of other "1st" abilities as it offers single target CC while being a one-handed action.

Terrify is also a CC ability ("CC is bad etc etc") and the reduction scales with strength.

Desecrate is the primary reason people use him at all. It also does more than just double resources as it also increases the number of Powercell, Life Support, and Health/Energy Orb drops.

despoil is kinda mandatory tbh

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Soul punch needs the % heath insta kill mechanic Garudas 1 has and shadows of the dead NEED to be made more useful. The. He’d be more than just “loot frame”

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Hi all, I want to share my Nekros rework concept.

Feel free to share your personal rework too, I like to see a friendly exchange of ideas and opinions 😉

 

Sorry if I re-post here but I had the doubt that I had written in the wrong place😅

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Posted (edited)

Nekros main with more than 300 million affinity on Nekros/Prime last time I checked. Nekros is one of the most powerful frames in the game right now... one of the most powerful combat frames... right now. Doesn't require any rework IMO other than perhaps making the shades smaller and less obtrusive to the team. The raw power of the augments has been the "rework" of Nekros over time.

Nekros' power is related to the loot horking function of Desecrate/Despoil, but that function in and of itself does not define the frame's power. The power comes from the combination of survivability tools that work fine on other frames, but truly make Nekros shine, such as Health Conversion and Equilibrium (Vitality and Adaptation as well, only a stretch mod, no strength), constant healing waves from a set of Arcane Pulse, and the ability for it to permanently channel melee (triggering zaw exodia triumph or valor) while running Naramon for high combo counter without needing Rage or to be hit. Other frames generate health orbs... not like Nekros though, and especially not like a choppy melee Nekros. The passive is deceptively powerful also.

Were the augments part of the basic kit and other augments added, the frame would be too powerful. I rarely use the ult unless the team is weak and needs aggro management/point protection. I run a triple augment build with Despoil, Soul Survivor and Creeping Terrify. Solo, I replace Soul Survivor with Rush or Rolling Guard. Content up to the mid 100 levels doesn't require any healing on the melee weapon, past that I use Life Strike or Healing Return. The higher damage from exodia allow both mandatory Dispatch Overdrive and optional Healing Return/Life Strike on the weapon while preserving a very fast TTK through high Naramon-fueled combo counter and channeling exodia triumph/valor.

Would hope they spend rework resources on other frames first before doing anything to Nekros other than making the ult less obtrusive to teammates.

Edited by Buttaface
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25 minutes ago, Buttaface said:

Nekros main with more than 300 million affinity on Nekros/Prime last time I checked. Nekros is one of the most powerful frames in the game right now... one of the most powerful combat frames... right now. Doesn't require any rework IMO other than perhaps making the shades smaller and less obtrusive to the team. The raw power of the augments has been the "rework" of Nekros over time.

Nekros' power is related to the loot horking function of Desecrate/Despoil, but that function in and of itself does not define the frame's power. The power comes from the combination of survivability tools that work fine on other frames, but truly make Nekros shine, such as Health Conversion and Equilibrium (Vitality and Adaptation as well, only a stretch mod, no strength), constant healing waves from a set of Arcane Pulse, and the ability for it to permanently channel melee (triggering zaw exodia triumph or valor) while running Naramon for high combo counter without needing Rage or to be hit. Other frames generate health orbs... not like Nekros though, and especially not like a choppy melee Nekros. The passive is deceptively powerful also.

Were the augments part of the basic kit and other augments added, the frame would be too powerful. I rarely use the ult unless the team is weak and needs aggro management/point protection. I run a triple augment build with Despoil, Soul Survivor and Creeping Terrify. Solo, I replace Soul Survivor with Rush or Rolling Guard. Content up to the mid 100 levels doesn't require any healing on the melee weapon, past that I use Life Strike or Healing Return. The higher damage from exodia allow both mandatory Dispatch Overdrive and optional Healing Return/Life Strike on the weapon while preserving a very fast TTK through high Naramon-fueled combo counter and channeling exodia triumph/valor.

Would hope they spend rework resources on other frames first before doing anything to Nekros other than making the ult less obtrusive to teammates.

I agree with most of this, plus I like your build! 

But you gotta admit it must be frustrating for a build only to really work with Syndicate mods and augments? 

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Why.. Didn't you just copy the text from that and paste it here instead of making us jump through an extra hoop to comment. 

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, vakary829 said:

I agree with most of this, plus I like your build! 

But you gotta admit it must be frustrating for a build only to really work with Syndicate mods and augments? 

Yep it's true, the augments do define Nekros' power to a large degree. I'm fine with that but understand if others would like tweaks also.

Edited by Buttaface
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