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Jarriaga

Decrease ESO leeching by preventing joining with weapons under Rank 30.

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20 minutes ago, MystMan said:

Do people who keep spouting that "use recruit chat" actually follow their own advice or do they just enjoy mentioning platitudes?

 

Yes. I do use recruit chat and it works. Unless you are being weird and ask for something like "No saryn, volt, equinox, rhino allowed, only off-meta frames allowed" then good luck. 

Also, equipment below rank 30 does not necessarily mean whoever is using it is gonna be leeching. It can be something that is being Forma-ed for the 2nd or 3rd time, with a Riven, and can perform as good as any rank 30 weapon

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Dearest OP,

 

I hope this letter finds you in better spirits than when you posted your wrong.  Your heart was in the right place even if your brain was not.  In hopes of making you a better Warframe player, and given the motives behind your post, likely a better person, I shall endeavour to correct your fallacious thinking.

Let me begin by saying that I understand your frustration with people not staying in ESO.  'Tis truly vexing I know.  But your alternative is worse in that it would simply mean that nobody would go in the first place.  What's more, you already have means to avoid the very limited scenario in which you are most correct.  If you want people to stay for X number of rounds, you need to be in a group where everyone has agreed to that at the start.  To do otherwise is selfish, self-centered, and again, wrong.

More than that, weapon level has frak all to do with effectiveness.  I'll let you in on a secret.  Outside of Saryn and Volt, my operator, using my amp, can outdamage any weapon in the game for the first 8 rounds of ESO.  I can literally bring any piece of garbage I want and still outdamage and outkill all but those two frames.  No, it's not some great secret or even that I've found some OP combination of things.  It's simply that for the first 8 rounds of ESO, practically everything in the game is overkill, so your focus should be on AoE effects if you're trying to maximize your gains during that time.

Which brings up the next point.  Level 30 weapons are not remotely created equal for the purpose of ESO.  I could bring my tank Nidus, switch him to my Vectis Prime with it's very, very good riven (not godly, but very very good), and I'd be less useful than if I grabbed the same tank Nidus but equipped him with a just-forma'd Ignis Wraith.  See, what you are forgetting is that as a MR20, my "unranked" weapons are only 10 levels below what they'll be at 30, and more often than that (especially in the case of my Ignis Wraith which I dumped a great big pile of forma into), it's very likely that an unranked just-forma'd weapon is BETTER than a mastered-but-never-forma'd weapon.

Finally, who the frak cares about leeches in something as easy as ESO?  If you want to guarantee your 8 rounds, freakin' get a group to agree to it.  You don't need a perfect group either to get that far.  I can carry any random group of pugs to round 8 with my Saryn, and I'm not even a particularly good Saryn player (because I usually bring Nidus when leveling primary/secondary weapons or Mirage if I'm leveling melee weapons so I don't have much practice playing her).

In short, no.  Do not exclude anyone from any game mode just because they make your feels sad.  If you want long ESO runs, you should coordinate.  In fact, I promise you, if you don't coordinate, you'll never get a group that can handle much pass 8 anyway.  So save yourself the angst, and the embarrassment of public whining about people not playing the way you demand them to, and simply put together a team that all want to play the way you want to, and likely more importantly, have a group makeup that can actually pull it off.

Sincerely,

Your friend Xavori

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Posted (edited)
30 minutes ago, (XB1)R3d P01nt said:

If the player was only ever going to use one weapon...melee let's say (kinda like you do), then why shouldn't they be able to bring another weapon along to let it accumulate some XP?  They aren't making the efficiency any worse since they aren't using their weapon.

Of course, you've already admitted that it's not about that, it's about punishing players who don't come into the game with the same goals as you.  You don't get to dictate to other players how many rounds they are required to stay in a match.  This is no different than people who want to dictate that players no be allowed to leave a defense before wave 20 or survival before 20 minutes are up.

Good players are always punished for the behavior of leeches. My proposal would affect good players that passively let an unused weapon get XP while they actively play. I have no problem with this when players 2-4 do this. My problem is when the host does this and leaves, because it breaks my game.

I agree I have a rather aggressive stance against leeching, but it does not reflect to other game modes because there are other systems in place to pick-up in case of a host migration. I can continue survival just fine. I was one of the players who vouched for individual extraction. ESO? Efficiency drops while migrating because of the way migrations work.

