Why Endgame for Warframe is Impossible

[(PSN)GEN-Son_17]

4 hours ago, toafarmer said:

DE doesn't care about endgame. Never did. They even removed the raids. What they want is fresh players with fresh wallets. 

No, what they want is what we have: a really great game. We choose to pay them when they offer us 100% of the content and 90% of the cosmetics free. 100% our choice. It's just weird to see multi year players of the exact same game complaining as if they weren't rewarded. DE, please just continue your path, wherever it may take us. Chill on another endgame attempt since most of the negativity stems from that subject. Chill on rebalancing a game based on BEING an overpowered ninja. Path of Exile is a horrible comparison with it's simplicity so don't worry about its endgame or loot script. Just be good ole warframe and let doors close and new ones open.

[Methanoid]

"Endgame" just needs to be a repeatable thing that is enjoyable, popular games like UT99/CS/Etc had no rewards as such just the core gameplay people enjoyed, then the first of the "show off" games came along like BattleField2 and Trackmania Nations with their stats/leaderboard approach, over here at warframe we just lack that repeatable gametype people want to play that has stats and stuff slapped all over for clans/players/alliances, as they are clans/alliances may as well not be there, they are just glorified chat rooms and blueprint vendors.

[F8ted]

Yeah this is basically the same discussion from a different angle but has virtually the same answer. For the record the game needs balancing, but should steer clear of "endgame" progression balancing. I posted this on the other endgame thread of just about equal popularity:

Balancing Warframe For Endgame

[DreisterDino]

vor 5 Stunden schrieb Methanoid:

then the first of the "show off" games came along like BattleField2 and Trackmania Nations with their stats/leaderboard approach

You cant imagine how happy i am to see someone mention Trackmania, i love that game 🙂 But you forgot one important factor that created a self-sustainable "Endgame", and that was the Map-Editor. Even today, there is an active community on the old Free2Play Version although so many new games have been released. I played it for a long time and spent just as much time if not more creating tracks and enjoyed seeing people beating my times the first hour after releasing it although no one knew the tracks better than me 😅

.

It has been suggested many times that the Warframe community should be able to create Maps/Gamemodes for the community to play, and i think that would be the best thing that could happen to Warframe, and i am also pretty sure it could provide awesome End-Game-content. But whenever this suggestion comes up people are somehow afraid of the possibility that people would create easy mission you can cheese to farm ressources quick (although this could be easily prevented). This is just sad imo, people are so focussed on loot that they are against something they could have so much fun with. We always assume the worst of the community, but i think in this case this is wrong. If you have been a content-creator (Edit: Not talking about being a Youtuber, thats not the "content" i mean lol 😄) in any game you know that joyful feeling you get when people have fun with the content you have created. I am 100% sure people would push themselves to create the best possible missions for Warframe while being creative and having fun themselves doing this instead of just trying to create a dull farming-mission.

 

And here we are, having tons of talented people who spent an insane amount of time decorating Dojos, but lets be honest, in the end no one really cares about that...

The community of a game can make that game soo much better if you allow it to do so!

In Trackmania you had 2 groups of players besides casuals:

• the trackbuilders who enjoyed creating the best possible experience and/or challenge for other players
• the racers who tried their best to beat this challenge as best as possible

 

This would probably be the same in Warframe. And do you know what the best part with all this is?

All of those different types of players coexisted pretty much without any toxicity and stupid debates over who deserves the most attention in the game, there was no hate against casuals or veterans, everyone could simply enjoy the game the way he wanted to and find a challenge matching his skill. This would also take a lot of pressure off DE to create Endgame-content, because the players can create it themselves.

Edited May 20, 2019 by DreisterDino

[(PSN)CodyXSavageX]

Just make arbs and eso fun to play but still rewarding fun and difficulty aren’t mutually exclusive having a central place for mods/endo and relics can be done 

[(PSN)N7_Dredgen]

Honestly I don't think endgame has to be hard at all... 

DE's biggest struggle with end game is that they only ever dip their toes.  They never want to go full swing with anything difficulty-wise because they NEED the game to remain accesible to Joe Blow who picks up the game tomorrow and wants to play the latest content.  

