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This can't be how you intended the game to be played?


No1NParticular31
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So I just started a last Thursday and part of the draw to me was all the different warframes and their unique abilities. The problem is that in solo missions (which for some reason even when I do public public missions I rarely get anyone else in there with me) energy is more rare than the "rare" crafting components. I have actually completed several solo missions where I killed every mob and opened every locker and barrel and got ZERO energy orbs. This is supposed to be a "caster frame" (Mag) but how can I cast if I never get the energy needed? Add to that, now I find that as I level up my MR the amount of energy you start with each mission is dropping too. I just can't use abilities now unless ABSOLUTELY necessary. Not knowing if or when I will ever get more energy, I now make sure I conserve it just in case the Saturn Six fugitives spawn. It might get better in the "end game" but getting there this way is just going to be sad. Can you imagine if someone started playing WoW, made a mage, and was only able to use their staff to fight with until level 80? There wouldn't be any mages.

I have read a bunch of posts about this issue and they all say to make your abilities more "efficient", but no amount of efficiency is going to make up for getting zero orbs in a mission. Not to mention as a new player I don't even have access to the places or parts to get any great level of efficiency yet. So the reality is, to me, as a new player, abilities are not really usable, at least not more than once or twice per mission which kind of feels like it defeats the whole purpose.

I will say that when I find myself in a survival/defense mission with 3 other people there is plenty of energy and I finally get to use abilities. It's just when I am the only one in the mission they get really really hard to come by. My guess is that with 4 people in these types of missions, the mob count goes way up and not everyone is consuming them, so the number of drops of energy available goes up (that or someone else's passive is causing it).

So my suggestion is to scale the drop rate UP, especially when only one person is in the mission, or at least start people out with full bars of energy.

On a related note, bow (Paris) ammo is quite rare as well. It practically rains rifle and pistol ammo. I have noticed that Kunai seem to use pistol ammo, could bows be made to use rifle ammo in a similar fashion, or at least be upped just a little bit?

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You do get a way to always have energy later on in the questline, but unfortunately, early game has very poor energy economy.

I recommend running Equilibrium, Streamline, and Energy Siphon if you have them in the meantime, until later in the star chart you get something called "Zenurik."  Do not Google it if you don't wish to be spoiled.

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32 minutes ago, No1NParticular31 said:

This is supposed to be a "caster frame" (Mag) but how can I cast if I never get the energy needed?

Energy Siphon, and Energy Restore gear for now. If you were using a frame with high HP (not Mag) you can also use Rage or Hunter Adrenaline.

32 minutes ago, No1NParticular31 said:

Add to that, now I find that as I level up my MR the amount of energy you start with each mission is dropping too

Unused mod capacity is converted into energy on spawn.

32 minutes ago, No1NParticular31 said:

On a related note, bow (Paris) ammo is quite rare as well. It practically rains rifle and pistol ammo. I have noticed that Kunai seem to use pistol ammo, could bows be made to use rifle ammo in a similar fashion, or at least be upped just a little bit?

There are Ammo mutation mods to help with that, as well as Ammo Restore gear. The Carrier sentinel also helps with ammo. But, once you mod up the bow so that it does more damage the ammo will be less noticeable as well. All secondaries (except for explosive secondaries) use secondary ammo.

 

32 minutes ago, No1NParticular31 said:

I will say that when I find myself in a survival/defense mission with 3 other people there is plenty of energy and I finally get to use abilities. It's just when I am the only one in the mission they get really really hard to come by. My guess is that with 4 people in these types of missions, the mob count goes way up and not everyone is consuming them, so the number of drops of energy available goes up (that or someone else's passive is causing it).

Energy Siphon is quite common. That gives the whole team energy regen over time, and there are other, spoilery things that give you access to more energy later on.

Edited by AXCrusnik
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Early game is flat out a different game than mid/late game.

Back in the day, powers were rare and had been about saving up for special occasions. Everyone clamoring to get Energy Siphon aura whenever it was up for the chance to use powers more. Early game still grasps to this ideology with its cold withered fingers.

The second you get some team gear items, some primed and rare mods, progress in the story line, get some frames with energy regen abilities, Energy becomes bottomless and you can spam powers more than using guns.

As for ammo useage. Bows are basically snipers. Low rate of fire, high alpha damage, low ammo. A bunch of ways to get more ammo.

Ammo_Case_19.6.3.png small/med/large Squad ammo restores TeamAmmoRestore.pngArrowMutationModU145.pngVigilanteSuppliesMod.png

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The energy economy's been broken since forever, and they just keep coming up with new ways to avoid fixing the problem.