Beyond that, DE has made it clear themselves that there is an overton window of allowed behaviors and even frame roles (Like when they nerfed Trinity Link because Trinity is not meant to do that much damage), so it's not just me saying how a player should play their game.

Quoting Rebecca herself:

"For consistency, damage link abilities (Trinity, Nidus, Nekros) will no longer transmit self-damage, but you will still get the damage reduction. This is particularly relevant for the healer/support class of Trinity who had become the go-to DPS frame in addition to the intended support roles. The re-release of Mods like Aviator added to some clever but ultimately uncharacteristic roles for Trinity."

Edited by Jarriaga

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Posted (edited)
21 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

Good players are always punished for the behavior of leeches. My proposal would affect good players that passively let an unused weapon get XP while they actively play. I have no problem with this when players 2-4 do this. My problem is when the host does this and leaves, because it breaks my game.

So, can we dispense with the red herring of leeching or the use of underleveled weapons?  That's not the issue.  The issue is that you don't want the host to leave before you are ready to leave.

I agree that host migrations are a pain and it would be a good thing if DE could fix them.  Host only options might also help in this regard.  The best thing you can do, however, is to set up a squad through recruiting/clan/alliance chat.  Anything else is simply tilting at windmills because you can't force other players to stay as long as you want when you sign up for a PUG.  Players can, and will, leave when they feel like leaving for any and all reasons.

21 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

Beyond that, DE has made it clear themselves that there is an overton window of allowed behaviors and even frame roles (Like when they nerfed Trinity Link because Trinity is not meant to do that much damage), so it's not just me saying how a player should play their game.

DE noting that players are using a frame in an unintended way and patching it is a far cry from specifying that players must stay for at least 8 rounds.  If DE wanted us to stay for at least 8 rounds, there wouldn't be the option of extracting.

 

Edited by (XB1)R3d P01nt
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Posted (edited)
15 minutes ago, (XB1)R3d P01nt said:

So, can we dispense with the red herring of leeching or the use of underleveled weapons?  That's not the issue.  The issue is that you don't want the host to leave before you are ready to leave.

I agree that host migrations are a pain and it would be a good thing if DE could fix them.  Host only options might also help in this regard.  The best thing you can do, however, is to set up a squad through recruiting/clan/alliance chat.  Anything else is simply tilting at windmills because you can't force other players to stay as long as you want when you sign up for a PUG.  Players can, and will, leave when they feel like leaving for any and all reasons, up to, and including, maxing a weapon to rank 30.

Host leeching is not a red herring. It is in my own experience the absolute most common cause of the problem I am highlighing. Things happen in real life. They could have an emergency and need to leave, and when this happens hosts often say it in chat. They could also get bored and leave. They could also think other players including me are slowing the host down and leave. It is impossible to fully stop this behavior.

Leeches on the other hand can be decreased in number. This automatically leaves only those who want to play ESO for the Focus, rewards, or for the plain fun of it. I would still have a problem with leeches with dedicated servers with no migrations, because I have a problem with leeches.

I've been using workarounds like decreasing my PING so I can host for as many sessions as possible, and I've tried recruit chat. Decreasing my PING often leaves me as the only player, and recruit chat makes me wait anywhere between 5-10 minutes, and some players leave when non-meta player are invited.

15 minutes ago, (XB1)R3d P01nt said:

DE noting that players are using a frame in an unintended way and patching it is a far cry from specifying that players must stay for at least 8 rounds.  If DE wanted us to stay for at least 8 rounds, there wouldn't be the option of extracting.

I agree my comparison is not 1:1, but the core sentiment is that contrary to player belief, DE believes there is an intended way to play their game even if not aggressively enforced. If a game mode is exclusionary by design as it requires a very high DPS potential, which limits frame builds and experimentation, and of top of that they explicitly mentioned that the game mode is meant to serve as an alternative Focus farm then you need to look at the requirements of Focus farming (Rank 30 gear). That speaks of their intent. It's just that they are not aggressively enforcing it.

Edited by Jarriaga

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11 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

Host leeching is not a red herring. It is in my own experience the absolute most common cause of the problem I am highlighing.

