Atlas, Bearer of Planets, Rework

[(PSN)VagueWisdom]

As I currently see it, Atlas' kit is lacking the capability to scale in endgame (Sortie level, or lvl80+). I'll go over what I think of his abilities as they currently are.

1. Landslide is okay as far as I know. It deals decent damage, grants invincibility for the duration of the animation, & only really starts to suffer at sortie level due to how armor works. Shields are still inconsequential unless the enemy is a lvl150+ eximus. Landslide is affected by equipped melee mods, but isn't yet considered an exalted weapon.
2. Tectonics as a cover point is inferior to Volt's Electric Shield in practically every respect. Tectonics has a limited health pool determined by power strength, while Electric Shield is invincible for the entire duration regardless of any other power stat. Tectonics can't be moved, but Electric Shield can. Electric Shield doesn't reduce visual awareness because it's transparent, while Tectonics does. Electric Shield increases critical damage from guns by 200% regardless of any power stat, while Tectonics turns into an oversized rolling cotton ball that desperately needs a buff (Petrified Bulwarks aren't much better). The boulder rolling along the ground is very limiting to its versatility as an attack. There are 3 things Tectonics has over Electric Shield. Tectonics will delay enemy movement if placed well, but only in enclosed spaces. Tectonics can last forever, so long as the enemy doesn't vaporize it. Even though it's pitiful, being able to turn a Bulwark into an attack is a nice mechanic.
3. Petrify is great as a hard CC ability, except that it makes armored enemies unnecessarily more difficult to kill, if not borderline invincible, for the entire duration. This happens because petrified enemies can't have status effects inflicted on them. While this flaw can be bypassed with armor stripping beforehand, it's such a tedious process, the player might as well just use a decked weapon that can do the job all by its lonesome. It's much faster that way. This is a problem because the Rubble mechanic requires that petrified enemies actually die while petrified, because good luck getting the Rumblers to give rubble at a fair rate without spamming them, which is only possible on an efficiency build. 100 base energy cost for 100 armor from the two rubble (50 each) from the two Rumblers, versus 75 base energy cost for 3+ petrified enemies whose rubble give 75 each. Easy math. Besides CC, Petrify is also good for locking in preexisting status effects already on enemies, so that they can essentially suffer 20s+ long bleed & toxin procs (yes, it's still troublesome to do). As an aside, Gara's Mass Vitrify & the freezing effect from Frost's Avalanche suffer the same issue, but at least Avalanche reduces armor (though not shields).
4. The Rumblers are one of the few aggro abilities in the game. It's actually really good, especially since the Petrify bonus was added on cast, though the Petrify can still make enemies more difficult to kill. Even though the Rumblers are really good as offensive aggro support, as an ultimate costing 100, they deal poor damage & don't always pull attention away from Atlas.

As for fixing this:

1. Landslide is mostly fine as is. It's a standard attack 1 with some tank on top. It would be a nice QoL change if Atlas' fists were separated out & considered an exalted weapon.
2. Bulwarks need a massive health buff. The boulder mechanic needs a damage & mobility buff. I'd like it if instead of rolling the boulder, Atlas hoists it over his shoulder or head like the power lifter he should be & throws it wherever the player wants, which will explode on contact with a major obstacle while plastering any foe in the way. When lifted the player can take the time to aim if they need to, then throwing with the fire button. I think this would really bring in his theme & lore as a mover of mountains better than the rolling boulder does. A petrified Bulwark gains health, & as a boulder it gains damage, though lifting it is slower than for a regular Bulwark & won't travel as far. Trade-offs like these force players to think & plan, which is good. Since Bulwarks working this way would require Atlas to be next to them to lift, recasting while away from one simply creates a new one while the old one disintegrates. To offset that downside, a Bulwark can be Landslide punched for an immediate explosion of the Bulwark, with a petrified Bulwark needing a full 3-hit combo for a significantly bigger explosion & payout. If using Tectonic Fracture, Bulwarks can't be lifted, but they can still be punched &/or petrified, with the explosion &/or damage being smaller, respective to whether the Bulwark is petrified. A petrified Tectonic Fracture Bulwark will have the same explosion range &/or damage as a regular un-petrified Bulwark.
3. To fix Petry, I think it should be given a percentage based armor & shield reduction stat, starting at 50% as base. This way, petrifying exceptionally tough &/or high level enemies isn't as much of a detriment to killing them, & thus the same for the squad & mission. To balance this, the base duration of 20s will be nerfed to 8-12s, & enemies must be in line of sight & facing towards Atlas, the same way Inaros' Dessication (pocket sand) currently works. Because of the 75 base cost being potentially steep considering the LoS & duration nerf, it may be appropriate to reduce the cost to 50.
4. Besides the Petrify effect making enemies a potential headache, Rumblers don't deal enough damage to warrant their position as an ultimate, especially when they could do a better job at being decoys. They could use a damage buff. The taunting ability of Titanic Rumblers could be built in to regular Rumblers, & the Titanic Rumblers could have their buff changed to "can now stagger/stun enemies for finishers".

