Scott Says The Stamina Bar Wasn't Relevant...

[TheJagji]

The reason that stamina bars limit player's ability to continuously sprint is that it brings a level of realism. What is the point of differentiating between running and sprinting? What if they got rid of the idea of changing the rate at which you move and simple had one movement speed? Here is an interesting link that covers stamina and why it is used in video games.

 

http://www.giantbomb.com/stamina-bar/3015-3569/

 

I don't think the FPS stranded applys. I think the MMO one dose in this case. Its a way to pace the game, and stop people doing things over and over. Its like ammo for your physical moves.

[PHOBIE]

I just discovered i have Spider Solitaire installed with my Windows. It works without fault, there is no stamina bar, and most of the cards stack just fine. You cannot sell them by accident, they do not get lost, and I can order them by value.

[Nagisawa]

I would posit that the Stamina bar still isn't relevant.

[Critik]

I've got to agree, if they're going to keep Stamina it needs to be more meaningful.

NO, MEANINGFUL DOES NOT MEAN MORE ANNOYING. If it gets any more annoying than it is now, you're screwing up. It needs to be a BOON to players. Not a hindrance. Imagine if, say, Blocking would block ALL damage that hit you from the front, except for a select few attacks meant to break it. You'd sure as hell have to strategically use Stamina then, wouldn't you? It would even be a boon, in that case. "Here is a cool and USEFUL thing I don't need to do, but that helps me."

That kind of usage-- where it opens up options, rather than slowing us down-- is where Stamina should be. And it's not.

[Psroij]

gell, on 19 Sept 2013 - 1:41 PM, said:

Most of the people here either don't understand, or don't care, that stamina is here for the game overall, and not really a form of anti-rushing. Scott (or was it Steve) said many months ago that if players are rushing through, it's DE's fault for not giving them enough incentive to stick around, and also DE's fault for not making enemies able to keep up with or stop the player. So DE is still going to work on that, and hopefully soon (new mission types seem to address that in part).

Sadly, if that is DE's stance on the matter they are definitely going about a fix the wrong way. The main reason people rush is because the system punishes them if they do not. Everyone here has had the experience where they try to fight it out, clear a room, and get some breathing space, only to have a continual horde of enemies pop in in greater and greater numbers.

 

In Warframe taking your time in any mission type besides Exterminate is a guaranteed way to lose. A player will be overwhelmed and run out of ammo. The only way to get even a moment's respite from the interminable waves is to actually rush two or three rooms ahead so all the spawned enemies are left behind milling around. Even then, rush too many rooms ahead and the player might be faced with a room with enough enemies to cause massive frame rate drop and an exit far enough way they do not have the stamina to reach, because the game decided to pop in every enemy that was passed until that point. Or the game arbitrarily decides to punish the player for doing too good by suddenly ramping the enemies from "Difficult, but steady stream" to "Hope you have an Ark, because the flood has been unleashed."

 

Making stamina even more of a handicap is a cheap way to add challenge in a game where the player can never truly clear a room or protect their back.

 

Until DE fixes how enemies spawn to encourage taking time and exploring the levels they should not be trying to limit a players ability to rush with cheap stamina adjustments or otherwise, because right now stamina's only use is for making running and wall running more clunky.

[kaboomonme]

The issue isn't that we shouldn't have a stamina bar. We should. The issue is that we should have a stamina bar that we have a reason to use. Scott limiting the usage of stamina to the point where people would actually run out of it for periods of time without stamina mods would have been a perfectly reasonable change if not for the fact that stamina is currently only useful for sprinting.

If DE were to successfully make dodge-rolling, blocking, parkour maneuvers and melee combat potent and viable components of gameplay, requiring stamina mods would be excellent. It would force players to choose between ability-optimized Warframes, defensively-optimized Warframes, or utility-optimized Warframes. That's not even including all the in-between moderation and mix builds that would accompany maximum efficiency in a given stat. Mod loadout diversity strikes me as something that this game could always use more of for the time being.

Simply put, we should have limited stamina. We should need stamina mods. We should have a reason to want larger quantities of more quickly regenerating stamina outside of better sprint capabilities. Give us diminishing bonuses between when our stamina gauges are full and empty. Stuff like that. The stamina bar should stay. It just needs to be made a more interesting component of gameplay.

 

This man has the right idea.

Dodging and movement can and should play a more important role in a players' gameplay style, it has so much potential and I cannot wait for it to have a second look at.

 

 

No. Not if it comes at the cost of the fluidity and freedom of movement that makes Warframe feel great to play.

Trying not to name names here, but there are some other games out there that made stamina viable, essential and fun at the same time without limiting mobility (to a certain extent, enhancing it and making the game feel more reactive and lively to play).

 

Warframe gives us the option to do fancy dodge-roll shootouts, gorgeous air-dash sword maneuvers, but who uses them really?