No, it is not.  You've said yourself that you don't care if you have to carry.  What you care about is the host leaving before you are ready to leave.  You've even tried to define leeching as leaving before when you are ready to leave or at the very least not coming in with maxed out gear, even though you yourself have admitted that you go melee only.  Those definitions are simply not accurate and are a side-track from your real issue.

Again, if you want to stay to a certain time/wave/whatever, then you should create a group and get like-minded individuals.

15 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

I've been using workarounds like decreasing my PING so I can host for as many sessions as possible, and I've tried recruit chat. Decreasing my PING often leaves me as the only player, and recruit chat makes me wait anywhere between 5-10 minutes, and some players leave when non-meta player are invited.

Yup, it takes longer to find a specific set of people looking to play your way than to simply jump into a match.  I'm not surprised.  But, that's going to be trivially true for anything.  When you set standards for what you will accept or not accept, you have to wait for people to fill those roles.  And, no fair poo-pooing on people who want meta setups when you are also looking for specific things.  Your wants are not necessarily more palatable or acceptable than their wants simply because they are what you want.  You are not the arbiter of what is and is not normal or acceptable.

18 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

I agree my comparison is not 1:1, but the core sentiment is that contrary to player belief, DE believes there is an intended way to play their game even if not aggressively enforced.

No, they have an intended way of using a support/healer frame that doesn't include being the best DPS in the game as well.  That's a far cry from claiming that all players need to stay for at least 8 rounds.

19 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

If a game mode is exclusionary by design as it requires a very high DPS potential, which limits frame builds and experimentation, and of top of that they explicitly mentioned that the game mode is meant to serve as an alternative Focus farm then you need to look at the requirements of Focus farming (Rank 30 gear). That speaks of their intent. It's just that they are not aggressively enforcing it.

And, if you look at the context of that statement, it's when people were looking for ways to farm focus and they offered that as a feature of this game-mode that one can use it to farm focus - not that one must use it to farm focus or that that is the only intent of the game mode.  Additionally, why should someone who has maxed out their daily focus stay in the match for more rounds?  Again, there's no requirement that people stay for 8 rounds in the game, which is what you're really pushing for so that you never have to be inconvenienced by people leaving.

Use Recruiting chat.

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2 hours ago, Jarriaga said:

Yes, and as I mentioned, those people would then be at the mercy of leeching hosts. I would no longer be experiencing the problem myself, but the problem would still remain there.

They could easily opt out of it if it bothered them as much as it seems to bother you.

2 hours ago, Jarriaga said:

No, leeching is what leeching players have made ESO about. I am most certain DE doesn't like leeching, and if leeching was an acceptable player behavior then you would still get rewards when standing and doing nothing instead of getting a "not eligible for reward" message.

If DE didn't want leeching to exist, there would be no shared XP.

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Leeching is a huge problem in ESO.  Aside from the host migrations (which I blame DE for, not the leech), they also do nothing, bring nothing, and take up a space that might otherwise be occupied by someone who was actually willing to contribute.

Of course, none of that would address the issue the OP has, because even as a focus farm only, people will leave when they maxed their focus for the day - so no change there.

What I would like to see ,and have proposed in the past is a "choose your wave" sort of like the index choose your bet.

If you choose 6 waves, you are not rewarded if you don't make it or leave early.

if you choose 2 waves, you can stay if you want, but perhaps have lower tier reward chances.

So the longer your bet and commitment, the better your odds.  

You will not be paired up with anyone who chose a lesser rotation that you did (up to 8).  it'd only be a 4 selection screen  - 2/4/6/8 or they could do rotation A/B/C

 

 

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Eso is piss easy and boring. I'll gladly leech xp so I can move on from my fidder crap and that game mode as a whole.

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This issue, and many others, could be cleared up by letting hosts create a party name and letting joiners choose from a list.

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Posted (edited)

I don't agree... but I understand...

It's unfortunate some players can't simply be thoughtful enough to level one thing at a time and instead they go all in with multiple under leveled load outs hurting the team 

...But there's no Draco to enjoy to get rid of the un-fun garbage they keep shoveling out when it comes to new weapons and I can't stand Hydron.....Plus in certain PUGs depending on the player interactions I don't really care how far we go..so long as this terrible weapon on my back or side is finally leveled and I can rid myself of it...