Why do you think the open worlds were also shoveled onto Venus and Earth... first planets in the game, where the new players can go stomp at will.  Probably the most "extreme" requirement they ever put on anything was the conditions to run Arbitration.  Otherwise they've pretty much self-sabotaged every other attempt at end-game, ever, by making it way too accesible.  

We have to remember DE is a business underneath all their niceness - end game content will keep vets invested, but it's not going to draw new players in the short term - and DE cares very much about short term gains, versus long term payoffs.  Content only for vets can't sell (figuratively speaking) as well as content accessible to most players, and so we'll never see end game.  Not because it's impossible or hard to do - but because DE cannot or will not go balls deep on it. 

When wondering why DE doesn't put as much into vet players - always remember DE's target audience.  They aren't looking at the vets, they're looking at the guy who will log in a few times, spent $30 on platinum, then leave after a month or two.  People like us who are around years are low priority.  

[Methanoid]

3 hours ago, DreisterDino said:

You cant imagine how happy i am to see someone mention Trackmania, i love that game 🙂 But you forgot one important factor that created a self-sustainable "Endgame", and that was the Map-Editor. Even today, there is an active community on the old Free2Play Version although so many new games have been released. I played it for a long time and spent just as much time if not more creating tracks and enjoyed seeing people beating my times the first hour after releasing it although no one knew the tracks better than me 😅

.

It has been suggested many times that the Warframe community should be able to create Maps/Gamemodes for the community to play, and i think that would be the best thing that could happen to Warframe, and i am also pretty sure it could provide awesome End-Game-content. But whenever this suggestion comes up people are somehow afraid of the possibility that people would create easy mission you can cheese to farm ressources quick (although this could be easily prevented). This is just sad imo, people are so focussed on loot that they are against something they could have so much fun with. We always assume the worst of the community, but i think in this case this is wrong. If you have been a content-creator (Edit: Not talking about being a Youtuber, thats not the "content" i mean lol 😄) in any game you know that joyful feeling you get when people have fun with the content you have created. I am 100% sure people would push themselves to create the best possible missions for Warframe while being creative and having fun themselves doing this instead of just trying to create a dull farming-mission.

 

And here we are, having tons of talented people who spent an insane amount of time decorating Dojos, but lets be honest, in the end no one really cares about that...

The community of a game can make that game soo much better if you allow it to do so!

In Trackmania you had 2 groups of players besides casuals:

• the trackbuilders who enjoyed creating the best possible experience and/or challenge for other players
• the racers who tried their best to beat this challenge as best as possible

 

This would probably be the same in Warframe. And do you know what the best part with all this is?

All of those different types of players coexisted pretty much without any toxicity and stupid debates over who deserves the most attention in the game, there was no hate against casuals or veterans, everyone could simply enjoy the game the way he wanted to and find a challenge matching his skill. This would also take a lot of pressure off DE to create Endgame-content, because the players can create it themselves.

always amazed companys like DE dont just throw out a map editor and let the public make/submit maps which they cant be arsed doing themselves, in warframes case for static maps like defense, its beyond boring having multiple planets sharing the exact same map for defense yet supposedly on different planets (Helene/Hydron/Etc) plenty of games turn boring/dead exactly due to map shortages or a lack of variety, i mean i originally bailed from ME3:MP to warframe for this very reason, i "used" to like mech warrior online till they couldnt be arsed updating their archaic Cryengine3 and couldnt be arsed releasing new maps but still put out expensive mech packs to buy.

For the better example of embracing public made content there is probably the only good thing left from star trek online before that turned into a bag of garbage as well which is their Foundry system, that 1 single thing makes the game far less boring due to being able to play players maps/missions and people get to vote on how much they liked it.

[DerGreif2]

32 minutes ago, Methanoid said:

always amazed companys like DE dont just throw out a map editor and let the public make/submit maps which they cant be arsed doing themselves, in warframes case for static maps like defense, its beyond boring having multiple planets sharing the exact same map for defense yet supposedly on different planets (Helene/Hydron/Etc) plenty of games turn boring/dead exactly due to map shortages or a lack of variety, i mean i originally bailed from ME3:MP to warframe for this very reason, i "used" to like mech warrior online till they couldnt be arsed updating their archaic Cryengine3 and couldnt be arsed releasing new maps but still put out expensive mech packs to buy.

