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Why Endgame for Warframe is Impossible


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While this is F2P, Devs needs monthly money income to satisfy monthly money outcome. Exciting new players are willing to pay more often then bored “ veteran” already has everything ingame. Because lots of “veterans” are not willing to help new players, Devs are giving them “helping hands”.

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On 2019-05-15 at 4:39 AM, (PS4)LeBlingKing69 said:

 


All Work and No Play

There is one problem with creating an endgame that allows this, however. The developers have to cater to two communities at this rate: the community that has everything they need for an "endgame", and the overwhelming majority of players who don't.

 

 

just about this part, they dont have to cater to those who haven't reached the endgame, they have to cater to those who need an endgame, and when the other people get to where vets are, they can play the endgame, hence the term "Endgame"

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On 2019-05-17 at 4:26 PM, JaredWolf said:

Yeah, they can do a game mode like that. But that doesn't change the fact people will not do it if the loot is not worth it.

Then Screw them.... let them Grind and Farm themselves into exhaustion.... I personally would put the grind on hold to play such a mode... assuming they design it properly.

On 2019-05-17 at 4:26 PM, JaredWolf said:

And if the game mode out the door would be "dead content" then the developers won't waste their time doing it. If they DID do it, it'd just further the "content drought" everyone complains about.

This is inevitable. Content is a terrible way to make a game last a long time... if ypu want to hold people's interest then you need depth...

Case in point I've spent just as much time on Bayonetta and Devil May Cry as I have on Warframe despite having only 6-10 Hourz of Content.... granted not being forced to play it every day really helps. 

On 2019-05-17 at 4:26 PM, JaredWolf said:

If you take the core mechanic and reason people play a game out of that game people won't play it.

Loot isn't a Mechanic.... is literally just loot.... Junk.... you pick it up, use it then throw it away. Sure those people will leave if you remove it but their going to leave anyway if you can't pump out Junk worth keeping that also doesn't render previously aquired junk useless by comparison at a steady rate... 

Simply put.... DE have designed themselves into a corner.... not sure how they're going to fix it...

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On ‎2019‎-‎05‎-‎16 at 10:39 AM, Chipputer said:

Just wait for all the people complaining about how they're not good at parkour so it's not a fair tile set for them.

I'm expecting exactly that very thing to happen.  Even though there are frames like Titania and Ivara who will make that area cakewalk.  😁 

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31 minutes ago, DatDarkOne said:

I'm expecting exactly that very thing to happen.  Even though there are frames like Titania and Ivara who will make that area cakewalk.  😁 

I am more fond of my Excalibur "Slash Dash while aim gliding" technique for distance traversal myself, my only fear is that the parkour environment will suffer from "Tiny spot that you hit your head on every. single. time." issues.

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On 2019-05-16 at 7:20 PM, Loza03 said:

*responds by trying to rebalance players instead of the enemies despite them being untouched for years and not in tune with Warframe's present design.*

 

*Nothing happens*

DE:

Image result for surprised pikachu variations

Would like to see where that first bit happens, the closest they've ever gotten to genuine rebalancing of player side tools as a broader fix was when they had that brief war on nukes, but then made Mesa, and Equinox, and gave Volt his new ult. They haven't tried to seriously rebalance our tools, or at least never the more serious stuff.

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1 hour ago, Cubewano said:

Would like to see where that first bit happens, the closest they've ever gotten to genuine rebalancing of player side tools as a broader fix was when they had that brief war on nukes, but then made Mesa, and Equinox, and gave Volt his new ult. They haven't tried to seriously rebalance our tools, or at least never the more serious stuff.

Ember, Saryn's spores no longer spreading on kill, Vivergate… There's a lot of examples.

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29 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

Ember, Saryn's spores no longer spreading on kill, Vivergate… There's a lot of examples.

None of those were part of some unified re-balance effort. Ember is the closest as it was a part of the aforementioned nuke war, but again that effort never reached its full conclusion. 

Edited by Cubewano
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1 hour ago, Cubewano said:

None of those were part of some unified re-balance effort. Ember is the closest as it was a part of the aforementioned nuke war, but again that effort never reached its full conclusion. 

You know I somewhat oversimplified the response for the sake of the meme, right?

There's a ton of examples of DE rebalancing players, even if they're not outwardly linked. They respond to balance issues by rebalancing players in general.

