Scott Says The Stamina Bar Wasn't Relevant...

[Xylia]

 

Only if you're a rusher.

 

I must say the irony of this concept is deliciously hilarious.

 

"oh noes, I can't skip content anymore without mods."

 

1. Mods, common mods most players already have

 

2. Yeeeah, you're not really playing the game to begin with, you're flying through the stuff you would be playing to get to the exit. That's OCD festish recursion, not playing.

 

You're basically saying Scott forced you to PLAY THE GAME and that annoys you.

 

right.

 

Newbies sometimes are forced to rush because they can't fight the 10 Napalms in their way; they have to rush past them. Then they run into the next room, with half of their shields left, and OH CRAP there's 10 more guys, gotta rush past them too!

 

Next room, 5 more guys... if I stop now, those 10 I just passed are gonna bend me over...

 

etc etc etc.

 

Newbies have a hard enough time these days trying to slog through Earth. And no, Rush, Marathon, etc does not drop in Newbie Areas any longer. They don't.

 

My Newbie Account Test doesn't have a single Marathon, Rush, or Quick Rest and I went all the way through my guide (which involves getting up to Europa and building Rhino).

[-Kittens-]

Semantics shall not avail you; rushing and sprinting are not inextricably linked, moreover most rushing takes place in mid air anyway.

 

You're also assuming beginning level content will stay the same when Scott just got done saying via livestream that it won't.

 

Myth busted.

[M3GAL0]

I have to say that even if they kept the Stamina nerf I still wouldn't have put any stamina/speed mods on most of my WFs. There are too many other mods that are far more valuable to me than those. Even in situations where I would need to have those things, like parkour loot rooms in the void, Nova and Volt can easily solve the issue of getting from point A to B without forcing me to sacrifice my usual builds. 

 

Plus sliding and Ether/Zorancoptering renders worrying about stamina during sprinting anyway.

 

I'm usually not put in a situation where I need to dodge a whole lot other than for the fun of it. 

 

 

'Warframe needs a stamina bar in order to add some reasonable limitations and challenge to the game': As Kittens said, that Myth is Busted. 

 

Sorry Scott. 

Edited September 19, 2013 by M3GAL0

[Smoke39]

While they are at it they should remove normal running speed since we are able to sprint 100% of the time.

 

People keep pointing out that a change like this would cause players to always sprint as if it's a bad thing, but what exactly is the problem with that?  It used to be the norm that players would always be running in shooters, only slowing down for careful movements on ledges and such.  Stamina only really started becoming common in shooters as they started shifting more toward cover-based gameplay, where positioning is a HUGE part of the game and rationing rapid repositioning makes sense.  Warframe isn't a cover shooter.  That's a big part of what makes it stand out in the current shooter market.  Sprinting didn't need to be limited in games like Quake and Unreal Tournament, and it doesn't need to be here.

 

Yeeeah, you're not really playing the game to begin with, you're flying through the stuff you would be playing to get to the exit. That's OCD festish recursion, not playing.

 

I wish you rusher haters would get over yourselves.  For a lot of people, going fast and maintaining momentum IS playing the game.  Telling these people that they're "not playing" is like telling someone playing a racing game that they're "not playing" because they're going too fast to enjoy the scenery, or that someone's "not playing" Mario if they don't jump on EVERY SINGLE GOOMBA.

 

Yeah, it's rude to abandon you team mates, and when I play with others I try to match the pace of my team, whether it be fast or slow, but trying to destroy an entire playstyle just to spite some inconsiderate players is just as selfish as those who leave their teammates behind.

 

The "right" way to play is whatever you find fun.  Live and let live.

[KriLL3]

Yeah WF is getting an awful lot of mods recently, and most of them just can't be equipped, we need redirection, focus, vitality, flow, steamline, stretch for most frames or a similar set of 6, and 4 abilities unless you want to re-polarize to ditch some ability, swapping any of those 6 mods for some new fancy mod that'd be fun to use isn't really viable, streamline is the only one I feel I could part with and not willingly.

 

More mod slots or moving the 4 abilities or really core stats like health, shields, energy away from the mod slots would free up some for players to experiment some with other setups, or splitting the mods in some fashion, perhaps give you one mod slot per thing you're affecting? like one for shields, do you want to increase your total shields, or increase their recharge rate?