I usually bring this awful weapon that needs leveling with my fully maxed frame, two other preferred weapons that easily one shot 90-120s and higher, and a companion ready to do all the work... while the junk riding along is collecting XP so I can get rid of it since it is clogging up my inventory.

Edited by (PS4)FriendSharkey

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yeah that will help u a lot when u will have to solo ESO. people have different reasons for playing it. if u want a tryhard squad go in recruit chat.

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10 hours ago, Jarriaga said:

Problem: A leeching player that is only "playing" (Intentional quotation marks) ESO for maxing out a weapon is not contributing to said goal and is actually making it harder for the other players, particularly so when the host is the one leeching and leaves. This in turn causes affinity loss and risks progress loss due to host migration issues. So why allow it?

Whenever I do ESO runs, each Player has a role and we use certain warframes in different combinations, but we agree on how many waves we will complete (8 waves is the common for ESO runs).

Suggested Warframes to use:

  • Trinity (Energy Vampire build)
  • Rhino, Equinox or Chroma (Buff)
  • Saryn, Volt or Equinox (DPS)
  • Mesa, Nova or Banshee (Alternative Support Frames)

I never had a problem with Players who uses low-level weapons, it is their Warframe's abilities that matter.

[ I had hosted ESO runs to level-up my weapons in the past too and other Players didn't care that I did.]

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Posted (edited)

Didn't read whole thread. SEVERAL higher level WF game modes need to have weapon level locks including ESO. Leeching is truly out of hand.

Level your damn weapons in regular SO, lower bounties, lower void fissures, outside sorties, outside arbitration, lower tiles than t4 void, not on Eidolons, do Hydron or other standard leveling tiles, and stop being a freaking leech in the higher content just because you can leech more affinity there.

The "but I support the team in other ways" and "I just formaed it for the fifth time!" rationalizations are bogus, are outliers, and do not address this -gaping- hole in WF higher end content that has gone on way too long. The "but you should form your own squad" is just a different dog with different fleas. Coop games are rightfully judged on random PUG hop-in giving a high chance to have an enjoyable gaming experience, and WF currently -fails- in that regard due to its liberal policy on leeching.

The starchart, lower bounties, regular SO, lower void fissures give PLENTY of efficient ways to level gear, and the few higher end modes should be max gear/frame only. That the mass leeching in higher WF game modes hasn't been addressed is one big reason I no longer give them $$ and just play their game for free.

Edited by Buttaface
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If you're so dependent on what other players' loadouts ranking are; then maybe you're the leech, OP. Looking to get carried by a squad of Meta users.

On the other hand; If you're capable of Standing on Your Own, then it shouldn't matter what everyone else in the pub group is doing.

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32 minutes ago, Buttaface said:

Didn't read whole thread. SEVERAL higher level WF game modes need to have weapon level locks including ESO. Leeching is truly out of hand.

Level your damn weapons in regular SO, lower bounties, lower void fissures, outside sorties, outside arbitration, lower tiles than t4 void, not on Eidolons, do Hydron or other standard leveling tiles, and stop being a freaking leech in the higher content just because you can leech more affinity there.

The "but I support the team in other ways" and "I just formaed it for the fifth time!" rationalizations are bogus, are outliers, and do not address this -gaping- hole in WF higher end content that has gone on way too long. The "but you should form your own squad" is just a different dog with different fleas. Coop games are rightfully judged on random PUG hop-in giving a high chance to have an enjoyable gaming experience, and WF currently -fails- in that regard due to its liberal policy on leeching.

The starchart, lower bounties, regular SO, lower void fissures give PLENTY of efficient ways to level gear, and the few higher end modes should be max gear/frame only. That the mass leeching in higher WF game modes hasn't been addressed is one big reason I no longer give them $$ and just play their game for free.

How many of your weapons do you typically use to kill any given enemy? 

I suspect that the answer is "exactly 1" for most of us. That suggests that at any given time two of the weapons are doing what's commonly known as "bugger all" and can be replaced with "humorously shaped vegetables" if you are so inclined, with no decrease in efficiency. 

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19 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

How many of your weapons do you typically use to kill any given enemy? 