Either you have no energy, or you have infinite energy.  There is no real grey area here.

When you have no energy, the game is a relatively boring slog of a third-person shooter that has nifty parkour.

When you have infinite energy, the game is an absolute cakewalk and you're constantly getting annoyed about all the stuff they keep trying to trip you up with on your way to the shiny carrot they offer at the end of the mission.

This has been a problem for years.

And will continue being a problem, until it gets to the point where not fixing it is going to take more effort than fixing it.  Thus is human nature.

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1 hour ago, (PS4)BenHeisennberg said:

You do get a way to always have energy later on in the questline, but unfortunately, early game has very poor energy economy.

I recommend running Equilibrium, Streamline, and Energy Siphon if you have them in the meantime, until later in the star chart you get something called "Zenurik."  Do not Google it if you don't wish to be spoiled.

I am running Equilibrium and Streamline, but the only Aura I have is Rejuvenation which I just got it this week from Nightwave store. Maybe the store will have Energy Siphon next week. I also run with a maxed out Fast Deflection, which between that and the Aura, means I very rarely get to pick up life orbs for Equilibrium to do much good. I am running that build because I don't have a choice other than face tanking everything. Although to be fair it does work quite well at this level. LOL Mag, the melee tank. I guess I could take that stuff off and get hit more and hope I don't die trying to get energy from life orbs but that almost sounds silly.

1 hour ago, AXCrusnik said:

~snip~

 

53 minutes ago, Firetempest said:

~snip~

Good tips from both of you. I didn't know about the ammo conversion stuff, will definitely look into those. Hopefully they are obtainable Pre-Jupiter. Thanks.

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Dear new player. The game is meant to be difficult, and finding solutions to manage the health pool, the energy pool, and the ammo pool, is something to aim for, with reading and learning (and farming).

The more you play, the easier the game become, so don't you worry to much.

Also, playing solo is very difficult. When playing as a group you might encounter players with energy regen auras, or spells that grant the squad energy, and so on. Having a full party also make more ennemies spawn, so more loot (and more energy orbs).

Of course, you might not always meet people on your way, but that's simply because some missions aren't popular. Meanwhile, some other mission are always flooded.

While playing solo, Restore pad (energy, life, ammo) and other tools (specters, cipher..) are really life saving. Always craft some and have them equipped in your Gear Wheel !

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If you play with [Equilibrium], there is a good mod [Synth Deconstruct] from Fortuna (quite cheap) that make every enemies hit by your sentinel, but killed by any source, have 25% of dropping a health orb.

Combine that with another mod [Synth Fiber]  which allows your sentinel to pick up every health orb even when your (or your sentinel) health bar is full, granting a guaranteed Equilibrium energy gain.

 

That's one of the cheapest, earliest combo of mods I can think of, that generate a decent amount of both health and energy. But it cost three mods... and farming Fortuna isnt easy too.

Edited by dwqrf
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4 hours ago, dwqrf said:

Dear new player. The game is meant to be difficult, and finding solutions to manage the health pool, the energy pool, and the ammo pool, is something to aim for, with reading and learning (and farming).

The more you play, the easier the game become, so don't you worry to much.

I played Everquest for 10 years, Wow for a few, BDO, and a myriad of other MMO games. So difficult I can appreciate (although Wow is not difficult at all). I also understand resource management, health, mana, food, arrows, etc. It's difficult to manage a resource you can't even get. The problem is giving players 4 carrots (abilities) then saying "sorry, you can't use them yet, wait until you get higher level".  It's like why give them to us then? I am sorry but when I can kill 130+ mobs and get ZERO energy orbs, something is broken. Granted that isn't every mission, but the fact that it happens at all is a problem. I could understand if I was zooming past them all and not killing them, but killing everything I see and getting 0 - 2 total per mission is not usable. Like I said I don't even use my abilities anymore except on Saturn Six Refuges, and I can't recall EVER finishing a mission with full energy despite not using any abilities. That's starting at 90-100 with a cap of 225. It is nice to know this gets better later on.

Food for thought: I have read/heard lots of complaints about players getting to be high level and still not knowing how to play their toon properly. Maybe it's because their toon is impossible to play properly until you actually get to be high level due to not being able to use abilities enough? Allowing abilities to be used more at lower levels would help players learn how and when to use them more effectively and create good habits from the start, instead of bad habits that have to be broken/changed later.

Again, I am NOT asking for "easy mode" or "unlimited energy". I do think abilities should be usable more than 2 or 3 times in an 8 hour play session.

