AI Advancement, Difficulty Scaling, And Dated Tutorials

[(NSW)MasterDarkwingz]

This thread is here to let DE know that there is indeed, a way to make more concise and clear ways which encourage new players to play on the same level as veteran players.

As the current difficultly level stands, it's very easy for new players to become confused as to why their max level 30 Warframe is able to participate (and die) in an up to level 100 sortie.

The fact remains that there are features within the game that are not quite elaborated on, such as increasing the mod point cap, specific movements or tactics, or the useless level indication system.

Some features such as "level" are often misleading for newer players, and are best to be polished with a different sorting system name or function. (Such as Combat Power in other games.)

There's a multitude of player Youtube tutorials already out there, no doubt, but every player likes to do their status (mods) in their own and more personal way.
A tutorial in which the player can freely experiment on enemy AI, within a demonstration of selecting from a complete list of possible mods for their warframe could get players more excited to farm.

Tenshin is like the noble teacher to the Operator, I should hardly doubt that he would hesitate to offer the Tenno any new repeatable tutorial quests. (Which are also located within the codex.)

 

The importance of adding in new or polished tutorials is the factor in which developers must recall that no two players will learn or play the game in the same way.

Some players might not even master the entire game, which brings us back to the Mastery Ranks. Mastery Rank Tests have often been disputed within the community. (Going as far back as 2016)

These disputes are as to whether they are even required to "master the game," or if they're simply achievements that lock Warframe Primes behind an unfair difference in user skill.

If Warframe values "Ninjas Play Free," then what about those who can't master a Mastery Test? Can they never complete the locked Prime Warframe/Weapon for free as well?

Prime Access certainly isn't a cost free package, I can assure you of that.

Unless additional tutorials designed to assist in MR preparedness are introduced, we're left with a Mastery Rank Test Skip button.

There is no doubt that the most common complaint from veteran players about a theoretical Skip Mastery Rank Test button, is the possibility of an unfair advantage to new users.

If the removal of Mastery Rank requirements is implemented correctly alongside a mission difficulty slider, then unfairness should not be the case, and should not interfere with veteran PvE game play in the least.

 

This is where the next topic comes to hand.

I'm here to assure you, that if DE inquires NVIDIA on the topic of AI, they will most definitely find that AI development has drastically advanced within the 6 years of developing Warframe.

An advanced AI in the right programmer's hands won't take up too much memory or processing for XB1/PS4/PC/NSW if an update is agreed upon by the DE dev team. 

This AI is not only developed for the NPC action AI, but can also be used for quick and simple biome generation. This means more content areas for new items at a faster development rate.

By pushing the boundaries, advanced AI can be utilized to make a slider that reaches from easy to near infinite difficulty.

Maybe DE could even utilize the varying difficulties and zone generators to implement a brand new zone generator for any future open world experience.

This way, veteran players can always be on their toes, and maybe they'll get excited to see new scenery.

 

Which leads us onto the next topic.

Difficulty scaling via a Difficulty Slider is a new and more modern feature of competing games on the NSW/PC, which puts Warframe behind in the development race at E3 next month.

This difficulty scaling is best described as a player selected slider or button, with a reward pool that also scales in accordance to the selected difficulty.

If you pick easy, you get normal drops at a higher rate than rares. You go to nightmare and beyond, then the rare drops with appear more often.

A difficulty slider might be capable of providing new players the same experience as a veteran player at a more "nerfed," yet easier and lower value reward pool. 

One argument is that going into every pre-established node to add in a difficulty slider would take too much time or money.

The value in cost of time or money is purely up to DE to decide whether or not it should be added into new content, or old content.

Therefore, as a precaution, I would recommend DE pick certain missions for players to experiment with, once a difficulty slider is agreed upon and ready for public testing.

Another argument is that if the Mastery Rank becomes a simple achievement for the highly skilled to show off, and difficulty sliders are implemented with the destruction of MR requirements...

Then by theory, any new player can unlock a prime warframe/weapon for free just like a veteran player.

Yet this argument appears to most often promote the irritated view of "unfair hand holding" in the eyes of the veteran player. (Irregardless of either F2P or Platinum mechanics.)

However, if the difficulty is easier with less and lower value drops, then it might take the new player double the time to clear something like an Eidelon on a much easier mode, compared to the veteran player who has more experience and a faster clear time.

Meanwhile, a truly skilled veteran player might be running the Infinite Nightmare mode to reach a target personal best, landing on an official Ranking Board to get a complete Prime Warframe/Weapon or some other new/recycled content.

The only difference between the Prime weapons from the veteran player to the new player, isn't that the new player would have paid to skip the mastery test, it's the fact that the AI automatically adjusts the status of specific MR unlocked weapons/Warframes on certain lower difficulties to match the status of the recommended MR weapons/frames. 

Skills between players are indeed different, but finding that PvE balance with a new AI technology can make "Ninjas Play Free," without sacrificing any bragging rights.

Those of a higher personal skill will get to participate in the highest difficulties through a more enticing rankings board.

(IE- Not just defending your rank in solo achievements on an infinity difficulty, but defending your squad achievement ranks as well.)

 

DE, please consider all of what the new and more advanced technology can offer both you and the players.

Especially when reviewing the Mastery Rank Tests and old tutorial quests for revamp consideration.

A difficulty slider will help to polish the new player experience, and help keep the veterans happy with more difficulty. However, it's still up to you to develop the new content.