Please let me know if I missed anything.

Edited May 14, 2019 by (PS4)VagueWisdom

[ShasOBorkan]

34 minutes ago, (PS4)VagueWisdom said:

Aside from the Petrify effect making enemies a potential headache, I think Rumblers are also fine.

I disagree, the rumblers as they are currently are a weak 4th ability in my experience. I like the point you made about how the rumblers are one of the only aggro abilities, but you really need the taunt from the augmented ability for this aspect to shine. In my own thread a week ago I floated the suggestion of changing the two base rumblers to have the same capacity to taunt as the augmented version does, and that this should be a baseline upgrade to get the rumblers working better. Though I would also think they need a significant buff. They are supposedly Atlas' ultimate ability, I think they deserve to be improved.

Edited May 13, 2019 by ShasOBorkan

[taiiat]

• Landslide is already basically the best Ability of its type. the only other Warframe that really uh... competes with it in Damage is Whipclaw. partially due to Whipclaw having high Crit Stats and Ensnare Multiplying the Damage of it.
  Landslide deals monumental amounts of Damage, to Armor too. fares better than most Guns vs Armor.
• Tectonics might not be a DPS Multiplier, but it is a physical obstruction which is the main feature of it for sure. them being able to adjust in size or something would be nice though.
• Status immunity is a downside clearly for Petrify, but considering that Landslide has little for Status Chance itself anyways, it doesn't affect Atlas himself very much. Landslide will still punch with the force of a thousand suns.
• and then it's comical that you say Rumblers are fine, when they're objectively the worst Ability Atlas has. they can scale decently with Mods for EHP, but offensively they're practically useless.

since like i said, Status immunity doesn't impact Landslide at all, nerfing the Ability to add something Atlas doesn't really need is.... meh. no thanks. the Energy economy of Petrify is already expensive enough, without it getting nerfed it any way.

Rumblers is the weakest link.

[(PSN)VagueWisdom]

2 hours ago, taiiat said:

• Landslide is already basically the best Ability of its type. the only other Warframe that really uh... competes with it in Damage is Whipclaw. partially due to Whipclaw having high Crit Stats and Ensnare Multiplying the Damage of it.
  Landslide deals monumental amounts of Damage, to Armor too. fares better than most Guns vs Armor.
• Tectonics might not be a DPS Multiplier, but it is a physical obstruction which is the main feature of it for sure. them being able to adjust in size or something would be nice though.
• Status immunity is a downside clearly for Petrify, but considering that Landslide has little for Status Chance itself anyways, it doesn't affect Atlas himself very much. Landslide will still punch with the force of a thousand suns.
• and then it's comical that you say Rumblers are fine, when they're objectively the worst Ability Atlas has. they can scale decently with Mods for EHP, but offensively they're practically useless.

since like i said, Status immunity doesn't impact Landslide at all, nerfing the Ability to add something Atlas doesn't really need is.... meh. no thanks. the Energy economy of Petrify is already expensive enough, without it getting nerfed it any way.

Rumblers is the weakest link.

