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DE, Please buff Cautious Shot to -99.1% Self-Damage


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It's time delete self damage period.  No mod, just remove it.  

It's a dated mechanic, and it serves to do nothing but make weapons less viable.  Sure self damage with explosions is realictic... but is everything else?  Not by a long shot... this is one of those realism things games would be better without.  These types of weapons should have their drawbacks in fire rate, reload and ammo capacity... not in the ability to 1 hit kill yourself by looking 1cm in the wrong place.

Even worse is having self damage causes a bad playstyle - standing in top parts of maps doing nothing but shooting down... but wait?  Haven't we nerfed every damage frame under the sun for doing exactly that?  So it's a problem when frames do it - but they will wrestle so hard to keep self damage a thing that they will allow it for weapons?  Logical. 

Self Damage shouldn't be mitigated with a mod - it should be mitigated with game design.  There's nothing fun or cool about self damage, and it does relatively little to keep these guns balanced in any way - instead we are just penalized for using them... so... needless to say I haven't touched an explosive weapon in years if not for Mastery fodder.  Who wants to run around with a weapon where any second a stupid osprey could fly in front of you and make you kill yourself. 

It's bad desisn, atleast in a super unrealistic game like Warframe.  Games with realism it's justifiable, but it serves no purpose in WF. 
 

Edited by (PS4)Zuzu_with_a_Z
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6 hours ago, (PS4)Zuzu_with_a_Z said:

It's time delete self damage period.  No mod, just remove it.  

Honestly... Yeah, I can go with that. Most explosive weapons are already balanced by other means, such as the Lenz having very limited ammo capacity and a slow draw, the Tonkor being single-shot with a safety fuse, etc. I personally see self-damage a bit like team damage in older titles, in that we stopped having it once we realised that that bit of realism wasn't really contributing to the game. Plus, there are at least a few AoE weapons which don't deal self-damage, such as the Tombfinger, not to mention Ember can't damage herself with her own Fireballs. I'd say get rid of self-damage and retouch explosives a little if necessary.

Actually while we're at it - can we make explosive barrels no longer deal self damage? They're already not very useful against enemies and a decent cluster of them can damn near kill "glass cannon" Warframes if you're unlucky, and they tend to take large chunks out of the average Rhino/Nezha Iron Skin. Dispensing with the self damage makes them slightly more useful offensively, more useful as an easy means of destroying nearby loot containers, as well as less likely to do clearly unintended team damage. Because exploding barrels already DON'T deal team damage, but I've had instances where chain explosions sometimes seem to. Basically, these things are already predominantly useless, so making them safe should at least remove the cost to using them.

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22 minutes ago, Steel_Rook said:

Honestly... Yeah, I can go with that. Most explosive weapons are already balanced by other means, such as the Lenz having very limited ammo capacity and a slow draw, the Tonkor being single-shot with a safety fuse, etc. I personally see self-damage a bit like team damage in older titles, in that we stopped having it once we realised that that bit of realism wasn't really contributing to the game. Plus, there are at least a few AoE weapons which don't deal self-damage, such as the Tombfinger, not to mention Ember can't damage herself with her own Fireballs. I'd say get rid of self-damage and retouch explosives a little if necessary.

Actually while we're at it - can we make explosive barrels no longer deal self damage? They're already not very useful against enemies and a decent cluster of them can damn near kill "glass cannon" Warframes if you're unlucky, and they tend to take large chunks out of the average Rhino/Nezha Iron Skin. Dispensing with the self damage makes them slightly more useful offensively, more useful as an easy means of destroying nearby loot containers, as well as less likely to do clearly unintended team damage. Because exploding barrels already DON'T deal team damage, but I've had instances where chain explosions sometimes seem to. Basically, these things are already predominantly useless, so making them safe should at least remove the cost to using them.

That's going to far l think. I just use explosive barrels to get quick stacks on abilities that need self dmg. Slow Equinox for example.

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7 hours ago, (PS4)Zuzu_with_a_Z said:

It's time delete self damage period.  No mod, just remove it.  

It's a dated mechanic, and it serves to do nothing but make weapons less viable.  Sure self damage with explosions is realictic... but is everything else?  Not by a long shot... this is one of those realism things games would be better without.  These types of weapons should have their drawbacks in fire rate, reload and ammo capacity... not in the ability to 1 hit kill yourself by looking 1cm in the wrong place.

If we remove self damage, it will remove player carefulness with their weapons that is the reason why many games still has self damage till this day. Besides, it’s fun watching your character flung into space when self damaging with a high impact explosive weapon, at least the weapons have a self damage cap so it won’t one shot you if you shoot yourself accidentally (I would say around 50-100 can be affected by armor or DR)

Cautious Shot should be full self damage immunity. Period.

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1 minute ago, DrivaMain said:

f we remove self damage, it will remove player carefulness with their weapons that is the reason why many games still has self damage till this day.

Problem is with the current design

  • there are plenty of weapons that do more damage than most explosive weapons - it can't be argued that "if you want to play a high damage weapon this is the tradeoff"
  • There is too much randomness - be it bouncing grenades, some teammate flying in out of left field blocking the  shot, the projectiles deciding to self detonate for unknown reasons an inch in front of your face..
  • Inconsistent application - why not add it to Catchmoon, Astilla, Arca Plasmor, Sonicor, Staticor, and a host of other weapons..

