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DE needs to chill with the grind!


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those cosmetics you have no idea how many months they were already in development.

I literally could not care less about cosmetics at this point, especially tennogen where actual developers have to do little to NOTHING to get profit off of it and instead of just quickly showing it of and announcing the date, STILL have to drag 20 minutes of devstream for it.

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 tennogen is player created items, but guess what those players set a baseline blueprint of the item an DE staff has to work to make the models an stuff for it.

And guess what?

NONE of those work on GAMEPLAY ITSELF, NONE of them make game design decisions, NONE of thsi is related to making the actual gameplay better or justify wasting devstreams time on it.

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2. Do you really think that it's a good diea to bring up Excal Prime? Do you want me to derail this thread because of your post? Then let's go for it.

You can bring whatever the hell you want, case in point cosmetics in this game worth way more than actual things because newsflash, you can buy most weapons on market -including wolf sledge you can buy from players - or from other players, cosmetics like saturn mask or certain sigils and other cosmetics you can only get from godawful rng.

And in case of those prime reskins, yes, you could also just buy them. Straight up buy. Any prime reskin you wnat you can buy,aside from one. In case of that particular reskin, it costed quite a lot of money but it was buyable nontheless, the only difference for a limited time.

No one would have died if mask dropped as a set reward for x wolves killed or after turning in x tokens STILL people fight that those trash and garbage drop chances are "somehow" justified just because they either didnt care or got it in liek 10 runs. And those people are simple hypocrites. And they have the nerve to say "it doesnt matter" while the literally bought like what it was 50, 100, 150 or more $ worth skin. Yes. Cosmetics totally dont matter. No double standards here, no siri.

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4. Just for the lolz: My Excalibur Prime is better than any Excalibur you will ever get. ^^

Of course it costed an arm and a leg so I woudl imagine that stripped skin is a new hot right now.

Edited by -Temp0-
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There are two different people who play this game: those that believe the farm is the main draw of the game, and those who want quick access to being a well equipped space ninja. Warframe is bad on the loot. It's hard to remember anything close to it, though I do remember trying to get Thunderfury on my Death Knight in World of Warcraft. I did it every week for about a year and never got it, but it was only about an hour each week of disappointment, rather than 12 hours a day of disappointing life wasting. There is no actual excuse for the loot system in this game. It has never even got a second glance every time something is added. The reason it exists as current is because it is in fact a little more difficult than giving everything a 100% drop chance because if you do that wrong you get Nightwave. There has to be some effort involved in getting a desired reward. The amount of effort is in huge disconnect between the developers and the players here. RNG is always worse than guaranteed rewards because the time to farm RNG rewards is always arbitrary. Even with a 0.1% drop chance you can in fact see it drop twice in a row, or like most never see it happen at all. Removing RNG only removes the very brief excitement at the moment of receiving the reward. Most people leave it at "Finally" as their commentary. That is exactly how excited they feel. Making sure rewards happen in a decent time frame becomes the difficulty of a guaranteed system like Nightwave. Should it take you a day to farm an Orokin Reactor, or a week? Should it take you a day to farm an Aura, or a week? Is it really a reasonable investment to spend months of efforts to unlock a single particular polarity on just one of your items? DE proves equally inept here. The stress though, is it is very difficult to get right. The longer you keep someone trying for a reward, the longer they play. Until they hit a breaking point like the OP where the notion is a reason to quit the entire game. Finding the sweet spot is like designing a proper Sonic, too much of anything can be devastating to the whole system. 

Edited by F8ted
interesting extra words struck from my text
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29 minutes ago, (PS4)thowed said:

You should see the bs Destiny 2 makes people do to get a certain gun, only to nerf it when the people who didn't grind for it complain.

It took me 6 months to get the Hawk Moon and 9 months to get the Monte Carlo in Destiny 1, there's an example of a game I left for BS RNG and I hate how people seem to think I want to get loot with no challenge. All I'm asking is that the be loot worth the effort and make it to where I don't have to glue my ass to my gaming chair and never be able to see the sun again.

Edited by (PS4)Bug-Slayer07
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6 minutes ago, (XB1)The Neko Otaku said:

That's pretty normal RNG and there's games that do it worse 

I'm just gonna quite myself here, saving you the time to read the thread further than the post you seeming found objectionable.