1. I didn't ask for Landslide to be nerfed. In fact, I didn't ask for any changes at all to Landslide. Most of my stated changes are centered around Atlas' 2 & 3. Also, reread the very top, where I specify lvl80+. Go screw around with lvl80+ Grineer & Corrupted & get back to me. 1hr Mot works as well.
2. You make it sound as if Tectonics being an obstruction is all it needs to be. It's almost as if you ignored my comparison to Volt's Electric Shield. You don't actually expect anyone to take you seriously on this do you? I sure hope not.
3. Again, go screw around with lvl80+ Grineer & Corrupted & get back to me. I didn't even ask to have Status Effects enabled. I asked for a percentage based armor & shield reduction, with the base value set to 50% alongside modest nerfs to offset that buff.
4. Offensively? I pointed out that Rumblers are an >Aggro< ability. That's means their sole purpose is to distract enemies to take pressure off Atlas & friends. As long as they can do that for at least 5-10s, it's a successful ability. Killing enemies is a secondary objective that should be viewed as a cherry on top. Now, if you told me that you believed Rumblers deal too little damage as the aggro support they are & should prioritize petrified enemies (which would only really be useful with my proposed changes to Petrify), then I'd be more inclined to agree.

I didn't ask for changes to the energy cost of Petrify. However, you make a good point that 75 is quite high for a line of sight & duration nerf. So I agree that maybe the energy cost could use a reduction if such changes came to pass. Is 50 fair to you?

By the way, you should leave the snark behind next time.

[(PSN)VagueWisdom]

3 hours ago, ShasOBorkan said:

I disagree, the rumblers as they are currently are a weak 4th ability in my experience. I like the point you made about how the rumblers are one of the only aggro abilities, but you really need the taunt from the augmented ability for this aspect to shine. In my own thread a week ago I floated the suggestion of changing the two base rumblers to have the same capacity to taunt as the augmented version does, and that this should be a baseline upgrade to get the rumblers working better. Though I would also think they need a significant buff. They are supposedly Atlas' ultimate ability, I think they deserve to be improved.

I see what you mean. I'll amend my OP.

[taiiat]

3 hours ago, (PS4)VagueWisdom said:

1. I didn't ask for Landslide to be nerfed. In fact, I didn't ask for any changes at all to Landslide. Most of my stated changes are centered around Atlas' 2 & 3. Also, reread the very top, where I specify lvl80+. Go screw around with lvl80+ Grineer & Corrupted & get back to me. 1hr Mot works as well.
2. You make it sound as if Tectonics being an obstruction is all it needs to be. It's almost as if you ignored my comparison to Volt's Electric Shield. You don't actually expect anyone to take you seriously on this do you? I sure hope not.
3. Offensively? I pointed out that Rumblers are an >Aggro< ability. That's means their sole purpose is to distract enemies to take pressure off Atlas & friends. As long as they can do that for at least 5-10s, it's a successful ability. Killing enemies is a secondary objective that should be viewed as a cherry on top. Now, if you told me that you believed Rumblers deal too little damage as the aggro support they are & should prioritize petrified enemies (which would only really be useful with my proposed changes to Petrify), then I'd be more inclined to agree.

So I agree that maybe the energy cost could use a reduction if such changes came to pass. Is 50 fair to you?

the only mention i had for nerfing was nerfing the Duration of Petrify to add something that Atlas doesn't really mind all that much whether he has or not (applying Status Effects or weakening Armor, Et Cetera) for most content - that's the only mention i had of it.
Landslide Kills Armored Enemies quite acceptably at very high Levels(i'll start encountering problems at like Lv140 or something sure, but shrug). remember that it's an Ability that takes Weapon Mods, so what Mods one picks makes a big impact on the end results.

all i pointed out is what the main feature of Tectonics is. i'd like if the Augment was merged into the Ability(just make Hold Cast do the rolling thing based on which one you're looking at i guess) so it could do that job more effectively, and like i said being able to scale the size of them. chokepointing Enemies is one of the big things that Players want in PvE games, so you bet it makes a difference.
you could simply make Tectonics have parity to Rumblers, for EHP scaling. taking Health, Armor, and Shield Mods just like they do.
and uh... Petrify should do something actually useful for Tectonics. making the rolling thing better is just pointless because the rolling thing is generally just pointless.

Rumblers is a terrible distraction Ability though since they have suicidal AI, don't have increased Threat Level over normal, Et Cetera. but an entire Ability dedicated to mediocre at best distractions isn't really a very good feature. it's far from unique and far below average for that type of effect.
they'd at the very least have to have increased Threat Level (atleast 4/5 from their 3/5 now which is the same as Players, and the Augment can be 5/5) for them to be useful as a distraction Abiilty.
and the Augment still needs to be buffed, the singular Rumbler is just straight up weaker than the two normal ones, which is illogical. should atleast be equal EHP in total.