Edited September 19, 2013 by KriLL3

[Sinisstar]

I really do not see how this is that much of an issue.  If they get rid of it, people will complain about it and if they keep it, people will complain nonetheless. 

 

I do understand that playing with Rhino or Frost in a regular mission is tedious (especially with the Thrak Helmet).  Most frames can out run you with ease and on low level alerts when they level has many tiles.  You are hard pressed to keep up, I get that, but you are also indestructible.  Take it or leave it.  The fragile frames are fast and the ones that are tanky are not, so they cannot utilize stamina to the extent of frames like Nova, Ash or Loki. 

 

I feel like people are being lazy and that is why they want the stamina bar gone.  If you just want instantaneous rewards, then why do you play?  This game is not hard and having to wait here or there for the bar to recharge is not a big deal.  I wonder if these individuals are not the same ones begging for hand outs in the live streams.  Maybe I am being contentious by saying such, but I am tired of the gaming communities deteriorating because players want instant gratification and hand outs.  It killed so many games like Diablo 3, which was D.O.A because of the real money auction house.  This game must carefully maintain that fine line between obtaining items in game and through their market.  The wait for awesome rewards and cool aesthetic add-ons is how DE makes their money.  They are an awesome company that gives their players incentives to play their game, which they genuinely care about.  Stop being lethargic and impatient. 

 

That being said, I do hate runners and removing the stamina bar would make actually promote running for all players.  That is not part of the game.  DE stated that they do not like players running to the end and ignoring the game play.  They said so on a live stream if I remember correctly, they said that was not how this game was intended to be played.  Runners are simply people who are being lazy and do not actually want to "trouble" themselves playing the game, just want instant gratification.  That being said, allow me to reiterate that removing the stamina bar will enable this undesirable approach of playing as a runner for all players.

 

The mobility is not limited.  Toggle your run and wait a second.  Learn how to better traverse the tiles.  Deal with it.

 

The stamina bar is not a problem.  Get over it.  If it is an issue, change your build. 

 

This game is in open beta and there are other issues that affect game play.  The stamina bar is part of the game. 

 

People are going to be arguing in a couple years :

1. That all enemies should be like runners and kill themselves, so that players don't have to waste time farming.

2. That there should be an autopilot mode in which you can have your warframe played by an omnipotent AI so you don't have to actually put effort into playing the game.

 

I am being facetious, but seriously guys, just enjoy the game and help DE by dealing with relevant issues to make this game last. 

Edited September 19, 2013 by HeroAscended

[Xylia]

@HeroAscended:

 

Did you ever think about the 3-letter word called, "FUN"?

 

Maybe it isn't FUN to be constantly running out of Stamina when you just want to run across a huge docking bay area in a Corpus Ship?

 

Maybe it isn't FUN to have to reduce to a slow crawl speed that Jogging is constantly?

 

Maybe it isn't FUN to fail a Phobos Sabotage because they gave you a ridiculous number of rooms between the Reactor and the Exit? Some of those were proven nigh-impossible BEFORE the Stamina Nerf, and that was WITH Dual Zoren. I'd hate to see them now...

 

Maybe it isn't FUN to have to slide run slide run slide run slide run all the time? Maybe my fingers get tired mashing the Ctrl key constantly?

 

Did you ever think about any of this?

 

I don't like the Stamina changes either, not because I'm a rusher (I'm really not; I explore each and every room in a Corpus ship, and I would do the same for Grineer missions, but Grineer are just not fun to fight), but because it interrupts smooth movement, and it feels like such a clunky band-aid fix when there are better things we could do to ENHANCE fun game-play, not hinder it.

[homiedudemanguy]

That is really funny because they do teach that in school. The first thing (almost) you learn is if a system isn't working for a game, just drop it, don't make new rules to fix it.

...but thats like every system. i dont know what kind of school you go to but we learn that if something is broken, dont trash it, thats just a waste of time and development. learn to fix it, make it better...kinda  like relationships. if you dump it, you just wasted so much time and effort to something that couldve been great. however there are exceptions

[Xylia]

...but thats like every system. i dont know what kind of school you go to but we learn that if something is broken, dont trash it, thats just a waste of time and development. learn to fix it, make it better...kinda  like relationships. if you dump it, you just wasted so much time and effort to something that couldve been great. however there are exceptions

 

Depends on how much development went into the said system in the first place, and how important it really is to the game itself. If it was a huge effort that took countless manhours to do, then yeah. You really really should try to salvage it.

