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(MyUnhealthyHobby’s) Ember Rework idea.

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11 hours ago, (PS4)MyUnhealthyHobby said:

Need more augment ideas from you guys/gals. I saw a few that seemed really good so far. 

We might just have to wait at this point. It's hard to suggest anything, without knowing what DE likes/doesn't like, or what direction they want to take with Ember's rework. 

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3 hours ago, Maka.Bones said:

We might just have to wait at this point. It's hard to suggest anything, without knowing what DE likes/doesn't like, or what direction they want to take with Ember's rework. 

I know. I just don’t want to have grey hair, sitting down and watching my grandchildren play it in front of me. It’s hard...

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27 minutes ago, (PS4)MyUnhealthyHobby said:

I know. I just don’t want to have grey hair, sitting down and watching my grandchildren play it in front of me. It’s hard...

that's implying the game lasts that long. At the rate they going at would be surprised if it makes it past 10 years.

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19 hours ago, (PS4)chibitonka said:

that's implying the game lasts that long. At the rate they going at would be surprised if it makes it past 10 years.

Lol, who knows what the future will bring? But it would be beneficial to them if they did listen to our requests every once in awhile. 

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Mind if I post my ideas that I had for reworking her here, or should I make a new thread and link it? 

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1 hour ago, AlouetteSK said:

Mind if I post my ideas that I had for reworking her here, or should I make a new thread and link it? 

I have no issues with it. What did you have in mind? 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, (PS4)MyUnhealthyHobby said:

I have no issues with it. What did you have in mind? 

So my comments were originally a reply to another person's idea of a rework. Props to u/Duke_Ashura for the original reddit thread I commented on.   So apologies if it is a bit mishmashed. Numbers are going to obviously need to be tweaked to make it work: 

One of the main focuses I wanted to idealize for her rework as that she is a glass cannon caster frame. She should be rewarded for risky gameplay, and not just bashed into the ground for her current usage of trash (low-level) sweeps. 

=NEW PASSIVE=
Thermodynamics
"A walking inferno, Ember's temperature rises as she and her allies set enemies alight, making her abilities even hotter to handle."
Inspired by Exploiter Orb, Ember would have an additional UI element and resource; a thermometer above her energy gauge that indicates her current "temperature" in Degrees (Kelvin / Celcius / etc).  Have the passive act as a damage multiplier for heat damage / heat abilities.  The trade off so that people just don't just infinitely stack damage is that after reaching certain temperature ranges you start taking heat damage until you use one of your venting abilities. Make it so that you barely touch the self-damage ranges in regular play, so the min-maxers have something to tinker with, as well as give play to high-risk / high-reward play, in addition to possible team synergy that attempts to keep you alive as you reach melting temperatures.  Also would like an augment that allows you to auto-revive if you get downed (or self immolated) after a certain Temperature threshold, just to keep in line with the whole Fire Bird (phoenix) theme they have going on.  Hek, just reuse Oberon's Phoenix Revival cooldown if you're worried about abusing this mechanic.

=First Ability=
Firebolt
"Of course you should fight fire with fire. You should fight everything with fire."
Make this a two-fold ability with a tap and hold. You tap it to toss a fireball, with a mod possibly turning it into a Napalm Fire Hazard generator as well. Hold would be a new ability allowing her to either stand still or mesa-waltz walk throwing a cone of fire ala ignis.  Both variants of this ability would increase her Temperature. Simple enough, with the mods doing exactly on label; Strength is damage, Efficience costs less energy to cast, Duration for the flamethrower energy, and Range being range.

=Second Ability=
Accelerant
Keep it relatively the same.  She casts this and stuns enemies in a radius as in her original. In addition, have this make Ember sacrifice a percentage of her Temperature (modified by Efficiency), to give a buff (modified by Duration) within range (modified by Range) granting Ember a multiplier for gaining Temperature (modified by Strength), as well as increasing Casting Speed (boosted by Strength) for her and her allies.  Her Augment is modified so that any heat damage they deal while buffed would also increase her Temperature, albeit at a lesser rate compared to herself. This is to prevent her from just letting everyone else do the work, as well as trying to curb trolling by team members trying to intentionally force her to melt to death.  My idea for this is based on my opinion that Harrow's buffs should do the same, because in his case if your team is doing too well, you can't build your buffs properly. 

