Should DE follow bungie's footsteps on balancing for endgame?

[844448]

With recent news about bungie nerfing many things that considered OP for endgame, bringing them to be in line with other gears and how many people complain that there's no endgame or challenging content, I want to ask you guys if you agree to nerfing things in warframe as balancing to make the endgame challenging?

Some things to consider, if you guys agree to nerf OP things in warframe, these are some examples of things that will be gone for good

- No more one-shotting eidolon or other bosses with chroma

- No more AoE map nuking in ESO or other modes with saryn or other map nuking frames

So, to reach optimum damage output, you will need support frames to buff the team or debuff enemies

What do you think? Should we suggest DE to follow bungie in this?

[krc473]

Just now, 844448 said:

Should we suggest DE to follow bungie in this?

No. DE really shouldn't do this.

 

In a game where the reward you want has a very low chance, you want to get stuff done as quickly as possible. It is likely going to take many runs, and slowing these down because 'why not' is a terrible idea. 

 

How about DE gives us actual endgame content, then we worry about what is hard/not hard? I have never considered Eidolons or ESO endgame content. 

[844448]

1 minute ago, krc473 said:

No. DE really shouldn't do this.

 

In a game where the reward you want has a very low chance, you want to get stuff done as quickly as possible. It is likely going to take many runs, and slowing these down because 'why not' is a terrible idea. 

 

How about DE gives us actual endgame content, then we worry about what is hard/not hard? I have never considered Eidolons or ESO endgame content. 

How about this : No RNG on reward, it's a 100% drop with no other drops like mods or endo

Can you define that "actual endgame content" when saryn or chroma are nuking things like nothing for example? Buffing the other makes the balancing impossible according to bungie so the other way is nerfing those OP things to be in line with the others

[Drivrius]

A blanket Nerf to make existing content "challenging" is easily the best way to alienate a player base, new harder content is a better choice IMO.

 

You don't remove the tires on a car because it crosses the finish line too fast or with too little effort on the part of the driver, you make a longer race track or add more turns and elevations.

[krc473]

3 minutes ago, 844448 said:

Buffing the other makes the balancing impossible according to bungie so the other way is nerfing those OP things to be in line with the others

Well, Bungie said it. Let them use that method. What works for one game may not work for another. Warframe is not the same as Bungie's games. I have found previously that content in Destiny 2 was hard enough, but then you got a group with overpowered stuff and the content was trivialised. Buffing the content would make it too hard for people, nerfing the overpowered stuff is the sensible choice. 

 

Warframe has the opposite issue for me: none of the content has ever really been hard enough. So, the logical option would be to improve the content, not nerf gear. You can still do Eidolons and ESO efficiently without a Chroma or Saryn. DE will have to nerf about too much stuff to be viable: frame stats, frame abilities, weapons, reworking AoE, nerfing mods etc. And DE have to do this in a way that will not cost them too much money - why would I buy stuff when I know I am going to be disappointed by it?

[lnfine]

15 минут назад, 844448 сказал:

Some things to consider, if you guys agree to nerf OP things in warframe, these are some examples of things that will be gone for good

- No more one-shotting eidolon or other bosses with chroma

- No more AoE map nuking in ESO or other modes with saryn or other map nuking frames

So, to reach optimum damage output, you will need support frames to buff the team or debuff enemies

So, how do you expect to achieve this?

Let's say we don't want oneshotting eidolon synovias with Chroma. How?

No more map nuking. What do we do with Saryn, Volt and Equi? Considering the current state of Ember is the result of mindless "no more AoE map nuking".

[844448]

1 minute ago, krc473 said:

Well, Bungie said it. Let them use that method. What works for one game may not work for another. Warframe is not the same as Bungie's games. I have found previously that content in Destiny 2 was hard enough, but then you got a group with overpowered stuff and the content was trivialised. Buffing the content would make it too hard for people, nerfing the overpowered stuff is the sensible choice. 