Sure CS should be 100%, but removing self damage altogether and subtle changes to reload rate etc on explosive weapons would be better IMHO.  Of course Chroma players might have an issue with this lol.

 

 

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21 minutes ago, DrivaMain said:

If we remove self damage, it will remove player carefulness with their weapons that is the reason why many games still has self damage till this day. Besides, it’s fun watching your character flung into space when self damaging with a high impact explosive weapon, at least the weapons have a self damage cap so it won’t one shot you if you shoot yourself accidentally (I would say around 50-100 can be affected by armor or DR)

Cautious Shot should be full self damage immunity. Period.

Then players should be rewarded by being careful, but in current warframe, it doesn't.

Most self damaging explosives doesn't really have that much of damage or range to justify self damages.

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45 minutes ago, (XB1)Tucker D Dawg said:

Of course Chroma players might have an issue with this lol.

 

Well looks like I found another reason why removing self damage might hurt the game lol (Chroma player myself). Again, a hard self damage cap would be better than just removing it entirely.

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2 hours ago, DrivaMain said:

If we remove self damage, it will remove player carefulness with their weapons that is the reason why many games still has self damage till this day. Besides, it’s fun watching your character flung into space when self damaging with a high impact explosive weapon, at least the weapons have a self damage cap so it won’t one shot you if you shoot yourself accidentally (I would say around 50-100 can be affected by armor or DR)

Cautious Shot should be full self damage immunity. Period.

What's careful about standing on the ledge above the hydron map and hipfiring grenades down from a penta, at no risk to the player anyway?  It doesn't even require aiming.  This is the typical tactic I see people using with explosive weapons in any map.  They find a place to hunker down, where their line of sight will never be obstructed, and they just spam. 

If the goal is to make players more careful, it sort of fails in many regards.  It might make them need to be more careful on the ground... but then again that's why you don't see many explosive weapon users playing on the ground, they go up high - into the High Hide as Eddie from Jurassic Park 2 would say.  It's safe, and they don't have to be careful.  This is the playstyle DE is encouraging by keeping self damage in.  Atleast if they took it away, the chances are better that atleast some of these players would be playing normally.  

Edited by (PS4)Zuzu_with_a_Z
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Just get rid of self damage...It doesn't matter anymore...there are so many weapons now that easily keep up with the Tonkor, Penta, Kulstar, and Lenz let alone frames just melting the tileset....Big whoop a player had fun Tonkor sliding into a surviving group of 3 enemy units who are nearly dead as it is from Saryn and Volt...

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7 hours ago, DrivaMain said:

If we remove self damage, it will remove player carefulness with their weapons that is the reason why many games still has self damage till this day.

And if that were a legitimate game mechanic I might agree. Of all the weapons with self damage, though, I've not really found any which are so powerful as to merit "being careful" as a downside. I honestly find weapons with built-in safety mechanics like the Tonkor and the Corinth Airburst to be more trouble than the actual self-damage they threaten. I find Warframe already has plenty of situational considerations from surprise Bombards to hidden Leech Eximus to Nullifiers spawning immediately on top of me. I don't see what extra complexity self damage can possibly add which doesn't boil down to making some weapons cumbersome to use.

Plus, as already mentioned - the self-damage component is easily circumvented by standing on an elevated position or even just bullet-jumping straight up.

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19 hours ago, (PS4)Zuzu_with_a_Z said:

It's time delete self damage period.  No mod, just remove it.  

It's a dated mechanic, and it serves to do nothing but make weapons less viable.  Sure self damage with explosions is realictic... but is everything else? 

I'd remove gun reloading for the exact same reason, except I'd replace the word "viable" with the word "fun". Remember Doom, Quake, Duke Nukem, and various other old-school fast-paced shooters? They were a blast without requiring you to reload your guns. Gun reloading was invented by games with pretentions to realism, like the early WW2 Call of Duty and Medal of Honor kinda games. Why on earth it's in Warframe, I truly could not say. I'd like to believe there's a reason behind it, that DE didn't just unthinkingly do what everyone else was doing because everyone else was doing it, but I'd like to see it gone regardless.

14 hours ago, LarryOtter said:

Why not buff Cautious Shot to -100% ? 

Better still, why not remove CS and place the effect on a mod you'd actually want to use, like Amalgam Split Chamber? I'd be in favor of removing self damage entirely, but DE unfortunately has a history of implementing game improvements as mods, so that seems like the next best option.

11 hours ago, (XB1)Tucker D Dawg said:

Chroma players might have an issue with this lol.

Add self damage back in specifically for Chroma as an additional effect of Vex Armor. You can even excuse it as balance, power at a cost, etc.

Edited by SordidDreams
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22 hours ago, (PS4)Zuzu_with_a_Z said:

It's time delete self damage period.  No mod, just remove it.  

 

DE: "Self damage is important because players would be too OP without it"

Also DE: *designs a warframe who dual wields explosive weapons with basically infinite ammo and no self damage*

:clap::clap::clap:

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