 

 

Petrify should already cost less for how often Atlas is asked to Cast it, but reducing the Cost either way still helps something. 75E is a Cost that's tuned around assuming everyone uses Energize, which is silly. that we pretty much all do use it is another story, but the game shouldn't be tuning around expecting ridiculous Equipment like that being present.

anyways i only wrote some quick stuff the first time.

[(PSN)VagueWisdom]

On 2019-05-14 at 1:26 AM, taiiat said:

the only mention i had for nerfing was nerfing the Duration of Petrify to add something that Atlas doesn't really mind all that much whether he has or not (applying Status Effects or weakening Armor, Et Cetera) for most content - that's the only mention i had of it.
Landslide Kills Armored Enemies quite acceptably at very high Levels(i'll start encountering problems at like Lv140 or something sure, but shrug). remember that it's an Ability that takes Weapon Mods, so what Mods one picks makes a big impact on the end results.

all i pointed out is what the main feature of Tectonics is. i'd like if the Augment was merged into the Ability(just make Hold Cast do the rolling thing based on which one you're looking at i guess) so it could do that job more effectively, and like i said being able to scale the size of them. chokepointing Enemies is one of the big things that Players want in PvE games, so you bet it makes a difference.
you could simply make Tectonics have parity to Rumblers, for EHP scaling. taking Health, Armor, and Shield Mods just like they do.
and uh... Petrify should do something actually useful for Tectonics. making the rolling thing better is just pointless because the rolling thing is generally just pointless.

Rumblers is a terrible distraction Ability though since they have suicidal AI, don't have increased Threat Level over normal, Et Cetera. but an entire Ability dedicated to mediocre at best distractions isn't really a very good feature. it's far from unique and far below average for that type of effect.
they'd at the very least have to have increased Threat Level (atleast 4/5 from their 3/5 now which is the same as Players, and the Augment can be 5/5) for them to be useful as a distraction Abiilty.
and the Augment still needs to be buffed, the singular Rumbler is just straight up weaker than the two normal ones, which is illogical. should atleast be equal EHP in total.

Petrify should already cost less for how often Atlas is asked to Cast it, but reducing the Cost either way still helps something. 75E is a Cost that's tuned around assuming everyone uses Energize, which is silly. that we pretty much all do use it is another story, but the game shouldn't be tuning around expecting ridiculous Equipment like that being present.

anyways i only wrote some quick stuff the first time.

I understand the point you're making. I know how Landslide works, which is again why I didn't ask for Landslide to change. If anything, I'd like for Atlas' fists to be capable of being modded separately like an exalted weapon.

So you want Tectonics to be a chargeable ability where the charge affects size? This is interesting. I'm not entirely certain how significantly that would change gameplay over what it is now given the real possibility of airborne enemies being introduced, besides the dropships. You have to consider open area & Open World viability as well.

I've edited my Rumblers section in the OP. Check that if you would.

Agreed on Petrify.

Besides those things, there are two major points I'm seeing here.

1. Using traits of ability augment mods to update frame abilities in some way. I personally don't think augment mods should exist. I think most could be integrated as an ability charge/channel, where a player uses a longer cast &/or more cost to create additional effects. Though, I'm not sure whether such a dynamic should stay locked within the syndicates. I believe many, if not all, older frames would benefit from this manner of reinvigoration.
2. Energy economy being balanced around Energizing Dash, Efficiency mods, Rage/HA, Trinity, Arcane Energize, or pads is stupid. Again, I agree on this. Most of these methods require work, sacrifice, or tradeoffs. It actually forces players to use these methods out of necessity. Bad balance.

The main reason I want these changes is so that Atlas is Mot viable. He is Sortie viable, though I believe he starts to shake around that level range. I don't exactly appreciate this good/bad frame thing going on. More bad balance. The majority of the game's issues are tied around level & armor scaling (shields need a buff though), the enemy diversity, & how all of our equipment has to unrealistically cater to that mess.

