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The Game is a Veteran's Wasteland right now. Difficulty Slider when?

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Posted (edited)
29 minutes ago, Pizzarugi said:

 

4X5y4DN.png

4 out of the 6 top frames among MR25 players all have 1 thing in common: Maximum efficiency, namely pressing 4 to delete everything in front of or around you from 50 meters away.

Players value efficiency, and given how grossly overpowered they are now, people will flock towards whatever will let them grind content faster. Ergo, "GOTTA GO FAST!" and "GIVE IT TO ME NAO!" mindset.

Yikes. FYI posting a graph doesn't give your argument credibility. You're still jumping to some conclusions that aren't necessarily evidenced by this data.

Let me Illustrate.

4 out of the top 6 most used Warframes at MR25 are press 4 to kill frames (In your opionion). Thus, this means that you must be right about the player base valuing Efficiency over Content Difficulty.

See how that doesn't really add up? Warframe usage stats aren't a definitive representation of the Values and Philosophies held by players. Those ideas are far too intangible to boil down to simple math. And none of that addresses this very good point below.

50 minutes ago, Chipputer said:

It's inevitable that late-game features are going to be used much less than other features. That doesn't mean it shouldn't be implemented for those who desire it.

Just because something is used less doesn't mean it isn't valuable. What about the intangible value that isn't necessarily represented by usage data? For example, even if players aren't Experienced enough to use the Difficulty Slider, that doesn't mean they aren't playing the game motivated to bring their Arsenal to a level where they can use it. It seems like you only think players are only motivated by getting the content out of the way ASAP. But what about the motivation of wanting to be able to do something? Generally, when people can't do something, that motivates them to power up until they can do it. I'm pretty sure that's how a lot of people got to be powerful Warframe players to begin with. Sometimes having fun and playing harder content for the sake of flexing your build is its own reward. And that's the Late Game content that is lacking right now that DE should create for their loyal Veterans (who are fewer, but still important).

Edited by (PS4)Jedi_Arts_

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15 минут назад, (PS4)Jedi_Arts_ сказал:

4 out of the top 6 most used Warframes at MR25 are press 4 to kill frames (In your opionion). Thus, this means that you must be right about the player base valuing Efficiency over Content Difficulty.

Add the fact that usage stat is sometimes bs. I assume those are based on the same data our in game profile are showing. If so then I have bad news. For the last several years (when was Nekros released?) I spend 90% of my game time on Nekros (prime since that one was released). My profile still proudly shows me excal as most used frame ever and I didn't even touch him for around 4 years now. I'd call bs on this profile data. Thus if the graph presented is based on that data, I'll call bs on it too.

Also I assume people don't know ho to delete rooms with gara thus she is so low on that graph >_>

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Pizzarugi said:

You and I have already had this discussion, and like before, I still disagree.

Just replace the topic of "press-4-to-win mechanics being abused" with "veterans have all this power, but nothing is challenging".

Fixing enemy scaling isn't going to fix the issue of veterans not having anything to do. In fact, it would further compound the issue as enemies will undoubtedly be made easier and thus more boring.

At this point, it's going to take de to have some balls to change something. I've been arguing about this for a whole year and tbh I tired of talking about this. The lack of forward thought of balancing this game for new and old is showing DE's laziness. I'll be more hyped for a armor and good damage rework then open worlds. Next time I see a topic on armor reworks. I'll just spam, "something something, armor needs a rework." 

Edited by moostar95
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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, Pizzarugi said:

clarified in an edit. The down-scaling only happens in PoE if you team up with someone who is lower leveled than you and they're in a lower-leveled zone. This only applies to act content and not maps. Absolutely nothing changes if you go to act content solo, you'll still be vastly overleveled.

The only thing this ensures is that most experienced player will solo on the star chart or they will quit as soon as they see an under-geared player in the party. 

Edited by Warhydra
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4 minutes ago, Warhydra said:

The only thing this ensures is that most experienced player will solo on the star chart or they will quit as soon as they see an under-geared player in the party. 

I was only mentioning that being part of Path of Exile, not suggesting it for Warframe. 😛

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9 hours ago, -OP-NerevarCM said:

PoE added down scaling? Now I have a good reason to not go back to that game.

 

From my understanding it's optional. Previously there was a large exp penalty for playing with other players much lower in level.

Now you can enable the downscale and they level quicker. I don't think it does much for you but neither did the previous situation.

