Should DE follow bungie's footsteps on balancing for endgame?

[SilverRook]

ummmm.......    no.

 

it might seem like such a simple thing to Nerf this and nerf that to reduce things from becoming OP..... but that's not really the weapons fault.  its the enemies. they are too many in number and as such are trash mobs to be cleared with OP weapons.

just saying nerf and waving a magic wand isn't quite how it works.
Rebalancing stuff at this late stage would like be trying to unmake an omelette.

enemies need to change their tactics and ai to make them harder instead of just facerolling against my catchmoon.
But thats a massive can of worms i'm not all that interested in tbh

making enemies smarter and scaling better is the way forward not going backwards with nerfs.

[Ryim_Drykeon]

[TheKurtiStryke]

please, when there are "De" and "bungie" in the same sentence, do not put  such horrible words like "De should follow/should be like" thx.

[Oreades]

OR...... bare with me here....... 

People could show an ounce of self control and not push their frames past the redline with every mod under the sun and then complain that everything is too easy. 

Warframe is a game that essentially lets you choose your difficulty, most people choose easy and delude themselves into thinking it's the only choice because they "earned" it. If you want challenge, it's there for the taking.... simply lift a finger and change your build/playstile instead of continually insisting the game be changed for you. 

Edited May 18, 2019 by Oreades
removed an extra 'are'

[SneakyErvin]

6 hours ago, 844448 said:

With recent news about bungie nerfing many things that considered OP for endgame, bringing them to be in line with other gears and how many people complain that there's no endgame or challenging content, I want to ask you guys if you agree to nerfing things in warframe as balancing to make the endgame challenging?

Some things to consider, if you guys agree to nerf OP things in warframe, these are some examples of things that will be gone for good

- No more one-shotting eidolon or other bosses with chroma

- No more AoE map nuking in ESO or other modes with saryn or other map nuking frames

So, to reach optimum damage output, you will need support frames to buff the team or debuff enemies

What do you think? Should we suggest DE to follow bungie in this?

It wouldnt work because the two games are barely in the same ballpark.

WF is a horde looter shooter, Dest2 is a looter shooter. The mob density of the games are worlds apart.

The problem in WF isnt that Saryn or any other AoE frame wipes a map, the problem is that there are too many trash enemies and not enough heavy/threatening units. They need to add mobs that actually pose a threat and that may be straight up immune to void powers and things that counter our near immortality on certain frames etc. Units like the Nox should be far more common, instead of seeing 2 or so at wave 10 of a defense we should see 10 or maybe 15.

Nerfing is not the answer.

[rand0mname]

@(PS4)Taishin_Ishu Aye. Letting go of a favorite game in time can be hard, but if the player is bored, tired and lost interest, it is up to a player to look for another poison, is it not? Games are not something worth taking that seriously.

Forum disputes, on the other hand, are serious business!

Back to topic: on challenge in Destiny 2 and Warframe.

In Destiny 2, PvP is a big part of the game. You will have to play it if you want BiS gear (several weapons need PvP to fully unlock their potential and the way leveling works you will not want to skip weekly PvP Engrams) and want to see all story/lore (especially with a Season of the Drifter). So... since you are shoehorned into PvP, you will be challenged in Destiny by other players. If you survive, adapt and like the taste of other Guardians blood, you are on the hook. What can complete with variety and unpredictability of other players?

In Warframe - Conclave exists... somewhere. Majority have been very clear in their opinion on that. Let’s see what Stalker mode bring?

As for PvE... It seems that Bungie seriously wants to make average Guardians feel miserable as much as possible on every step of their journey to the current Season meta. But, it is challenging and then you get to the top, you probably will feel pretty good. And then next Season arrive (by the way, hope you found a deal with a pass) and... well, it is time to start climbing again.

DE, on the other hand, spoils Tenno rotten. As a result, we are so overpowered, that it is almost impossible to create a challenge (not to mention that different players have very different ideas of what “challenge” is). And we are so spoiled, that taking that power away seems almost impossible too. Just look at what happened to Orb Vallis high alert enemies. They were easy compared to things you could run in the Dreaming city, and yet... they were “too hard”.

So, if you got this far, do you think it is even possible (or needed) to insert restrictions and LtP of D2 into powertrip and pondering to players of WF? And how challenging D2 will be without PvP and constant depowering of players?

Edited May 18, 2019 by rand0mname
Spelling. “Disputations”. What is it even mean?

[YazMatazO]

7 hours ago, 844448 said:

With recent news about bungie nerfing many things that considered OP for endgame, bringing them to be in line with other gears and how many people complain that there's no endgame or challenging content, I want to ask you guys if you agree to nerfing things in warframe as balancing to make the endgame challenging?