4 hours ago, dwqrf said:

If you play with [Equilibrium], there is a good mod [Synth Deconstruct] from Fortuna (quite cheap) that make every enemies hit by your sentinel, but killed by any source, have 25% of dropping a health orb.

Combine that with another mod [Synth Fiber]  which allows your sentinel to pick up every health orb even when your (or your sentinel) health bar is full, granting a guaranteed Equilibrium energy gain.

 

That's one of the cheapest, earliest combo of mods I can think of, that generate a decent amount of both health and energy. But it cost three mods... and farming Fortuna isnt easy too.

Very useful info. Thanks. I'll have to compare that to the "Health Return" + "Energy Siphon" combo. Unfortunately I don't have the DPS to get those just yet.

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In my travels through the starchart,I was a solo player dedicated to just that. Around Ceres is when I discovered that I needed a team for certain types,like defense or Interceptions.

I began wondering how to increase my overall usage of my kit (guns,melee + abilities) and came here. Well,it didn't help me at all since the gist was "wait for a alert to grab the mod" or "go farm this or that to obtain those".

I still have my "flawed" equilibrium,which doesn't do squat compared to it's Endo hungry fixed version. So,I recommend working at what you can get,restore pad via syndicates. At most you can have 3 syndicates at a time,but you'll have 3 after your head in return. I don't think you have to rank far in them to reach the blueprints. If you're willing to join a clan,find one with a MR requirement that has a good bit of research done,you can buy health,ammo & energy pads there that require a bit of resources to make. Most are a 1 minute build time,so that's a bonus.

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If this is how you feel about the game already you should probably just quit before you get in to deep and waste your time. At the very least if you don't like it within a month or so cut it out of your gaming time to save yourself the trouble. the difficulty spike for new players only get worse as it goes so it would be better for you honestly. If your determined to keep it up though just ask as many questions as possible in region chat and work your way through every story quest before deciding if you'll stay for the grind in the long run based off of how you feel. Good luck possible tenno...

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I was thinking one day that what if abilities were on timers? no more energy just different timers when u could use something again. It would fix some spamming issues as well but i feel most would not like this. It's a system that works in most games but what we have now is kind of a mess tbh

was just thinking an example Volt cooldown times could be:

1. 3 sec

2. 8 sec

3. 15 sec

4. 45 sec

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3 minutes ago, Furesis said:

I was thinking one day that what if abilities were on timers? no more energy just different timers when u could use something again. It would fix some spamming issues as well but i feel most would not like this. It's a system that works in most games but what we have now is kind of a mess tbh

 was just thinking an example Volt cooldown times could be:

1. 3 sec

2. 8 sec

3. 15 sec

4. 45 sec

They tried cool downs once and decided to remove them so this ain't gonna happen. I forget the update that they added and removed them but it did happen at one point.

Edit: Also it would require a rework of how energy and all the systems connected to it work and take up atleast a whole mainline update to do a portion of that work. Overall it's better to just keep things as they are and let people have their fun!

Edited by (XB1)Zweimander
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13 minutes ago, (XB1)Zweimander said:

They tried cool downs once and decided to remove them so this ain't gonna happen. I forget the update that they added and removed them but it did happen at one point.

Edit: Also it would require a rework of how energy and all the systems connected to it work and take up atleast a whole mainline update to do a portion of that work. Overall it's better to just keep things as they are and let people have their fun!

Why did they remove it? Or what was the reasoning in the first place that they tried it and secondly for the removal. I'd like to hear that part. Was it because fans didn't like it or it was too slow or just they didn't have time for something so drastic? 

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Things is, the game get easier the more you play. The Energy issue will be one of the issue you encounter, and finding and choosing the solution for it depends of the frame or build you play. Some frame don't use spells at all, played only for their stats; some spells don't have energy cost, and some warframe don't even have a energy pool.

Energy Siphon is great indeed, as it gives your whole squad 0.6 energy/second, which may seems underwhelming, but can stack and will be here for you for the whole run.

But yeah, moslty, as a lot of people suggested, Zenurik is THE WAY to remove any energy issue ; but it takes some time to get there (the main quest line, the right choice, and then, plenty of farming). I won't go into the detail, as it contain a lot of Spoilers. But just for the stats, Zenurik can grant 5 energy/second.

But you already owns tools to negate the issue. The most common one is the Large Energy Restore pad, grants 100 energy per tick, over 4 tick, which is A LOT. As you can place few in the same time, you can fill any 850 energy pool within seconds. And you use a lot of them at high level.