It's strictly based on party members, not content. Leveling to 80 has become fairly trivial in PoE anyways. 90+ is where the old school kicks in. I've never taken GGG for being idiots and down scaling is probably one of the dumber concepts in RPG's as of recent years.

___________

On subject though. A difficulty slider would be nice but I doubt it will go high enough. A lot of players would be surprised how well the game starts to work around lvl 300 Solo. Groups less so but it's better than just pressing a button and deleting the map I guess. There's still a lot of things DE themselves have broken over the years in desperate acts to keep players invested in trash level 100 enemies with all the area denial,  CC counters / Immune mechanics now that the game just works less and less in general.

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Why tho? 

Will I get better rewards at higher difficulty?

And What is better? X resources at low, 1.5 x at mid and 2x at high? 

I personally would like a slider because planets like earth and Mars is too easy for my overpowered gear, but I like the tileset itself so if I can get some level 50 enemies it would be nice. 

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16 hours ago, Pizzarugi said:

What needs to happen is nerfs to bring players themselves in line with the star chart. At the very least, they need to introduce "down-scaling" other games like Guild Wars 2, Path of Exile (recently introduced, but only for parties with teammates who are weaker and in act content), and Destiny 2 do. If a player enters a mission that is well below them in difficulty, their damage gets lowered dramatically so you don't obliterate everything.

Slight aside, but I love how long it's taking modern video games to "discover" mechanics that City of Heroes had 15 years ago. Scaling players to their team-mates and then scaling content to that shouldn't be something video games have to add after the fact. It ought to be a feature on release. Pretty much every game that Cryptic have released since they parted ways with City of Heroes has had this on a global scale, from Champions Online to Star Trek Online to Neverwinter. Of course, that doesn't quite work in Warframe since all gear scales independently and there exists no "character level" to speak of, but my point stands.

 

16 hours ago, (PS4)Jedi_Arts_ said:

ESO? No, none of these builds would work in ESO because that requires way to much AoE DPS. Arbitration? No, those drones would just make these builds meaningless. Sorties? No, these first 2 missions aren't even a high enough level to really get a feel for it. And the 3rd mission is an Excavation, and that's no good for these builds. And after that Sorties would go on cooldown for the day anyways. Kuva Flood? Oh wait, I already did it so I'm locked out until this arbitrary cooldown ends. And it's not like I need Kuva anyways.

This might come across as rude, but... How good could those builds really BE if they wouldn't work in a majority of content? If a build doesn't work in ESO or Arbitrations or Excavation, then what does it work in? Extermination? I understand that some builds are highly specialised, but to this extent?

 

16 hours ago, Pizzarugi said:

There doesn't need to be a difficulty slider. DE has been trying to keep everything in the star chart as much as possible.

What's the harm in having a difficulty slider, though? Not everyone asking for one wants to push enemies to level 165 or whatever they cap out as. I'd personally probably use it to push enemies on Earth and Mars to 30-40, maybe. That's about the level of content I tend to prefer, which typically limits me to Pluto, Sedna and Eris. Well, my personal favourite tileset is Jupiter, so why not let me play Jupiter mission at level 40? While it might not address the OP's concerns, having customisable difficulty is always a benefit as it allows players to better tailor their gaming experience to their own preferences.

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11 hours ago, Darth_Predator said:

Add the fact that usage stat is sometimes bs. I assume those are based on the same data our in game profile are showing. If so then I have bad news. For the last several years (when was Nekros released?) I spend 90% of my game time on Nekros (prime since that one was released). My profile still proudly shows me excal as most used frame ever and I didn't even touch him for around 4 years now. I'd call bs on this profile data. Thus if the graph presented is based on that data, I'll call bs on it too.

Also I assume people don't know ho to delete rooms with gara thus she is so low on that graph >_>

The data shown was a recent snapshot period in the game; not all data over all time.  Thus your whole statement is pointless unless you like straw.

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12 hours ago, Pizzarugi said:

4 out of the 6 top frames among MR25 players all have 1 thing in common: Maximum efficiency, namely pressing 4 to delete everything in front of or around you from 50 meters away.

Context is important, however. "Maximum efficiency," only applies if you can combine this data with mission data. On top of that, MR isn't what decides whether someone is at end-game or not. It merely says how many items they've leveled up. It's significant to mention that the frame usage is much more evenly spread out at MR25 than you're pretending.