Some things to consider, if you guys agree to nerf OP things in warframe, these are some examples of things that will be gone for good

- No more one-shotting eidolon or other bosses with chroma

- No more AoE map nuking in ESO or other modes with saryn or other map nuking frames

So, to reach optimum damage output, you will need support frames to buff the team or debuff enemies

What do you think? Should we suggest DE to follow bungie in this?

Well, I am scratching my chin when I think about 'nerf'. Sure, if they can't come up with anything else, than yeah - 'nerfing' the player would probably be the most sensible thing. 

However.

Reworking damage systems - now that, in my opinion, is the way to go. 

Adding more variability to enemies via reusing assets already found in the game? Yes!

New tile sets made with parkour system in mind? Yes!

New complex missions? Yes!

Maybe look into the revives, as well. 

[0_The_F00l]

4 hours ago, (PS4)Taishin_Ishu said:

Well, tbh, halving our power or doubling the enemies' power...mathematically has basically the same outcome.

Whether I double your wages or halve the price of the product you want, you're going to be paying the same amount, RELATIVELY speaking.

Uh yeah, exactly what I said. 

[(PSN)FriendSharkey]

There is no end-game..That is something from other games and Youtuber click bait discussions..

Warframe hinges on not having an end game...Even if they introduce something called a end game some portion of the community will say it's not...Warframe is a free to play-game...DE makes money on selling items, it makes money on the power creep..You are for the most part hunting down anything that will bolster the Meta, which gets nerfed for a new Meta that shows up a month after said Nerf...

This game is a simple engine similar to Weightlifting...You show up..you get stronger for some event or looking good and DE tosses you throw away mobs for you to blow up for entertainment while nestling a said wanted mod within a drop table....

Nerfing the meta to farm last years Eidolons,,??? I don't think so. They'll instead make it easier in order to shuffle along everyone who should be out of POE to the next big content drop, which will be the Jupiter fight and get players to Venus so the Orb Mother fight has a populace to keep farmers engaged there...

Bungie nerfs and balances weapons for PVP and even then they get raked over the coals by their own community for it.... their end game is obtainable due to Destiny 3 is in the works..They want you hit a wall so you'll buy the next installment...

Warframe has no such wall...You will see an Endgame when DE makes the commitment to Warframe 2....but until then..they'll change things up as always and a meta will arise..get nerfed..and new meta will follow suit...as it has for six years now...

[Drivrius]

6 hours ago, Cubewano said:

It does when the other option is instant deletion, even if just to the extent of it allowing for more potential screw ups and resource depletion. It's also really the only tools they have left if nerfing is off the table. 

Or how else do they make the tracks more difficult if adding new jumps, longer routes, and more obstacles aren't an option either? 

 

There is no other option at the moment, because Warframe can't really afford an endgame, slowing down our farming is pretty much all they can do (rep is timed gated for this reason as well) but like I said it doesn't make it in any way shape or form more challenging, just more annoying.

 

And challenge is what the vets wants, well some of them, I for one don't really feel the need for harder content but I can understand where vets are coming from.

I really think multiple difficulties would fix this, but it would be a gigantic undertaking with no certain outcome for DE, so I don't think we'll ever have any content that requires "the best of the best"  from frames, weapons, mods, rivens, etc just for a descent chance at victory.

 

Because that is the point of a challenge, at least that's what I think an endgame challenge vets want, something that takes all their skills and the best possible gear not to farm in a speedy fashion but simply to complete the mission.

 

Which I think goes against Warframe's game model in all honesty.

 

[Drivrius]

4 hours ago, FlusteredFerret said:

Kind of a silly comparison. What you actually do is change the engine formula to a smaller size, remove turbos etc. to reduce power and you can limit aerodynamics. You can even change the wheel size & tyre design to reduce grip. These are things that have actually been done.

What if there is no room to extend the circuit, or it costs too much money to redesign? Actually easier just to change the car design regs in some cases.

 

A blanket nerf is also the quickest, easiest and most logical way to create balance. But because DE recognise a large part of the player base would spit their dummies out, they are looking at ways to increase difficulty instead. Could be a long time coming though, so don't hold your breath...

 

Okay but at what point are you no longer driving the same car thou?

 

Because if you change the engine, remove turbos, reduce power, limit aerodynamics, give it smaller wheel size & tire design you're pretty much changing the whole car, from chassis to internal components...

 

The problem I see with the ways DE as "increased difficulty" is that it doesn't, it slows down farming not increase the risk of failure they might as well just add a time gate or a daily kill cap to every boss fight, because that's all the current "increased difficulty" is right now...

