(MyUnhealthyHobby’s) Ember Rework idea.

[Maka.Bones]

On 2019-10-07 at 4:15 PM, Arcira said:

Maybe. It depends on whether it works because the drawback and permanent attention it requires shouldn´t be underrestimated

It´s not perfect but there are alot of reasons why I´d like to keep it. Here are some examples:

- feels smooth

- good panic button

- debuff is a rare almost unique ability type

- superior to Fire Blast in almost every way

In short: Rather than removing those things from the game I´d like to see them amplified in there purpose and difference to other things like status effects

Don´t get me wrong I really like the new ultimate shown in the dev stream but if I have to choose I prefer the current version.

It´s sad that so many people only see it as lazy or boring. Similar to Accelerant it´s quite a unique mechanic (damage aura) which should be improved rather than abandoned. It could be so much more to the point of a defining playstyle which could even work as her passive. I mean Gauss 4th does passive damage as well but would you consider this boring?

I said that somewhere else already but I don´t need 4 different active skills next to weapons and operator abilities especially if you are ending up with using the most efficient one all the time anyways. Question: with anything you know about the current rework why would you ever consider wasting energy for Fireball or Fire Blast over the new WoF?

 

Spoiler

 

This is really good feedback.

I don't personally have the same thoughts, but I can easily see that this isn't just a niche *theorycrafted* situation. It's just genuine feedback about what you enjoy, what's fun to you, and how you use ember. You're considering the pros, and you're not denying the improvements, but you're explaining what it's lacking when compared to what you used to enjoy about her older kit. 

 

It's not just a "yeah but if you did this one specific thing that most people don't want to do, it would've been superior to this current change" 

It's also not just "yeah but I still don't like it"

 

I think you're providing good clarity as to what's fun to you, and you're also trying to convey what other players similar to you might've enjoyed compared to this kit. 

 

You're not being pessimistic, or totally bashing what DE is trying to accomplish with the new changes. You see what they're doing, but explain what it's missing for you.

 

It's nice to read. 

 

^Arcira gave really good feedback. 

 

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On 2019-10-07 at 3:16 PM, (PS4)chibitonka said:

doesn't feel like i'm playing with fire still. 

as far as that is concerned it's a flop.

Spoiler

 

You can throw a fireball, and create fire storms.... 

1) What isn't "playing with fire" about this? 

2) what do you mean by "playing with fire? what is that for you?

3)How would it have felt like you're playing with fire, outside of your specific suggested build? 

4) If you're just gonna consider it a flop before even trying it, why should devs consider you as the target audience for their improvements and why should they want to listen to you?

Suggestions? 

 

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On 2019-10-07 at 3:30 PM, Teridax68 said:

On 2019-10-07 at 1:29 PM, Maka.Bones said:

The gauge works just fine on Gauss.

Quite a lot of player feedback begs to differ. Putting aside the basic problems with a resource system that pushes the player to bang into walls for no other reason, Gauss's Battery is frequently cited as limiting and restrictive to his gameplay, with the meter on Redline being particularly tedious to charge up with a regular Duration build.

Quote

They didn't integrate it the same way on ember though. 

It is not the literal same resource, but it operates along many of the same mechanisms that were problematic on Gauss, namely what appears to be an emphasis on casting, rather than interacting with enemies. If Ember can manage her resource even when no enemies are around, we are likely to see Ember cast abilities into the ether just for the sake of her new 2.

Spoiler

 

That sounds like it's your own personal opinion... And that's fine. Everyone likes different things, and you can like/dislike whatever suits your fancy. 

 

But if you're going to say "quite a lot of players" then please source some, because the overwhelming majority that I've seen commenting on content creator vids, in twitch streams, and on Facebook, actually enjoy Gauss' mechanics. That just sounds like you're ignoring the overwhelming majority, just to support your own narrative & personal preference. 

Also, you should really play Gauss after the buff. Managing his redline meter isn't at all troublesome anymore. 

