Addressing the Elephant in the room

[(XBOX)XGN DrFeelGood]

On 2019-05-17 at 5:40 PM, PsychicWarlock said:

Someone had to do it and sucks that it has to be me. This is going to be a long thread so bear with me. DE fanboys read completely before going all keyboard warrior on my "back".

So, I started playing warframe in 2015(since vauban prime access) and played for few months(until a few weeks after release of Plains of eidolon release) as I had to take a break from gaming to complete my engineering. I recently started playing warframe again and was excited as I thought I was gonna have fun. I was MR 17 or 18 when I left and I never felt boring for one second. But recently I was unable to enjoy warframe like I used to before. And the reasons are very plain and simple. It’s not what it used to be. This doesn’t feel like warframe. What are the reasons? Oh boy, they’re too many that I can’t even count them on my fingers.

 

1.     THE GRIND

Warframe was always a grindy game no doubt but recently there has been an excessive increase in grind. From warframe parts now droping out of quest to the ridiculous weapon requirements.  

>Paraceis

If you don’t know Vauban prime is the rarest frame as all his part drops are rare. Making his value 400 ducats (highest of any frame), and the pareceis has a build requirement of 1000 ducats. That means you spend more than 5 prime frames(not Vauban prime) worth of farming on a single weapon. I DO NOT understand this logic. If you’re implying the weapon is special the sure I can understand spending some ducats (100 or maybe 150) on it but 1000? That’s not fair.

 

>Prime weapons and prime warframes

Back then prime weapons and frames used to cost 1 orokin cell but now the magic number is 15 without any explaination. It’s still a rare resource, I thought you guys wouldn’t do something like this after the HEMA drama but nah, boy was I wrong.

 

>Open world Syndicates

Why are there multiple syndicates in a single “place”. In plains of eidolon it’s understandable as Quill and Konzu do not want to appear together because of what happened between Quill and konzu’s wife. But when Fortuna was released I was shocked to see not 1 not 2 but 3 SYNDICATES. I do not understand this logic. And each syndicates rank up differently. Why are there no sigils for open world syndicates? The bounties get boring and makes a person lose interest in the game. They’re same repetitive and for the lack of better word “unfun” or not fun to play.

 

>Warframes

You guys always talk about how people ruin the fun by going to hydron/berehyneia and not actually rank it up like how it’s supposed to. Do you know how much pain in the butt it is to rank up a frame even with boosters? The XP required on the frames should be greatly reduced. If you think it’s an overestimation maybe you guys should try ranking up a frame from rank 0 to 30 without booster in your next stream and we’ll see. You’re free to use any node just don’t do it with equinox. Rank it up solo and you’ll finally realize what I’m talking about.

>Events

Thermia fractures and ghoul purge. As soon as I see a message for ghoul purge I just ALT+F4. That’s a very very very bad event. It’s ok to have less quality and fun events than throw these events on the face of community.

 

AS I SAID I KNOW WARFRAME IS A GRINDY GAME AND NEEDS AS MUCH PLAYERS IN GAME AS THEY CAN BUT DEVS NEED TO REALIZE THAT WE HAVE PERSONAL LIFE TOO AND THE DAILY LIMIT CAP IS NOT FOR THE BENEFIT OF PLAYERS. IF ANYTHING IT’S A BURDEN.

 

2.     THE EVENT BOSS (WOLF)

I’m paraphrasing here as I don’t remember the exact words “Itzal will  be nerfed as it’s too fast(her 1) and this means we are forcing players to choose a certain archwing over the others” Make an event boss which require certain weapons and certain frame to kill him. I get it you wanted to give something to the vets who were asking for difficult enemies(end game) but your vision of difficult is wrong. The entire game is based on warframes and their abilities but this boss chose to give zero crap about them. Like why? THIS IS NOT WARFRAME. Making him immune to status effect so his armor can only be removed by pet or a certain mod(shattering impact) and even after the armor is removed his flesh is armoed flesh, because logic.