 

But I hardly see Stamina as being that...

 

1). We can easily play without paying attention to it -- we've been doing so for, like, forever.

2). Players don't like their movement screwed with anyways, why anger the playerbase further?

3). It.....really doesn't add anything to the game whatsoever. Trying to force movement and decisions made around something we previously didn't care about is not going to end well.

 

Thus, removing it entirely (or at least taking Sprint off of it) sounds like the best solution. Players enjoy their smooth movement -- it is one of the HUGE selling points of this game. Run'n'Gun. So few games let you do it anywhere near as smoothly as Warframe, and certainly not many 3rd person shooters will allow it.

 

Warframe is such a unique game, and one of the things that people love most about it, is its smooth movement and controls (aside from some bugs that pop up now and then). Parkour + very detailed gunplay + melee combat + "magic" powers all in the same game?

 

Has that ever happened before?

 

Let's not ruin it by trying to force Stamina down everybody's throats. Stamina is that thing that hinders what people love most about Warframe.

[Wahooo]

 

Only if you're a rusher.

 

I must say the irony of this concept is deliciously hilarious.

 

"oh noes, I can't skip content anymore without mods."

 

1. Mods, common mods most players already have

 

2. Yeeeah, you're not really playing the game to begin with, you're flying through the stuff you would be playing to get to the exit. That's OCD festish recursion, not playing.

 

You're basically saying Scott forced you to PLAY THE GAME and that annoys you.

 

right.

No. 

1st my post was in response to the INITIAL nerf that was, thankfully quickly patched out within hours.  Probably because they realized that the extent of the nerf was to stupid proportions.  Thus my comment they didn't make the stamina bar relevant but a pure hindrance.  What I find fun about this game is the freedom of movement, and carrying momentum through the map by using speed and jumping and parkour moves.  I AM PLAYING the content just faster (sometimes).  The butt hurt about rushers... I don't know what to say exactly. 

As far as using the mods did you not actually read my post?  You just saw someone who didn't like the stamina nerf and got all full of rage and tell me a bunch of stuff about me that is about 180 degrees from the truth.

I said I have builds.  I had regular builds I would put on my frames before the loadouts we got with this same update (yay).  Depending on what mission I was doing I changed mods and I would sometimes have all three or none of the sprint/stamina mods.  With the initial nerf?  I had all three on and I felt crippled.  If I'm farming a boss for BP drops, that is what I want.  And I am going to do that as fast as I possibly can.  If is it going to take me 20 or 30 or ??? boss kills to gather those resources I don't think walking through the same tileset exploring every corner for for a green lit locker is Playing.  Its fine if you do that, and I will and I have first time in a tile set or if I feel like exploring.  I've spent over an hour in a T2 extermination by myself. 

 

So I changed my build.  I've explored and I've rushed.  I DO kill enemies, i've rushed a boss run just last night I was waiting at the exit for my team and still had highest kills and most damage and only missed one mod they got.  I AM playing the content, I AM shooting enemies and have no interest in enemies the just die on their own or boring AI, I would prefer better AI I would prefer rooms that were a challenge to run through.  Im playing all the content same as non-rushers but maybe just a little faster.

Generally I don't rush.  Generally I DO play the same pace as the group i've joined. 

 

The long and the short of it was that the extent of the nerf to stamina with U10 did not make the stamina bar relevant it made the freedom of movement and using speed and the unique parts of this game a damn chore and annoying.  It is a relevant issue and we gave our feedback to help DE, and maybe they will be a little more gentle with the nerf bat an realize small changes can make big differences.

[Gigatron-Prime]

Let it be clear that I am in no ways a rusher. I actually abhor those that do when I get matched with them. I honestly believe that the absence of the stamina bar will be for the betterment of the game.

[Smoke39]

...but thats like every system. i dont know what kind of school you go to but we learn that if something is broken, dont trash it, thats just a waste of time and development. learn to fix it, make it better...kinda  like relationships. if you dump it, you just wasted so much time and effort to something that couldve been great. however there are exceptions

 

 

You're misinterpreting "not working."  There's a difference between something that needs tweaking, and something that outright clashes with the design of a game.  Insisting on keeping a misfit feature just because time and effort has been spent on it is a sunk cost fallacy.  Trying to shoehorn it in will just cause more damage than the time wasted implementing it in the first place.