Warframe is unique, as with all videogames in it's genre like to say.

However, after DE's 6 years of Warframe, I still see the same trend of forum posts on Warframe Google searches. Most are to ask how to pass a Mastery Rank Test, or how to skip one.

How DE decides to develop Warframe from now on will be most important. Not as "Ninjas Play Free," but as a company with a business to run.

Currently the only way to bypass a Mastery Rank requirement, is to purchase the Prime Warframe or Prime Weapon directly off a Market bundle.

This generates revenue, yet it's not considered pay to win by the community, but rather pay to skip.

If a player is incapable/too lazy to clear a Mastery Rank test, and instead decides that they're willing to pay $10 for a MR Test Skip Ticket, or $40 for a Prime Warframe beyond the normal unlocks methods, then doesn't that match the previous statement? Shouldn't there always be more options for everything?

Nightwave is certainly a good start, but it won't solve a Mastery Rank Test Skip request.

All Nightwave provides is more content via automatic rotating challenges. You can't even manually refresh it for more challenges, but veteran players don't seem to be complaining.

Your player base simply cannot compromise for themselves on how to fix or improve anything, so this is where you would normally step in as a company after six years.

If the Mastery Rank Tests truly need as much of a reveamp for new players as the old tutorials, then wouldn't implementing a temporary Platinum MR Test Skip button be capable of generating the same type of revenue as Prime Access or Cosmetics? You'd still have to do the leveling like everyone else, but like paying for Prime Access, you won't be doing the hard work yourself.

Couldn't that generated revenue also be used to fund the implementation of the new changes, challenges, and improvements to Warframe? 

Would marketing even consider the fact that veterans might feel a lack of challenge due to outdated, and less complex AI?

Could DE possibly turn a profit off any of these player suggested changes or improvements?

 

These are all legitimate business concerns, in my opinion. I would heavily consider your options, DE. Are you E3 spotlight material for next year, or will you win the most washed up award?

Either way, there's no use sitting there ignoring your community while you hold a gallon of maple syrup for your pancakes.

You say you've set a road map, certain goals. Just what are they, really?

Do you intend to wait on the community to 48%-100% come to an agreement on anything before saying something in reply?

It almost seems as if your veteran player base does not want anything updated after 6 years, and simply wants new content at an opposite difficulty level from the new player content.

Every time something new is too hard for the new players, then they complain as well. It's almost as if there is no balance, despite Warframe being a pure PvE experience.

So why not at least let marketing take the development of a difficulty slider into consideration? It solves all your problems in one go, and will succeed in the right hands.

Or you know... just sit here for 5 more years and not decide on anything yourself, because your players continue to argue about what they presume you think is best for yourself as a company.

After all, you do still have the trump card of GvG needing polish ten times over, and Fortnite isn't getting any less popular. You gotta polish something, anything that can make a bang.

Make Ninjas Play Free not just a statement, but something epic, and something no one else could possibly compete against.

Or continue to fail in juggling the difference of the delicate content balance scale, set between the skill sets of noisy veterans and shy newer players.

That's really all a company is about, open competition and compromise between the player community.

I've tried giving feedback before, and no one likes it. I try to suggest improvements to my suggestions, and no one likes those either.

I honestly can't give much more advice to you, DE. I can't even ask for the community to try and agree to a compromise for a simple Skip Mastery Test button, either.

I think that just about ends this list.

 

[(PSN)Knightfyre]

After having read this message, as well as your previous thread insisting on the implementation of a Let-Me-Skip-My-Mastery-Rank-Test-And-Reap-All-The-Rewards button (aka a Pay-To-Win button), there is one thing in particular that stands out to me.  Aside from the fact that I noticed you responded to other players while completely disregarding what I posted in that thread--thus demonstrating your preference in continuing to argue rather than actually trying to overcome the obstacle you're facing--I couldn't help but notice your seeming inability to resist the urge to be insulting.

9 hours ago, (NSW)MasterDarkwingz said:

I would heavily consider your options, DE. Are you E3 spotlight material for next year, or will you win the most washed up award?

Either way, there's no use sitting there ignoring your community while you hold a gallon of maple syrup for your pancakes.

Seriously?  You come to DE asking them to make a change to accommodate you, but you thought including this kind of jab was necessary?  And WTF does maple syrup and pancakes have to do with game development--oh, wait, I see... was that supposed to be an insult since they are a Canadian company?  Good grief.

 

9 hours ago, (NSW)MasterDarkwingz said:

I'm here to assure you, that if DE inquires NVIDIA on the topic of AI, they will most definitely find that AI development has drastically advanced within the 6 years of developing Warframe.

An advanced AI in the right programmer's hands won't take up too much memory or processing for XB1/PS4/PC/NSW if an update is agreed upon by the DE dev team.

With regard to DE implementing some newfangled AI solution from nVidia, I'll remind you of PhysX--another nVidia SDK that Warframe previously used, until nVidia quit supporting that and DE had to go in and replace it with their own particle system (in the end, this wasn't a bad move IMO, as the particle effects in Warframe look better than ever, especially on consoles!)  In light of that, I wouldn't doubt that DE might think long and hard before incorporating some third-party company's SDK into their game again, considering that they might very well have to go back and retrofit it with their own code if'/when that company decides to drop that tech like a hot rock.