The idea of a difficult boss in warframe or any game should make players fear for their (in-game)lives. Wolf simply stands in a place and swings his hammer for a couple of seconds and then with the speed of light move towards a  target.

What he should be able to do was be able to inflict high damage(ranged; not melee), not stand in one place and swing his hammer, walk normally and be susceptible to damage from players. That’s a better boss than most of the warframe bosses second only to HAMMER “TYL REGOR” TIME.

 

3.     FALSE HOPE & FALSE PROMISES

I’d simply suggest you to stop making false promises like

“we talked and we’ll make sure no prime ak weapon will require two prime weapons”

Hey guys check out AKLex prime it requires 2 lex primes and a link.

“We want to reduce grind”

Continues to increase grind

 

 

Now to a more critical subject, FALSE HOPE.

STOP IT! Whenever rebbeca ask steve something the community has been asking for years, steve will just shake his head and say “we’ll see” making people believe that they’re gonna do something great, but nahhhh it always like that. Always a FALSE HOPE. If you do not want to do something just say it outright we won’t ask you again.

 

4.     RESOURCES

“Casual players are ruining the game” continues to spend resources on something that people never asked for and won’t bother about it instead of fixing bugs people have been reporting for years. Cough..cough.. Nyx, Vauban, mag, etc. If you think about it the open world shouldn’t really be the next big thing, It’s a different environment and same enemies with name tag changed and new resources to make people grind for hours. The resources can be spent on a much better thing like quest, bug fixes, etc. It’s easier to blame someone else but it’s equally difficult to find your flaws and correct them; casuals have no control over the game. The control in its entirety belongs to YOU.

5.     FEEDBACK / THE WE LISTEN TO YOU BOLD FACED LIE

People have reported some issues from years now and yet in devstreams you guys never talk about it. And you guys keep asking “What should we do”. We reply DO X and in the next stream there is not a single mention of said X but then the same damn “what should we do”. FOR THE LOVE OF GOD FIX WUKONG, NYX, VAUBAN,ETC.

6.     SCALING

There’s no denying the fact that the enemy scaling in the warframe is messed up to a point that it will require atleast a year to fix it if that’s possible. So “what should we do?”. We do not want to see a warframe die by a single elbow whip so please add shield gates that will fix the scaling problem to an extent. What we got was hildryn. And that too it’s not shield gate. Please implement shield gates like nullifier bubbles on all frames.

 

7.     Freedom

It may not be an appropriate thing to say but warframe is not kindergarten, and you should not interfere with freedom of speech. Many times In warframe chat or on forums, I feel my freedom of speech has been violated. I just don’t understand why can’t people act like adults in a 18+ game as it says in EULA.

 

 

CONCLUSIONI tried to play warframe but it’s too much of a fun killer these days and I’m really not happy with the direction warframe is drifting towards. My intention was not to hurt you or call you out, I’m simply venting out the reality that’s been going on. Instead of acting out when confronted about it(bully-tweeting about a youtuber; not cool) you guys should think and reflect back on how we can improve. I know It's not constructive criticism just criticism as I think you guys wont even read it anyway and everything I've wrote would probably go straight to the bin. It's just my honest opinion. If the new updates bring even more useless grind then I’ll probably not play warframe as much and would most like never invest in warframe again.

Thank you for reading this.

Have a good day

You are right about these things. We are supposed to see the imagination put to full use, instead of playing it safe with grind feasts and remodeling concepts.Many business models worked in the marketplace when answering a problem that customers/consumers have. When businesses get complacent there is a incentive to move towards socialism. Socialism has failed in many departments in history and it does not benefit the service market either. In that sense, taking risks to use the imagination to put out products / content is better than to try pleasing both sides. It is a miserable experience for any person to play on both sides than to separate the tears from the wheat.

Edited May 19, 2019 by (XB1)XGN DrFeelGood

[Vitalis_Inamorta]

11 minutes ago, Vox_Preliator said:

If he's using a Strawman, you're moving goalposts, a lot.