=Third Ability=
Overdrive
"Drain your temperature to restore your energy."
As a caster, one of the big problems is running out of energy when you throw around abilities willy-nilly (or if you bump into a horde of Parasitic Eximus, but that's neither here nor there). And you really want a caster to be self-dependent, going with the current design paradigm that DE has in place.  Replacing Fire Blast, you would toggle this ability to make her imitate Sargas Ruk's Fire Pillar attack pose, locking her in place and regenerating energy.  This would burn through her Temperature meter. The amount recovered is modified by Strength, the drain rate modified by Efficiency and Duration. As standing still in high level content almost always results in death of a caster, the posing would also give her DR to a certain cap, possibly modified by Strength, and should not be as much one of the tank-frames. Add in a survivability augment that gives her a lingering DR for a certain amount of time after toggling the ability off, and this ability should be good to go.

=Fourth Ability=
World On Fire / Meltdown
Always thought that this one was the most controversial to touch.  First off, get rid of the 0->100% mechanic.  It utterly failed in what it was trying to do, because it does not do enough damage in high-level content, and still melts mooks in low-level.  Instead, turn her ultimate into a two-fold ability.  The first is a tap to toggle. It would cause heat damage (Strength) to enemies in range (Range), and have a chance to proc the fire status on a number of enemies (Strength). Energy should drain at a steady pace (Duration/Efficiency), rather than ramping up like it currently does. Instead, the fire proc chance for CC'ing an enemy is affected by your Temperature, which is dropping based on the number of enemies and the time you spend trying to ignite them. At low Temperature, you only get a very low chance to do so, thus encouraging you to cast more to build up your heat.  And to prevent someone from just popping pizzas at the start of the mission and just speedrunning the whole thing (aka what they were trying to prevent in the first place), disable the ability at base temperature / when you reach base temperature, so you actually have to put in a bit of work to actually play her, as opposed to her one-and-done-run-and-gun playstyle. Obviously Overdrive and World On Fire will not work simultaneously. Firequake augment should be tweaked to ensure knockdown of targets proc'd and a certain range of enemies near the suddenly combusted ones. I mean, you would also freak out and possibly fall on your butt if your buddy over there had a case of spontaneous combustion. Only possible tweak on this would be LoS, but that's a whole can of worms I don't want to touch.
Now for her end-game, add an additional ability to this, where you hold down 4, then she vents all her Temperature back to base, doing a similar (or the same) pose as her original 3. On release, reusing assets she does the expanding ring of fire from her original 3 (though tweaked for more visual appeal) that does damage (Strength only) to enemies. Now Temperature comes into play by melting through enemy Armor depending on how much Temperature got consumed.  So essentially a concentrated burst spell.

Might be a bit much for a caster frame, but trying to encourage ability usage without going overboard. Only concerns is the sudden loss of everything during a Host Migration, as well as how Ember's abilities / passive interacts with a nullifier (hate these things so much, but a necessary evil to combat Tenno superpowers).

Edited by AlouetteSK
Extra augment description. Edited to reduce/prevent AFK playing.
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21 hours ago, (PS4)MyUnhealthyHobby said:

Lol, who knows what the future will bring? But it would be beneficial to them if they did listen to our requests every once in awhile. 

They do, it just takes them a really long time to introduce/implement them. 

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2 hours ago, AlouetteSK said:

So my comments were originally a reply to another person's idea of a rework. Props to u/Duke_Ashura for the original reddit thread I commented on.   So apologies if it is a bit mishmashed. Numbers are going to obviously need to be tweaked to make it work: 

One of the main focuses I wanted to idealize for her rework as that she is a glass cannon caster frame. She should be rewarded for risky gameplay, and not just bashed into the ground for her current usage of trash (low-level) sweeps. 

=NEW PASSIVE=
Thermodynamics
"A walking inferno, Ember's temperature rises as she and her allies set enemies alight, making her abilities even hotter to handle."
Inspired by Exploiter Orb, Ember would have an additional UI element and resource; a thermometer above her energy gauge that indicates her current "temperature" in Degrees (Kelvin / Celcius / etc).  Have the passive act as a damage multiplier for heat damage / heat abilities.  The trade off so that people just don't just infinitely stack damage is that after reaching certain temperature ranges you start taking heat damage until you use one of your venting abilities. Make it so that you barely touch the self-damage ranges in regular play, so the min-maxers have something to tinker with, as well as give play to high-risk / high-reward play, in addition to possible team synergy that attempts to keep you alive as you reach melting temperatures.  Also would like an augment that allows you to auto-revive if you get downed (or self immolated) after a certain Temperature threshold, just to keep in line with the whole Fire Bird (phoenix) theme they have going on.  Hek, just reuse Oberon's Phoenix Revival cooldown if you're worried about abusing this mechanic.