 

Warframe has the opposite issue for me: none of the content has ever really been hard enough. So, the logical option would be to improve the content, not nerf gear. You can still do Eidolons and ESO efficiently without a Chroma or Saryn. DE will have to nerf about too much stuff to be viable: frame stats, frame abilities, weapons, reworking AoE, nerfing mods etc. And DE have to do this in a way that will not cost them too much money - why would I buy stuff when I know I am going to be disappointed by it?

Well, what makes nerfing overpowered stuff in warframe not a sensible choice when most of the content in warframe is trivialized with overpowered stuff and like you said, buffing the content would make it too hard for people? Buffing things in warframe would have the same result, making it too hard for people that don't have full forma gears with super god roll rivens with OP nuking warframe

Why would I buy stuff when I know I am going to be disappointed by it? This is the same thing happening in destiny right now, where your hard work for those stuff is considered useless and people are being disappointed by it

[844448]

4 minutes ago, lnfine said:

So, how do you expect to achieve this?

Let's say we don't want oneshotting eidolon synovias with Chroma. How?

No more map nuking. What do we do with Saryn, Volt and Equi? Considering the current state of Ember is the result of mindless "no more AoE map nuking".

How? I have some basic ideas on this

Chroma nerf : vex armor buff is capped to 150% - 250%, with power strength only affecting the gain speed per damage taken

Map nuking nerf : the damage you can do to the area is capped, no more infinite scaling on damage and range reduction over time/per cast

[844448]

18 minutes ago, Drivrius said:

A blanket Nerf to make existing content "challenging" is easily the best way to alienate a player base, new harder content is a better choice IMO.

 

You don't remove the tires on a car because it crosses the finish line too fast or with too little effort on the part of the driver, you make a longer race track or add more turns and elevations.

Well, how to make harder content without alienating a player base though?

So, how about adding damage cap/heavy damage reduction like wolf?

[Drivrius]

1 minute ago, 844448 said:

Well, what makes nerfing overpowered stuff in warframe not a sensible choice when most of the content in warframe is trivialized with overpowered stuff and like you said, buffing the content would make it too hard for people? Buffing things in warframe would have the same result, making it too hard for people that don't have full forma gears with super god roll rivens with OP nuking warframe

Why would I buy stuff when I know I am going to be disappointed by it? This is the same thing happening in destiny right now, where your hard work for those stuff is considered useless and people are being disappointed by it

Buffing is better because there is a tried and true way of doing it: difficulty levels.

 

Have an easy, normal and hard mode.

 

Easy has lower drop rates, normal the current ones and hard higher drop rates.

 

That way you play at the level of challenge you want and since "normal" is what we are used to we lose nothing, while you can tweak hard so it's a challenge for the fully formaed frame builds and rivened weapons.

 

Casual lose nothing, newer players have easy to get to know the missions and vets get hard where they can test their mettle and farm a little bit faster then before.

[DiabolusUrsus]

1 minute ago, lnfine said:

Considering the current state of Ember is the result of mindless "no more AoE map nuking".

No she isn't. Ember is the result of unproductive "she needs a nerf, any nerf" vs. "no she doesn't, how dare you suggest nerfing anything" bickering with no actual viable solutions proposed to help with addressing either side's concerns. Both sides had a point:

• Vets really shouldn't be stuck running low-level missions for specific rewards; Warframe is just about zero fun when trivialized into forced leeching.
• Ember fell off way too hard against content that couldn't simply be trivialized with WoF.

However, every discussion leading up to the nerf was an all-or-nothing no-compromise argument and ultimately neither side got what they wanted:

• Ember can still easily trivialize the same missions, even if she sees decreased use because most players just follow the anti-nerf hearsay and switch to any of X other nuke Frames.
• Ember still falls off pretty hard against upper-level content as soon as Armor enters the equation.