If I remember right, Saryn was also recently reworked, at the time of this graph, and hadn't yet had her second tweak. Her usage data is going to be skewn as a result.

12 hours ago, Pizzarugi said:

You only need to camp around Fortuna's elevator or Cetus's door or visit high population relays to get an idea on the average frame being used

I see, quite literally, a grab bag of every single frame in the game when I do this. The only time it changes is when people are trying to do 6x3 Tridolons and Profit Taker runs.

 

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13 hours ago, Pizzarugi said:

A similar argument I've heard before from a different subject.

A difficulty slider with increased drop chances with harder tiers like what was introduced with Wolf event would suffice.

I also think that certain powers need a nerf. The 1 button Saryn thing has got to go. Make her require duration again to limit some of the efficiency of the build.

Change Eso and make it about Boss Rush Mode with random sortie conditions instead with increased levels every round.

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Posted (edited)
20 hours ago, Pizzarugi said:

There doesn't need to be a difficulty slider. DE has been trying to keep everything in the star chart as much as possible.

What needs to happen is nerfs to bring players themselves in line with the star chart. At the very least, they need to introduce "down-scaling" other games like Guild Wars 2, Path of Exile (recently introduced, but only for parties with teammates who are weaker and in act content), and Destiny 2 do. If a player enters a mission that is well below them in difficulty, their damage gets lowered dramatically so you don't obliterate everything.

LOL. 

Ok, I've built my character up to level 100. Let me bring my level 100 character to a level 5 mission. Oh snap, my level 100 character destroys level 5 enemies in 1 second! The shock! The incredulity! I should ask the devs to make my time spent leveling to 100 completely pointless by turning my level 100 character to become as weak as the starting level 1 character on my team! 

So genius logic! I am so smart. This is the best idea! 

I should also ask the devs to hand me all the warframes and everything else from day one because literally nothing matters. No leveling matters. No grinding matters. All the frames are marginally better than the one next to it so it all doesn't matter! Fashionframe endgame!

The whole game's difficulty is the same! Level 1? Level 100? What's levels? Sedna is the same as Mercury! Who needs locations or levels? Who needs mods? Throw them out! Why endo? Why grind for blueprints? Why all this time and resource gating? Such a chore! Everything is the same! Give me everything when I install warframe and let me just pay for tennogen and skins!

 

/heavy sarcasm 

 

Yeah, instead of asking for that level 100 dungeon (or in the parlance of topic starter, a difficulty slider) so that our level 100 characters can fight there and experience endgame, let's go request our level 100 characters to be as weak as a starting player's character cos we hate our lives and all the progression and time spent in the game is meant to be treated as rubbish.

EDIT: And to not beat about the bush, and for people who don't comprehend analogies and don't understand what I mean when I say "level 100" and strawman me and say warframe has no levels. I'll just highlight a specific go-to example that people always shout for nerfs at. Saryn.

What is she good at? She's a horde-killer. She nukes rooms. She does it very well, and has some tankiness to survive when the nuking goes slower than expected (for players who mod wrong or don't have all the best arcanes yet). You can say she is a A++ rank horde killer and an B rank survivor. What is she NOT inherently good at? Stealth. Probably rank C at stealth. Doesn't mean you can't do spy flawlessly as her, but it does mean she does NOT have built-in abilities to handle stealth with ease. Compared to Ivara, who is a definite A++ rank at stealth, capable of walking through all lasers and sensors and being invisible with that augment, for as long as you have energy, but B or C at nuking in a wide AOE. Ivara, who requires farming Spy missions till you memorize all the layouts just to get the parts, outclasses Loki in stealth, whom you can probably rate a A+ or  A in stealth. But for the effort of farming, Ivara's stealth is therefore > Loki. Saryn's farm requires points from the Grineer arena, before you fight the boss that gives her parts, so her AOE nuking > starter frame like Mag's. And returning to the "level" analogy, you have a level-100 horde-killer like Saryn, thus give her end game content. There will be other "level 100s" at other things, like a level-100 boss-killer, Chroma, and level-100 infiltrator, like Ivara. Then we get the hybrid frames that do multiple things but not as strong as the level-100 niche frames, e.g Ash - stealth and DPS, Nezha - AOE nuke/CC + strong survival. 

And if such explaining still goes over your head then you really don't get Warframe, or really are trying to be pedantic and what not in your attempts to dismiss what I am saying. 