 

As for the Mastery Rank system, its impact on the game as a whole goes a bit deeper than simply whether or not your can build your Chroma Prime.  As described in the Warframe wiki, higher Mastery Ranks unlock a number of benefits, including:

• Gradually unlocks an increasing number of weapons and warframes
• Raises the base mod capacity of unranked Warframes, companions, Archwings, and weapons by 1 point per rank
• Increases the number of trades available with other players each day by 1 trade per rank
• Increases the number of Resource Extractors that can be simultaneously deployed (at ranks 5 & 10)
• Increases the player's maximum Void Trace capacity by 50 per rank
• Raises the daily maximum of Focus points that can be earned through Focus Lenses by 5,000 per rank
• Increases the maximum daily Syndicate standing that can be gained with an equipped Sigil by 1,000 per rank

 

The Take-My-Money-And-Let-Me-Skip-My-Mastery-Rank-Test button (aka Pay-to-Win button) that you are proposing essentially trivializes one of the major progression systems in the game, and would rob players of a sense of pride and accomplishment for achieving different Mastery Ranks.

Edited May 16, 2019 by (PS4)Knightfyre

[Walkampf]

@(PS4)Knightfyre please, just don't feed the troll.

I read until the point where he suggested that DE should ask another Techcompany for advise in AI..

Either @(NSW)MasterDarkwingz is actually trolling or there is actually something wrong with his head.

[AlphaPHENIX]

1 hour ago, (PS4)Knightfyre said:

The Take-My-Money-And-Let-Me-Skip-My-Mastery-Rank-Test button (aka Pay-to-Win button) that you are proposing essentially trivializes one of the major progression systems in the game, and would rob players of a sense of pride and accomplishment for achieving different Mastery Ranks.

What pride and accomplishment is there in saying ''I took x amount of gear, went to the publically aceepted exp farming node for it's time. Got the gear to max rank, not using it once. Went to do my mastery test and passed it, like any other mission in the game.''?

To me that is simply tedious, especially the (Get gear you are not interested in, will never use and just gonna throw away, once the game thinks you've mastered it.) part.
You don't go to your local gun shop and say ''Give me that one! Ya, the one I don't actually want, but have to get cause I lost a bet or something. Oh and I will throw it in the trash tommorow.''.

What if instead, when starting a mastery rank test, you do a marathon? Go through every test in order, the one you fail at is where you stop and receive the mastery rank, for your last succesful test. After x amount of time, you can try again with presumably better preparation and see what happens. If you are short on time, you can start from the last test you were at. If you want to, you can start at the begining. No redundant mastery points farming required; you go as far as you can, fail, get more skilled at the game, go further.

[(PSN)thefallenloser]

4 hours ago, (NSW)MasterDarkwingz said:

I've tried giving feedback before, and no one likes it. I try to suggest improvements to my suggestions, and no one likes those either.

 I honestly can't give much more advice to you, DE. I can't even ask for the community to try and agree to a compromise for a simple Skip Mastery Test button, either.

That's because your feedback and compromise wasn't at all realistic and made you seem like an entitled brat. 

[DrivaMain]

10 hours ago, AlphaPHENIX said:

What pride and accomplishment is there in saying ''I took x amount of gear, went to the publically aceepted exp farming node for it's time. Got the gear to max rank, not using it once. Went to do my mastery test and passed it, like any other mission in the game.''?

To me that is simply tedious, especially the (Get gear you are not interested in, will never use and just gonna throw away, once the game thinks you've mastered it.) part.
You don't go to your local gun shop and say ''Give me that one! Ya, the one I don't actually want, but have to get cause I lost a bet or something. Oh and I will throw it in the trash tommorow.''.

 What if instead, when starting a mastery rank test, you do a marathon? Go through every test in order, the one you fail at is where you stop and receive the mastery rank, for your last succesful test. After x amount of time, you can try again with presumably better preparation and see what happens. If you are short on time, you can start from the last test you were at. If you want to, you can start at the begining. No redundant mastery points farming required; you go as far as you can, fail, get more skilled at the game, go further.

The problem is that a very skilled new player who has experiences in previous games like first person shooters or parkour games can reach MR 27 in just 1 attempt or two, thus skipping hours of progression. The intent of the MR system is to incentivize people to try out different weapons to see if they are interested in it or not, it’s more like a test drive on my opinion. Unless DE heavily time gate it of course.

 

And for the OP, I could smell this is just a sneaky way to re-introduce your previous “suggestions”. I will say it again, we don’t want Warframe to be Pay to Win with your “suggestions”

I suggest you get off of this forum, you are just embarrassing yourself.

Edited May 16, 2019 by DrivaMain

[LordPantaloonsthe3rd]

[Rasputin]

[ACraZYHippIEZA]

So, from what i have gathered, you basically cannot be asked to try to learn how to play the game and want a pay to skip button ?
I do not personally see the point behind this, paying to skip content.

In context to the multiple times you have referenced wanting to pay to skip the Mastery Rank challenges, lets just say you skip one and what happens after that ?
You paid to skip a piece of "tutorial content", which means you are effectively robbing you of the potential knowledge you would gain by trying to do it, even if you fail it a few times, you will start to remember what to do, muscle memory is a hell of a thing in warframe and eventually succeeding.

As for the Nightwave section, i have no idea what it has to do with the general topic, but you've clearly not heard "Veterans" complain about it. (Yes, even Veterans do complain about Nightwave), but in general its relatively simple to do, it just takes time and effort. Not everything will be handed to you on a silver platter.