 

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On 2019-10-08 at 2:48 AM, ShortCat said:

On 2019-10-07 at 1:14 PM, Maka.Bones said:

On 2019-10-06 at 1:33 PM, Arcira said:

2.) defense/sustain as passive or Fireblast replacement

That's solved with her new 2nd

Ember now has a low effort DR skill, becasue she has less (almost 0) CC in her kit

Spoiler

 

Fire procs cause panic... Panic is a CC effect.... Her entire kit (except her 2) causes fire procs. 

How exactly does she lack CC when 2/4 of her abilities cause panic, and one knocksdown? What kind of CC are you talking about?

 

 

On 2019-10-08 at 2:48 AM, ShortCat said:

On 2019-10-07 at 1:14 PM, Maka.Bones said:

Accelerant's damage bonus is inferior to armor stripping. We won't need the damage bonus, if we can simply remove their armor.  Ember never had an issue dealing with fleshy targets ... She only had issues killing armored enemies. 
Not to mention that accelerant also restricted movement, and had a very short stun duration. Just because it was her only decent ability, doesn't mean it would've actually been good, or necessary within a functional kit. 

There are many ways to deal with Armor, most common one is a status weapon. So when you stripped all Armor from enemies and exposed their flash you would deal massive, like really huge, damage. This statement, that Accelerant is inferior to Armor strip is amateurish, because as stated above, you already can remove armor, but now you cannot scale weapon damage. Movement restrictions can be bypassed with casts while aim-glideing, one of the few skill ceilings in the game.

Spoiler

 

Yes, let's waste a lot of time stripping armor.... Instead of just killing the enemy. If I'm gonna shoot an enemy, I'm gonna shoot to kill. I'm not gonna waste ammo stripping armor, just to see big numbers with fire damage. That's not efficient, and it's what powers should do. 

The only reason ember needs armor stripping is to be effective with her powers. Allowing her to armor strip, means her powers can now kill enemies without you needing to restrict a weapon slot for armor stripping alone. This means you get more freedom with your builds/weapons. 

~~Why shoot the enemy to kill them, when you could waste time getting shot, so you could strip armor, and see huge numbers on the ONE target meanwhile everyone else shoots you. ~~

*Facepalm*

 

On 2019-10-08 at 2:48 AM, ShortCat said:

On 2019-10-07 at 1:21 PM, Maka.Bones said:

Why is that? How is she getting worse now? 

1. No more weapons scaling with Accelerant.
2. Less CC or general utility.
3. Cookie-cutter skill template: 1 passive DR skill, 1 utility skill, 2 damage skills one of which is redundant. Only one dominat playstyle possible, because her skills are full of dependencies. Maybe Augments will salvage her, but I doubt

Spoiler

 

1)Weapons don't need to scale with accelerant. They can already kill enemies just fine, without accelerant. I rarely ever needed to use accelerant, outside of the stun or for ember's WoF. 

2) 3/4 skills proc panic or KD, meaning that 3/4 skills can CC

3) yes, what's wrong with this? She's a new player warframe, like rhino.

Not to mention that it's significantly better than 4 abilities that do different versions of the same thing .... Except for kill high level enemies. 

 

On 2019-10-08 at 2:48 AM, ShortCat said:

On 2019-10-07 at 1:21 PM, Maka.Bones said:

1) fireball will actually have a use/purpose now

To fuel her bong? It will be as usefull as it is now. And nobody noticed that with Fireball Francy you cannot even charge it, not that anybody charges it anyways.

Spoiler

 

It's basically gonna work like saryn's spores, but with a panic proc.

-Mass Crowd control & DoT, which spreads

-mass armor stripping

-increases ember's damage

-grants fire damage bonuses

 

On 2019-10-08 at 2:48 AM, ShortCat said:

On 2019-10-07 at 1:21 PM, Maka.Bones said:

3) on-tap armor stripping

On 2019-10-07 at 1:29 PM, Maka.Bones said:

Oh and fireblast was always a utility CC...  It just wasn't very good at it. 

You could already do it with a weapon and the situation won't change, because you cannot use a 75e ability on every enemy group multiple times.Furthermore, it still is not a good CC, but now its the only one she has. Oh, Joice!

Spoiler

 

A weapon could just simply kill an enemy.... And an an "armor-stripping" weapon can only strip armor from one single target. 