For the better example of embracing public made content there is probably the only good thing left from star trek online before that turned into a bag of garbage as well which is their Foundry system, that 1 single thing makes the game far less boring due to being able to play players maps/missions and people get to vote on how much they liked it.

It's not that ez... they have to create a map editor and that is a ton of work. You underestimate the work that stands behind that.

[xV3NOMx]

4 hours ago, DreisterDino said:

All of those different types of players coexisted pretty much without any toxicity and stupid debates over who deserves the most attention in the game, there was no hate against casuals or veterans, everyone could simply enjoy the game the way he wanted to and find a challenge matching his skill. This would also take a lot of pressure off DE to create Endgame-content, because the players can create it themselves.

The projection of "End Game" is... there will be none.

The Developers already address this issue about having Warframe to become a complete "Open World" game with never-ending missions, quests and content.

[ I am not sure how soon we will see this happen or if the game can become a genuine "Open World" game, but I do look forward to the new game changing updates.]

[toafarmer]

11 hours ago, (PS4)GEN-Son_17 said:

No, what they want is what we have: a really great game. We choose to pay them when they offer us 100% of the content and 90% of the cosmetics free. 100% our choice. It's just weird to see multi year players of the exact same game complaining as if they weren't rewarded. DE, please just continue your path, wherever it may take us. Chill on another endgame attempt since most of the negativity stems from that subject. Chill on rebalancing a game based on BEING an overpowered ninja. Path of Exile is a horrible comparison with it's simplicity so don't worry about its endgame or loot script. Just be good ole warframe and let doors close and new ones open.

That was funny as hell. "DE, please just continue your path of removing content and delivering nothing new". Path of Exile's "simplicity" was the cherry on the top. 

[DreisterDino]

vor 1 Stunde schrieb DerGreif2:

It's not that ez... they have to create a map editor and that is a ton of work. You underestimate the work that stands behind that.

You are right it takes some work to release a good Map/Mission-Editor - but imo the huge possible payoff can justify this work.

And i dont think its completly absurd to ask for something like this since there are things in Warframe that go into that direction,

so they would have some sort of a foundation to start with. What i mean is:

• a Dojo functions like Map which is created by the players (and is accessable for everyone)
• within the Dojos, we can create Obstacle-courses which are like a very basic mission
• this is a stretch i admit, but tennogen is also user-created content that makes it into the game

 

Giving us an Editor that would allow us to create stuff like Fortuna/PoE would be too much of course,

but an Editor with limitations that basically combines what we can already do with Dojo-Building and Obstacles Courses is possible in my opinion.

[-DG-ShadowPrime]

18 hours ago, toafarmer said:

DE doesn't care about endgame. Never did. They even removed the raids. What they want is fresh players with fresh wallets. 

They removed raids because it was a buggy mess. And raids were a joke after a while.

[Methanoid]

20 hours ago, DerGreif2 said:

It's not that ez... they have to create a map editor and that is a ton of work. You underestimate the work that stands behind that.

It's not like they havent had experience before with the likes of unreal.

[--RV--Earth]

On 2019-05-19 at 7:35 PM, FlusteredFerret said:

I think you'll find those demanding and "endgame" are a relatively small proportion of the whole player base. Its actually far more profitable for DE to cater to newer players...after all, who are more likely to spend money on the game? Those who already have everything, or those who are trying to progress?

 

i think the reason for that small portion that wants it is because, there is no sustainable content, vets get tired of getting something to do/asking for something to do, so they leave. if there was sustainable content, there would more older players playing the game at the moment. the recipe for success for the average warframe player is play till you finish the main content, not including profile compilation and getting all the guns and usless mr fodders, then take 2-4 month break waiting for content. thats what i did but i returned to constant play when sacrifice launched. i would like to know how many resources go to making cosmetics over finishing developing developed content or resources that can go to thinking of new content. maybe even making something as small as an update status instead of typing in tweeter having them type it in an organised way, there is not much that it takes to please the vets while making new content for new paying players, just add more constent status updates, stop making half of a dev stream about cosmetics and divert more resources into new content that appeals to new or old players. there doesnt have to be sustainable content, but new content that we will get once every month or 2 would make the game much more alive for old players.   

[Violet_Xe]

I don't feel like Endgame is impossible. it just needs to be done correctly and have a special set of rules to apply to it. They need to be rewarding, challenging, and have replay ability. So i'll chop down my own topic into why Endgame is possible.