You must input time and energy and you must be willing to learn, otherwise you'll never get anywhere.

[electricookie14]

[AlphaPHENIX]

8 hours ago, DrivaMain said:

The problem is that a very skilled new player who has experiences in previous games like first person shooters or parkour games can reach MR 27 in just 1 attempt or two, thus skipping hours of progression.

Yes, of course there will be that problem, but I consider it a far lesser issue then all the ones of the current system.

[(NSW)MasterDarkwingz]

9 hours ago, Ninben said:

Indeed. It's as if having outdated AI and Technology is what you guys want Warframe to maintain.

It's called development, you have to explain why AI is important to incorporate into everything these days through examples. (Which I provided.)

Either you improve the enemy and zone AI for skilled players, or dumb it down for unskilled players.

Either you take a look at Mastery Rank fairness and importance to a new difficulty scaling system, or you maintain everything as is.

If you don't do anything, then you literally can't improve anything for both new and veteran players. (Unskilled and skilled alike.)

 

You people will keep stalking my feedback threads because you think I'm not of profit to DE for being unskilled or lazy.

This thread was heartfelt, and contains as much information as possible.

You just have to read the entire thing to get the entire picture of how I believe Warframe doesn't exactly think of thier road map properly as a business.

(They're thinking of community approved wins, but should be thinking of impressing at the scale of an E3 win.)

Doesn't matter if I have ideas you hate, I'm a paying customer as well. My ideas were merely incorporated as examples for a possible scenario.

It in no way reflects what DE's marketing or development team might progress with.

There's no need to be so attached to the "your ideas suck" bandwagon.

We all have ideas, so why not say yours instead of bashing mine all the time?

Please remember to be respectful and follow the forum ToS. Your criticism of me is never constructive for DE.

You might like the Maple Syrup and want it passed to you, but maybe you might also want that Maple Syrup mixed into your Berry Syrup.

 

 

14 hours ago, DrivaMain said:

The problem is that a very skilled new player who has experiences in previous games like first person shooters or parkour games can reach MR 27 in just 1 attempt or two, thus skipping hours of progression. The intent of the MR system is to incentivize people to try out different weapons to see if they are interested in it or not, it’s more like a test drive on my opinion. Unless DE heavily time gate it of course.

 

And for the OP, I could smell this is just a sneaky way to re-introduce your previous “suggestions”. I will say it again, we don’t want Warframe to be Pay to Win with your “suggestions”

I suggest you get off of this forum, you are just embarrassing yourself.

The test drive part possibly describes the MR system best. If time gates could be removed, then maybe my suggestions won't be needed at all.

As stated above, it wasn't a sneaky attempt to reintroduce my ideas, I just had no other ideas to introduce for possible solutions to the newbie/veteran problems at hand.

Please by all means, share yours. I mean that in a positive way.

 

 

Edit:

The syrup jokes are an attempt at a Canadian metaphor. Clearly NA east coast Ihop inspired ones don't make sense to anyone.

-Don't sit there holding a gallon of maple syrup for your pancakes= Don't just sit there with ideas waiting for something to happen, or someone to tell you to do it.

(If you like the syrup/ideas, go ahead and put as much in as you want, it's your pancakes/game.)

-You might like the Maple Syrup, but maybe you might also want it into your Berry Syrup= Don't knock it until you let DE release a test node for new NPC and difficulty AI/MR rescaling. (You might like it better that way, you never know.)

Edited May 17, 2019 by (NSW)MasterDarkwingz

[AKTKWNG]

I saw your previous post about the pay-to-skip MR test button from before, got that had already been locked down before I could post. It seems you're still somewhat caught up about that, but you've brought up some other points as well, so I'll address those first.

The new player experience issue is a well known one, and I think most players will agree that more tutorials at the beginning of the game are required. DE has already stated that a revamped new player experience is in progress.

The difficulty slider is also another thing that is widely agreed upon in the community, and is another thing that's on DE's list.

As for the AI thing, it seems like you have an overly idealistic view of what AI can accomplish. The goal of enemy AI in a game is not to be smart, or to be realistic, or to be unpredictable, the goal of AI in a game is to present a fun and interesting challenge for the player to overcome. The enemies in Mario games almost exclusive either walk to and fro, or run directly towards you with no strategy, and yet that is enough to provide an engaging experience to the player. If goombas were smarter, if they were able to read your movements and avoid your jumps, the game would become far worse to play, because you would no longer be able to reliably plan your jumps or use enemies as springs to reach further areas like you can now. Similarly, enemies in a horde shooter don't need to be overly clever. The enemy AI problems in Warframe really boil down to pathfinding and spawning logic, which really don't need any advanced AI tech to solve. And all this isn't even factoring the licensing fees in integrating nVidia proprietary technology into the game. Never over-engineer a solution to a simple problem.

The E3 comment honestly seemed completely out of the blue given the rest of your post. I assure that things like "difficulty sliders" and "pay-to-skip buttons" do not drive player hype in the slightest. Between the upcoming New War story quest and further updates on the Railjack game mode, rest assured that DE is not short on flashy show pieces for convention season.

