Should DE follow bungie's footsteps on balancing for endgame?

[Spectre-8]

Yeah let's remove fun from the game , because Bungo said so .

[(NSW)1kSakura]

Uh, have you been watching videos and reading threads online recently??? Nerfing something in warframe is definitely not what most people want for this game.

[844448]

6 hours ago, (NSW)1kSakura said:

Uh, have you been watching videos and reading threads online recently??? Nerfing something in warframe is definitely not what most people want for this game.

And for some reason they also want challenging content or endgame when being a god, weird isn't it?

[(XBOX)An Angry Mod]

On 2019-05-18 at 12:36 AM, 844448 said:

How? I have some basic ideas on this

Chroma nerf : vex armor buff is capped to 150% - 250%, with power strength only affecting the gain speed per damage taken

Map nuking nerf : the damage you can do to the area is capped, no more infinite scaling on damage and range reduction over time/per cast

What this really sounds like is 50% of the player base yeeting wf out the window and playing something else. Your idea is terrible, chroma already has 2 useless abilities, and you suggest he be given a third via, your suggestion? Yeah thats a big fat no IMO. they already nuked vex armor once (mind you, for good reason). And the ability to not have infinite scaling dmg is silly, for reasons more obvious.

 

[zoffmode]

Nerfing damage doesn't make your game more challenging. It just makes it more tedious and annoying. It's basically just slowing clear times for people in futile attempt to make people play longer. I'd rather quit the game than spend double the time doing Eidolons for example.

Only nerfing survivability and making enemies actually be threatening serves function of making something a challenge. But DE doesn't want to do that because they're afraid people might find the game too hard. In fact, they always keep doing the opposite of adding a challenge. Adding mods and frames that just have so much tools to survive it's impossible to have a challenge with them. Oh, and don't get me started on spoiler mode. 

Edited June 4, 2019 by zoffmode

[Ikyr0]

Absolutely. Most reasonable players want this. Having a good endgame doesn't harm casual/new players in any way. It just gives them a reason to stick around after unlocking & maxing everything. I continue to play the WF treadmill of logging in for new content to craft the latest frames/guns, completing everything in 5-10 hours, and then wonder what to actually use my new toys for. The answer is usually nothing (maybe long Arby, or a Mot run for trash rewards).Then I take a break, come back in a few months, rinse and repeat. IMO this isn't sustainable for devs OR players.

I hope DE can deliver a good balancing pass on endgame content, and create additional worthwhile encounters at this level of play.

Edited June 4, 2019 by Ikyr0

[Sigma-118]

On 2019-05-18 at 7:09 AM, 844448 said:

With recent news about bungie nerfing many things that considered OP for endgame, bringing them to be in line with other gears and how many people complain that there's no endgame or challenging content, I want to ask you guys if you agree to nerfing things in warframe as balancing to make the endgame challenging?

Some things to consider, if you guys agree to nerf OP things in warframe, these are some examples of things that will be gone for good

- No more one-shotting eidolon or other bosses with chroma

- No more AoE map nuking in ESO or other modes with saryn or other map nuking frames

So, to reach optimum damage output, you will need support frames to buff the team or debuff enemies

What do you think? Should we suggest DE to follow bungie in this?

Naaaaah, as much as some challenge would be nice the badass feeling of playing warframe is something I value more than challenge. I can play other games for difficult stuff. But theres no other game (that I know of) that delivers such unbridled power into the hands of its players.

Not to mention that even if all the OP stuff were to be nerfed that would just be numbers. And even without those high numbers im pretty sure we wouldnt experience a lot of challenge in the content that exists now simply beacuse of the other side of the coin of power we have in warframe. One side is high numbers but the other is versatility. And honestly thats the most OP thing we got. Our parkour and currently 160 different abilities collectvely gives us a toolkit with a perfect tool to trivialize whatever would be challenge we come across. No matter what it is we probably have a way to make it easy.

We just have to many tools with to many different effects, no matter what DE throws at us well have the perfect counter. And this isnt really something that can be fixed without taking away all our fancy toys. But the fancy toys is one of the best parts of warframe so .... yeah I think most of us would like to keep our fancy toys

And even when it comes to making new content that challenges us, in order to make sure that we dont have an ability combination that trivializes it DE would have to check 160 different abilities that can be combined 4 at a time at most, unless im mistaken that should bring us to 26,294,360 potential ability combinations alone. Thats not even accounting for our parkour and the maps themselves and how those could potentially play into the 26 million combos.