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Everything said on this post is wrong, because Path of Exile exists - A balance between casual content and end game one, with giving player's ability to experience the hardest bosses without having optimal gear, while at the same time giving people incentive to min max and also reward them for putting the extra hours in their characters. Challange in PoE gradually increases without having to gimp yourself in order to "find difficulty #TridolonCaptureWithBansheeAndMoteAmp", while at the same time does not bar players to experience any type of content. The core of both games is similar, despite the astecitc differences, so why is one of them having a good hang on "Endgame" and balances it with casual content, while the other is making excuses on "Why end game can't exist in this type of a game"?

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4 hours ago, Loza03 said:

You know I somewhat oversimplified the response for the sake of the meme, right?

There's a ton of examples of DE rebalancing players, even if they're not outwardly linked. They respond to balance issues by rebalancing players in general.

That's one way to create an excuse. 

So nothing that applies to what I said. Was not reading my post fully for the sake of the meme as well? 

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4 hours ago, Highresist said:

Everything said on this post is wrong, because Path of Exile exists - A balance between casual content and end game one, with giving player's ability to experience the hardest bosses without having optimal gear, while at the same time giving people incentive to min max and also reward them for putting the extra hours in their characters. Challange in PoE gradually increases without having to gimp yourself in order to "find difficulty #TridolonCaptureWithBansheeAndMoteAmp", while at the same time does not bar players to experience any type of content. The core of both games is similar, despite the astecitc differences, so why is one of them having a good hang on "Endgame" and balances it with casual content, while the other is making excuses on "Why end game can't exist in this type of a game"?

I mean DE isn't making excuses, the op might be sure, but DE have been pretty open about the fact they've just failed to keep balance in Warframe. They refer to it as the proverbial bucket they keep kicking down the road. 

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7 minutes ago, Cubewano said:

That's one way to create an excuse. 

So nothing that applies to what I said. Was not reading my post fully for the sake of the meme as well? 

If you're looking for a fight, you're not getting one.

I made a meme that you interpreted in a particular way that you disagree with. That's not worth getting in a tiff over.

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5 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

If you're looking for a fight, you're not getting one.

I made a meme that you interpreted in a particular way that you disagree with. That's not worth getting in a tiff over.

Have a swell one. 

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6 hours ago, Cubewano said:

None of those were part of some unified re-balance effort

And nothing in the post you refer to implied any "unified re-balance effort". The only implication was: "DE reworks some player tools sometimes.", not to mention a huge balance patch of pretty much all weapons that happened some time ago.

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An endgame is only impossible if we keep using the model that DE has been using for Warframe. I would like to see an endgame based around obtaining EXTREMELY rare frames/weapons. Preferably obtained through a raiding system similar to WoW. Very lengthy, difficult, multi person mission that would take quite a long time. I really don't like the pandering that DE does to casual players. There should be content for more hardcore players.

Edited by WhySoFishy
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4 minutes ago, HugintheCrow said:

And nothing in the post you refer to implied any "unified re-balance effort". The only implication was: "DE reworks some player tools sometimes.", not to mention a huge balance patch of pretty much all weapons that happened some time ago.

Exactly. And the weapon revamp was a rebalancing of sorts sure, but it wasn't really to combat the overall balance of the game, just the imbalance of weapons to other weapons. 

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15 minutes ago, WhySoFishy said:

I would like to see an endgame based around obtaining EXTREMELY rare frames/weapons. Preferably obtained through a raiding system similar to WoW

This has never been a thing and, hopefully, never will.

Raids, when we had them, were for obtaining Arcanes. Only the rich or hardcore raiders were able to get full sets of them. Some of them were tremendous power boosts. Others were situational, at best. None of them were required and you could happily ignore them, if you chose (which the vast majority did).

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On 2019-05-17 at 3:51 PM, --RV--Earth said:

just about this part, they dont have to cater to those who haven't reached the endgame, they have to cater to those who need an endgame, and when the other people get to where vets are, they can play the endgame, hence the term "Endgame"

I think you'll find those demanding and "endgame" are a relatively small proportion of the whole player base. Its actually far more profitable for DE to cater to newer players...after all, who are more likely to spend money on the game? Those who already have everything, or those who are trying to progress?

It never ceases to amaze me how blinkered so many of these people are, from automatically assuming that just because everything is easy for them, then it can't be challenging for anyone, to assuming other players are somehow dumb for not wanting to follow the meta, to criticising DE for not building an endgame into Warframe from the beginning, or not developing one years ago...when (as far as I can tell) this game was never intended to have an "endgame".

Indeed, the game is still very much under development and may continue to be for years. For all we know the devs may have lots more lore, quests and other stuff to release.

Kind of difficult to develop an endgame, when you don't know what the end of the game looks like.