=First Ability=
Firebolt
"Of course you should fight fire with fire. You should fight everything with fire."
Make this a two-fold ability with a tap and hold. You tap it to toss a fireball, with a mod possibly turning it into a Napalm Fire Hazard generator as well. Hold would be a new ability allowing her to either stand still or mesa-waltz walk throwing a cone of fire ala ignis.  Both variants of this ability would increase her Temperature. Simple enough, with the mods doing exactly on label; Strength is damage, Efficience costs less energy to cast, Duration for the flamethrower energy, and Range being range.

=Second Ability=
Accelerant
Keep it relatively the same.  She casts this and stuns enemies in a radius as in her original. In addition, have this make Ember sacrifice a percentage of her Temperature (modified by Efficiency), to give a buff (modified by Duration) within range (modified by Range) granting Ember a multiplier for gaining Temperature (modified by Strength), as well as increasing Casting Speed (boosted by Strength) for her and her allies.  Her Augment is modified so that any heat damage they deal while buffed would also increase her Temperature, albeit at a lesser rate compared to herself. This is to prevent her from just letting everyone else do the work, as well as trying to curb trolling by team members trying to intentionally force her to melt to death.  My idea for this is based on my opinion that Harrow's buffs should do the same, because in his case if your team is doing too well, you can't build your buffs properly. 

=Third Ability=
Overdrive
"Drain your temperature to restore your energy."
As a caster, one of the big problems is running out of energy when you throw around abilities willy-nilly (or if you bump into a horde of Parasitic Eximus, but that's neither here nor there). And you really want a caster to be self-dependent, going with the current design paradigm that DE has in place.  Replacing Fire Blast, you would toggle this ability to make her imitate Sargas Ruk's Fire Pillar attack pose, locking her in place and regenerating energy.  This would burn through her Temperature meter. The amount recovered is modified by Strength, the drain rate modified by Efficiency and Duration. As standing still in high level content almost always results in death of a caster, the posing would also give her DR to a certain cap, possibly modified by Strength, and should not be as much one of the tank-frames. Add in a survivability augment that gives her a lingering DR for a certain amount of time after toggling the ability off, and this ability should be good to go.

=Fourth Ability=
World On Fire / Meltdown
Always thought that this one was the most controversial to touch.  First off, get rid of the 0->100% mechanic.  It utterly failed in what it was trying to do, because it does not do enough damage in high-level content, and still melts mooks in low-level.  Instead, turn her ultimate into a two-fold ability.  The first is a tap to toggle. It would cause heat damage (Strength) to enemies in range (Range), and have a chance to proc the fire status on a number of enemies (Strength). Energy should drain at a steady pace (Duration/Efficiency), rather than ramping up like it currently does. Instead, the fire proc chance for CC'ing an enemy is affected by your Temperature, which is dropping based on the number of enemies and the time you spend trying to ignite them. At low Temperature, you only get a very low chance to do so, thus encouraging you to cast more to build up your heat.  And to prevent someone from just popping pizzas at the start of the mission and just speedrunning the whole thing (aka what they were trying to prevent in the first place), disable the ability at base temperature / when you reach base temperature, so you actually have to put in a bit of work to actually play her, as opposed to her one-and-done-run-and-gun playstyle. Obviously Overdrive and World On Fire will not work simultaneously. Firequake augment should be tweaked to ensure knockdown of targets proc'd and a certain range of enemies near the suddenly combusted ones. I mean, you would also freak out and possibly fall on your butt if your buddy over there had a case of spontaneous combustion. Only possible tweak on this would be LoS, but that's a whole can of worms I don't want to touch.
Now for her end-game, add an additional ability to this, where you hold down 4, then she vents all her Temperature back to base, doing a similar (or the same) pose as her original 3. On release, reusing assets she does the expanding ring of fire from her original 3 (though tweaked for more visual appeal) that does damage (Strength only) to enemies. Now Temperature comes into play by melting through enemy Armor depending on how much Temperature got consumed.  So essentially a concentrated burst spell.

Might be a bit much for a caster frame, but trying to encourage ability usage without going overboard. Only concerns is the sudden loss of everything during a Host Migration, as well as how Ember's abilities / passive interacts with a nullifier (hate these things so much, but a necessary evil to combat Tenno superpowers).