And finally, on to the issue of MR tests. You seem to think that DE is prevented from changing the MR tests because of fear of player inertia, even while we're still seeing divided opinions on nightwave and melee 2.9, two highly disruptive changes to core gameplay mechanics. As anyone on the forums will tell you, DE will absolutely change things if they want to. The fact of the matter is, they will never let players pay to skip MR tests, because it would be irresponsible game design to do so. Despite the flaws of the system, MR tests serve as a checkpoint system to ensure that, over time, the player has learned fundamental skills for the game. Just like how if you can't pass a swimming certification test, you shouldn't be able to pay to gain access to the deep pool.

[(NSW)MasterDarkwingz]

3 hours ago, AKTKWNG said:

As anyone on the forums will tell you, DE will absolutely change things if they want to. The fact of the matter is, they will never let players pay to skip MR tests, because it would be irresponsible game design to do so. 

I was already aware that DE might change whatever they want, that's why I made the syrup metaphors.

(I presumed they only did whatever the community wants or whines about hating. I simply wanted them to think about themselves first, as a company.)

Thank you for your reply. To be honest, the MR Test Skip button wasn't that important to me.

What was important was the thought of locking Primes behind player skill level, when the possibility of balancing through a difficulty slider would suffice the game play nerfs/buffs.

(Though if DE did consider the Mastery Test Skip in the end for marketing's demand, I would still be appreciative.)

What was most important to me was feeling as if I had no idea the direction DE wanted to go in for the next 5 years. Your post assures me of this matter, albeit slightly.

The E3 comment may have seemed out of the blue, but it is quite literally right around the corner. You kinda have to have the demos ready to go by now.

If DE hadn't been planning anything this year, they could easily have been overshadowed by someone else.

All the replies to my OP simply came back to haunt this thread, as no one seems to have read the terms, "In theory," in my AI explanation example.

It's a theory because DE hasn't commented or committed to mine or any other player made concept, except the fact that the AI must be improved. 

While your insight on the lack of AI capability has me a bit disheartened, I still hold hope that DE at least improves that combat system AI to match the veteran demands of challenge, and newer/unskilled players of less difficulty.

There have been AIs known to copy and/or counter player tactics, so I wouldn't put it past DE to figure that one out in their own way.

 

 

Edited May 17, 2019 by (NSW)MasterDarkwingz

[(PSN)Knightfyre]

On 2019-05-16 at 1:06 AM, (NSW)MasterDarkwingz said:

You say you've set a road map, certain goals. Just what are they, really?

 

1 hour ago, (NSW)MasterDarkwingz said:

What was most important to me was feeling as if I had no idea the direction DE wanted to go in for the next 5 years.

 

I'm not sure if you're aware, but DE hosts what they call "DevStreams" on a fairly regular basis, typically on Fridays every other week or so (sometimes with longer breaks in between if they are working away feverishly on a new feature for the game, preparing for TennoCon, or on holiday).  I encourage you to check them out, as they are very informative and help to keep you up to date on what they are working on, as well as some direct Q&A with the playerbase.

The video below is their first stream of 2019, which was DevStream #122 on January 18th (they've had five more since then, and they will be live streaming #128 in the near future), which I'm linking here because in this particular stream they talked specifically about the road map you mentioned... in fact, [DE]Steve even broke out the white board to write down all the things that they are working on, as well as their plans into the future over the course of the next year:
 

 

As for E3, I'm not sure to what degree DE participates in that trade show (and frankly, I don't really pay that much attention anymore to stuff that's shown at E3, as time has proven that things shown in the past were not truly honest representations of the products that companies were actually working on, a deceptive business practice which leaves a really bad taste in my mouth).  However, for the past 3 years, DE has held their own "TennoCon" convention, which has gotten bigger and better each year.  Last year's main presentation was electrifyingly spectacular, where they did a live reveal of Fortuna (which was released shortly after TennoCon concluded) as well as the Railjack update that they will be releasing in the near future.  This year's TennoCon is scheduled for July 6, 2019, and is another great source of information to get a solid idea of what the developers are working on and where they envision taking the game as it evolves... definitely check that out!

Edited May 17, 2019 by (PS4)Knightfyre

[(NSW)MasterDarkwingz]

Though I have heard of the dev streams, what they seem to lack is the information or questions for the more competitive PvP inclined.

While there has been a competitor laughed out of the box office for completely eliminating competition in a PvE game, it's importaint to remember that DE labels it's game as PvE. (Ninjas Play Free is the slogan as well.)

Everyone is meant to be on the same team in Warframe, yet the seemingly only important thing to the hardcore audience about the MR unlock, is the status bonuses. 

If a difficulty slider AI can properly make automatic cap/mod adjustments to any frame/weapon, then you've successfully created enough balance to remove the MR requirement entirely. (The key word here is if.)

The only difference between the MR now and my AI Advancement suggestion would be pretty much nothing, as the extra status could still be MR skill locked while everything else is automatically balanced for the PvE difficulty at hand. DE wouldn't even have to buff/nerf at that point, they could focus on other more important things.

This is where the PvP conundrum occurs, the point to where DE has not much direction. (Dojo Wars was slaughtered due to poor design.)

Players are too hyper focused on the value of the extra status unlocks, and ignore the skill wall of other more casual or less skilled players.

I suggested having E3 demos ready precisely for this purpose.

At E3 the demos are meant to gauge user interaction, and survey the live feedback so that adjustments can be made later upon release/update.

Disclaimers are often added in order to confirm this factor, but most games generally don't adjust too much from the feature presentation.