1 hour ago, Ced23Ric said:

Look, I know you're feeling really cool over there after grinding Lineage II for three years to finally get the S-tier staff for your dark elf monk with the curves-revealing robe, but DE have said, themselves, that they are aware that current drop rates for certain items are too low and too frustrating and will raise them in the near future. Not wanting 2% doesn't mean asking for guaranteed drops, but nice strawman.

Dunno about you, but I use my operator all the time. Be it for fast traversal, spy, Eidolons, energy supply, what have you, the operator can be a great tool, if you took the time to invest into focus and amps. And since I use the operator a lot, I also painted and dressed my operator up, because this is a multiplayer game, and personal expression is part of the gameplay loop. "It's just cosmetics" is a fallacy. It's a cop-out. And it's not about how often I look at my operator, it's about how often others look at my operator. That's the core essence of fashion frame here. Otherwise, we'd all run around in basic color frames without attachments, and no one would care about Ephemera. But since this is an MMO, and personal expression is part of the gameplay loop, from effort, to resources, to rewards, the mask is, like any other item, like a gun, like a warframe, part of the gameplay and not "just a cosmetic".

I have the mask, by the way. In case this is some elitist bullcarp about not wanting to "put in the effort". I did my 56 runs of Wolfie, and I got the mask. And I'm still saying 2% is too low - and DE knows it. Getting in my face about any of this is pointless, when the developer has already acknowledged this and will improve drop chances in the future. 

Two wrongs don't make a right. The failures of others don't validate our own. I don't care if you've been accustomed to living in a Stockholm syndrome relationship of an abused spouse with developers slapping you across the face with low drop percentages, 2% isn't okay, and DE agrees. So you can go back to Korean lifetime vacuum 3.0: Mysteries of Boob Physics - The Jiggling, I'll be over here, saying my two credits on how 2% drop chance is unrewarding and grueling.

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1 hour ago, -Temp0- said:

Of course.

Like those sweet sweet cosmetics they keep popping as hot pankaces and never too busy to not discuss them for 20 minutes straight on devstream but always too busy to discuss an actual GAMEPLAY.

You're the one who doesnt know shts about it, everything you listed goes to DIFFERENT depatments and it takes only ONE person to actually bring the topic of token that is both DISGUSTINGLY easy and quick to implement, community manager, but she as the rest of the of the oh so good crew wastes time with supid questions on devstream like when the next tennogen round is coming up, when we will get hydroid prime trailer and when the next deluxe is coming out instead of asking a single freaking guestion, when they will ADD BLOODY TOKENS YOU EVEN HAVE IT IN UGLY FORM FOR ARBITRATION HOWS YOUR MEMORY THAT SHORT.

It absolutely is not, it does SAME BLOODY THINGS AS A REGULAR EXCALIBUR, its the same freaking warframe like any other prime warframes, its a literal reskin.

And no one cares about a couple k of additional mastery.

Uhhh....dude...

They tried "tokens".  They had "Wolf Creds".  And people lost their collective s***.  Sooooo no, it's not the perfect solution.

RNG rewards are the carrot on the proverbial stick to MOTIVATE people to continually play... You're all asking them to cut the stick shorter, give a bigger carrot, and ya know what?  Why not just insert the carrot DIRECTLY into your mouth FOR you after you've run x distance, because....you're bored?

Come on, man... Then people just grind harder, get their "tokens", get all the "things" they want almost immediately, and boom..there's nothing left to do (because you can't out-dev the players' consumption of content), and people leave/complain.

I love all the armchair devs we have around here that swear their ideas are 'perfect'.  If so, go develop a better game than Warframe and prove it.  Otherwise, assume DE saw your suggestion and chose not to do it ANYWAY .   Should tell ya something....

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15 minutes ago, Ced23Ric said:

I'm just gonna quite myself here, saving you the time to read the thread further than the post you seeming found objectionable.

Two wrongs don't make a right. The failures of others don't validate our own. I don't care if you've been accustomed to living in a Stockholm syndrome relationship of an abused spouse with developers slapping you across the face with low drop percentages, 2% isn't okay, and DE agrees. So you can go back to Korean lifetime vacuum 3.0: Mysteries of Boob Physics - The Jiggling, I'll be over here, saying my two credits on how 2% drop chance is unrewarding and grueling.