Not bad. I noticed that a lot of people want to give Ember some form of heat gauge that she could pull resources from. I personally stuck to stacking mechanics but a bar above the stacks wouldn’t hurt I guess.

You could definitely take a few things from your Rework and hope that DE would use it but there are some things that might be a bit impossible.

However, Burning through enemy armor is a popular demand as well so I could very much see that becoming a reality for Ember. Not sure if Fireball or World on Fire will still be in her kit after her next Rework. We will have to see what will happen in that regard. 

 

I give you a good score. You even made augments and that’s not easy. There are some hidden gems in here. 

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I'd really like to see ember get an augment to remove hers and her teammates "status effects" since she can burn them away when superheating the air

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would rather not keep supporting a bad system by feeding it more ideas. They need to make sure the stuff has everything it needs at the get go instead of just put a patch onto it.

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1 hour ago, Maka.Bones said:

I'd really like to see ember get an augment to remove hers and her teammates "status effects" since she can burn them away when superheating the air

 

42 minutes ago, (PS4)chibitonka said:

would rather not keep supporting a bad system by feeding it more ideas. They need to make sure the stuff has everything it needs at the get go instead of just put a patch onto it.

In case you were referring to me/my comment, I'm not talking about "world on fire"

I'm talking about her thematic lore/design (she gets her "heat" abilities by superheating the air, and combusting it/turning it into plasma or w/e)

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3 hours ago, Maka.Bones said:

 

In case you were referring to me/my comment, I'm not talking about "world on fire"

I'm talking about her thematic lore/design (she gets her "heat" abilities by superheating the air, and combusting it/turning it into plasma or w/e)

no. i was talking about his comment regarding ideas for augments lmao. down with that system.

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Ember's passive is great! Her powers just need to light her on fire, and if we really want to, her energy regen should work during channel.

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1 minute ago, cookieknife said:

Ember's passive is great! Her powers just need to light her on fire, and if we really want to, her energy regen should work during channel.

Yeah it can work, I've always said get rid of the stupid fireball charging leaving a floating LoS blocking ball of fire and make it work more like the cat lady molotovs.

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3 minutes ago, Andaius said:

Yeah it can work, I've always said get rid of the stupid fireball charging leaving a floating LoS blocking ball of fire and make it work more like the cat lady molotovs.

The way I used to use ember's passive was, -dmg + status duration Javlok riven, They removed self dmg on javlok's primary, so its now secura penta + napalm grenades + cautious shot. I've got 18 seconds with my riven and continuous misery. It's really nice, but her kit still lacks, I need 3 augments to find use, because she has no defense, not enough dmg, so its just a struggle of falling back on firequake and my allie's .

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34 minutes ago, cookieknife said:

The way I used to use ember's passive was, -dmg + status duration Javlok riven, They removed self dmg on javlok's primary, so its now secura penta + napalm grenades + cautious shot. I've got 18 seconds with my riven and continuous misery. It's really nice, but her kit still lacks, I need 3 augments to find use, because she has no defense, not enough dmg, so its just a struggle of falling back on firequake and my allie's .

He theme really is all about offensive power. So I really didn't think she needs more then good ol WoF CC really. The previous WoF was perfectly suited to do this job and didn't need it's nerf.

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Look at nidus' first abilitiy... Much more dmg capability than anything in her kit. She's all about offense that requires debuff but she doesn't have any at her disposal. She sacrifices defense of any kind for offense, but fails at offense. Try using ember against infested.. It's a combo that should work, but doesn't at all. They have resistance to her fire through ancients and eximus... She's okay at trash mobs but I fail to see her being of use without her augments.

I really used to like ember back in the day, her concept is still cool, her powers look cool, but they don't do enough. 

I really dont think she's good for offense really, she falls off, I call her a CC warframe because every other wf based around dmg outclasses her.

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Posted (edited)
52 minutes ago, cookieknife said:

The way I used to use ember's passive was, -dmg + status duration Javlok riven, They removed self dmg on javlok's primary, so its now secura penta + napalm grenades + cautious shot. I've got 18 seconds with my riven and continuous misery.

I never understood the mentality of building a loadout over, and defending, a passive that isn't even worth the effort to proc.

I'm gonna be thorough on this one:

What's the point of suffering from a Heat status effect and DoT?

Point: You get energy/s from it.
Counter point: 1. Zenurik does it better for free, let's you be immune to damage and can be easily recast (again, free of charge)
                        2. WoF is a toggle ability, meaning it stops energy regen during.