I suspect that the answer is "exactly 1" for most of us. That suggests that at any given time two of the weapons are doing what's commonly known as "bugger all" and can be replaced with "humorously shaped vegetables" if you are so inclined, with no decrease in efficiency. 

Spare more rationalizations, knew I had forgotten at least one big one in the prior post. The FACT is that WF is full of players leeching higher content, expecting total carry, with NO ability to kill or even CC the mobs reasonably. This is not fun for anyone but the leechers who, curiously, derive some amount of satisfaction from a video game by having it played for them and not actually playing it themselves. It should have ended ages ago.

Then one day we load into a lobby with a MR 24 Frost who doesn't know how to delete a preexisting bubble, and we wonder "How the F does that happen exactly?" and then later we are in missions full of the inevitable leeches, Profit Taker with MR 20+ noobs, carrying arbitrations with a MR 20+ who just keeps dying and dying... on his Chroma... and suddenly "ahhh THAT'S how it happens." So the leeching problem in WF isn't just a fun spoiler, but creates a lackluster higher end game where very basic player skill is concerned.

WF is currently like the Special Olympics of games due in large part to forced leeching and carrying.

Leave leeching to lower bounties and starchart, where there are more than enough places to do that efficiently where it doesn't louse up higher content. And please stop with the feeble rationalizations. Just fess up and say "I want the game to be full of deadweight leeches and I want to leech too" because no rationalization can change what the status quo of WF actually is.

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56 minutes ago, Buttaface said:

Spare more rationalizations, knew I had forgotten at least one big one in the prior post. The FACT is that WF is full of players leeching higher content, expecting total carry, with NO ability to kill or even CC the mobs reasonably. This is not fun for anyone but the leechers who, curiously, derive some amount of satisfaction from a video game by having it played for them and not actually playing it themselves. It should have ended ages ago.

Then one day we load into a lobby with a MR 24 Frost who doesn't know how to delete a preexisting bubble, and we wonder "How the F does that happen exactly?" and then later we are in missions full of the inevitable leeches, Profit Taker with MR 20+ noobs, carrying arbitrations with a MR 20+ who just keeps dying and dying... on his Chroma... and suddenly "ahhh THAT'S how it happens." So the leeching problem in WF isn't just a fun spoiler, but creates a lackluster higher end game where very basic player skill is concerned.

WF is currently like the Special Olympics of games due in large part to forced leeching and carrying.

Leave leeching to lower bounties and starchart, where there are more than enough places to do that efficiently where it doesn't louse up higher content. And please stop with the feeble rationalizations. Just fess up and say "I want the game to be full of deadweight leeches and I want to leech too" because no rationalization can change what the status quo of WF actually is.

In another thread, you complain about:

56 minutes ago, Buttaface said:

They start to sound like drudges slaving away in a salt mine after a few of these threads when the "efficiency" rationalizations start to out... "must get it over as fast as possible... must end this treadmill of agony!" Or at the very least people who think they are playing a game other than the one they are actually playing.

But the truth of it is, and they will never admit this, a vast majority of them -enjoy- curbstomping low level missions that lowbies are playing for epeen and "muhkillz." That's the unspoken truth behind many of these types of players. 

I find it oddly amusing how you can be so salty about both "lowbies" and "curbstompers" simultaneously.

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55 minutes ago, Buttaface said:

Spare more rationalizations, knew I had forgotten at least one big one in the prior post. The FACT is that WF is full of players leeching higher content, expecting total carry, with NO ability to kill or even CC the mobs reasonably. This is not fun for anyone but the leechers who, curiously, derive some amount of satisfaction from a video game by having it played for them and not actually playing it themselves. It should have ended ages ago.

Then one day we load into a lobby with a MR 24 Frost who doesn't know how to delete a preexisting bubble, and we wonder "How the F does that happen exactly?" and then later we are in missions full of the inevitable leeches, Profit Taker with MR 20+ noobs, carrying arbitrations with a MR 20+ who just keeps dying and dying... on his Chroma... and suddenly "ahhh THAT'S how it happens." So the leeching problem in WF isn't just a fun spoiler, but creates a lackluster higher end game where very basic player skill is concerned.

WF is currently like the Special Olympics of games due in large part to forced leeching and carrying.