As someone who fully supported addressing what Ember did to low-level missions, I also vocally criticize how she was handled when it's brought up in conversation.

27 minutes ago, 844448 said:

With recent news about bungie nerfing many things that considered OP for endgame, bringing them to be in line with other gears and how many people complain that there's no endgame or challenging content, I want to ask you guys if you agree to nerfing things in warframe as balancing to make the endgame challenging?

Some things to consider, if you guys agree to nerf OP things in warframe, these are some examples of things that will be gone for good

- No more one-shotting eidolon or other bosses with chroma

- No more AoE map nuking in ESO or other modes with saryn or other map nuking frames

So, to reach optimum damage output, you will need support frames to buff the team or debuff enemies

What do you think? Should we suggest DE to follow bungie in this?

While I believe nerfs are needed, this is one of the absolute worst ways you could have framed this discussion.

• Nerfs are neither unique to Bungie nor applicable to Warframe in the same way they would be to Destiny. Destiny has (to my understanding) a handful of over-performing weapons that are getting tweaked whereas Warframe consists of more overpowered characters/gear than anything else.
• You're going to get people disagreeing simply because they don't like Bungie/Destiny and loathe the notion of anything associated with either.
• You're completely neglecting to mention what players should expect to get out of this. Nobody wants to be nerfed for nothing in return. There is a reason why nerfs would be beneficial to Warframe:

MORE ENGAGING GAMEPLAY AGAINST ENEMIES THAT DON'T CHEAT.

Dunno about the rest of you, but I'm pretty annoyed by every elite/boss-type enemy immediately getting some BS immunity to powers, status procs, and eventually armor-stripping effects like Shattering Impact/Corrosive Projection/etc. The fact of the matter is that these tools are just plain game-breaking so DE finds it more convenient to simply turn them off whenever they actually make a serious difference (y'know, rather than just letting us overkill hapless mooks by 20x instead of 10x).

I would much rather have moderately less-powerful versions of powers/status/armor stripping that work 100% of the time against all enemies as-applicable than have entire portions of my arsenal taken away because they are game-breaking.

With some appropriate nerfs, we could have a Warframe where enemies like Nullifiers and BS gimmicks like "immune to everything but Void damage" are entirely unnecessary.

1. Player damage needs to be scaled back as a whole so not everything dies in 0.1s. TTK doesn't have to be slow, but it needs to be slower.
2. Powers don't need to be directly nerfed, but energy economy needs to be scaled back. Power-spam is game-breaking overkill; energy is meant to be a limiter to power use and it utterly fails in this capacity as soon as the player acquires a few essential mods.

Neither of those changes have much of anything to do with what Bungie is supposedly doing with Destiny.

[zoffmode]

Isn't Bungie getting really bad backlash for this?

While nerfs are sometimes necessary, doing full nerf this way showcases your own incompetence in designing game difficulty.

Edited May 18, 2019 by zoffmode

[lnfine]

1 минуту назад, 844448 сказал:

How? I have some basic ideas on this

>Chroma nerf : vex armor buff is capped to 150% - 250%, with power strength only affecting the gain speed per damage taken

Okay. I take out Titania and saw eidolon in half. I take out a Rhino with Mutalist Quanta and a rivened secondary and blow a hole in an eidolon. I take out an Ivara with rivened sancti castanas and blow up the eidolon. You are not required to use Chroma for eidolons. Even for 6x3s. Considering vex armour mechanics, capping it at 250% just turns Chroma into a S#&$tier version of Rhino overall (around 200% PS Rhino should have more damage on "normal" primary builds).

>Map nuking nerf : the damage you can do to the area is capped, no more infinite scaling on damage and range reduction over time/per cast

What is damage to the area? What if the area consists of a single lvl 300 Index mob that has individual EHP of a small army of lvl 80 ESO butchers? Does it mean the proposed change also introduces DPS cap on singular targets (one target in an area is still damage in an area), so we are not allowed to kill mobs past lvl 150? What about spores? They don't have an area. How much is the cap, considering that enemy EHP scales and damage cap does not? This is basically what Ember is - range reduction over time and capped damage.