Point: 35% increased Power Strength.
Counter point: The Strength buff isn't worth it because:

  • Fireball isn't worth casting.
  • Accelarant, despite being her only good skill, only affects Heat damage.
  • Fire Blast's has a non-scaling 50% bonus Heat damage applied to bullets shot through it's ring.
  • WoF has a scaling Status proc chance, meaning you proc the weakest DoT more often than not.

 

52 minutes ago, cookieknife said:

I need 3 augments to find use, because she has no defense, not enough dmg, so its just a struggle of falling back on firequake and my allie's

I'd also like to add that she has minimal, and often counter intuitive CC (i.e. Fire Blast cancels Accelarant's ministun and Heat proc panic; Firequake loses effectiveness from the range decrease), minimal ally buffing and support (only boosts/adds Heat damage).

This has been said time and time again, but a lot of her issues stem from Heat damage being horrible, but the majority of the blame still falls on her outdated, wonky and weak kit.

16 minutes ago, Andaius said:

He theme really is all about offensive power. So I really didn't think she needs more then good ol WoF CC really. The previous WoF was perfectly suited to do this job and didn't need it's nerf.

Here's the thing, there was a MASSIVE, and by MASSIVE I mean, UNNOTICEABLE, outcry from the community, because she trivialized certain low-mid level mission. You could go to a lvl30 exterminate mission, run to the exit, and not fire your weapons once.

I can understand why DE doesn't like "toggle and forget about it" abilities, but her current WoF is a blatant joke. It's hypocritical as well, because we have frames that trivialize high level content, and I don't see anybody having an issue with them.

Edited by Blexander
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4 minutes ago, Blexander said:

 

Her passive is great, ember being able to take fire damage isnt though. Why does a warframe that is onfire take fire dmg at all? If her powers could light her on fire her passive would be good. It's cool to abuse the passive but it has no use, giving it a use is cool but its not practical.

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Posted (edited)
9 minutes ago, Blexander said:

Here's the thing, there was a MASSIVE, and by MASSIVE I mean, UNNOTICEABLE, outcry from the community, because she trivialized certain low-mid level mission. You could go to a lvl30 exterminate mission, run to the exit, and not fire your weapons once.

I can understand why DE doesn't like "toggle and forget about it" abilities, but her current WoF is a blatant joke. It's hypocritical as well, because we have frames that trivialize high level content, and I don't see anybody having an issue with them.

Try doing the meme build, you know max eff and range, low damage. It does the same thing. Even with the reduction in range you have such a big increase it would work like range 145% or so. stuff level 30 or lower are so weak it will kill them all the same pretty much even with reduced damage. Hell the 100% bonus overheat just helps it out more!

So yeah the "revision" to fix the low end farm was 75% range nerf, double energy consumption and double damage at melee range.  So it didn't stop meme build afk and speed farmers on low level mission, and it absolutely killed any chance she has for constent CC in the mid to end game WoF.  Not worth it at all.

Edited by Andaius

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3 minutes ago, cookieknife said:

Her passive is great, ember being able to take fire damage isnt though. Why does a warframe that is onfire take fire dmg at all? If her powers could light her on fire her passive would be good. It's cool to abuse the passive but it has no use, giving it a use is cool but its not practical.

Her passive is bad with her current kit, and in general. A "DPS" frame shouldn't have to deal damage to itself to gain energy, unless it can sustain itself through it's stats or skills that help sustain them. Garuda works like this and she's a great frame because of it.

That's not how elemental frames were intended to work. And this has also been discussed to death. Ember isn't on fire (despite what the Prime looks like), she controls fire. Frost isn't made of ice, he controls it.

There is no reason to give elemental frames a resistance/immunity to their respective elements from a gameplay perspective.

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8 hours ago, Blexander said:

Her passive is bad with her current kit, and in general. A "DPS" frame shouldn't have to deal damage to itself to gain energy, unless it can sustain itself through it's stats or skills that help sustain them. Garuda works like this and she's a great frame because of it.

That's not how elemental frames were intended to work. And this has also been discussed to death. Ember isn't on fire (despite what the Prime looks like), she controls fire. Frost isn't made of ice, he controls it.

There is no reason to give elemental frames a resistance/immunity to their respective elements from a gameplay perspective.

her passive = her on fire, like i said, if her abilities lit her on fire, her passive would be great.

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