[Guest]

dodge rolling is still useless

[holyicon]

dodge rolling is still useless

 

Unless you have a latcher or leech stuck to you.

[RGENX]

Rush should make you walk that much faster. It would make the movement mod system more relevant if it Rush effected walking speed.

 

Ideally, sprint should not cost stamina, you have to slow down to shoot anyways. 

Edited September 19, 2013 by RGENX

[RGENX]

You're misinterpreting "not working."  There's a difference between something that needs tweaking, and something that outright clashes with the design of a game.  Insisting on keeping a misfit feature just because time and effort has been spent on it is a sunk cost fallacy.  Trying to shoehorn it in will just cause more damage than the time wasted implementing it in the first place.

 

Dido on "sunk cost fallacy" - just what I was going to say.

[ZeroPhobic]

wall running isn´t working, does that mean they should get rid of it? and what about armor? getting rid of them would be a big mistake, but reworking them would be perfect

I love people that don't think before they post. Did they need to alter the games rules to make these work or simply tweak the way in which they operate for them to work as intended? They had to make a whole new sysytem and then add a bunch of mods to make stamina "mean something". Again, if a system is not  working and has no real impact on the game, and you need to add a ton of new rules to make it work, just drop it from the game. If you don't believe me, call any college that teachs game design and ask any professor this same question. Instead of posting your nonsense here and making me deal with your ignorance.

[Psyclosarin]

I sort of like it in its current state.

I like having the cooldown there because it forces me to wall run a bit more to get the same kind of speed and I rarely need to stop moving sprinting.

But the original change.... oh my..that was painful.

I only ever take Rush maxed, never anything else to add mobility.

[litlit]

I haven't even once seen someone say "I dont like the stamina changes because I can't rush!!!"

 

Stop pretending like that's what people care about -- doing so is a strawman, plain and simple. And the changes to stamina don't even prevent rushing, so stop bringing it up like it matters.

 

It's also pathetic that people think being a "rusher" is somehow an inherently bad thing, but that's an entirely different conversation.

Edited September 19, 2013 by litlit

[Giltiamesh]

Semantics shall not avail you; rushing and sprinting are not inextricably linked, moreover most rushing takes place in mid air anyway.

 

You're also assuming beginning level content will stay the same when Scott just got done saying via livestream that it won't.

 

Myth busted.

Uh, hi, I'm not a Rusher. And even I realize how unbelievably stupid this is.

 

I've got Rush and Zorenskates, obviously, because "gotta go fast" and flying through the air is hilarious, but you won't find me tapping my feet impatiently at the end of the map.

 

But explain to me this: You join an online game. Dude immediately crouches. He's a stealth player. Do you immediately join his personal gameplay style? No? WELL. S#&$. Guess we're being intolerant of playstyles we don't enjoy now aren't we. Stealth is a garbage system in this game. Far worse than Rushing. And it's an INTENTIONAL part of the game. Yet I can't see you crouching down behind a box because Random Buddy #3 decided it's time for S#&$ty 3rd Person Stealth Mission.

 

"Stop playing the game differently from me bawww" is your own self important opinion. Keep it to yourself. Stamina is NEVER relevant. Melee isn't good enough, parrying is done once in the tutorial and promptly forgotten, and dodging? Please. I don't need to be forced to stop and smell the flowers. Every map is generically rehashed combination of rooms I HAVE SEEN BEFORE A THOUSAND TIMES. Oh look, it's Two Tiered Double Elevator Corpus Room. This is new and exciting. Better explore it again instead of heading towards the objective.

 

Your playstyle is not superior to everyone elses. Your fun is not more important than everyone elses. Get over yourself and play the game.

 

[Casbeli]

Just some personal wishes:

 

I would like to see stamina be relevant for running and fighting. Like in Update 10. ( U have to think about what u do with your stammina ) 

It should be possible to play meleestyle only. ( with the right mods)

 

To make that possible i would make 1 or maybe 2 Warframeslots for the Stammina Mods only. U can put the mods in which fit your needs.

 

I really like the game as it is but could a be little bit more difficult and not getting easier,

[SoanoS]

I find all thig fighting about stamina a bit baffling.