• Rewarding can be done in a variety of ways and there are tons of suggestions for rewards.
• Challenge can actually be done, I've come up with quite a few suggestions in my own thread. But to give you an idea, proper minibosses and putting pressure on more than just your warframe. This an be done by putting you in a defense mission with special conditions or make you run through a sequence of missions fighting different enemies making you use all forms of warframe content. Kinda like trials.
• Replay ability is relatively easy to achieve if you make the "raid" or whatever you want to call endgame fun. Fun is relative so it should be applied differently to different audiences. Fun is 100% necessary but you can also make mission modifiers, like nightmare effects or hazards.

It is totally possible, DE just needs to have the ability to take care of this endgame content, give incentive to the player for running the mission, and keep the thing fun.

Also endgame isn't a small portion of the community at this point. There are now casuals who started 1-2 years ago reaching the point where they're either burnt out or don't know what else to do. Lots of players need a source of endgame, it's just a small amount of people are asking for it. Rahetalious for example has given up completely on endgame because DE just doesn't seem to get around to it ever. They promise, but never give. They can, but can't decide on what they want to do. That's DE's Dilemma. Do they make stuff single player friends because that's where the money comes from? or do they supply endgame to keep us invested in the game for longer.

As for an endgame builder, didn't we have that on the table at one point? You know clans that can choose the lvl of their mission and what enemies spawned? DE kinda just left that somewhere on the back burner and we've got no clue where that went. I mean I know what you're talking about as a "builder" but seriously we had that at one point didn't we? does that count?

Lastly if were alking about power creep and power houses. It's simple but long term what DE needs to do. Slowly patch old weapons into a more playable state. Which might actually be a good content idea. We have so many old weapons that need to be buffed or reworked into a more reasonable state. i mean who here even uses convectrix? no, how about the paris prime? the hind? Mayhaps the glaxion? Akzani, Castanas, Kunai, Tysis, Furax, Sarpa, Shaku, Sydon, Magistar, Ether Reaper, Bo... We have lots of weapons that could use a unique passive and cool playstyle right? why not have a Revival Update where a ton of weapons get cool new passives? thats a big batch of content and lets them balance some weapons into the meta. Overtime they could lower the power of say the tigris, saryn, amprex, etc etc. That would work  for a balance issue right? yes it may take 2-3 big updates, but it would help make endgame content more challenging and varied due to the slew of new viable weps right?

I honestly 100% believe raids are the way to go for endgame without people leaving afterwards. Theres a reason why Destiny, WoW, and other grind games have found themselves on the Raiding doorstep. Of course there may be other ways, but Raids would be the easiest. it may require patch after patch, but it's what DE needs as the simple endgame. It just needs to be handled carefully. And thats where DE falls at a disadvantage over companies like blizzard who have a massive team. Yet it's not impossible.

Also it may be worth adding a legitimate leaderboard. I know some players are competitive in some places such as the "Suda Swing" with octavias anthem and Sancuary Onslaught. So if a raid were to be the way to go, how about adding a fastest completion time? the people or clans at the top get a special reward maybe like hey everyone in this clan gets 1 riven if you're in the top 10 clans. Reward given out once every 2-3 weeks.

I've actually created a post on endgame, I know i really shouldn't plug or self advertise. But I think I've got something that counts as sustainable content for endgame. If any of you care to check it out, you can look for it on my profile. I'd actually like feedback on my work as I'm looking to be posting rework concepts, raid concepts, game tweaks, and other things in the future for the forums. I'm hoping to include more raids involving sentient, corpus, and infested factions. >>>Still DONT stop posting here, this is a great thread to talk on :D<<<

Hopefully I can contribute more to this conversation a bit later, but atm i need to dash. Will reply at a later time so sorry If i can't get back to you quickly.

[xV3NOMx]

As I mentioned before:

The projection of "End Game" is... there will be none.

The Developers already address this issue about having Warframe to become a complete "Open World" game with never-ending missions, quests and content.

[ I am not sure how soon we will see this happen or if the game can become a genuine "Open World" game, but I do look forward to the new game changing updates.]

[DreisterDino]

vor 1 Minute schrieb xV3NOMx:

As I mentioned before:

The projection of "End Game" is... there will be none.