 

From this we have to assume people like you mean some incredibly challenging, replayable, standalone content, which has little to do with the rest of the game, beyond having some minimum requirements in order to participate.

Now DE have tried several times to provide this...only to be met with what basically amounts to contempt and derision - either because the content wasn't challenging enough, or it was felt the rewards were lacking.

So, given the devs still haven't finished the game, its understandable if creating challenging content for a bored minority, is not their top priority.

 

Edited by FlusteredFerret
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I really love this thread and hope DE reads it and now back to the topic:

 

Endgame does not mean "end of the game" OR the latest content that we received. Endgame is content that is for the time after you completed all and still be ok with doing it. In WoW its raids. No matter how long they will rise the level of the characters or add new expansions: Raids will be the endgame. Thats just for that kind of topic.

 

So now to the powercreep stuff. I think DE destroyed balance with the introduction of corrupted and or primed mods. They have no limitations and besides of efficiency we have no caps what leaded with combination of forma to the total destrucion of balance. I think DE needs to look at the mod system (and some Op skills like invisibility) to balance the game. What if primed mods had a unique polatity that is not available via forma and that you just could use ONE corrupted mod like rivens? In my opinion a cap of 250% of all stats are also important. So you could give us more mods that we could use without breaking the game (even more than currently). They cant give us useful mods and just because we are already to OP.

And I will also say that in the moment the only way to create dangerous enemies is to equip them with insane movement and one hit attacks because: To kill something OP you will need something OP.

 

And that is where we are. We are to OP so every content will be to EZ and trivial so that we rush it within a week and ask for more. People hate it but the mod system needs an overhaul!

Edited by DerGreif2
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2 hours ago, DerGreif2 said:

I really love this thread and hope DE reads it and now back to the topic:

 

Endgame does not mean "end of the game" OR the latest content that we received. Endgame is content that is for the time after you completed all and still be ok with doing it. In WoW its raids. No matter how long they will rise the level of the characters or add new expansions: Raids will be the endgame. Thats just for that kind of topic.

 

So now to the powercreep stuff. I think DE destroyed balance with the introduction of corrupted and or primed mods. They have no limitations and besides of efficiency we have no caps what leaded with combination of forma to the total destrucion of balance. I think DE needs to look at the mod system (and some Op skills like invisibility) to balance the game. What if primed mods had a unique polatity that is not available via forma and that you just could use ONE corrupted mod like rivens? In my opinion a cap of 250% of all stats are also important. So you could give us more mods that we could use without breaking the game (even more than currently). They cant give us useful mods and just because we are already to OP.

And I will also say that in the moment the only way to create dangerous enemies is to equip them with insane movement and one hit attacks because: To kill something OP you will need something OP.

 

And that is where we are. We are to OP so every content will be to EZ and trivial so that we rush it within a week and ask for more. People hate it but the mod system needs an overhaul!

While I agree power creep is what broadly caused this descent into just woefully awful balance, and corrupted mods certainly were a result of that, the lean into high scaling aoe dps and furthermore the introduction of operators is really what started to cause things to fall apart. Up until then the game was managing to hold some semblance of balance, team roles still had value, enemies maintained some level of threat/pressence, and it was possible to mess up and get overwhelmed, you still had to think and pay attention at some point in content or otherwise have a genuine chance at failure. But all that became a lesser reality when we started having the ability to kill even the highest level content in room wide waves from from across the map, enemies aren't as threatening when you can instantly gib them from yards aware, and they can't overwhelm you when they die faster than they can group, you don't even need team work anymore because the aforementioned methods make enemies so non threatening that support acts more as overkill than anything. Couple that ontop of the power house of utility that are operators and aoe dps became the ultimate weapon, high range high damage frames with top level mobility and the strongest defense affordable, what stops that?

I don't deny modding is an issue, in at least several different ways, but it honestly not at the core of what is breaking all balance in the game right now, It's how our tools are designed and function inherently that has broken things. Full mechanics/design decisions need readjusting, mods are just the minutia here for finer tuning after the fact. 

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5 hours ago, toafarmer said:

DE doesn't care about endgame. Never did. They even removed the raids. What they want is fresh players with fresh wallets. 

LOOK AT THIS SHINY ZONE. LOOK AT THESE SHINY SYNANANDNADA. LOOK AT THESE SKINS. BUY THEM.

 

Players who have played for a month: Where is the Endgame and why do I 1 shot everything?

 

It's not Warframe, it's Farmframe

Edited by Psykhe27
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