[(PSN)psycofang]

49 minutes ago, 844448 said:

No more one-shotting eidolon or other bosses with chroma

Theyll just do it with other frames. And if not they'll just use Void Strike.

49 minutes ago, 844448 said:

No more AoE map nuking in ESO or other modes with saryn or other map nuking frames

So render Saryn/equinox/localised nukers like gara/nova pointless. How would you even nerf them?

The issue is Destiny doesnt have anywhere near as many variables to deal with to nerf weapon/frame/mod/arcane/focus school to a balanced state. 

 

People break the system in extreme ways all the nerfs will do is barely scratch the surface of a deeper underlying issue

[George_PPS]

Bungie’s recent decisions about their own game have been extremely unpopular and driving out their player base. Why would DE follow bad practices from the game developer that doesn’t listen to players? 

 

To one shot some of those endgame class bosses and enemies, one still need specialized gears and loadouts. If such loadouts can’t do well, any improper loadouts will never be able to do those missions well. Most players don’t have such optimal loadouts to one shot anything, so it will be a big mistake to nerf the best players’ gear but to help other improve and get better. 

[lnfine]

2 минуты назад, George_PPS сказал:

To one shot some of those endgame class bosses and enemies, one still need specialized gears and loadouts. If such loadouts can’t do well, any improper loadouts will never be able to do those missions well.

Nah, not entirely. You can remove non-weapon damage sources or modifiers from the game altogether and turn everyone into a CC/Utility frame. Then anyone can haz equal paper DPS. You would have to completely scrap the current game though.

[Drivrius]

The biggest problem with your question is that it's based on a mistaken assumption and that is that Warframe HAS an endgame at all, here's the sad truth: it doesn't.

Warframe does not have an endgame and truth be told, probably never will.

The reason is that the current model works well enough (no I'm no saying it's perfect, far from it), veterans tired of the same old leave, some permanently while others return, the ones that return can safely do so because the game is casual enough that even if their old builds are not "meta" they will likely still be good enough to face whatever the new content requires of t hem.

The game has enough vets that are not completely alienated by the game and a new intake of fresh players to keep a float and rather then risk breaking that balance with more challenging content that vets want DE opted for pseudo "endgame" modes like Arbitrations and ESO.

There can't really be a real endgame here, not without a risk I believe DE is not willing to take and I can't really blame them...

[George_PPS]

2 minutes ago, lnfine said:

Nah, not entirely. You can remove non-weapon damage sources or modifiers from the game altogether and turn everyone into a CC/Utility frame. Then anyone can haz equal paper DPS. You would have to completely scrap the current game though.

Why would you want everyone or even every weapon  to have equal DPS? 

[Cubewano]

56 minutes ago, krc473 said:

How about DE gives us actual endgame content, then we worry about what is hard/not hard? I have never considered Eidolons or ESO endgame content. 

Please define actual endgame content then, where you can attack enemies from across a room with near insta kill damage, sometimes without even requiring los, on a massive scale, with portable long duration iframes and self heals? How will you make a challenging game mode in that? And no you cannot use iframes, ability nullification, or just absurd bullet sponges, as those have all been heavily cried out against. 

[(PSN)Zero_029]

1 hour ago, 844448 said:

With recent news about bungie nerfing many things that considered OP for endgame, bringing them to be in line with other gears and how many people complain that there's no endgame or challenging content, I want to ask you guys if you agree to nerfing things in warframe as balancing to make the endgame challenging?

Some things to consider, if you guys agree to nerf OP things in warframe, these are some examples of things that will be gone for good

- No more one-shotting eidolon or other bosses with chroma

- No more AoE map nuking in ESO or other modes with saryn or other map nuking frames

So, to reach optimum damage output, you will need support frames to buff the team or debuff enemies

What do you think? Should we suggest DE to follow bungie in this?