 

Standing still and holding down Mouse1 and taking breaks to press 4 is widely considered to be the most effective strategy, and anyone not doing so is considered n00b and/or slow or being inefficient. And they would be right, sadly.

I really wish Warframe does not evolve into a game as such. Fast-paced is one thing, clearing out rooms with a press of a button... is this really what you want out of the game? What happened to the ninja-esque gameplay with a mix of exciting melee combat, and finding the right maneuvers and techniques to clear out the room in the shortest amount of time? All that defeated with one button?

I wish stamina can fix this, I really do. Not like how it was done before, but I really hope it does in the near future.

Edited September 20, 2013 by kaboomonme

[litlit]

Trying not to name names here, but there are some other games out there that made stamina viable, essential and fun at the same time without limiting mobility (to a certain extent, enhancing it and making the game feel more reactive and lively to play).

 

Warframe gives us the option to do fancy dodge-roll shootouts, gorgeous air-dash sword maneuvers, but who uses them really?

 

Standing still and holding down Mouse1 and taking breaks to press 4 is widely considered to be the most effective strategy, and anyone not doing so is considered n00b and/or slow or being inefficient. And they would be right, sadly.

 

Yeah, you're right, and that's exactly my point: mixing parkour and fancy slide attacks into your combat was already a sub-optimal strategy in any combat situation. The only reason to do it was because it's fun. The changes to stamina took the fun away, so now there's even less reason to do it. Since it's more difficult to move quickly, there's even more of an incentive to Zorencopter past everything or press 4 and continue on at a plodding pace.

 

This is why I don't understand why Scott thinks this change makes stamina significant. It still doesn't matter. Stamina doesn't stop me from from pressing 4 to kill everything, it doesn't stop me from using Vauban, Nyx, or Rhino to CC everything so I can press mouse 1 until everything dies.

 

We've always been able to do that, and we've done it a lot, because it's the most efficient way to grind. That part of the game absolutely has not changed in the slightest. The only thing that changed is, I don't have the ability to move as freely as I once did.

Edited September 20, 2013 by litlit

[ThePresident777]

"Nerf rushers" screamers need it. So they act like little turtles and be the slow ninjas.

 

The game already has a way to deal with rushers but DE just doesn't use it very much: multiple locks on one door.

[ThePresident777]

Stamina mechanic should be a Nightmare Mode.

[whitejackale]

Yeah we should just get rid of the energy meter too since it hinders us.

 

In all seriousness, it's a game. There are resources that we have to keep track of, and that limit us when we run out of them. The green bar is important not only because it's a resource you have to balance throughout your gameplay experience, but because there's already a large portion of people who just want to sprint and slide through an entire mission. As far as I know, the game is supposed to be at least somewhat in the combat genre.

Don't forget that they need to get rid of the ammo system as well. This way we can endlessly shoot without having to worry about ammo, we can endlessly cast abilities without worrying about energy, and endlessly sprint without having to run at normal run speed.

 

Oh yeah, I forgot to say that they should also get rid of weapon reloads and weapon switching because they hinder us as well.

[litlit]

Blah blah blah slippery slope fallacy.

 

A week ago, the stamina changes hadn't even happened yet and the game was just fine -- better, in fact. We still had ammo and energy. No one wanted to get rid of energy -- quite the opposite, actually, as there is still an ongoing conversation about the problem of ability spam.

[DiabolusUrsus]

On the contrary, handicapping people and then adding "band-aid" mods is not what I would call a viable solution.

Your implication that I am suggesting stamina mods as something that bring a player back up to full capacity is misguided. I'm all for adjusting stamina so that it doesn't hinder sprinting. I could care less about whether or not people can sprint for extended durations of time. I'm against simply sweeping stamina off the table because it's currently considered an inconvenience.

Instead, stamina mods would give players increased access to otherwise potent but limited combat options in the form of an improved blocking system, a combat-focused parkour system (separate from platforming parkour) and anything else the devs can think up related to stamina use. You know, a system that actually makes walljump melee attacks viable, makes it reasonably worth it to a player to shoot while wallruning, gives players a reason to block, that sort of stuff. New content that contributes to varied and interesting gameplay as a direct result of a larger assortment of gameplay styles. You still get your freedom of movement and fluid game flow. I have no issue with that, and I support it fully. But getting rid of stamina entirely without bothering to try improving it is a mistake.