False.  We're talking about total investment.  Put up your evidence or stop talking.

He's trying to convert to things he's already done or has the resources to do fairly quickly in order to downsize the impact.  That is the definition of goalpost moving.

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

5 minutes ago, Vitalis_Inamorta said:

False.  We're talking about total investment.  Put up your evidence or stop talking.

He's trying to convert to things he's already done or has the resources to do fairly quickly in order to downsize the impact.  That is the definition of goalpost moving.

You're funny. 

[taiiat]

2 hours ago, Vitalis_Inamorta said:

From both design and play standpoints, it's pretty dumb.  You'll deal more damage by NOT completely stripping his armor than by completely stripping it.

so like... literally every Enemy that has Ferrite Armor?
pls.

variety is good, it helps give value to every Damage Type.
i'm just not a fan of breaking the rules and inventing new Health Types out of ones that already existed with different rules. the two Armor Types shouldn't be used as Health Types, that makes them inconsistent.

2 hours ago, Vitalis_Inamorta said:

No we don't.  Chroma can get sort of close with a full power strength build that no sane person would actually play.  No other frame in and of itself has millions of EHP

Chroma isn't particularly durable. there's way better options than that. basically every Warframe that has a Damage Reduction Ability, infact is capable of higher EHP than Chroma.

i'll just example my favorite personal tank, even though there's others that are also very durable and some even more durable.
Trinity can get 75% + 75% + Adaptation + 600 Armor + Ancient Healer + 850 Health (2/3 Umbral Mods). and that's just the easy to get stuff.
which is... 0.25 * 0.25 * 0.5 (i'm going to be nice and set Adaptation to 50%) * 0.3279 * 0.1 (Ancient Healter) == 0.0010246875
1 - 0.0010246875 == 99.8975% DR

so for the Effective Health Multiplier...
1 / 0.0010246875 == 975.9072x
975.9072 * 850 == 829,521.12

didn't even bother accounting for Shields here, which would have easily added another 30-40%.
and remember that i only half counted Adaptation because ofcourse not every hit you take is fully stacked.

• i still prefer the Shield route because automatically regenning 2400+/sec means that i basically can just stand there vs most Enemies and only refresh my EHP periodically. but there's the Health route for you, and it's still fairly modest since it's just one Player and not using all tools available, just a handful.
• also, did you seriously just say that a Chroma wouldn't be stacking Power Strength? that's the core stat for Chroma. after Elemental Ward and Vex Armor got nerfed, Power Strength even replaces using Armor Mods because they're stronger. basically every Chroma should be using atleast like +150% Power Strength(that's 250% in the Arsenal if people prefer it that way). there's just no reason not to, ever.

whether Enemies should do more Damage or not, i'm not giving input on here.

[Vitalis_Inamorta]

1 minute ago, taiiat said:

so like... literally every Enemy that has Ferrite Armor?
pls.

Ehh, you're not wrong.  The difference with them is, while corrosive may be giving you ~+50% while they have some armor left, viral will be giving you +75% when they don't anymore.... assuming they're grineer clones.  The damage weakness changes for other enemy types.

Wolf... still weak to the same damage type, but less weak.  After removing his armor....

4 minutes ago, taiiat said:

Chroma isn't particularly durable. there's way better options than that. basically every Warframe that has a Damage Reduction Ability, infact is capable of higher EHP than Chroma.

Wat.  Uh.  I have to disagree.  Ice Chroma can hit up to 99.96% DR last I calculated.  A Trinity with Link and Blessing up and Adaptation stacked would only hit up to 99.85% or so if I'm calculating right, and only if the enemies were all dealing pure single types of damage.  Any sort of mixed damage would drop that down closer to 97%.  Granted, Mirage in the dark and Mesa vs ranged can hit 99.9, against the optimal single-type-damage, but that's still both lower and not against everything.

You said millions.  Your Trinity example is slightly over a million, in a situation that doesn't match the majority of the game, with two abilities and four mods minimum.  Your example can't hit 2 million without outside buffs, certain spectres, or very particular arcanes.