The demo could prove that there are hardcore gamers that want more achievement off of PvE, and that DE needs to add more competitive content.

Of course, the E3 demo could always prove that maybe a little more laziness added into the MR test isn't as disagreeable as DE or other users might think.

(This is why some games simulate a cash shop/odd features for open beta or presentation tests, to determine selling point and profit.)

It could make current players upset to see a skip test button if it eventually passes, but DE would at least pique the interest of new and casual audiences alike.

Having direction on where to move the PvP aspect of the current PvE into an actual PvP mode is where I personally think DE should be going next.

If your audience is confused on where the competition in a cooperative game is/will be going/has gone, then you probably made the wrong genre of game mechanics.

 If that's the case, then DE's vision could be getting a forced change of perceptive from where they initially imagined it to be.

If not, then explain on the dev stream why there's PvP in your PvE game.

 

Edited May 17, 2019 by (NSW)MasterDarkwingz

[(PSN)Knightfyre]

4 hours ago, (NSW)MasterDarkwingz said:

Though I have heard of the dev streams, what they seem to lack is the information or questions for the more competitive PvP inclined.

While there has been a competitor laughed out of the box office for completely eliminating competition in a PvE game, it's importaint to remember that DE labels it's game as PvE. (Ninjas Play Free is the slogan as well.)

Everyone is meant to be on the same team in Warframe, yet the seemingly only important thing to the hardcore audience about the MR unlock, is the status bonuses. 

If a difficulty slider AI can properly make automatic cap/mod adjustments to any frame/weapon, then you've successfully created enough balance to remove the MR requirement entirely. (The key word here is if.)

The only difference between the MR now and my AI Advancement suggestion would be pretty much nothing, as the extra status could still be MR skill locked while everything else is automatically balanced for the PvE difficulty at hand. DE wouldn't even have to buff/nerf at that point, they could focus on other more important things.

This is where the PvP conundrum occurs, the point to where DE has not much direction. (Dojo Wars was slaughtered due to poor design.)

Players are too hyper focused on the value of the extra status unlocks, and ignore the skill wall of other more casual or less skilled players.

I suggested having E3 demos ready precisely for this purpose.

At E3 the demos are meant to gauge user interaction, and survey the live feedback so that adjustments can be made later upon release/update.

Disclaimers are often added in order to confirm this factor, but most games generally don't adjust too much from the feature presentation.

The demo could prove that there are hardcore gamers that want more achievement off of PvE, and that DE needs to add more competitive content.

Of course, the E3 demo could always prove that maybe a little more laziness added into the MR test isn't as disagreeable as DE or other users might think.

(This is why some games simulate a cash shop/odd features for open beta or presentation tests, to determine selling point and profit.)

It could make current players upset to see a skip test button if it eventually passes, but DE would at least pique the interest of new and casual audiences alike.

Having direction on where to move the PvP aspect of the current PvE into an actual PvP mode is where I personally think DE should be going next.

If your audience is confused on where the competition in a cooperative game is/will be going/has gone, then you probably made the wrong genre of game mechanics.

 If that's the case, then DE's vision could be getting a forced change of perceptive from where they initially imagined it to be.

If not, then explain on the dev stream why there's PvP in your PvE game.

I'm not sure where to start, but suffice it to say that I'm thoroughly confused after reading all of that.  Not to mention, I'm having a difficult time reconciling your bringing up PvP in Warframe... have you played the Conclave mode in Warframe?  There is a reason PvP is not the main selling point of Warframe... and, it seems to me, that anybody who is having difficulty passing the MR6 test would absolutely HATE playing in the Conclave (and there are many players who have passed it that do not enjoy the Conclave, myself included!)

Personally, I'm perfectly fine with PvP not being a major focus in Warframe--I've played Destiny and Destiny 2, where PvP in those games' Crucible, Iron Banner and Trials of the Nine modes have a far greater emphasis... while I do enjoy the PvE elements of those games, I DETEST those PvP game modes.  And to make matters worse, the developer of those games has gone to such extremes trying to balance weapons for use in PvP that it has ruined those same weapons efficacy in PvE.  I'm extremely glad that Warframe is focused more on the PvE aspects of the game; and when it comes to PvP, changes to weapons that DE makes for balance in the Conclave have zero impact on their use in PvE content (thank God for that!)

As for the "Ninjas Play Free" slogan, that simply refers to the fact that Warframe is a free-to-play game.  That's it.  You can download the game and play it without being required to spend a dime on it.  That's all it means, that's all the slogan implies--nothing more, nothing less, read nothing else into it.  By comparison, Bungie could not very well use the slogan "Guardians Play Free" because you have to buy the game to play it at all, and you have to buy the expansions as well if you want to play that added content.

Anyway, watch the DevStreams, or don't (but hey, if you watch the live DevStreams on Twitch or Mixer, and have a free account on either of those platforms and link it to your account at warframe.com, you can get free goodies just for watching *plus* even have a chance to win free platinum, Prime Access Packs, and other stuff that they randomly give away during the streams!).  But now, I've lead the proverbial horse to water, it's up to the horse to drink... not much else that can be done.  Be well.

Edited May 17, 2019 by (PS4)Knightfyre

[(NSW)MasterDarkwingz]

18 minutes ago, (PS4)Knightfyre said:

I'm not sure where to start, but suffice it to say that I'm thoroughly confused after reading all of that.  Not to mention, I'm having a difficult time reconciling your bringing up PvP in Warframe... have you played the Conclave mode in Warframe?  There is a reason PvP is not the main selling point of Warframe... and, it seems to me, that anybody who is having difficulty passing the MR6 test would absolutely HATE playing in the Conclave (and there are many players who have passed it that do not enjoy the Conclave, myself included!)