Going to play Devil's Advocate and try & speak for both sides.
The bulk of replies you get will be "No"
Most players do not want to lose their power. Destiny's community is raging because of this undeniable fact.
However, sometimes it IS needed.

If DE were to nerf all the OP items in Warframe: Specific Mods (Condition Overload, Maiming Strike, Multishot, Covert Lethality, etc), abilities, & weapons
It would turn Warframe into a completely different game.
Destiny combat is not nearly as chaotic as Warframe's. Destiny combat is typical FPS gameplay, the enemies on screen are very limited, and thus encounters are designed differently.
So, Warframe would need to receive enemy count reductions, as well as have movement tweaked, and other systems in order to bring the entire package in line.

As too much gameplay relies on the Devil May Cry/Dynasty Warriors like gameplay that Warframe mirrors.
Warframe is fast, furious, action packed, chaotic, and maintains a deep RPG development system.
Destiny is slow, methodical, skill/precision-based, orderly (it rarely gets truly chaotic in Destiny PVE. I mean, for Destiny a room with 10 enemies is chaos. Warframe isn't chaotic until you've got 20+ enemies minimum), encounter focus more on puzzle like/MMO mechanics than actual combat (Admittedly, Warframe is slowly moving in this direction), & focuses on FPS mechanics with a few touches of RPG development.

To create a system where support frames, tank frames, and damage frames are all needed to succeed & rely on each other...well that would also require ability tweaks.
Things that make Tanks more tanky, support classes would need stronger buffs as they have to focus more on buffing than fighting, additionally every Frame would need some form of support, self support, and etc in order to be viable went brought into the group setting.
Warframe right now is very flexible, to remove that flexibility for the sake of adding challenge also means changes across the board.

DE tries to keep Warframe accessible. Destiny is NOT as accessible as it first appears.
In fact, it's very strict on the type on player it accepts (You play Co-Op Period. You have a circle of friends playing Period), and goes out of its way to make those who don't follow its direction as miserable as possible.
This is part of why Destiny is losing players at a rate that Bungie doesn't care to admit is alarming.
 

1 hour ago, krc473 said:

No. DE really shouldn't do this.

In a game where the reward you want has a very low chance, you want to get stuff done as quickly as possible. It is likely going to take many runs, and slowing these down because 'why not' is a terrible idea.

To be fair, Destiny Endgame has low drop rates as well. RPGs, especially Looters are ALL plagued by low drop rates (it's part of the balance to be blunt).
SO a nerf across the board does not need a drop rate increase. It would be GREATLY appreciate by the community. But it is not required.

1 hour ago, krc473 said:

How about DE gives us actual endgame content, then we worry about what is hard/not hard? I have never considered Eidolons or ESO endgame content.

Thank you for this. I am NOT picking on you btw. You just stated some things perfectly.
Many players are Endgame players, however they CHOOSE of their own volition to not accept Warframe's Endgame.
Profit Taker, Exploiter, Eidolons, Arbitrations; are all Endgame. But players have decided that the will not accept that so they claim their is no endgame.
The bottomline is...Endgame is what the developer says Endgame is.

Bungie says: Raids, Trials (before they were removed), Gambit Prime, Nightfall, & Iron banner are considered to be Destiny 2's "Current" Endgame activities by Bungie.
The Destiny playerbase (to it's credit) accepts this & focuses on the game's other issues (like Progression).

DE says: Arbitrations, Eidiolons, Orbs, ESO, are the "current" Endgame. With Railjack being teased as a new mode & I believe Steve said it will have it's own "Endgame"/be more Endgame designed/designated than other modes they've added in the past. Railjack isn't meant/designed to be accessible by new players (makes sense...though).
However, Warframe players just refuse to accept that. So...*shrug*

All that said....
Many players dislike having enemies who are immune/resistant/shrug off their powers & builds.