 

Anyway I don't think a blanket nerf is a good idea, Hell I can't think of a more suicidal move for DE short of making boss drops a micro-transaction from a lootbox 😱.

 

You don't take away everything the player has built and expect anything other then a riot.

 

 

P.S. I feel Prime mods are a large part of the power creep, if they stopped adding them and maybe focus more on Amalgam mods in the future the situation would not improve over night but would deteriorate at a much slower pace, adding more options rather then raw power also feels like a more rewarding system to customize your gear, might just be me thou no idea.

[Invisibleaxeman]

Not particularly attached to any weapon or frame, enjoy mixing it up.  Would be quite happy if everything was rebalanced.

[SneakyErvin]

4 hours ago, YazMatazO said:

Maybe look into the revives, as well. 

I think they should remove the option to be able to rezz as operator. Too much cheese going on with it.

[Psykhe27]

14 hours ago, 844448 said:

With recent news about bungie nerfing many things that considered OP for endgame, bringing them to be in line with other gears and how many people complain that there's no endgame or challenging content, I want to ask you guys if you agree to nerfing things in warframe as balancing to make the endgame challenging?

Some things to consider, if you guys agree to nerf OP things in warframe, these are some examples of things that will be gone for good

- No more one-shotting eidolon or other bosses with chroma

- No more AoE map nuking in ESO or other modes with saryn or other map nuking frames

So, to reach optimum damage output, you will need support frames to buff the team or debuff enemies

What do you think? Should we suggest DE to follow bungie in this?

Map nuking frames are fine.

Enemies just need to scale harder. We should need support frames for DR and CC frames to tank. We should need strategy to beat missions.

ESO and Arbitrations (on a normal loot cycle) should scale infinitely.

The only challenge is finding the time to level weapons and frames. After you have done that, there is nothing to do but accumulate more plat. Why get more plat than having 5 op rivens for your favorite weapons? You don't need to is the answer because you don't even need rivens for ANY content at all, which you SHOULD.

[bibmobello]

A cooperative game is made by the players . if the players like to shoot everything, smashing random buttons, with unlimited revives, without any strategy, idolizing an A$$, the only endgame  is wasting credits to transmute mods like a slot machine, rolling useless rivens  and testing the weapons in simulacrum.

Industry creates what people want.

Edited May 18, 2019 by bibmobello

[Cubewano]

11 hours ago, Drivrius said:

There is no other option at the moment, because Warframe can't really afford an endgame, slowing down our farming is pretty much all they can do (rep is timed gated for this reason as well) but like I said it doesn't make it in any way shape or form more challenging, just more annoying.

 

And challenge is what the vets wants, well some of them, I for one don't really feel the need for harder content but I can understand where vets are coming from.

I really think multiple difficulties would fix this, but it would be a gigantic undertaking with no certain outcome for DE, so I don't think we'll ever have any content that requires "the best of the best"  from frames, weapons, mods, rivens, etc just for a descent chance at victory.

 

Because that is the point of a challenge, at least that's what I think an endgame challenge vets want, something that takes all their skills and the best possible gear not to farm in a speedy fashion but simply to complete the mission.

 

Which I think goes against Warframe's game model in all honesty.

 

There are options, you just shot them all down, which I hope you can appreciate as showing how contradictory the sentiments towards this situation is. People want something, but also rail against all changes for that something, then complain again after that they didn't get what they wanted. And you still have to gall to act like DE is doing something wrong or lesser. 

And I would say engagement is what vets want, or really anyone past earlier game honestly, people don't need to feel pushed to their utmost limits into min maxing territory, they just want to feel any push at all, any mental involvement, something that generates remotely complex feedback in their skull. Our old endless runs used to fill this rut some, and it was far from min max builds to achieve, similarly did raids to a lesser degree, so honestly when people say they want difficulty they mean just they want some kind of mental involvement, as opposed to the near remote control setup the game has been easing towards.

It's also not at all reasonable to think multiple difficulty settings would fix this issue looking back to the solutions you just shot down a post prior, which is essentially what higher difficulties mandate, just more spongy enemy units, which didn't work and just had people bored. The reason there is no difficulty is because of design issues inherently tied to how frames function, and operators to an extent, and there is no getting around how broken they are except to address them. DE knows this, its why they made so many nullification factors for frames in regards to all areas of aimed high level or moderately difficult content. There is nothing some stat tweaks can do against just fundamentally broken mechanics. 

In that regard, I do think this situation entirely fits the Warframe model, or at least the model the devs always presented themselves to desire, which is an engaging dynamic combat shooter with loads of creative options. As it is a lot of people just want that dynamic engagement to come through. 