Now ember can do it to *EVERYONE* in the room, instead of restricting a weapon slot... And only stripping one target at a time. 

 

On 2019-10-08 at 2:48 AM, ShortCat said:

On 2019-10-07 at 1:21 PM, Maka.Bones said:

4) her new ult also works as a targetable CC, which leaves behind AoE damage fields.... Meaning it still works for defense and for infested.

With a clear LoS, cast delay and blinding/distracting/overtuned particle effects.

Spoiler

 

Yes. Because not requiring LoS for kills, is frankly unbalanced. 

And WoF/fireblast also had "distracting/overturned" particle effects... Her theme is fire, so it's gonna happen... Your argument isn't holding solid ground here.  Oh and everything has cast delay.

 

On 2019-10-08 at 2:48 AM, ShortCat said:

On 2019-10-07 at 1:21 PM, Maka.Bones said:

Rebbeca was only using 200% power strength, and not even using ember's passives, and she was still destroying the level 200 enemies. 

In a Devbuild, with no information on stats and against Butchers. Call me impressed.

Spoiler

 

Yes the devbuild, which is using the same butchers as the game. 

I'm happy you're colored impressed--you certainly seemed pessimistic. 

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Edit: I'll concede one thing.

1) If the fire proc's armor stripping is tweaked enough to be effective, then an "improved" accelerant/stun which amplifies all damage, would be nice to see. It would also be more welcomed than knocking enemies across the room. However, her announced rework is by no means lacking, or worse than her current kit.

Being restricted to having an "armor stripping" weapon which takes long to strip armor, could just be used to kill an enemy instead--and only strips one single enemy's armor. That isn't a good justification for ember's current kit at all. It also isn't a very good case to criticize this kit either. You're basically just saying that it's broken, and you need to specifically build to make her powers useful.... Instead of her powers simply being useful on their own (which is what the rework would offer)

 

You would've had a better argument/point by simply saying "I just liked the idea/stun of the old accelerant better.

honestly all of this just reminds me of how much slack wukong's rework received, before people actually tried it out. Now he's actually a very popular warframe. I think it's weird that originally many people were suggesting some sort of "heat gauge" for ember.... now suddenly people are against "her fire bong" lol... Im disappointed by how quickly people hate on something, instead of giving it some actual thought and consideration. Why don't you like the "something" or what don't you like about it? 

I.E. What don't you like about the current heat gauge? What would you have preferred?

What did you have in mind with her heat gauge, instead of what she currently has?

Please make some suggestions.

Edited October 9, 2019 by Maka.Bones

[EinheriarJudith]

2 hours ago, Maka.Bones said:

honestly all of this just reminds me of how much slack wukong's rework received, before people actually tried it out. Now he's actually a very popular warframe. I think it's weird that originally many people were suggesting some sort of "heat gauge" for ember.... now suddenly people are against "her fire bong" lol... I really hate how quick people are to hate on something, instead of giving it some actual thought and consideration. 

What don't you like about the current heat gauge? What would you have preferred?

What did you have in mind with her heat gauge, instead of what she currently has?

Please make some suggestions.

as we discussed in other threads i actually like current ember. the heat gauge is just more micromanagement that doesnt need to be there. also it comes with a ridiculous negative. one that i wouldnt take over world on fire's channel drain.

wukong had only one viable skill and that was defy. i was one of the few that didnt speak against his rework. i knew it was going to be good. embers? they removed accelerant for armor strip and DR? but kept fireblast? ridiculous. all i see in embers rework is avoidance. that is what DE is now. "lets avoid having to pay attention to the core problem". its just another and thats sad. add armor strip and DR to the frame design recipe. so fricken stale its unbelievable.

Edited October 9, 2019 by EinheriarJudith

[Teridax68]

7 hours ago, Maka.Bones said:

That sounds like it's your own personal opinion... And that's fine. Everyone likes different things, and you can like/dislike whatever suits your fancy. 

 

But if you're going to say "quite a lot of players" then please source some, because the overwhelming majority that I've seen commenting on content creator vids, in twitch streams, and on Facebook, actually enjoy Gauss' mechanics. That just sounds like you're ignoring the overwhelming majority, just to support your own narrative & personal preference. 