Personally, I'm perfectly fine with PvP not being a major focus in Warframe--I've played Destiny and Destiny 2, where PvP in those games' Crucible, Iron Banner and Trials of the Nine modes have a far greater emphasis... while I do enjoy the PvE elements of those games, I DETEST those PvP game modes.  And to make matters worse, the developer of those games has gone to such extremes trying to balance weapons for use in PvP that it has ruined those same weapons efficacy in PvE.  I'm extremely glad that Warframe is focused more on the PvE aspects of the game; and when it comes to PvP, changes to weapons that DE makes for balance in the Conclave have zero impact on their use in PvE content (thank God for that!)

As for the "Ninjas Play Free" slogan, that simply refers to the fact that Warframe is a free-to-play game.  That's it.  You can download the game and play it without being required to spend a dime on it.  That's all it means, that's all the slogan implies--nothing more, nothing less, read nothing else into it.  By comparison, Bungie could not very well use the slogan "Guardians Play Free" because you have to buy the game to play it at all, and you have to buy the expansions as well if you want to play that added content.

Anyway, watch the DevStreams, or don't.  I've lead the proverbial horse to water, it's up to the horse to drink, not much else that can be done.  Be well.

I mentioned difficulty sliders for PvE alongside adjusted frame/weapon bonus status in order to match the selected cooperative difficulty.

(If/when MR frame/weapon requites get removed/changed.)

I never mentioned that the same AI tech wouldn't or couldn't be implemented in a PvP mode intended for competitive play instead.

(It's DE's game to decide how balanced they want it.)

Again, all I'm saying is that a majority of the forum player base is treating MR as if it has to be a competition won by skill, aka PvP.

If it's merely an optional test to get the extra status bonus, then by all means it should be skip-able when a difficulty slider can scale PvE levels at will. 

The PvP game modes were suggested to quell the competitive fanbase on any PvE changes.

As for the PvE focused fans, more PvP would presumably be entirely optional, as with the choice to play conclave. 

Edited May 17, 2019 by (NSW)MasterDarkwingz

[(PSN)Knightfyre]

15 hours ago, (NSW)MasterDarkwingz said:

Thank you for your reply. To be honest, the MR Test Skip button wasn't that important to me.

 

4 hours ago, (NSW)MasterDarkwingz said:

Of course, the E3 demo could always prove that maybe a little more laziness added into the MR test isn't as disagreeable as DE or other users might think.

Being that Warframe is not a new game that is still in development and not-as-yet made available to the public, but instead has an established and growing playerbase numbering in the millions, it seems to me that DE probably can garner better feedback and statistical data about the game's various features and changes to them from the people that play it -- players new to the game, as well as "veterans" that have played for years -- than it could from the limited number of people that would be exposed to an E3 demo over the short duration of that 3-day limited-access convention. 

Not that I'm saying DE shouldn't make a demo of some sort for E3... it just seems to me that E3 is primarily a developer showcase for marketing purposes, and not a particularly viable "focus group" by comparison.

 

But back to the Mastery Rank tests and their difficulty, which seems to be a recurring theme throughout your messages:  I understand that you're having difficulty with one, so I think that it's probably a good idea to focus on that and the reasons why, rather than getting "lost in the weeds" bringing up all these other topics and completely clouding the issue with a veritable deluge of unrelated topics or coming up with a panacea that effectively avoids the issue rather than solving it.

If there is a problem that is causing excessive difficulty in passing that test, let's try to figure out what it is.

I posted this link HERE in your last thread with suggestions to try to help you, I don't know if you saw it or not, but please take a look if you have not yet seen it.

I can personally relate to having had problems with Mastery Rank tests in the past--specifically, the MR8 test which required shooting at targets while wall running (this was back in the days before the parkour rework, before Bullet Jumping was added to the game).  Being a console player, I kept running into a problem where I would try to aim at a target while simultaneously running along a wall--which was the whole point of that MR test--but as I turned my angle to aim at a target, my warframe would suddenly and inexplicably leap away from the wall out into empty space, falling into the void and ultimately resulting in my failing that MR test, over and over. And over. Again.  It was EXTREMELY frustrating.  This was also before relays existed, before there was an option enabling you to practice a MR test as many times as you like before making the Qualifying attempt... no, back then, you got one shot, and if you failed you had no other option but to wait another 24 hours before you could try again, once.  Needless to say, the feature DE added to enable players to practice MR tests as many times as they want without restriction was a good and very welcome change!  Not only that, but the MR8 test has been changed since that time as well. 

So I encourage you to check out the link I provided above and check out the video I included, and see if anything there helps you with getting past that test... and if you're not able to pass it after trying what I've suggested, then we can further discuss what problems you are still running into. Best of luck!

 

[(NSW)MasterDarkwingz]

2 hours ago, (PS4)Knightfyre said:

 

Being that Warframe is not a new game that is still in development and not-as-yet made available to the public, but instead has an established and growing playerbase numbering in the millions, it seems to me that DE probably can garner better feedback and statistical data about the game's various features and changes to them from the people that play it -- players new to the game, as well as "veterans" that have played for years -- than it could from the limited number of people that would be exposed to an E3 demo over the short duration of that 3-day limited-access convention. 