The Developers already address this issue about having Warframe to become a complete "Open World" game with never-ending missions, quests and content.

[ I am not sure how soon we will see this happen or if the game can become a genuine "Open World" game, but I do look forward to the new game changing updates.]

Yes you said this before and i still have no idea what you are talking about 😂

complete open world game...like, what??

[Violet_Xe]

On 2019-05-15 at 12:45 PM, Chipputer said:

This is the stuff I like to see suggested.

Though I disagree with ending the scaling on damage at 80. I'd bump it up to at least 100. If Sortie 3 has taught me anything it's that I never need to take my Oberon's Renewal any higher than 170% strength as long as I keep on moving.

I'd also like to see the enemies become more aggressive at higher levels and utilize cover even more often. I'd love to see priority enemies (think Bombards, Nullifiers, etc) become rally points much in the same way a Nullifier bubble already is.
Hek, they could even implement a thing where enemies rallied behind a priority target will focus on the player the target is already focused on and killing the priority one will cause them to scatter and seek cover immediately.

There's actually an enemy AI pattern to use cover more often. Did you know nightwatch AI is actually more advanced than normal soldiers? In my research for my concepts I actually saw that when looking around for cool and tough units. Nightwatch even use elemental weapons that shred shields and armor more efficiently than other frames.

Also enemies do sometimes rally to important targets. Did you notice how enemies often move in squads and groups within eximus snowglobes and nullifier shields? it's actually quite annoying as Tactical potato pointed out. The 4 worst enemies to come across together usually hand together cause the nully keeps them together with his AI. Billy the bombard, The Ancient Healer, Crewman Shotgun to the face, and the Sniper Nulli. An impossible group to kill at higher levels cause you either die to explosives or the shotgun before you can even enter the bubble to kill the group. Often time I actually think I see enemies gather around Arson, I mean i'm pretty sure it's coincidence but eh. never know.

Personally i'd like to see more of this int he future like you. Would make the game more challenging. And the idea that higher level enemies use this more is like a training level. Never saw that idea before. I only ever suggested raise the enemy AI.

Also another cool little thing I learned, Reavers are rude little pieces of.... well yeah they actually sacrifice lower class soldiers. Reavers won't engage without people in front of them. AKA they use nightwatch lancers at meat shields and distractions. DE can do these AI tricks, they just haven't put them to practice in normal missions yet.

[xV3NOMx]

8 hours ago, DreisterDino said:

Yes you said this before and i still have no idea what you are talking about 😂

complete open world game...like, what??

Best comparison of how Warframe will be a complete "Open World" game would be "Star Citizen" meets "The Elder Scrolls: Skyrim."

[ The upcoming "Railjack" update is the start of a series of updates to enable Players to travel from planet to planet from their spacecraft. Eventually, each planet locations will connect and become "Open world" to explore similar to "Plains of Eidolon" and "Orb Vallis".]

Just in case you are not familiar with what the "Railjack" update is here is a video link  :https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NGpJICoghnQ.

[Violet_Xe]

2 hours ago, xV3NOMx said:

Best comparison of how Warframe will be a complete "Open World" game would be "Star Citizen" meets "The Elder Scrolls: Skyrim."

[ The upcoming "Railjack" update is the start of a series of updates to enable Players to travel from planet to planet from their spacecraft. Eventually, each planet locations will connect and become "Open world" to explore similar to "Plains of Eidolon" and "Orb Vallis".]

Just in case you are not familiar with what the "Railjack" update is here is a video link  :https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NGpJICoghnQ.

I don't think that's entirely what they were going for with railjack. I also don't think any more than 1 or 2 more open worlds will be made. Maybe an infested orokin open world, and maybe way down the like sentient, but just no. Open worlds take far too much resources away from the current game. We shouldn't be thinking about an open "origin system" like that for quite awhile. Also Railjack I imagine came from a game mode DE was talking about awhile back. There was a devsteam *forgot which* where they talked about a morphing ship that allowed you to explore nodes deeper into space and further away from planets. You would need archwing and also people on mounted turrets in order to defend it. I think that's where railjack was birthed from.