What you're stating is itself your own personal opinion, and this very thread, plus these forums, should be giving you plenty of evidence already supporting my claim. It doesn't feel like you're making this request in good faith, particularly as you yourself have just made up references without giving any examples either (Facebook? really?), and are being met with overwhelming disagreement in your attempts to smother this thread with your white knighting. Even putting aside contests of popular opinion, I have also cited factual characteristics of Gauss's system that we can both agree exist: it is a fact that Gauss's Battery can be charged without interacting at all with enemies, and it is similarly a known fact that Gauss can charge his battery quickly (more quickly than any other means, too) by spamming Mach Rush into walls, regardless of whether or not the intent is to hit anyone.

Quote

Also, you should really play Gauss after the buff. Managing his redline meter isn't at all troublesome anymore. 

But my criticism was never that Gauss's resource management was difficult, and it is disingenuous to frame it that way. My criticism was that charging up his bonus meter felt tedious by many due to how it slowed down with Duration, an issue that persists to this day in spite of the increased charge rate. I've played Gauss after the buff, and activating Redline still requires the player to focus their attention to that bar on the bottom right instead of the rest of the game, which I think is the fundamental problem with any resource management minigame that demands any focus from the player: concentrating on the resource means taking attention away from the game, which causes the resource and the rest of the game to work against each other, at least when the resource is managed independently of interaction with enemies.

Edited October 9, 2019 by Teridax68

[Maka.Bones]

Thank you to the invisible person, whomever compiled my 3 separate posts. Sorry for causing you trouble, if I'm being burdensome.  

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9 hours ago, EinheriarJudith said:

as we discussed in other threads i actually like current ember. the heat gauge is just more micromanagement that doesnt need to be there. also it comes with a ridiculous negative. one that i wouldnt take over world on fire's channel drain.

wukong had only one viable skill and that was defy. i was one of the few that didnt speak against his rework. i knew it was going to be good. embers? they removed accelerant for armor strip and DR? but kept fireblast? ridiculous. all i see in embers rework is avoidance. that is what DE is now. "lets avoid having to pay attention to the core problem". its just another and thats sad. add armor strip and DR to the frame design recipe. so fricken stale its unbelievable.

1) I'm not a fan of our current fireblast either, but the rework's Fireblast isn't the same ability anymore.

Spoiler

It only has the name "fireblast" but it seems to work like an accelerant that strips armor, instead of amplifying heat damage.  The animation was greatly reduced, and it now spreads fire procs. 

2) As far as Armor Strip/DR...  2.1: Heat damage needs a way to bypass or overcome armor; It makes sense to melt armor.  2.2: She originally had DR before any other Warframe; they just nerfed her and removed it (It used to be called overheat) now they're giving it back to her, but it works different than her old overheat. 

Spoiler

Well heat damage needs some form of armor bypass to ever be effective. Even with accelerant, it still didn't allow ember to kill armored enemies with her powers alone.(Needing to use a dedicated weapon to armor strip, is only admitting that her powerkit was ineffective) And ember needs some form of "Damage Mitigation" which was part of her previous issues....

https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Overheat

->What would you prefer to see in terms of damage mitigation, or bypassing enemy armor & heat damage reduction? 

 

But the general gist of what you said about the "heat gauge" makes sense... Let me know if I'm explaining it correctly:

-If the resource wasn't also a threat, but instead optimized or boosted ember, then it wouldn't be something negative(?) (Like Nidus's and Saryn's gauges/counters.)

-But now not only do we have to worry about getting shot and keeping the gauge up, we can't have it up too much or we lose both energy and the DR--which would make us a sitting duck... (?)

So *would you suggest* decreasing the energy consumption, and making it something we can manually trigger instead? Also perhaps allowing her "bong" to give her more interactive buffs/effects than simply just "DR"?? I originally suggested that her damage/efficiency would get boosted, and her powers would get new effects when her heat gauge was full (or beyond a threshold). These new effects would also consume some of the heat gauge. Or what would you suggest instead?