I think level scaling needs to take a hike entirely & that the dev team should approach enemy design & game balance with a mixture of Nintendo style & MOBA elements (I know, it sounds weird). Damage 3.0 could potentially help with that immensely. I understand that this concept is difficult to accept &/or understand, but the premise is that without level scaling, everything can be balanced around a singular standard more easily because there's less numbers mucking the buff/nerf process. Difficulty is not dependent on health, armor, & shield pools. It's dependent on mechanics & their interactions. It's like nullifiers. Very easy & simple mechanic with big implications. This really shouldn't be that hard. Devs should replay some Legend of Zelda. Heck, even the FPS genre has tons of interesting examples of mechanics making big differences in a fight.

Very few people I've brought this up with agree on this.

Edited May 16, 2019 by (PS4)VagueWisdom

[taiiat]

1 hour ago, (PS4)VagueWisdom said:

If anything, I'd like for Atlas' fists to be capable of being modded separately like an exalted weapon.

So you want Tectonics to be a chargeable ability where the charge affects size? This is interesting. I'm not entirely certain how significantly that would change gameplay over what it is now given the real possibility of airborne enemies being introduced, besides the dropships. You have to consider open area & Open World viability as well.

I've edited my Rumblers section in the OP. Check that if you would.

 

Besides those things, there are two major points I'm seeing here.

1. Using traits of ability augment mods to update frame abilities in some way. I personally don't think augment mods should exist. I think most could be integrated as an ability charge/channel, where a player uses a longer cast &/or more cost to create additional effects. Though, I'm not sure whether such a dynamic should stay locked within the syndicates. I believe many, if not all, older frames would benefit from this manner of reinvigoration.
2. Energy economy being balanced around Energizing Dash, Efficiency mods, Rage/HA, Trinity, Arcane Energize, or pads is stupid. Again, I agree on this. Most of these methods require work, sacrifice, or tradeoffs. It actually forces players to use these methods out of necessity. Bad balance.

I think level scaling needs to take a hike entirely.

in theory it would be nice for Ability Slot 1 Abilities to have dedicated Modding too. that does remove Riven Stat sticks from them though, and at the very least the Stats of the Abilities would have to be compensated (increased) for that. and some of those stat stick Rivens are even pretty complicated (Khora/Whipclaw mainly) and i'm not sure i have high confidence in the compensation to those Abilities understanding & comprehending what the optimal Stats are, what Stats they need to function correctly, Et Cetera.

well, i looked to leave the rolling thing in as a Hold Cast based on looking at an existing wall, so that you could place several of them and not lose that feature even though the rolling thing is just pointless from my point of view.
but, Hold Casting on empty area being used to determine how you place Tectonics? yeah sure i guess.
you could also have punching the wall make it bigger, Petrifying it reinforcing it and making it bigger, Et Cetera.

XL Rumbler would still be warranted to having atleast the same total EHP as the two normal Rumblers, but what you say would be better than now, so sure.

 

 

i'm not against Augments existing. some of them actually offer something distinctly different. but some of them offer features that the Ability feels like it needs to have in the first place, usually from it not seeming like its doing enough on its own.

no Level Scaling sounds like an easy solution on paper, but would also mean that we need to remove 90% of the Mods from the game and make new ones. ones that are thinking about a landscape where Enemies have a predefined amount of Health. like Eidolon Hunting and Spiders i guess, come to think of it. since their EHP is always the same.
which could work, but there's a lot of vertical progression in the game that throws that out of the window. i enjoy plenty of games which don't have infinity vertical progression so i'm totally open to it, it's just that Warframe is completely built from the ground up around just vertical progression.

[(PSN)VagueWisdom]

On 2019-05-14 at 4:28 PM, taiiat said:

in theory it would be nice for Ability Slot 1 Abilities to have dedicated Modding too. that does remove Riven Stat sticks from them though, and at the very least the Stats of the Abilities would have to be compensated (increased) for that. and some of those stat stick Rivens are even pretty complicated (Khora/Whipclaw mainly) and i'm not sure i have high confidence in the compensation to those Abilities understanding & comprehending what the optimal Stats are, what Stats they need to function correctly, Et Cetera.

well, i looked to leave the rolling thing in as a Hold Cast based on looking at an existing wall, so that you could place several of them and not lose that feature even though the rolling thing is just pointless from my point of view.
but, Hold Casting on empty area being used to determine how you place Tectonics? yeah sure i guess.
you could also have punching the wall make it bigger, Petrifying it reinforcing it and making it bigger, Et Cetera.