Not that I'm saying DE shouldn't make a demo of some sort for E3... it just seems to me that E3 is primarily a developer showcase for marketing purposes, and not a particularly viable "focus group" by comparison.

 

To be honest, the moment you're on every Eshop, you're as publicly as available to the public as any other game.

The demos would likely have to be like a shorter play through, gauging how quickly players can get through the levels.

If it's too fast, then like the veterans say, the AI mechanics will need to be revamped to match (or slide) to the varying skill sets of the players in the squad.

If you gave a new player a full version of Warframe whose never seen it or any of the wikis before, it'd be overwhelmingly low on important tutorials.

They'd instantly tell you that they hate everything, while veterans might not think any change is needed at all.

Which is why I suggested from the start that there needs to be some new repeatable tutorials in place, rather than pushing players away to a Wikipedia for their every question or suggestion. Most gamers today don't read the manual, and expect to have information provided to them accordingly, through normal game play modes or tutorials.

Some people don't like to be told what to do, others prefer being showed how to do it. So provide those different opportunities in the new repeatable tutorials.

Every gamer struggles in different locations or with different things. Demos shorten time frame, but can provide an equal amount of experience as normal game play.

 

While E3 isn't a focus group type of gallery, it does let the developers get a glimpse into the type of future audience they're going to be catering for.

By listening to the current trends of competing games, DE can welcome more users into their fan base by providing more options to the "Ninjas Play Free" motto.

Show game, provide test money, show cash shop, show survey.

Listen to what's popular, what's not popular, and let that inspire you a bit to make improvements or changes. That's literally all you need to do at E3.

Otherwise, you could find yourself in the dust.

And I'm repeating that again, because everyone knows that 2019-2020 is going to drop some super advanced or more interesting games.

The most famous thing Warframe got out of E3 2018 was a popular Fortuna Youtube video and some Fortuna memes. That's not exactly very profitable in comparison to DE's Eshop hosts. The competition will be dropping so much content on so many games in their lineup that DE could be left in the dust of a content drought again.

And by could, I mean that there's always a possibility. We won't actually know until E3 officially reveals everything.

Edited May 18, 2019 by (NSW)MasterDarkwingz

[Calderaith]

On 2019-05-16 at 10:45 PM, AKTKWNG said:

I saw your previous post about the pay-to-skip MR test button from before, got that had already been locked down before I could post. It seems you're still somewhat caught up about that, but you've brought up some other points as well, so I'll address those first.

The new player experience issue is a well known one, and I think most players will agree that more tutorials at the beginning of the game are required. DE has already stated that a revamped new player experience is in progress.

The difficulty slider is also another thing that is widely agreed upon in the community, and is another thing that's on DE's list.

As for the AI thing, it seems like you have an overly idealistic view of what AI can accomplish. The goal of enemy AI in a game is not to be smart, or to be realistic, or to be unpredictable, the goal of AI in a game is to present a fun and interesting challenge for the player to overcome. The enemies in Mario games almost exclusive either walk to and fro, or run directly towards you with no strategy, and yet that is enough to provide an engaging experience to the player. If goombas were smarter, if they were able to read your movements and avoid your jumps, the game would become far worse to play, because you would no longer be able to reliably plan your jumps or use enemies as springs to reach further areas like you can now. Similarly, enemies in a horde shooter don't need to be overly clever. The enemy AI problems in Warframe really boil down to pathfinding and spawning logic, which really don't need any advanced AI tech to solve. And all this isn't even factoring the licensing fees in integrating nVidia proprietary technology into the game. Never over-engineer a solution to a simple problem.

The E3 comment honestly seemed completely out of the blue given the rest of your post. I assure that things like "difficulty sliders" and "pay-to-skip buttons" do not drive player hype in the slightest. Between the upcoming New War story quest and further updates on the Railjack game mode, rest assured that DE is not short on flashy show pieces for convention season.

And finally, on to the issue of MR tests. You seem to think that DE is prevented from changing the MR tests because of fear of player inertia, even while we're still seeing divided opinions on nightwave and melee 2.9, two highly disruptive changes to core gameplay mechanics. As anyone on the forums will tell you, DE will absolutely change things if they want to. The fact of the matter is, they will never let players pay to skip MR tests, because it would be irresponsible game design to do so. Despite the flaws of the system, MR tests serve as a checkpoint system to ensure that, over time, the player has learned fundamental skills for the game. Just like how if you can't pass a swimming certification test, you shouldn't be able to pay to gain access to the deep pool.

I agree with this fully. Also wanted to add, at MR 18 I got bored. Everything seemed too easy. Never even thought that the problem with that my own skill ceiling had gotten too high, I blamed the game for being too simple/easy. I stopped playing for 4-6 months and came back rusty only to get destroyed by content that I breezed through before until I got back into the swing of things and the normal flow. That being said, those MR tests did teach me basic skills that evolved into advanced skills for use in the game. If it wasn't for the MR tests I doubt that I could survive at all in those 60+ minute survivals. Introducing a skip test option in any shape or form whether it cost plat or even if its free is a bad idea. Too many people who refuse to read the instruction manual, so having a tutorial barrier in the way of using the best gear just works.

 

PS. Also I bet the economy would take a unpredictable turn.

Edited May 18, 2019 by Calderaith