Edited October 9, 2019 by Maka.Bones

[Maka.Bones]

5 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Spoiler

What you're stating is itself your own personal opinion, and this very thread, plus these forums, should be giving you plenty of evidence already supporting my claim. It doesn't feel like you're making this request in good faith, particularly as you yourself have just made up references without giving any examples either (Facebook? really?), and are being met with overwhelming disagreement in your attempts to smother this thread with your white knighting. Even putting aside contests of popular opinion, I have also cited factual characteristics of Gauss's system that we can both agree exist: it is a fact that Gauss's Battery can be charged without interacting at all with enemies, and it is similarly a known fact that Gauss can charge his battery quickly (more quickly than any other means, too) by spamming Mach Rush into walls, regardless of whether or not the intent is to hit anyone.

But my criticism was never that Gauss's resource management was difficult, and it is disingenuous to frame it that way. My criticism was that charging up his bonus meter felt tedious by many due to how it slowed down with Duration, an issue that persists to this day in spite of the increased charge rate. I've played Gauss after the buff, and activating Redline still requires the player to focus their attention to that bar on the bottom right instead of the rest of the game, which I think is the fundamental problem with any resource management minigame that demands any focus from the player: concentrating on the resource means taking attention away from the game, which causes the resource and the rest of the game to work against each other, at least when the resource is managed independently of interaction with enemies.

 

Ok

Edited October 9, 2019 by Maka.Bones

[EinheriarJudith]

2 hours ago, Maka.Bones said:

So *would you suggest* decreasing the energy consumption, and making it something we can manually trigger instead? Also perhaps allowing her "bong" to give her more interactive buffs/effects than simply just "DR"?? I originally suggested that her damage/efficiency would get boosted, and her powers would get new effects when her heat gauge was full (or beyond a threshold). These new effects would also consume some of the heat gauge. Or what would you suggest instead?

she didn't need a way past armor. they need to fix armor scale so people don't need things like x4 CP or armor strip in powers. they need to fix OHKO so people don't need things like 90% DR. adaptation was a bandaid, and they still need to do more about shields.

i heavily dislike the after effect that when gauge is full drains all energy so you have to spam fireblast to not be empty. all it does is force playstyle, and like i said make you micromanage. gauss came with it so i can understand, but ember didn't, and doesn't need it at all.

I, like you, think it should just boost damage and efficiency while also changing the effects of her other skills or be more along the line of Saryn's counter or Nidus's counter. im not a fan of unreliable buffing (wish they would do something about eclipse). atleast with gauss there is no threat of complete loss of damage reduction after redline. their iteration of this heat gauge is pretty much overheat 2.0: gauss edition.

all this move to power spam is just bad. i myself have grown tired of it. i dont craft weapons to not use them.

Edited October 9, 2019 by EinheriarJudith

[Teridax68]

9 minutes ago, EinheriarJudith said:

she didn't need a way past armor. they need to fix armor scale so people don't need things like x4 CP or armor strip in powers. they need to fix OHKO so people don't need things like 90% DR. adaptation was a bandaid, and they still need to do more about shields.

I agree with the entire post, but especially this. It is painfully obvious with both the Ember and Vauban reworks that DE has a serious problem with enemy scaling in Warframe, one they're currently unwilling to address directly, and are instead patching up with band-aids. It's why almost every recent frame has been released with either an armor shred or a means of bypassing armor, as well as some massive durability boost. It's turned frame design fairly repetitive, and I think has also harmed the identity of many frames too: when Ember, the frame known for being the archetypal glass cannon, needs damage reduction just to be able to function, it's clear something is very wrong with the state of the game's balance.

In this respect, I do think the most immediate solutions to be applied should be to prevent armor from scaling at all, as health scaling is already enough, and for enemy damage scaling to be slowed down or even stopped entirely. Personally, I don't think scaling through enemy stats has ever been a functional formula, and instead of making the game more difficult through more powerful enemies, which messes up balance and the game's central power fantasy, we should probably instead look to scale the game's mission conditions, such that they become increasingly tighter as we progress (e.g. faster Life Support drain, reduced objective health in Defense, Mobile Defense, Excavation, etc. missions, and so on). This should also be an opportunity to do a balance pass on our frames, as right now some frames can have hundreds of times more EHP than others, which is obviously not balanceable.