Also in no way do i think a complete open world would ever be an endgame as we've seen with the orb mothers and eidolons which can be beaten by a solo person multiple times in under an hour and that's not where DE wants to go with the game. Form their pattern of building concepts, Open worlds will be ditched soon, they'll go back to polishing core mechanics, and then throw the next curve ball. Railjack is not an endgame, open worlds most likely won't be endgame, and the "open origin system" idea would take FAR too much time. 

Your words of "There will be no endgame" is what I think is holding this Endgame content back. at least one of the reasons anyways. You could be 100% right that DE may have no intent to create endgame. But I deny that, they have been trying to deliver us that content we desire so much but then the content flops like ESO, gets Meta'd to hell like Eidolons, or get's outright nerfed like the wolf. Or in raid's case removed from the game. If they didn't want to give us this endgame content, they wouldn't be trying so hard to say This will be the endgame you all want, this is what will satisfy that urge to fight tough opponents. Well.... it never once works because some part of the community becomes too vocal and says "nerf stalker the second dream's too hard I can't kill the guy who's meant to specialize in hunting warframes" or "I can't kill this lunatic wolf guy, he has too much health nerf please or i'm done!". As soon as the most kitted our players get something worth their time, it gets taken away because other's don't like it when that content wasn't made for you in the first place. DE can make endgame, they've come close several times, they just needed to expand on the concept of raids more. Better rewards and more ways to make them challenging. It's not that hard to make and if we push hard enough DE will finally get it right. I don't think players care if it comes in the form of raids, or Arbitrations, or anything, as long as it actually counts as endgame content. DE has tons of freedom here.Your line that says "There will be no endgame" is only true if you want it that way. We the players have a big say in how this game shapes itself.

Just a side note, Do you know how much I enjoyed fighting the wolf because he was worth my time? an enemy that finally put me in my place? I loved the wolf so much I fought him for 2 hours on a defense mission with my melee terrible melee because I ran out of ammo. I created my own dodging system to counter the guy. Transference out and in as soon as he started to swing his hammer and attack until I needed to transference back in and out of the frame to avoid the next attack. I enjoyed that. because he was the ONLY enemy in the entire game that gave me a difficult time since shadow stalker 1.0, the shadow that was strong enough to kill you three times over. Granted if I brought better gear he would have died sooner but guess what, for once my entire squad decided to start talking and came together behind a common goal, and decided to fight until they were dead or had to leave. That felt amazing.

[xV3NOMx]

10 hours ago, Violet_Xe said:

 But I deny that, they have been trying to deliver us that content we desire so much but then the content flops like ESO, gets Meta'd to hell like Eidolons, or get's outright nerfed like the wolf.

Well.... it never once works because some part of the community becomes too vocal and says "nerf stalker the second dream's too hard I can't kill the guy who's meant to specialize in hunting warframes" or "I can't kill this lunatic wolf guy, he has too much health nerf please or i'm done!". 

The problem is there are too many complaints about the game's difficulty or grind from other Players, then the game gets nerfed to satisfy them while the rest of us suffer. This is evident with how many Players complained about how well [Ash] & [Ember] used to easily kill enemies with their fourth ability or Players using [Telos Boltace], [Tonker], and [Synoid Simulor] weapons can easily wipe out an army of enemies while others watch. 

[ I have personally seen how many changes have been made to Warframe in effort to satisfy the Players who whine too much about certain game mechanics that others take advantage of, and it is disturbing.]

In my opinion, I wish the Developers disable Players from being able to purchase weapons and warframes from the Market to escape the grind. Instead, allow the Players to only trade for them or gain them genuinely and to stop the "holding hand" methods. 

[Players who purchased Wisp from the market, already are complaining about the warframe while the new update has been released less than one day (24 hours).... Go figure!]

Edited May 23, 2019 by xV3NOMx

[(PSN)GEN-Son_17]

11 hours ago, Violet_Xe said:

Just a side note, Do you know how much I enjoyed fighting the wolf because he was worth my time? an enemy that finally put me in my place? I loved the wolf so much I fought him for 2 hours on a defense mission with my melee terrible melee because I ran out of ammo. I created my own dodging system to counter the guy. Transference out and in as soon as he started to swing his hammer and attack until I needed to transference back in and out of the frame to avoid the next attack. I enjoyed that. because he was the ONLY enemy in the entire game that gave me a difficult time since shadow stalker 1.0, the shadow that was strong enough to kill you three times over. Granted if I brought better gear he would have died sooner but guess what, for once my entire squad decided to start talking and came together behind a common goal, and decided to fight until they were dead or had to leave. That felt amazing.