Leave leeching to lower bounties and starchart, where there are more than enough places to do that efficiently where it doesn't louse up higher content. And please stop with the feeble rationalizations. Just fess up and say "I want the game to be full of deadweight leeches and I want to leech too" because no rationalization can change what the status quo of WF actually is.

You're being ridiculous. I often find myself in a Rhino, and trying to keep up with a good Equinox on Hydron, and occasionally I almost make it. I will often be the one who carries, even though I'm in the "support" frame. I can count on one hand the number of times I faced the Wolf and was outdamaged, and just so we're crystal clear I farmed the hammer and the mask long before the alert, always in a pug, often on Hydron.

I can manage to do that with just one good weapon at a time while ranking up MR fodder. If you are unable to do that, then I'd question your ability to pull your weight. And if after all of these years you're unable to grasp that MR is a meaningless metric for experience, I am left to wonder what you've been doing in this game all this time.

Yes leeches can be an issue. But the suggestion that having any sub-30 gear is the hallmark of a leech, is nonsense. 

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3 hours ago, (XB1)Erudite Prime said:

ESO is an xp farm

Literally this. I offer my condolences to OP if hes grinding for that 1% drop chance cosmetic that look like it was made in 10 minutes, but as far as gamemodes go there's no reason to tryhard ESO considering how low quality the rewards are(no surprise there) not to mention the rate at which enemies spawn coupled with how baby-proof the XP sharing mechanic is, make it the best place to level weapons. Maybe if the game didn't try to hold your hand so much and give you so many opportunities to cut your losses and evac safely we would see less leaches and more committed players trying to keep their bounty. But until the training wheels come off this is what we're dealt, like it or not.

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Posted (edited)
13 hours ago, Jarriaga said:

 

Quoting Rebecca herself:

"For consistency, damage link abilities (Trinity, Nidus, Nekros) will no longer transmit self-damage, but you will still get the damage reduction. This is particularly relevant for the healer/support class of Trinity who had become the go-to DPS frame in addition to the intended support roles. The re-release of Mods like Aviator added to some clever but ultimately uncharacteristic roles for Trinity."

Which remains a bad decision to this day. Because now Trinity went from something with versatility to becoming a one trick pony.

 

Same issue when they "fixed" Wukong's glaive nuke. Now all he's good for is staying alive.

Edited by Xepthrichros
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4 hours ago, Buttaface said:

Didn't read whole thread. SEVERAL higher level WF game modes need to have weapon level locks including ESO. Leeching is truly out of hand.

Level your damn weapons in regular SO, lower bounties, lower void fissures, outside sorties, outside arbitration, lower tiles than t4 void, not on Eidolons, do Hydron or other standard leveling tiles, and stop being a freaking leech in the higher content just because you can leech more affinity there.

Your comment is very conflicting.

You argue that low-level gear should be restricted on certain planet nodes and missions, but each planet does have a "Dark Sector" that enables increase of experience points and higher enemy level gains too. Earth is a planet available for low Mastery Rank players, which restricting them from doing Eidolon runs makes no sense. 

[If Players are capable to sustain and support their squad members with low-level weapons equipped, then who cares if they are also taking advantage of the affinity bonus gained.] 

 

If "leeching" is a problem for you, then host and form your own squads or play the game on "Invite Only" or "Solo" modes.

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If I had it my way you would be required to have atleast 1 level 30 weapon so without a doubt you could possibly contribute somewhat regardless of your frame. Even if it was just one weapon at level 30 required it would not be to big a roadblock and still allow people the choice to come in and level. But the question is why not just do Hydron for kill frames and guns, Then Adaro stelth farm with equinox for melee? The main appeal of doing ESO is for the relics, vandal parts and focus, and people leaving before zone 8 has the potential to waste the other players time if you were the main killer so if your using ESO for affinity you should really reconsider. Some of those rewards only appear after 8 zones so you should really just try to push up to that ya know...

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i said it before. remove affinity from ESO. ESO is for focus farming. replace affinity with focus strickly drop/items (even if it has to be created). this will removing people going into ESO to lvl.

there are so many ways to gain affinity that no end game mode should reward it at all. arbitration? replace affinity with endo since this mode is for farming endo.

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