[Maka.Bones]

On 2019-10-09 at 10:24 AM, Teridax68 said:

I think has also harmed the identity of many frames too: when Ember, the frame known for being the archetypal glass cannon, needs damage reduction just to be able to function, it's clear something is very wrong with the state of the game's balance.

She originally started with insane damage reduction. She wasn't a glass cannon, she was a tanky caster, until they nerfed her DR.

She was actually the first warframe to have flat damage reduction in that form. It was her skill "Overheat" which basically worked as a melee-range WoF that also provided DR, and ignored enemy armor. 

https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Overheat

 

So no, they're not hurting her Identity. If anything they're making her more like her original design/intent. 

Edited October 10, 2019 by Maka.Bones

[Teridax68]

40 minutes ago, Maka.Bones said:

She originally started with insane damage reduction. She wasn't a glass cannon, she was a tanky caster, until they nerfed her DR.

She was actually the first warframe to have flat damage reduction in that form. It was her skill "Overheat" which basically worked as a melee-range WoF that also provided DR, and ignored enemy armor. 

https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Overheat

 

So no, they're not hurting her Identity. If anything they're making her more like her original design/intent. 

Well no, because the designers removed that ability specifically because they had chosen to reorient her as a glass cannon. Since then, her survivability has relied on using her CC to disable enemies before they could get to her, rather than straight-up tanking damage. People have asked for the return of Overheat, because every frame started getting 90% damage reduction, which is likely what got her this new DR steroid, but ultimately we're still going from an established glass cannon frame to yet another DR frame, in an environment where glass cannons practically don't exist anymore.

[Maka.Bones]

5 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

Well no, because the designers removed that ability specifically because they had chosen to reorient her as a glass cannon. Since then, her survivability has relied on using her CC to disable enemies before they could get to her, rather than straight-up tanking damage. People have asked for the return of Overheat, because every frame started getting 90% damage reduction, which is likely what got her this new DR steroid, but ultimately we're still going from an established glass cannon frame to yet another DR frame, in an environment where glass cannons practically don't exist anymore.

Yes, they originally removed her identity. now they're trying to reorient her back Into a tanky caster. What they originally intended her to be. 

Edited October 10, 2019 by Maka.Bones

[Teridax68]

1 minute ago, Maka.Bones said:

Yes, they originally removed her identity. now they're trying to reorient her back Into a tanky caster. What they originally intended her to be. 

I'm not sure "intended" was the right word, considering they took away her tankiness precisely because she had too much damage and CC at the time to justify also having massive amounts of durability. Times have changed, and pretty much every new frame is tanky, because that's how they need to be in order to survive in the current meta, which is why she's also getting DR back. Claiming that being a "tanky caster" is her new identity now is jumping the gun a little, and ignores the larger context of how frames have been designed recently, particularly since by that same token Vauban's apparently being turned into a tanky caster with the new Bastille giving him armor.

[EinheriarJudith]

1 hour ago, Teridax68 said:

I'm not sure "intended" was the right word, considering they took away her tankiness precisely because she had too much damage and CC at the time to justify also having massive amounts of durability. Times have changed, and pretty much every new frame is tanky, because that's how they need to be in order to survive in the current meta, which is why she's also getting DR back. Claiming that being a "tanky caster" is her new identity now is jumping the gun a little, and ignores the larger context of how frames have been designed recently, particularly since by that same token Vauban's apparently being turned into a tanky caster with the new Bastille giving him armor.

exactly. they said it in one of the devs streams while talking about overheat that they didnt want her to have DR, then go on to give it back to her lol. avoidance is the name of their game as i said previously. they are slamming DR into frames hoping it will allow them to not look at the core problem.

Edit: a list of frames so we are clear on this.