XL Rumbler would still be warranted to having atleast the same total EHP as the two normal Rumblers, but what you say would be better than now, so sure.

i'm not against Augments existing. some of them actually offer something distinctly different. but some of them offer features that the Ability feels like it needs to have in the first place, usually from it not seeming like its doing enough on its own.

no Level Scaling sounds like an easy solution on paper, but would also mean that we need to remove 90% of the Mods from the game and make new ones. ones that are thinking about a landscape where Enemies have a predefined amount of Health. like Eidolon Hunting and Spiders i guess, come to think of it. since their EHP is always the same.
which could work, but there's a lot of vertical progression in the game that throws that out of the window. i enjoy plenty of games which don't have infinity vertical progression so i'm totally open to it, it's just that Warframe is completely built from the ground up around just vertical progression.

I'm not too certain about all slot 1 abilities getting dedicated modding, but for sure, the ones that currently do kind of complicate the decision process of melee weapons. This is because I use a Zaw dagger with an Assassin build (high attack speed with Covert Lethality, Life Strike, & Exodia Might), which is deceptively bad on first glance due to low damage, until of course, the melee finishers roll in. This obviously would cause my Atlas to hiccup on Landslide.

I'd prefer holding cast to make the wall bigger, & punching to make it explode. Though, after a certain size, I'd expect a special effect where punching for an explosion is no longer possible, but instead, the rocks tumble down & knock down, ragdoll, & deal light damage to any enemy those rocks hit. Doing a repeat cast on the same position without a charge/hold will stack the walls vertically while still combining them.

I'm not against increased EHP for Titanic Rumblers. I just find my suggestion a little more interesting in its own way. Maybe both can happen to some extent.

Exactly right on augments. Though, I get that feeling with many of the abilities, but that's probably just me.

Not remove. >Rebalance<. &, the mods that would need rebalancing are mostly the damage mods, including the element mods. Multishot as well. Crit damage, crit chance, & status chance tend to naturally follow the balance of available total damage for a given weapon, so they'd barely need to change, if at all. I'd say reducing the damage values on those respective mods by ~2/3rds is very close to what would be necessary for this. That way, damage mods are considered QoL buffs, instead of mandatory ones. Mandatory mods are big no-no. Takes the power of choice out of players' hands (no, I don't believe purposely handicapping oneself counts; I consider that a desperate attempt to maintain interest in a level scaling game that has already been cheesed many times over). This could also give the dev team an opportunity to streamline the mod system, by removing "clone mods" (same effect, different name & weapon category). As for multishot, I did try proposing a rework before, but I don't expect it to happen, & honestly, the removal of level scaling probably won't either. So, any reworks we try to make will have to cater to the current mess we have. The biggest hurdles being armor scaling, balancing the value of crowd control abilities, & creating difficulty through other/new mechanics without resorting to the "fight cheese with cheese" method (nullifiers & ability immunity).

Edited May 20, 2019 by (PS4)VagueWisdom

[taiiat]

2 hours ago, (PS4)VagueWisdom said:

Not remove. >Rebalance<. &, the mods that would need rebalancing are mostly the damage mods, including the element mods. Multishot as well. Crit damage, crit chance, & status chance tend to naturally follow the balance of available total damage for a given weapon, so they'd barely need to change, if at all. I'd say reducing the damage values on those respective mods by ~2/3rds is very close to what would be necessary for this. That way, damage mods are considered QoL buffs, instead of mandatory ones.

for sure, dividing the values of Damage Mods by 3 would help a lot in clamping the ranges from getting so silly. and tuning enemies to context that.
Status Chance Mods are far too powerful overall, while the native Status Mods are so-so at best, Status Elementals do quite go too far especially since they also offer Damage. since they are Nightmare Mods in style, they should be taking that 60-66% of the full Status Mods, which could stand to be ~90%. except that's still too high, as they should really be 30-40% so we'd have to break the rules for Nightmare Mods for them but tbh the rules are used to inconsistently with them that it's kinda whatever.

Crits is sorta the same way, but i don't want to push Crits and Status the same level down as with raw Damage, as they're the types of Stats that unreliability in some cases can feel very bad. so that's a tricky balance point.