[taiiat]

41 minutes ago, Vitalis_Inamorta said:

Wat.  Uh.  I have to disagree.  Ice Chroma can hit up to 99.96% DR last I calculated. 

You said millions.  Your Trinity example is slightly over a million, in a situation that doesn't match the majority of the game, with two abilities and four mods minimum.  Your example can't hit 2 million without outside buffs, certain spectres, or very particular arcanes.

Elemental Ward and Vex Armor got nerfed. Ice Ward is basically trash now (Fire Ward now reigns supreme), and Vex Armor is ~93% with crazy Power Strength. adding Ice Ward onto that is like +0.4% or something insignificant.

my example was just simply presenting something that's pretty easy to use to offer that enters the right territory. generally we're not expecting Players to be Solo which means EHP can easily be 10x that.
i basically just picked a Warframe with a Damage Reduction Ability(ies) at random.

Edited May 19, 2019 by taiiat

[Vitalis_Inamorta]

You did pick a warframe with damage reduction abilities though.  Anyone else is only going to get to max 99%, and that's assuming they have 2x rank 3 Arcane Guardian procced up and Adaptation stacked to max against single-type damage, which is rather unrealistic.  More likely they might have one of those things and a Vitality or Umbral Vitality mod, and will be facing mostly mixed damage, so that's going to be closer to 60% reduction and what, maybe 700-1k health?  ~2k EHP.

[Warhydra]

On ‎2019‎-‎05‎-‎18 at 12:56 AM, Darth_Predator said:

Unless you don't like to mine with one hand and swing your sword with the other all the time. Ghouls just tend to be spawning very often for me. And that also means Vay doesn't shut up at all. Not to mention ghouls themselves are annoying. I want my fish/gems dammit! I don't want to be under attack constantly or asking a friend to sit there with me shooting stupid bastards for hours. Like theirs regular spawns outside of the event are ok-ish.

yea I agree with that, ghouls spawn a bit too much. I usually head out to PoE with Ivara for that reason. 

On ‎2019‎-‎05‎-‎18 at 5:37 AM, PsychicWarlock said:

Warhydra take nyx, mag, vauban, etc and play MOT. Get too close to an enemy so he will hit you with his elbow and see if your frame survives. 

So three of the squishiest warframes should be able to face tank high level enemies?

 

18 hours ago, Cephalycion said:

Of course we have the select few warframes with millions of eHP. But for the majority of frames you either have to rely on abilities like shatter shield, iron skin to even survive past lvl 100.

Nothing wrong with that really, high level enemies should be deadly without stealth, damage mitigation or heal over time. Otherwise why bother having any support, CC or defensive frames in the game?

On ‎2019‎-‎05‎-‎18 at 12:56 AM, Darth_Predator said:

So you want to make those millions eHP frames even more mandatory/no-brain choice? I'm tired of hearing "y u no play inaros?" every time when I go to kill Profit-Taker or sometimes even arbitrations. So I'd oppose "moar dmg" solution. For more damage I'd suggest a modifier "Inaros/chroma/rhino takes 400% more damage from all sources and arcane grace/barrier/guardian doesn't work on him". 

Nerf the tank frames at the same time then, I don't mind 🙂

On a more serious note, we could use some sort of effective tank killing enemies/attacks. (Maybe if their damage scales with player eHP?) 

Edited May 20, 2019 by Warhydra

[Cephalycion]

1 hour ago, Warhydra said:

Nothing wrong with that really, high level enemies should be deadly without stealth, damage mitigation or heal over time. Otherwise why bother having any support, CC or defensive frames in the game?

I would be fine if the squishier frames were 3 shot, or even 2 shot. But 1 stray bullet being able to down you I think is abit much. This makes some frames completely useless past a certain level. E.g Ember.

I would definitely appreciate some form of eHP gating that makes you invulnerable for a short time upon triggering the gate or something of the sort. Like for example if you receive more than 25% of your eHP as damage within 1 second you are granted invulnerability for 2 seconds.