-

About the Energy Orb spawn, you may find it rare, but that's because Orbs in general can be comboed with some other mods and arcanes, which would make them REALLY powerfull if they were more common. And I can't point out enough that if you play with a full squad, there is way more enemies and so, way more loot, more orbs, generally way enough.

And some spells can force spawn Health and Energy Orbs. Some other spell can grant the whole squad some energy, or some energy regen.

But yeah, relying ONLY on Energy Orbs natural drops for your spell casting is certainly never enough.

-

The combo of mods Equilibrium and the two Synth mods is a really guaranteed source of energy, if you own any sentinel weapon (the more spray, the better) and if your sentinel lives long enough... But you could also invest into a DethCube sentinel and its Simaris Augment, which would drop a Energy Orb every 10 assist it does (combined with the above mentionned mods, will make a lot of energy - costing you only a single mod on your warframe, and three on the sentinel.

 

There is also a mod called Rage (or it's variant, Hunter Adrenaline) - which convert the warframe Health lost into energy.

Edited by dwqrf
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There have been SO many suggestions for updates and changes and reworks to the energy/ability system, from tiny easy-to-implement ones to complete overhauls, and I don't recall DE even commenting about the discussions on any Devstreams or Primetimes.

For some bizarre reason it seems they must want people to use Arcanes/Mods/Focus/Consumables to make the energy system even remotely manageable.
Even on Primetimes, their own staff are seen furiously chugging Energy Restore consumables just so they can even cast abilities.
It's not like they don't record statistics like power usage and mod usage and stuff, and it's not like they haven't been able to see patterns and correlations in the data.

Ideally, in order for Warframe to be fun and playable, it shouldn't REQUIRE anything.  Mods and stuff should just be a difficulty-modifier, not a gameplay-enabler.

If I have to put Hunter's Adrenaline and Rejuvenation and Lifestrike on EVERY WARFRAME AND MELEE WEAPON, just to have CONSISTENT power usage, is that supposed to be considered normal?
I essentially have to use Mods to avoid the entire energy system.  Just so I can use powers somewhat frequently.
And that setup only works when you're either tanky enough to take the hits, or the enemies aren't one-shotting you anyways.  In which case you're stuck with Energy Restores.
Grinding resources, to Craft Energy Restores, just so that you can use abilities.

And then they flood the place with Nullifiers and Arcane Disruptors anyway.

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It's all about modding an energy loop with the frame and if that frame is energy hungry then you should be looking at syndicate weapons with energy procs and the rivens for them to help keep the loop running...I use a Prisma Obex and Supra Vadal with a Riven and their syndicate mods equipped while fighting with my energy vampires and I don't have to give up a lot survivability or speed using rage and all the work around mods and arcanes to keep them going if those are not available to you.

Running with two weapons from the syndicates can easily supply an Equinox or a Ember the entire match...You can also loop energy with Nekros..so you never run out of power..so much so that you'll have to use your abilities just to get your health back up by draining said energy pool to do so...

Zenurick is popular for a reason...Most would say max it out accordingly ASAP...

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4 hours ago, Furesis said:

Why did they remove it? Or what was the reasoning in the first place that they tried it and secondly for the removal. I'd like to hear that part. Was it because fans didn't like it or it was too slow or just they didn't have time for something so drastic? 

From what I could find DE couldn't find a balance with cooldown resulting in a generic TPS and it slowed the game pace down. The most I remember of it is that it happened during my time playing on PC, people complained and it was one of the occasions where my friends and I dropped the game for a while.

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5 hours ago, Furesis said:

Why did they remove it? Or what was the reasoning in the first place that they tried it and secondly for the removal. I'd like to hear that part. Was it because fans didn't like it or it was too slow or just they didn't have time for something so drastic? 

I certainly wouldn't like it myself.  Would make a fun, fast, fluid game more slow and clunky.

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15 hours ago, dwqrf said:

Also, playing solo is very difficult. When playing as a group you might encounter players with energy regen auras, or spells that grant the squad energy, and so on. Having a full party also make more ennemies spawn, so more loot (and more energy orbs).

I feel like this comment was bypassed in favour of some of the flashy answers, when really it's probably one of the most important. 

The last time I saw this sort of complaint I took a brand new Chroma (don't remember if prime or not) and went to Lith to test the fact that my memory of events was very different. I remember that after getting taxon energy, ammo and credits started flowing in. Sorry that I can't remember the exact mods I had on him but they probably weren't all that great at the time. 