On the subject of obsolete mods like Warm Coat/Other Random resistance mods. So you're suggesting that we just cut those out as well? There's no point in simply buffing the mods to the point where they are worth considering. Just like Pressure Point when it only boosted damage by 42% at max, right? Might as well just remove that mod since it's not useful to anyone. People complain about how Warframe devolves into the same thing over and over, day after day, an endless grind. So let's cut down on variety in mods. Let's cut down on variety in playstyles. Let's refuse to consider turning currently useless aspects of the game into something worth focusing on. Heck, let's just take out every mod that doesn't boost Warframe shields, maximum energy, power efficiency, power range and power strength. And we don't need any weapon mods that don't add some sort of damage. That's sure to make the game last in the long run. Totally a viable solution.

[Psyclosarin]

Actually, you know what I've noticed REALLY slowed players down?

 

Adding Navs to drop from crates/storage containers. People actually stop and check those now more frequently.

 

^ This! All of this!

[Gigatron-Prime]

^ This! All of this!

I never noticed but he's right. That is what we need.

[PHOBIE]

There was one good post in here, explaining why slowing down is not an option in an unlimited spawn game. Awesome post, this guy got it:

Slowing down, tactical approach and stealh mechanics won't ever work right in a game with unlimited spawn, but limited ressources. Ammo, Energy, Health, all of that. There are enough games out there to prove that point.

So before commenting on something like stamina, we have to understand conflicting game mechanics. I will give examples:

 

1) Unlimited Spawn versus Stealth. I explained this.

2) Unlimited energy loss (Disruptor) versus limited energy/energy pickup mechanics.

3) Melee and Stamina. Acrobatics and Stamina.

4) Mods not functioning under certain conditions: Circumstantial Mods, and Nightmare Mode.

 

Last example shows best how punitive mechanics work: You equip certain mods, like shields, and you will have no benefit whatsoever in the mission, provided the mission turns out to be no shield/no energy.  In case you have energy siphon and rage mod equipped but you cannot counter the energy loss, those mods are lost slots as well. As you cannot know which mode you will face, players are practically asked to quit and start over for better starting conditions unless they want to torture themselves needlessly. This is a punitive mechanic. 3 mods simply lost all or a big part of their worth for you. Also, there (currently) are no better rewards in case you stay. You lose time and possibly some revives.

 

So there are conflicting mechanics, and punitive mechanics we have in the game. This is not bad as such, if it helps determining the direction of a game, and those mechanics are worked on and deconflicted. However, if they are accepted as a feature in a game, and not seen as what they are, they are bound to create endless frustration and no amount of prayer and tweaking will fix that. It is a conflict. Softening the conflict will not stop it to be a conflict. It will never work right.

 

So, as we have seen in the currect discussion, more and quicker stamina is needed and wanted for both acrobatics and for melee. Now, melee is seldomly used at the moment, apart by some diehard players who really want to melee, which is fine; and specific missions like the survival event ones, where meleeing was so much fun and also served a purpose.

 

The reasoning behind the changes in stamina the developers have given is this: We want our players to actively monitor their stamina bar, so they need to make the right decision on what moves to do next, so mindless spamming is less of an issue.

 

Now, while melee is not the optimal choice for most situations currently, and while we do not have an overpowering melee system as of yet in the game, this is a "nerf" to melee, and thus is a conflicting and punitive mechanic for players. From a Warframe standpoint, all Tenno have suddenly aged considerably, to the degree they can't swing their scythe for long without stopping and taking a breather. Also, prolonged running is punished. A Tenno can only run for a little while now, because he seemingly is a chainsmoking couch potato who will puke on his shoes when forced to do a 70-yards run. Currently, any farmer will do better with his scythe. Any athlete can run for longer than a Tenno. Even I can. This is not God Tier. This is a geriatric event.

 

Players do not care about monitoring a ressource in the upper right corner that they know won't suffice anyhow. They will find a workaround instead. They will just try to move like before, and when Stamine runs out, they will just live with that, and use their Stamina for running over meleeing.

Skillful players might still be able to monitor that ressource in the heat of battle, in addtion to their skills, health, energy, ammo HUDs. However, pulling the trigger costs no stamina and is sure to provide a better result, so why care?

 

Too long, did not read?

We need our developers to trust and shape the Game Engine to be able to encompass God Tier characters, because this is what makes Warframe stand out from other titles. We need them to see comflicting and punitive mechanics in the game and root them out. We need mistakes and correct choices to happen on a higher level.

[Giltiamesh]

Yeah we should just get rid of the energy meter too since it hinders us.

 

In all seriousness, it's a game. There are resources that we have to keep track of, and that limit us when we run out of them. The green bar is important not only because it's a resource you have to balance throughout your gameplay experience, but because there's already a large portion of people who just want to sprint and slide through an entire mission. As far as I know, the game is supposed to be at least somewhat in the combat genre.

Except energy is used for powers. Powers that deal damage, clear rooms, protect us, and offer other various utilities towards Space Ninja Death Squad.

 

Stamina serves one purpose and only one purpose. Forcing us to stop every couple of seconds to smell the roses, or slide constantly which is both taxing on the tendons depending on whether or not you've bothered to rebind your slide key, and really silly looking.