Edited May 20, 2019 by Cephalycion

[Jiminez_Burial]

7 hours ago, Vitalis_Inamorta said:

 just the 1,000 ducats represents hours of focused farming, minimum.

I think you're farming things incorrectly then.  At min it would take less than an hour. 

1000/100=10.  10*5=50. 

Target ducats/rare prime ducat price = number of relics.  Number of relics * reasonable relic 'crack' time = reasonable time to get target ducats.

This is if you're running Survival which is where the 5 minute 'crack' time comes from so it could be even quicker if you're running Captures/Rescues/Sabotages etc.  If you're going to state something as definitive then make sure it's accurate, otherwise append you're statement with conditions.

[PsychicWarlock]

Guzzmantt, you are making fun of yourself. Why are you comparing two resources which have no comparision or balance between them?

Lets apply your logic in the real world shall we?

 

I broke my phone, in my country it costs 100$ to fix it but in china it costs 10$ to fix it. So you are telling me to spend 100s of $ on a flight, go to china, fix my phone for 10$ and take a flight back to my country costing me 100s of $ for the return flight again. Why? If any person would do this even a nutless monkey would call him an idiot.

[Vitalis_Inamorta]

40 minutes ago, Jiminez_Burial said:

This is if you're running Survival which is where the 5 minute 'crack' time comes from so it could be even quicker if you're running Captures/Rescues/Sabotages etc.  If you're going to state something as definitive then make sure it's accurate, otherwise append you're statement with conditions.

First off, that was farming his example Loki Prime Chassis.  This is taking the time it takes to get a specific relic, on average, into account.  That particular relic is fastest to get by running certain void captures, at 5% chance per run.

Second, even if we're going for whatever relics we can, you have to account for the time to farm it in addition to the time to crack it.  Most sources of relics don't guarantee relics, so you're probably closer to 10 minutes to both get a relic and crack it.  Some activities it may be as much as 15 minutes.

1000 ducats in 50 minutes from survival?  Your math is way off.  That's 10 relic cracks.  You're assuming 100 ducat value for every single crack.  That's very unrealistic.

More likely an average of forty ducats per relic, perhaps.  If we assume a fairly fast five minutes per relic farmed and five per cracked, that's just north of four hours.

[PsychicWarlock]

Jiminez, implying that we get rare part in every drop because warframe. That's enough dumb talk for the day and its just 10 am here.

 

 

Edited May 20, 2019 by PsychicWarlock
Spell

[Jiminez_Burial]

1 hour ago, Vitalis_Inamorta said:

First off, that was farming his example Loki Prime Chassis.

Ok, I missed that context.  Sorry

1 hour ago, Vitalis_Inamorta said:

Second, even if we're going for whatever relics we can, you have to account for the time to farm it in addition to the time to crack it. 

So people don't use syndicate packs?

1 hour ago, Vitalis_Inamorta said:

1000 ducats in 50 minutes from survival?  Your math is way off.  That's 10 relic cracks.  You're assuming 100 ducat value for every single crack. 

Yes, because I was making the argument on the back of your comment about it taking hours at minimum.

[Vitalis_Inamorta]

6 minutes ago, Jiminez_Burial said:

So people don't use syndicate packs?

Yes, because I was making the argument on the back of your comment about it taking hours at minimum.

Well, they do use syndicate packs, but they don't use them for all of their relics.  If you want to factor in syndicate packs, you need to realize that unless you're a fairly long-played player, you aren't going to be able to afford even one pack per day, because your daily standing cap won't allow it.

Even if your standing cap is maxed out that's not quite two packs a day?  6 relics is almost a quarter of the ducats you'd need, maybe.  So then we have something like five to twenty days of standing in order to shorten a likely more than 4 hour grind down to being more like two hours?  This is still hours and days we're talking about here, so yes, hours on average, even with a focused farm and a fairly high MR to begin with.