Edited by Xepthrichros
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Posted (edited)
On 2019-05-15 at 6:55 PM, SordidDreams said:

Then you might be playing the wrong game, friend.

I used to play the right game when I first picked it up back in 2013, but I'm increasingly of the opinion that it isn't. The grind was fine and tolerable. I could play at a leisurely pace and get the gear that appealed to me within a few days. As a reward for respecting my time and for making a visible effort at delivering enjoyable content, I spent a fairly crazy amount of dosh on the game. I felt the devs had earned it and I wanted to see the game improve.

Then things like the Hema, Sibear, Vauban Prime, and Knux started to happen. I spent less and less money but still kept playing.

A few months ago, with the advent of the Fortuna update and associated new content (and grind), DE has lost enough respect from me that I now refuse to fund them by buying plat or PA. I've even stopped recommending the game to prospective new players. If it gets any grindier and buggier, I'll outright drop the game until such time as they tone things done a bit.

You want my money and time, DE? Earn it by respecting your player-base's time and effort better. You had a really good FTP model back in the day - before you got bought out. It's still better than the FTP models used in other games...but not, arguably, by much.

On 2019-05-15 at 6:55 PM, SordidDreams said:

Yes, I agree that game health is definitely far more important than a handful of people whining.

So if you want a healthy game... grinding for the sake of grinding is healthy for the game...how?

Given the number of people that complain regularly about the level of grind and burnout, I'd say that the current level of said grind it's pretty unhealthy...especially when said people wind up going on hiatus or out-right dropping the game.

Yes, the number of registered users is in the millions...but how many of those users are actively playing? 42+mil registered users doesn't mean much if a sizable chunk of those accounts are dead because of burnout from grind. Player retention is not one of WF's strong points, and while player burnout isn't the only reason for that (new player experience still arguably sucks), it's a pretty good reason nonetheless.

Edited by MirageKnight
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i just hope with more difficulty they bring some better enemies with higher the lvl into the game cuz most the time we just see nothing but the same trash mobs that die instantly to anything that required less than 2 brain cells to fight. when are they gonna make some enemy mechanics that can counter some frames so its not just spamming to map clear/freeze, enemies that require more skill/aiming to actually take down, or some enemies gaining/giving buffs example maybe do bonus dmg to tank frames so u do more than stand there to look pretty (and yes im aware most frames will just get one shot anyway but tanks take waaaay longer to which honestly kinda put a improper balance). when are they gonna work on enemy visual/physical design i mean look at shield lancers why is a shield unit so small when their purpose is to block fire, why do everything look the same when enemies should be distinguishable from each other (im especially staring at eximus leech units), and arbitration drones are more of an annoyance than difficulty as their mechanic isnt how you instill fun difficulty but their design really for a unit making everything invulnerable to everything isnt made easily recognizable? then scaling oh how scaling is so screwy not only on enemies but our gear as well that is badly balanced out that it actually manages to trigger some ocd in me somehow. when are we going to balance out armor, shields, health, and even abilities on everything so frames are doing more than just map nuking, armor stripping is more useful to more than just grineer (which sometimes i wonder what is the point when they enable 4 cp stacking), and ironically make infested/corpus less idk insta killed kinda like how fortuna made them tougher. i just want some combat/difficulty that require my attention more especially when you can cheese out missions still falling half asleep or without having to spend a couple hours in a singular mission to finally feel some challenge but at some point only felt extremely repetitive doing the same thing over in a dull manner despite everything is capable of giving you a 1 shot death.

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Posted (edited)
13 hours ago, MirageKnight said:

So if you want a healthy game... grinding for the sake of grinding is healthy for the game...how?

I didn't say anything about grind anywhere in the conversation you're replying to. It was about power creep and nerfs, which have nothing to do with grind. I do agree that excessive grind is bad and I'm very happy that DE is removing quite a lot of it (e.g. arcanes that you can directly buy rather than having to build them, bosses dropping fishing and mining resources, making those activities almost entirely optional, etc.).

I just hope that's a sign of them learning that too much grind is bad rather than cynically altering the level of grind to maximize profit. If they ever get it into their heads that they can deliberately make new content excessively grindy to maximize profit from selling the items for plat, then reduce the grind later to appease the player base and score goodwill points because "we listen to player feedback"? And just keep repeating that exact same cycle with every new update? Yeah, that'll be the death of this game.