Now sure DE could just take it one thing at a time instead of using unimaginable amounts of time and resources, nerfing stuff as problems crop up. But we all know what thats like.

We even have a phrase for it: "DEs bringing the nerf hammer"

And again im not to sure wether any of us would enjoy DE nerfing the S#&$ out of stuff whenever they realese new content.

Edit: counted the potential combinations completly wrong, we got 91,390 potential KIT combinations, each kit consisting of 4 abilitys. Its in the morning where im at so I dont have the brainpower to try to figure out how many total ability combinations we got. Can imagine its a lot though.

Edited June 4, 2019 by Sigma-118
mathematical mistake

[844448]

On 2019-05-18 at 5:33 PM, Ryim_Drykeon said:

Maybe I'm tired of people asking for a challenge when you're basically thanos?

[FlusteredFerret]

On 2019-06-02 at 6:20 PM, (NSW)1kSakura said:

Uh, have you been watching videos and reading threads online recently??? Nerfing something in warframe is definitely not what most people want for this game.

May not be what most people (on the forum) want...but it may be ultimately whats best for the game in the long run.

But that will come down to whether DE can find a satisfactory way of scaling enemy difficulty in line with the already-obscene levels of power attainable by players. If they can, then a nerf won't be necessary, but until then it should remain an option.

At the very least they should not release any new frames or gear that is more powerful than what is already available.

 

[Spectre-8]

Just visit Bungo's forums , there was literally a thread calling out their dev team for being mentally challenged . 🤣

[Cubewano]

On 2019-06-01 at 12:28 AM, 844448 said:

So, making the enemy scaling steeper to out-scale us?

Scaling isn't going to counter how just fundamentally broken our powers are, we need full on mechanical changes, not just number tweaks. 

On 2019-06-01 at 4:45 PM, ThumpumGood said:

Everyone did endless missions until the raids came. Then the nerf hammer hit everything. Fixed level content could not compete with endless level Frames being that good. Nyx, Mirage, Ember, Vauban and on and on.

Translation... they're already ahead of bungi

Everyone did endless missions until the void rework, nerfing had no relation, the closest to an endgame scene we had died because of a system rework to make it more accessible.

[Cubewano]

On 2019-06-08 at 7:21 AM, moostar95 said:

At this point, its more real for DE to fix old frames and enemy scaling before even thinking of a endgame. 

Their issue is more than just things being outdated, they have quite simply just failed to ever set some kind of power/balance standard for their game and it's corroded away the "endgame" experience over the years. Before DE hopes to find an endgame, they first need to decide where the upper limits of our powers are supposed to be, and actually put that into practice, there is no way to track and keep engagement/challenge in difficulty settings that are constantly fluctuating. 

[844448]

2 hours ago, Cubewano said:

Their issue is more than just things being outdated, they have quite simply just failed to ever set some kind of power/balance standard for their game and it's corroded away the "endgame" experience over the years. Before DE hopes to find an endgame, they first need to decide where the upper limits of our powers are supposed to be, and actually put that into practice, there is no way to track and keep engagement/challenge in difficulty settings that are constantly fluctuating. 

either nerf, or people have accept that we're even more powerful than thanos when we can wipe everything without infinity gauntlet

 

3 hours ago, Cubewano said:

Scaling isn't going to counter how just fundamentally broken our powers are, we need full on mechanical changes, not just number tweaks. 

And what kind of mechanical changes you're talking about here?

[(XBOX)zThulsaDoomz]

Been saying it for years, this game has found it's niche as a casual looter shooter involving omnipotent protagonists and drastically over tuned weaponry.

DE has long passed the point where they can implement some kind of challenge where it satisfies the playerbase while not nerfing everything into the ground.  This game at this point is firmly rooted in a casual environment, and that's okay.

Not every game has to be Dark Souls or Sekiro 2.0.....

Edited June 11, 2019 by (XB1)Thy Divinity

[MonsterOfMyOwn]

My opinion is that Mot (Void Survival) between 10min and 20min with Mag prime and without adaptation is the closest thing to what I would like as a end-game : multiple ennemy types with strenght and weakness, kill things fast, getting killed fast if you don't pay attention.

what casualize the game are mostly memeing strike, Chroma / Inaros and catchmoon. But as some content are "balanced" for these, I have little faith for "end-game" that doesn't imply bending the game mechanics to be unkillable and red crit'ing everything.

[Corvid]

7 hours ago, 844448 said:

And what kind of mechanical changes you're talking about here?

If I were to hazard a guess, either giving certain enemies innate resistance to certain abilities, or add in a mechanic that prevents the current degree of power spam.