Edit:  Maxed MR would allow just over two packs a day.  Still time you need to factor in, as otherwise you're assuming that the player already has syndicate standing to use to purchase relics, which is pretty much saying you did some of the farm ahead of time, rather than that it isn't long.

Edited May 20, 2019 by Vitalis_Inamorta

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

11 hours ago, PsychicWarlock said:

Guzzmantt, you are making fun of yourself. Why are you comparing two resources which have no comparision or balance between them?

Lets apply your logic in the real world shall we?

 

I broke my phone, in my country it costs 100$ to fix it but in china it costs 10$ to fix it. So you are telling me to spend 100s of $ on a flight, go to china, fix my phone for 10$ and take a flight back to my country costing me 100s of $ for the return flight again. Why? If any person would do this even a nutless monkey would call him an idiot.

You could have @'d me. 

Ducats and plat do have something in common, prime parts. 

Instead of converting high value parts to ducats, convert them into plat, then use the plat to buy prime junk. At the most unfavorable rate of exchange, you're looking at 134 plat. I've demonstrated that on PC you could probably do it for a lot less by buying low value sets. 

I have shown that you could realistically earn more than 1000 ducats by converting just one or two items to plat first. Doing it by converting parts directly to ducats requires a lot more. 

So your example is one of a person who wants to spend less money. I've shown you that you could fix it yourself for pennies, if you just used your head. Instead you choose to claim that I'm suggesting that you spend more than you would have originally spent? Does that make sense to you? This isn't rocket science. 

10 hours ago, Vitalis_Inamorta said:

First off, that was farming his example Loki Prime Chassis.  This is taking the time it takes to get a specific relic, on average, into account.  That particular relic is fastest to get by running certain void captures, at 5% chance per run.

Ahem... One of the multiple examples? Loki is currently a topical point of interest. The fact that multiple examples of things that could be converted were given, and the list was not complete for obvious reasons should have been abundantly clear to anyone reading it. The take away for anyone with the ability to reason, should have been "anything of reasonably high value that can be sold earn a minimum of 134 plat would be more than enough."

There's no reason why you would need to farm that one specific item when anything else that you could substitute in its place would be just as good. 

9 hours ago, Jiminez_Burial said:

Yes, because I was making the argument on the back of your comment about it taking hours at minimum.

Dude, the hoops that people are trying to jump through to justify their claims on this thread are pretty insane. The fact that they are trying to make you justify your factual statements by tossing into the all sorts of conditions says everything you need to know. 

If someone is intentionally trying to make it harder on themselves, they will always manage to find a way to do so, no matter how ridiculous. 

[Chaemyerelis]

I personally haven't crafted paracesis because I could get some cool baro items with 1000 ducats. 

[(PSN)CodyXSavageX]

I thought Paracesis was crazy as well 500 ducats would have been fine but I had a lot of relics to use and spend so the ducats were expendable it's a matter of resources I suppose

[(PSN)dangerhunter4587]

About the 1000 ducats being too much, it's really not.

I remember completing the quest for the Paracesis and going to check how many ducats i had and realized I only had 60 ductas, so I decided to dedicate a few hours to farming fissure survivals and defenses.

Lo and behold I was done within 2 hours of starting my farm. While I did get lucky and get some rarer parts, a majority of my ducats came from 15 ducat sells.

Don't say something takes too long if you haven't even bothered trying it

[Ultimatesoup]

Did a good chunk of this thread get deleted without any reason?

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

21 minutes ago, Ultimatesoup said:

Did a good chunk of this thread get deleted without any reason?

No. 

A bad chunk of the thread got removed, and that's the reason. 

[PsychicWarlock]

Yes, because someone kept comparing two resources that are not balanced and with the game's current state can never be equated to one another.

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

8 hours ago, PsychicWarlock said:

Yes, because someone kept comparing two resources that are not balanced and with the game's current state can never be equated to one another.

You're not as funny as the other person. But still funny. 

[Vitalis_Inamorta]

Still lying about people who enrage you being funny, I see.

[Maka.Bones]

🤔