This! I got caught unprepared in Hydron, trying to quick level my new Equinox prime and forma'd staticor. I never used her before but was excited to test my evasion and operator skills the buffs I could use. Apparently, my random team was up for the challenge. We....got our butts kicked but had him down to about 20% health. That was an AWESOME fight and the laughs, yelling and evolving strategies made it worth it. I say bring him back to bullet sponge mode, throw him in Hydron as a cheese deterrent and let's see just how much players want to gamble for a quick level up!

[Violet_Xe]

3 hours ago, xV3NOMx said:

The problem is there are too many complaints about the game's difficulty or grind from other Players, then the game gets nerfed to satisfy them while the rest of us suffer. This is evident with how many Players complained about how well [Ash] & [Ember] used to easily kill enemies with their fourth ability or Players using [Telos Boltace], [Tonker], and [Synoid Simulor] weapons can easily wipe out an army of enemies while others watch. 

[ I have personally seen how many changes have been made to Warframe in effort to satisfy the Players who whine too much about certain game mechanics that others take advantage of, and it is disturbing.]

In my opinion, I wish the Developers disable Players from being able to purchase weapons and warframes from the Market to escape the grind. Instead, allow the Players to only trade for them or gain them genuinely and to stop the "holding hand" methods. 

[Players who purchased Wisp from the market, already are complaining about the warframe while the new update has been released less than one day (24 hours).... Go figure!]

Actually I'm all for buying frames from the market. DE wants them to complain about this stuff on day 1. It's part of their feedback loop. Every game has this, people who are willing to instant buy the frame get the worse experience, and help to develop the frame by pointing out bugs and fixes. Without this in the game we would have a couple huge issues only being found several days after release. I get where you're coming from, but I don't think the weapons and frames should be taken out. It's also a way for them to get money from people who willingly support the game. Yes there is some predetory things about it but they're working on that, and yes there are the annoying braggers saying "I've got this hah you don't" but eh yeah I honestly support the instant purchase. it makes players that wait to build it have the more enjoyable first experience. 🙂

If you want examples of this, Hydroid, Oberon, and Nezha reworks all needed feedback and were improved upon from com feedback. I think the same happened with a few warframes on release but i can't remember which ones >.<

Yes I agree with you on the first topic. the solution is DE needs to buckle down and just say no, screw it, were not nerfing this. Maybe come to a compromise, but not nerf to death. Ember got nerfed to death, Ash blade storm is kinda pointless because equinox now has a better blade storm ult than what ash had in vanilla, plus it can heal. The only thing DE needed to do was make it so we can kill people who are being attacked by clones and everything would have been fine. DE not only tries to bend to the majority, but go even beyond to impress us which in some cases works, but we don't want it all the time. DE just needs to have more confidence in their work and not nerf things to death.
Tho Telos boltace was broken 😄 i'm guilty of using this one and i agree 100% with the nerf to it. I actually really like the new passive as it helps some frames so hey I'm on the side of the new Boltace. More interactive and fun. Tho I still use kronen prime over that. yet... no crippling whip nerfs yet huh? Tonkor tho, that hurt me a ton. My bomber zephyr is gathering dust at the back of my ship.

Eh sorry if this seemed a bit scattered, i'm kinda sleepy and hungry atm. But point is DE needs to buckle down if they want any sort of endgame content. Soem cahnged like telos boltace, and keeping market stuff yeah that's good. Keep it. it helps the game grow. But nerfing wolf, stalker, destroying trials, and such should not be a thing. Also I notice this a lot. You all need to start jumping to the defense saying " No No No that's a terrible idea don't do this!" seriously I posted this on one of my largest wall of text ever "What we want, Both DE and us." and uh, ALL of the community needs to voice their opinion. If you're in favor of or nerfing something when they talk about it. I loved the reaction to the Itzal nerf idea, everyone said no, how about you do this to fix the problem, and I mean everyone talked about it. Why don't we get this more often? Please do this more often and maybe we can actually start chipping away at DE giving us proper endgame without it being taken away from us. Anyways i'm off to bed for nows. ba bye for a couple hrs.