[844448]

51 minutes ago, Corvid said:

If I were to hazard a guess, either giving certain enemies innate resistance to certain abilities, or add in a mechanic that prevents the current degree of power spam.

we already have them, nox, nullifier, ancient healer to name a few

[DirePresent]

On 2019-05-18 at 2:12 AM, krc473 said:

In a game where the reward you want has a very low chance, you want to get stuff done as quickly as possible. It is likely going to take many runs, and slowing these down because 'why not' is a terrible idea. 

 I see your point there, it doesn't limit only to rewards, but also to leveling up items, Saryn make things way more tolerable (if I'd had to lvl up things without her it'd become a drag). Yet that's a wrong way of seeing at the problem. What'd be needed would be to rebalance her and raise drop chances/gained affinity. Without seeing at the whole picture rebalancing seems like a bad idea.

Quote

How about DE gives us actual endgame content, then we worry about what is hard/not hard? I have never considered Eidolons or ESO endgame content. 

I think that without heavily limiting what we can do with our frames/operators that's truly impossible. For any challenge there's at the game, there's at least a frame that can totally trivialize it, and remember, the moment a more complicated game mode would be introduced (like Raids) that'd be the moment you get a mountain of salty players complaining about all the other ones that have trouble playing that mode ruining the experience for a big amount of players.

[Ikyr0]

14 hours ago, MonsterOfMyOwn said:

My opinion is that Mot (Void Survival) between 10min and 20min with Mag prime and without adaptation is the closest thing to what I would like as a end-game : multiple ennemy types with strenght and weakness, kill things fast, getting killed fast if you don't pay attention.

what casualize the game are mostly memeing strike, Chroma / Inaros and catchmoon. But as some content are "balanced" for these, I have little faith for "end-game" that doesn't imply bending the game mechanics to be unkillable and red crit'ing everything.

Great points. Doing survival runs with Mag is WF on hard mode, but getting the hang of it is super rewarding. There needs to be a reference point for what endgame is, and then standards need to be set. Most frames, weapons, and mods wouldn't actually need a nerf...but to say that there aren't things that are blatantly broken would be a lie. I feel DE needs to draw a line and actually flesh out the higher level content. They could learn a ton from how scaling of difficulty and rewards is done in Division 2. I don't know what Bungie is doing about endgame, but if it's anything like Division 2, I can see myself playing it more than WF. The lack of challenging content is absolutely killing this game for me (800 hours in), and i'm struggling each day to squeeze out as much as I can from it before I finally quit...WF truly has unique lore, style, and combat mechanics.

Edited June 12, 2019 by Ikyr0

[Oreades]

On 2019-06-02 at 7:27 PM, 844448 said:

And for some reason they also want challenging content or endgame when being a god, weird isn't it?

No the weird part is the fact that they can't be asked to not redline their builds. It's almost as if Warframe is only as hard as you make it and they have chosen EZ mode and then without the slightest hint of irony started complaining that everything is too EZ. 

If only there was some way that they could increase the challenge (as if by magic) they experienced ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Edited June 12, 2019 by Oreades

[844448]

1 hour ago, Ikyr0 said:

Great points. Doing survival runs with Mag is WF on hard mode, but getting the hang of it is super rewarding. There needs to be a reference point for what endgame is, and then standards need to be set. Most frames, weapons, and mods wouldn't actually need a nerf...but to say that there aren't things that are blatantly broken would be a lie. I feel DE needs to draw a line and actually flesh out the higher level content. They could learn a ton from how scaling of difficulty and rewards is done in Division 2. I don't know what Bungie is doing about endgame, but if it's anything like Division 2, I can see myself playing it more than WF. The lack of challenging content is absolutely killing this game for me (800 hours in), and i'm struggling each day to squeeze out as much as I can from it before I finally quit...WF truly has unique lore, style, and combat mechanics.

I don't know about you, but I find being godlike in warframe is fun and keep in mind you're basically something that stronger than thanos so tell me, what kind of challenge you want when you're a god?

[844448]

On 2019-06-11 at 8:07 PM, Corvid said:

If I were to hazard a guess, either giving certain enemies innate resistance to certain abilities, or add in a mechanic that prevents the current degree of power spam.

nullifier it is

[Knight_Ex]

.........what end game?

[844448]

1 minute ago, Knight_Ex said:

.........what end game?

You know, something that should hard, challenging, etc etc

[Knight_Ex]

2 minutes ago, 844448 said:

You know, something that should hard, challenging, etc etc

.....hard and challenging in warframe? please continue o_o