But Destiny's bosses & raids are ALL this.
In Destiny's best encounters the Boss is only dps'd in small intervals/windows. The rest of the time is spent dodging the boss & fulfilling mechanics.
I personally got tired of this. I dislike the MMO mentality of: "If I hit these switches in order the boss will beat himself up."
I like how Warframe's bosses are actual fights.
I digress...

The bottomline is that...the immunity, mechanics, & resistance is what makes Destiny's encounters better. It makes them feel more endgame. However it also makes them frustrating, & at times feel like you're playing simon says more so than fighting an enemy.

The Exploiter Orb Phase 2 IS a VERY Destiny style Boss fight. Won't lie, outside of the cool cutscenes mid-fight that fight gave me Destiny flashbacks.
Let that sink in.
Exploiter was an easy Destiny boss however. But the STYLE of gameplay aka: The reliance on mechanics for an invincible boss, that eventually open up to "dps windows" is.

Honestly, Warframe doesn't need a across the board gameplay nerf if endgame encounters keep going in the direction they are in.
But player need to accept that you can't have it both ways.
If a boss can be damaged then players will find away to just dmg it to death & ignore the inconvenient mechanics. End of story.

Ugh...to think I'm somewhat on the same side as DiablusUrsus on this. *vomits* 

Edited May 18, 2019 by (PS4)Zero_029
Phone posted when the screen rotated. -_-

[Cubewano]

10 minutes ago, George_PPS said:

To one shot some of those endgame class bosses and enemies, one still need specialized gears and loadouts. If such loadouts can’t do well, any improper loadouts will never be able to do those missions well. Most players don’t have such optimal loadouts to one shot anything, so it will be a big mistake to nerf the best players’ gear but to help other improve and get better. 

Where are you getting your metrics from? I run into people left right and center all across the game who are able to face roll a majority of content and nuke rooms with ease. A few years back maybe it took actual effort to reach those levels of power, but since we've just been getting more and more power over those years being game breaking at this point is like middle of the road stages of progression. There isn't even a reason to maximize yourself right now, because there isn't anything that can take what we have even at half capacity. 

[George_PPS]

1 minute ago, Cubewano said:

Where are you getting your metrics from? I run into people left right and center all across the game who are able to face roll a majority of content and nuke rooms with ease. A few years back maybe it took actual effort to reach those levels of power, but since we've just been getting more and more power over those years being game breaking at this point is like middle of the road stages of progression. There isn't even a reason to maximize yourself right now, because there isn't anything that can take what we have even at half capacity. 

For newer players, most “easy” high level contents we are doing with ease are not easy. We have ESO and Arbitration. We also have Eidolon hunting that require specific and specialized loadout to do efficiently. Newer and mid tier players don’t have that. 

[lnfine]

9 минут назад, George_PPS сказал:

Why would you want everyone or even every weapon  to have equal DPS? 

Because if you don't want optimal setups to be required, you want there to be no optimal setups. If there's a frame-specific damage multiplier, the frame with the best applicable multiplier will be required for the specific role like shooting eidolons. Effective DPS is a natural number. Set of natural numbers is ordered. Limited subset of natural numbers has a maximum element that is greater than all the other elements in that set. It is the "best effective DPS" element in this case. Which is meta. Meta is not a game design error or a free mason conspiracy. Meta is a natural property of objective reality.

[NaoEthelia]

Have you seen how poorly the balance changes were received? The entire reddit is in massive meltdown: https://www.reddit.com/r/DestinyTheGame

[(PSN)Zero_029]

1 minute ago, NaoEthelia said:

Have you seen how poorly the balance changes were received? The entire reddit is in massive meltdown: https://www.reddit.com/r/DestinyTheGame

They are more in meltdown because the meta weapons got nerfed.
Many of those weapons were earned through legitimately hard as all hell quests, time-gated questes, and time gated activites.

So the nerf stings heavily.