 

Sure, there are still some issues and ways it could be improved, but I find the stamina bar to be enough for most of my activities while I play.

No, I am not a turtler, and no, I am not a rusher either.

 

I like to take my time when progressing trough the levels and explore almost every nook and cranny for those rare materials and such, and enjoying the game. I dislike having to charge trough the map with a tunnel vision to the objective and exit. Some might not like my style but then again, it is my own.

 

I often sprint to an area where I have some hard cover so that I can concentrate on the task at hand, be it eliminating enemies, searching for loot or doing the objective, and then my stamina regens just fine. Hell, I don't even always run out of stamina. :P

 

I can think of a small improvement to the stamina system though. Stamina regeneration speed should be proportional to the remaining stamina, so that if you have only spent a little of it, it should recover more quickly, as opposed to exertion yourself to exhaustion, when it should take longer and speed up after it gets over certain point. That would be handy and would help us manage our stamina consumption more efficiently. Maybe even add a small delay to the start of stamina recovery, proportional to the stamina depleted. Tired frame would have to stand still for a second to start recovering it, while a frame that has got plenty of stamina left could begin to recover it almost instantly.

 

I think this would add some strategic element to the game. Yes, you could still run and zorencopter and slide and whatever but you would have to THINK how to spend this often completely overlooked resource.

[K_Shiro]

Sorry but as for stamina I feel it adds to realism - if you run without any rest you ought to have problems, especially if you do that running on a wall... upwards. No way you can't see that and actually I would do this:

Fast frames have less stamina while having reduced stamina cost for wallrun, jump etc.

Slow frames have more stamina but the acrobatic feats (anything more than running) cost more.

 

This would make fast and fragile frames be fast, acrobatic but get exhausted faster if running continously while tough frames wouldn't be that fast, have more stamina to pay for hurling their hideously huge and heavy bodies in acrobatic moves but would be able to keep up longer during a simple run.

All-in-all, heavy frames could run longer but slower while faster frames would be speedy but get tired sooner - we all arrive to the same place at the same time (if running) !

 

Sorry but I don't care if rushers have problems - I honestly hate rushers because most of them have a chip on their shoulders if someone actually wants to explore and get resources, xp, etc. Oh I can rush, I frequently rush, especially since some of my friends like to rush - I rush so I don't hinder them. But when one guy starts running like some poisoned rat and can't stop to actually care for his team... well, he can go to hell the void for all I care.

____________  _ _  ____________

 

[RGENX]

Just some personal wishes:

 

I would like to see stamina be relevant for running and fighting. Like in Update 10. ( U have to think about what u do with your stammina ) 

It should be possible to play meleestyle only. ( with the right mods)

 

To make that possible i would make 1 or maybe 2 Warframeslots for the Stammina Mods only. U can put the mods in which fit your needs.

 

I really like the game as it is but could a be little bit more difficult and not getting easier,

 

This is the problem with online games: DIFFICULTY

 

Not everyone is at the same skill level or looking for the same experience.

 

I'm a long time single player gamer and it is obvious to me that the lack of (Easy, Moderate, Hard, and Very Hard) settings that you find in most single player games leads to all sorts of gripping and the subsequent Nerf/Buff BS. 

 

Add a hard-mode and easy-mode and a normal mode to a game like this, could be selectable with a pull down menu next to the (online/ private/ect) pull down menu. Hard mode would have nerfed versions of the guns, mods, powers, stamina, and what not. Easy mode would undo everyones most hated nerfs and buff this or that. This would put an end to a lot of complaining/crying and end the nerf/buff wars.

Edited September 19, 2013 by RGENX

[Casbeli]

Oh sorry RGNEX, please dont missunderstand me.

I dont want to nerf or buff anything, that was not my intention.

The Stammina system was online with fresh new update 10 and got changed about all the posts against it. ( I liked it, but it could be good or i should say "more accepted"  with my suggestion with these 2 warframe stamminamod slots ).

 

The hard/easy-mode system will be difficult too. If u give the hardmode players more rewards ( for exemple ) the ones who couldnt play it will be disappointed. The ones who can do the hard mode wouldnt play it if there is no better reward.

( altough we already have nightmare and alert missions with harder objects )

 

It was just an idea to get something usefull with the stammina system.

Edited September 19, 2013 by Casbeli