Gara: launched with DR

Nidus: launched with DR

Mesa: launched with DR

Gauss: launched with DR

Nezha: changed from damage avoidance to DR

Garuda: launched with frontal DR

Trinity: launched with DR

Baruuk: launched with DR

Equinox: launched with DR

 

Edited October 11, 2019 by EinheriarJudith

[Maka.Bones]

On 2019-10-10 at 4:12 PM, Teridax68 said:

I'm not sure "intended" was the right word, considering they took away her tankiness precisely because she had too much damage and CC at the time to justify also having massive amounts of durability. Times have changed, and pretty much every new frame is tanky, because that's how they need to be in order to survive in the current meta, which is why she's also getting DR back. Claiming that being a "tanky caster" is her new identity now is jumping the gun a little, and ignores the larger context of how frames have been designed recently, particularly since by that same token Vauban's apparently being turned into a tanky caster with the new Bastille giving him armor.

 

On 2019-10-10 at 5:19 PM, EinheriarJudith said:

exactly. they said it in one of the devs streams while talking about overheat that they didnt want her to have DR, then go on to give it back to her lol. avoidance is the name of their game as i said previously. they are slamming DR into frames hoping it will allow them to not look at the core problem.

Edit: a list of frames so we are clear on this.

Gara: launched with DR

Nidus: launched with DR

Mesa: launched with DR

Gauss: launched with DR

Nezha: changed from damage avoidance to DR

Garuda: launched with frontal DR

Trinity: launched with DR

Baruuk: launched with DR

Equinox: launched with DR

 

They removed it because not only was she tanky, but her damage used to ignore armor altogether.

 

You also keep ignoring that she's literally the first warframe with DR lol--Rhino just had an armor skin, which provided a separate health bar altogether, but ember got an actual "damage reduction %. I'm not disagreeing that there's some other issue that they should also be looking at, but it doesn't change the fact that it used to be a main staple of Ember's before it was on any other warframe. The reason they didn't want to give ember back her overheat/DR is because she also had WoF at the time and overheat is also basically WoF but at melee range...and it ignores armor. They don't want to make her kill everything by just walking into the enemies, while taking almost zero damage again. Hence why they're making us work for the DR this time. 
 

I'm not saying that DR is my preference for damage mitigation. I would've preferred that she had gotten more mobility, along with some i-frames while casting some abilities & stuns. Or a DR that only worked meanwhile she's doing certain things (which they sorta made it work like this, but not exactly either)...  Though I *am* saying that you just can't truthfully say "they're changing her identity" because that would be false. 

Edited October 16, 2019 by Maka.Bones

[Teridax68]

10 minutes ago, Maka.Bones said:

They removed it, because she used to ignore armor altogether.

But then she didn't, and it wasn't added back until now. Your point?

10 minutes ago, Maka.Bones said:

Also, you continue to ignore that she's literally the first warframe with DR lol. I'm not disagreeing that there's some other issue that they should also be looking at, but it doesn't change the fact that it used to be a main staple of Ember's before anyone else.

But I'm not ignoring this fact, I'm questioning its relevance in this discussion. Sure, Ember started out with DR, then she had it removed, and has spent most of her lifetime now without DR. It thus makes little sense to claim that Ember was meant to be a tank, or even a tanky caster all along. 

10 minutes ago, Maka.Bones said:

The reason they didn't want to give ember overheat/DR is because she also had WoF at the time and overheat is also basically WoF but at melee range.

But that doesn't really make sense, because we're talking about DR here, so if the redundant heat aura was the problem (and given the redundant nature of Fire Blast, it likely wasn't), that wouldn't in itself justify removing the DR as well.

10 minutes ago, Maka.Bones said:

They don't want to make her kill everything by just walking into the enemies, while taking almost zero damage again. Hence why they're making us work for the DR this time. 

And they've specified this... where?

10 minutes ago, Maka.Bones said:

I'm not saying that DR is my preference for damage mitigation. I would've preferred that she had gotten more mobility, along with some iframes while casting some abilities & stuns.  I am saying that you just can't truthfully say "they're changing her identity" because that would be false. 

But it's not false, because Ember up until recently was a glass cannon frame. You claim that I'm ignoring her identity prior to Update 5.whatever, yet you're ignoring her identity since then, and for whichever reason are choosing to stick to one really antiquated past version of her as her One True Identity, while glossing over the identity and gameplay she's had for the longest part of the game's lifespan.