I had no problem using my abilities I was gleefully burning the heck out of stuff, and making a dragon float over the objective. As long as I kept my head, I didn't really run out of juice, and there were plenty of orbs laying around. But like dwqrf said, we all know that public runs mean more drop chances, and solo is a totally different story. 

So try and team up, Tenno. 

10 hours ago, No1NParticular31 said:

Food for thought: I have read/heard lots of complaints about players getting to be high level and still not knowing how to play their toon properly. Maybe it's because their toon is impossible to play properly until you actually get to be high level due to not being able to use abilities enough? Allowing abilities to be used more at lower levels would help players learn how and when to use them more effectively and create good habits from the start, instead of bad habits that have to be broken/changed later.

LOL, it's not even remotely that.

Getting to a high MR doesn't actually require you to play the game. You need to level up a bunch of gear, but you can easily do that without using the gear. I'm pretty sure that if DE were to check the number of kills on mastered weapons a very sizable fraction would have a very low number of kills, some would even have zero.

Some people probably just get help from friends to rush through the starchart and then to powerlevel a bunch of gear. They then just do the Mastery Tests, which most people agree have very little to do with the game as a whole. Make no mistake, MR only really tells you how many tests someone has passed. It does not tell you if the person is a good player. 

 

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17 hours ago, No1NParticular31 said:

The problem is that in solo missions (which for some reason even when I do public public missions I rarely get anyone else in there with me) energy is more rare than the "rare" crafting components.

I remember feeling the exact same way back when I first started. Don't worry, energy will never be a problem for you pretty soon if you stick with it. Energy Siphon was so amazing to me when I first got it and then I eventually found other ways to restore energy even faster. I will gladly give you an Energy Siphon if you want it. Just let me know. Like I said, there are much better ways to get energy as you progress, but I don't want to spoil anything for you.

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9 hours ago, Furesis said:

Why did they remove it? 

Because they found that everyone just stops until their cooldowns refresh before they move to the next area. Many other games ran into this same exact issue. It makes for anything but fluid gameplay. Ask any PSO veteran. 

New players are just going to have energy issues until you unlock recovery abilities and get a mod base that can support energy regen and/or high efficiency spam builds. 

Until you get what you need, I'd highly suggest simply using restores. They do work and aren't terribly expensive to craft. Also, join a clan. Seriously. It can potentially open up a variety of opportunities for progression and clannies are usually pleased to help out new folks, since it helps them as well.  

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12 hours ago, (XB1)Cubic Clem said:

Wait until he realizes that later in the game enemies are outright immune to his abilities, rendering them even more useless..

(◔‿◔)

ROFL, I can't wait. 😃

11 hours ago, (XB1)Zweimander said:

If this is how you feel about the game already you should probably just quit before you get in to deep and waste your time. At the very least if you don't like it within a month or so cut it out of your gaming time to save yourself the trouble. the difficulty spike for new players only get worse as it goes so it would be better for you honestly. If your determined to keep it up though just ask as many questions as possible in region chat and work your way through every story quest before deciding if you'll stay for the grind in the long run based off of how you feel. Good luck possible tenno...

I didn't say I didn't like the game. What I am saying is that before I chose a frame a really looked into their abilities because I thought that was what was important and chose based on that, now I find I haven't really been able to use them. So I have built Mag for mostly survival (Rejuv Aura for health, Fast Deflection for Shields) and now I mostly just melee with her using lots of spin attacks and looking like a lawn mower. This just does not seem like how this frame was designed to be used. It is fun, just counter intuitive. At least now I know it does get better later, I'll just have to relearn this frame when it does.

2 hours ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

I feel like this comment was bypassed in favour of some of the flashy answers, when really it's probably one of the most important. 

The last time I saw this sort of complaint I took a brand new Chroma (don't remember if prime or not) and went to Lith to test the fact that my memory of events was very different. I remember that after getting taxon energy, ammo and credits started flowing in. Sorry that I can't remember the exact mods I had on him but they probably weren't all that great at the time.

So try and team up, Tenno. 

I didn't respond to that post because I sort of already addressed it when I said "even when I do public public missions I rarely get anyone else in there with me ". I think the issue for now is that I am not to Jupiter yet. (I am stuck on the Interception mission just before the Junction which no one ever seems to do) and I think the majority of people playing are well past that point in what they do on a daily basis. I do frequently end up in groups in the "Boss" missions and sometimes in the Defense missions. For the most part I am soloing because there isn't anyone else doing the missions I am doing. I usually only force solo when I am doing the "Kill X number of mobs with Y type damage" Nightwing challenges so I have better control over kill count. Of course quest missions are also forced to be solo as are Junction bosses.

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