 

I have never in my life watched the Kenyan Olympians, during their hundred meter run, SLIDE. That is not a thing that any runner does. Ever. It's a completely pointless gesture.

 

Now, what I like about sliding is FLYING KICK and ducking under obstacles to save time. As a space ninja, why would I waltz AROUND an obstacle when I can go right over/under it. The few sections of the map that allow sliding under are fantastic. Sliding is a fun ability.

 

It should not have to be spammed for the sole purpose of energy conservation during a run. It just makes the whole thing feel really awkward. Stamina should be removed entirely, or should be relegated to a melee system that's either fun or useful. As it stands, stamina serves the express purpose of hindering mobility. In a ninja game. Doesn't make sense.

 

I understand how some people may want to take a leisurely stroll through a giant Space Potato, butchering the inbred subhumans occupying it for fun and plastids, and how having a Rusher just barrel through the level at breakneck speeds, twirling through the air on his silly axecopter, can be annoying. I get that. But understand this, there will ALWAYS be people more interested in reaching the objective than collecting the drops. This will not stop Rushers. It will only slow them down by a minute or two at BEST. They will still rush, they will still Zorenskate, and they will still initiate the "get to extraction" timer. Whether you like it or not. Stamina, whether it exists or doesn't exist, has nothing to do with the desire to run really fast.

 

As it stands, stamina's only purpose is to break the flow of gameplay.

 

If you want Rushers to become less common, what's needed is INCENTIVES to dawdle.

Edited September 20, 2013 by Giltiamesh

[Wahooo]

As it stands, stamina's only purpose is to break the flow of gameplay.

 

If you want Rushers to become less common, what's needed is INCENTIVES to dawdle.

Yes.

 

Game design that punishes something people have developed from their experience in playing the game is bad.  Encouraging people to do something different is a much better idea. 

[Gigatron-Prime]

I'm telling you people, let's get a petition going or something. If the community by large really wants a change like this, I have no doubt DE will adhere to democracy.

[Xylia]

I'm telling you people, let's get a petition going or something. If the community by large really wants a change like this, I have no doubt DE will adhere to democracy.

 

They already repealed most of the nerf based upon our feedback and they've been put through the wringer over a couple accidental mistakes and miscommunications.

 

Instead of grilling them over something small like the Stamina system (that works ALMOST like it did pre-u10), why don't we cut them a break and let them relax for a bit, mmm?

 

They're only human too, and I bet they could use a break by now after the emotional week we've had.

[Gigatron-Prime]

You haven't really read the thread then have you...

[Xylia]

You haven't really read the thread then have you...

 

I've read at least 90% of it.

 

They repealed most of the nerf, give them a break for a little. Especially after them going so far to do an apology.

[Gigatron-Prime]

I've read at least 90% of it.

 

They repealed most of the nerf, give them a break for a little. Especially after them going so far to do an apology.

I thought so. You missed the 10% that was important.

[whitejackale]

I'm telling you people, let's get a petition going or something. If the community by large really wants a change like this, I have no doubt DE will adhere to democracy.

Following what a vocal minority screams at the top of its lungs is not democracy.

 

The people who did not like the change were a lot more inclined to express their opinion than those that liked it or did not care about it.  I can not say what the whole warframe community thought about the changes, but I can definitely say that me and 20+ of my clan mates did not have a problem with the change.

[whitejackale]

Stamina serves one purpose and only one purpose. Forcing us to stop every couple of seconds to smell the roses, or slide constantly which is both taxing on the tendons depending on whether or not you've bothered to rebind your slide key, and really silly looking.

 

To say that you were forced to completely stop every time that your stamina ran out is a great exaggeration. I personally did not have a problem with running out of stamina since I was busy aiming and shooting at enemies.

 

On a sidenote, a lot of people have used the argument of "we need to move as quickly as possible in order to run get past dozens of empty rooms in order to finish the mission" is flawed because the problem is not stamina and movement speed. The problem is that this is a combat based game in which we are forced to run through dozens of empty rooms instead of being involved in combat, which should always be the main focus of a combat based game.

[NalkorRN]

To say that you were forced to completely stop every time that your stamina ran out is a great exaggeration. I personally did not have a problem with running out of stamina since I was busy aiming and shooting at enemies.

 

On a sidenote, a lot of people have used the argument of "we need to move as quickly as possible in order to run get past dozens of empty rooms in order to finish the mission" is flawed because the problem is not stamina and movement speed. The problem is that this is a combat based game in which we are forced to run through dozens of empty rooms instead of being involved in combat, which should always be the main focus of a combat based game.

Then we have to run through the dozens of enemy-filled rooms because we have limited resources, the AI spawns infinitely unless the room is in lock-down.