13 hours ago, MirageKnight said:

things like the Hema, Sibear, Vauban Prime, and Knux started to happen

I feel that those are mostly fine, the most objectionable of them IMO being Vauban. But as far as I can tell, Hema and Sibear are an attempt to give players who have everything some distant goal to work toward. That's the fundamental problem WF and all other online games face, it takes way longer to produce content than to consume it. So if DE make the new stuff hard to acquire to keep people busy until a new batch of stuff is ready, it's "too much grind!". If they make it quick to acquire, people end up with nothing to do and complain about "content drought!".

I suspect the Sibear and Hema were an attempt to address that. Got nothing else to do? Well, there's always the Sibear and Hema... And I also think DE deliberately made these weapons pretty crappy, so that people who don't have the time to grind for them wouldn't care about missing out, since there's not much to miss out on. Of course, that didn't quite work out, people still complain.

Edited by SordidDreams
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20 minutes ago, SordidDreams said:

...

I just hope that's a sign of them learning that too much grind is bad rather than cynically altering the level of grind to maximize profit. If they ever get it into their heads that they can deliberately make new content excessively grindy to maximize profit from selling the items for plat, then reduce the grind later to appease the player base and score goodwill points because "we listen to player feedback"? And just keep repeating that exact same cycle with every new update? Yeah, that'll be the death of this game.

...

That's actually a very good point, and I both agree and disagree. There are several things at play here:

  • People vastly prefer "buffs" to "nerfs", so in this case it's a good idea for a developer to initially err on the side of "too much" than "too little".
     
  • There will be an initial rush, and after a while things settle down a bit. That's the point where the data and feedback they gather will be the most meaningful, because once introduced, most things are meant to stay.
     
  • It's in their own interest to compress at least some of the expected time investment in the long term, so more people can progress to the new and state-of-the-art content faster.
     
  • Not to mention cleaning up some cruft that after years of accumulation is more confusing than meaningful.

 

So in the end it's down to finding the sweet spot in all of this, and I don't envy them when they have to decide on those things. That's not to say the players shouldn't point out the problems, though.

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I get this as a whole. It's frustrating to find my nyx is afkable in almost any mission I regularly encounter.

I discussed this a while back with some friends,so here's my idea.

Starchat +

Node begin at level 80 -120 with 2x scaling

Resources have a based 4x increase.

Basic/ trash mods are removed,replaced by a forma.

Relics drop in pairs instead of singles. 

Nightmare missions become,well,a nightmare.

Seems simple enough for us "end-game" lovers. I mean really,we should have a casual mode vrs a "oh yeah?Mot Axi survival up,starting level of 140? 1 hr runs guys,let's do it".

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Doing the same things with higher level enemies IS NOT CONTENT.  This is a gimmick.

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Put on an Extinguished key.  If they gave more rewards for doing that you'd just have everything quicker and be whining about that instead.

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39 minutes ago, PatternistSlave said:

Put on an Extinguished key.  If they gave more rewards for doing that you'd just have everything quicker and be whining about that instead.

All I want for warframe is for de to fix old frames and armor scaling. But everytime I say so. I get called a fool for asking.

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How about a "join in" difficulty with the same scaling? So lets say:

 

 

Easy - Join at wave 0

Medium - Join wave 20 for +25% bosst to all rewards (also endo, credits and relics +1 rarity)

Hard - Join wave 40 for +50%

Challenge - Join wave 80 for +100%

Heroic - Join wave 160 for +200% (max)

 

So we would just save time... instead of clearing trash for 40 waves we could just jump in wave 40 and start there

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6 hours ago, Mad5cout said:

Doing the same things with higher level enemies IS NOT CONTENT.  This is a gimmick.

It's not the end all, be all solution, but it's needed. We shouldn't be fighting the same starter level enemies after finishing the Star Chart and maxing our progression. And yet we are forced to - everytime new content or primes come out, everyone farms the same level enemies, new players and veterans alike. That's nonsensical for a progression based looter game. 

Every other looter shooter has difficulty tiers, it makes no sense for WF to not have that, and the devs finally realized this.

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6 hours ago, Mad5cout said:

Doing the same things with higher level enemies IS NOT CONTENT.  This is a gimmick.

But its more satisfying to kill a level 300 mob or survive level 300 content than level 13 for over one hour...

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