[keikogi]

On 2019-10-09 at 2:24 PM, Teridax68 said:

It's turned frame design fairly repetitive, and I think has also harmed the identity of many frames too: when Ember, the frame known for being the archetypal glass cannon, needs damage reduction just to be able to function, it's clear something is very wrong with the state of the game's balance.

The biggest culprit on the player side of the out of control durability is DE is unwillingness to just load most of the characters durability on flat healh and shields. I don't know why DE likes small healh numbers ( lower than 1k ) but is fine trowing 90% damage reductions like it is candy. Warframe is one of the few games that I look at 50 % damage reduction and think "this skill kinda sucks ". In the end players find ways to stack mutiple DR buffs until they have 200 k effective health , even though they have a total of 2.5 k of combined health and shields. Since warframe durability is complete reliant upon a damage mitigation , if you create a warframe without damage mitigation it will suck.

Edit: the weird doble dipping nature of the armor system also doesn't help , because armor incresing skill can be bypassed by certain enemy types.

Edited October 16, 2019 by keikogi

[Blexander]

Anybody notice that all the threads talking about Ember's rework from the devstream have all mysteriously disappeared?

[EinheriarJudith]

17 minutes ago, Blexander said:

Anybody notice that all the threads talking about Ember's rework from the devstream have all mysteriously disappeared?

i think forum mods are merging them into the dev workshop thread.

[Blexander]

17 minutes ago, EinheriarJudith said:

i think forum mods are merging them into the dev workshop thread.

With no notice or redirection link of any sort?

[EinheriarJudith]

Just now, Blexander said:

With no notice or redirection link of any sort?

this is how it usually happens. someone made a thread about heat procs and while we were having a discussion about them, all of a sudden it merged into the dev workshop thread.

[Blexander]

Just now, EinheriarJudith said:

this is how it usually happens. someone made a thread about heat procs and while we were having a discussion about them, all of a sudden it merged into the dev workshop thread.

That's absurdly chaotic.

[EinheriarJudith]

7 hours ago, Maka.Bones said:

 Though I *am* saying that you just can't truthfully say "they're changing her identity" because that would be false. 

actually they did change her identity. she went from being a fire caster to a heat weapon platform, and now back to fire caster. weapon platform has been her identity far longer than being a fire caster. she may not have launched with it but that is how she became for the majority of her lifetime.

 

[Maka.Bones]

14 hours ago, EinheriarJudith said:

actually they did change her identity. she went from being a fire caster to a heat weapon platform, and now back to fire caster. weapon platform has been her identity far longer than being a fire caster. she may not have launched with it but that is how she became for the majority of her lifetime.

 

That's what I've been saying; they're returning her to her original role of being a "fire caster. She's always been meant to be a fire caster, she just wasn't very good at being one.  btw she will still be able to buff weapon damage, now that her fireball augment works properly. 

[Maka.Bones]

21 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Quote

They don't want to make her kill everything by just walking into the enemies, while taking almost zero damage again. Hence why they're making us work for the DR this time. 

And they've specified this... where?

They literally said this in a devstream, in many different ways.

[Maka.Bones]

21 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

21 hours ago, Maka.Bones said:

They removed it, because she used to ignore armor altogether.

But then she didn't, and it wasn't added back until now. Your point?

Now it doesn't ignore enemy armor, and the damage isn't just a continued AoE effect. Hence now it's not an overpowered "press and forget" ability. 

That's my point. 

[Teridax68]

2 minutes ago, Maka.Bones said:

They literally said this in a devstream, in many different ways.

No, where in the dev stream did they specify that that was the exact tradeoff? You are making things up here.

1 minute ago, Maka.Bones said:

Now it doesn't ignore enemy armor, and the damage isn't just a continued AoE effect. Hence now it's not an overpowered "press and forget" ability. 

That's my point. 

But your point is wrong, again because you are failing to acknowledge the version of Ember that has existed for the longest time. That's my point.

Edited October 16, 2019 by Teridax68