Edited May 19, 2019 by Cubewano

[Cubewano]

1 hour ago, Psykhe27 said:

Map nuking frames are fine.

Enemies just need to scale harder. We should need support frames for DR and CC frames to tank. We should need strategy to beat missions.

ESO and Arbitrations (on a normal loot cycle) should scale infinitely.

The only challenge is finding the time to level weapons and frames. After you have done that, there is nothing to do but accumulate more plat. Why get more plat than having 5 op rivens for your favorite weapons? You don't need to is the answer because you don't even need rivens for ANY content at all, which you SHOULD.

So long as map nukes exist though DR and CC can't matter, as death is the ultimate DR and CC. You're enemies need to be able to survive long enough to be a threat for support roles to matter, nukes inherently go against that notion in this game. 

[Cubewano]

3 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

I think they should remove the option to be able to rezz as operator. Too much cheese going on with it.

Or pull us out of our iframe at the least while in the act. 

[Cubewano]

10 hours ago, SilverRook said:

ummmm.......    no.

 

it might seem like such a simple thing to Nerf this and nerf that to reduce things from becoming OP..... but that's not really the weapons fault.  its the enemies. they are too many in number and as such are trash mobs to be cleared with OP weapons.

just saying nerf and waving a magic wand isn't quite how it works.
Rebalancing stuff at this late stage would like be trying to unmake an omelette.

enemies need to change their tactics and ai to make them harder instead of just facerolling against my catchmoon.
But thats a massive can of worms i'm not all that interested in tbh

making enemies smarter and scaling better is the way forward not going backwards with nerfs.

can i ask what's the difference between reducing the damage your weapon can deal and increasing the damage an enemy can tank? 

[SilverRook]

3 hours ago, Cubewano said:

can i ask what's the difference between reducing the damage your weapon can deal and increasing the damage an enemy can tank? 

sure you can ask, but what does that have to do with my post ? 

 

 

[mikakor]

We could have a beginning of end game if they weren't so scared of adding content that couldn't be done by XXX_ENTITLEDNOOB_XXX, MR 3, who just started the game, who need to be able to finish any content what so #*!%ing ever. The day they will understand that it's #*!%ing normal for a game to have content that SOME players can't achieve with a participation trophy, it will already be a huge progress

[Cubewano]

39 minutes ago, SilverRook said:

sure you can ask, but what does that have to do with my post ? 

 

 

you're saying they shouldn't nerf us but buff the enemies, so answer the question, what is the difference between making one thing stronger versus making the other thing weaker? 

[(PSN)JustJoshinEnt]

17 hours ago, Drivrius said:

Because that is the point of a challenge, at least that's what I think an endgame challenge vets want, something that takes all their skills and the best possible gear not to farm in a speedy fashion but simply to complete the mission.

If that were the case, then where do all these "BUT TEH REWARDZZZZZZ?!?!?  WE NEED MOAR!! NO POINT IN RUNNING MISSION WITHOUT BETTER REWARDZZZ!!!!" threads come from?  

DE creates challenge proposals, noone wants them unless they get more powercreep from it....but then DE gives more powercreep and the players complain, after receiving said power, that the missions are now "boring" and "not worth running until we  get MORE STUFF!"

Just seems to contradict what some seem to be asking for...

17 hours ago, Drivrius said:

P.S. I feel Prime mods are a large part of the power creep, if they stopped adding them and maybe focus more on Amalgam mods in the future the situation would not improve over night but would deteriorate at a much slower pace, adding more options rather then raw power also feels like a more rewarding system to customize your gear, might just be me thou no idea.

Problem is the playerbase.  These days, if you don't give players MORE "power" or higher "numbers" than the current mods, they disregard it as "trash".  It's an attitude issue and it's on players, not DE. 

I mean, I agree...more options seems like more fun, rather than just continually increasing numbers for a narrow range of stats.  BUT....I do not represent all players, so ... 😕

[SilverRook]

On 2019-05-19 at 2:10 AM, Cubewano said:

you're saying they shouldn't nerf us but buff the enemies, so answer the question, what is the difference between making one thing stronger versus making the other thing weaker? 

no i said make them smarter not buff their health......

On 2019-05-18 at 11:28 AM, SilverRook said:

making enemies smarter and scaling better is the way forward not going backwards with nerfs.

 

[Cubewano]

8 minutes ago, SilverRook said:

no i said make them smarter not buff their health......

their scaling is their health/damage/armor and improving ai alone isn't going to do the trick. but still i see you haven't answered, problem comprehending the question?