What's wrong with 2%?  You telling me that you're not likely to fight the Wolf over the course of 12+ weeks at LEAST 50 times?  because 2% = 1/50 chance.  Granted it's not guaranteed, but I mean...it's equally possible to get what you need on the first drop.  I've done it, personally, even.

So 2% is fine.  They clearly want us  to play more, and the longer it takes to get our carrot on the stick, the longer we tend to run the race.  Some will stop running...that's fine, this race isn't for them, clearly.  Can't please everyone, and shouldn't try.  That's a guaranteed way to fail in any business.

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1 minute ago, (PS4)Taishin_Ishu said:

Uhhh....dude...

They tried "tokens".  They had "Wolf Creds".  And people lost their collective s***.  Sooooo no, it's not the perfect solution.

RNG rewards are the carrot on the proverbial stick to MOTIVATE people to continually play... You're all asking them to cut the stick shorter, give a bigger carrot, and ya know what?  Why not just insert the carrot DIRECTLY into your mouth FOR you after you've run x distance, because....you're bored?

Come on, man... Then people just grind harder, get their "tokens", get all the "things" they want almost immediately, and boom..there's nothing left to do (because you can't out-dev the players' consumption of content), and people leave/complain.

I love all the armchair devs we have around here that swear their ideas are 'perfect'.  If so, go develop a better game than Warframe and prove it.  Otherwise, assume DE saw your suggestion and chose not to do it ANYWAY .   Should tell ya something....

the idea of perfection is boredom in disguise. Anyone saying their stuff is perfect should lose all credibility.

True there's alot of those types. Like probably 1/4 the forum posts are rework ideas/frame or weapon ideas. 

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8 minutes ago, (PS4)chibitonka said:

the idea of perfection is boredom in disguise. Anyone saying their stuff is perfect should lose all credibility.

True there's alot of those types. Like probably 1/4 the forum posts are rework ideas/frame or weapon ideas. 

The Issue I see with the majority of these "rework ideas" from people..is they're just so obviously unaware of the concept of "balance".  

"We should have a boss that's relatively easy to kill but drops a weapon that does, like, all the types of damage,  but also has crit, but also we should get infinite bp of Forma and never have to farm again, and we should get a frame that buffs itself and debuffs enemies and is invincible forever.... That'd be the best content!"

"We should have prime amalgum dual stat super umbra mods! ..... Also, enemies need to be tougher."

Like, I'm exaggerating the wording, but just barely.  I LITERALLY read posts that suggested these ideas -today-.  That's not okay, and the fact that so many on the forums don't see what's wrong with those kinds of ideas ... Well, that should suggest that maybe many here are not as "qualified" to tell DE how to do their jobs as they might believe themselves to be.

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1 hour ago, (PS4)Taishin_Ishu said:

The Issue I see with the majority of these "rework ideas" from people..is they're just so obviously unaware of the concept of "balance".  

"We should have a boss that's relatively easy to kill but drops a weapon that does, like, all the types of damage,  but also has crit, but also we should get infinite bp of Forma and never have to farm again, and we should get a frame that buffs itself and debuffs enemies and is invincible forever.... That'd be the best content!"

"We should have prime amalgum dual stat super umbra mods! ..... Also, enemies need to be tougher."

Like, I'm exaggerating the wording, but just barely.  I LITERALLY read posts that suggested these ideas -today-.  That's not okay, and the fact that so many on the forums don't see what's wrong with those kinds of ideas ... Well, that should suggest that maybe many here are not as "qualified" to tell DE how to do their jobs as they might believe themselves to be.

lmfao sad but true i've seen plenty of those "reworks" it's mind numbing x:

Like they don't even try to put any thought forth before typing such idiocy. 

Any idiot can put together a half brained idea up, but odds are they won't think up ways to prevent abuse, spamming, making the game way too easy etc. Best ones i've seen try to keep balance in mind with some form of limitations that are subtle to encourage varied gameplay. Instead of helicoptering.

The latter is kind of hard though when let's be honest the games sense of difficulty is almost farmville easy so that one is kinda a free pass. Since the enemies would be much harder if the ai was changed up to be more organic and vicious. Like nightmare mode was a good direction but they just forgot it exists at this point. Sortie tries to pick up at this but even then x: 

Enemies that could do finishers on the player, keep them on their toes etc. Make them feel like they are more of a threat instead of just another minion ppl weedwhack to death.

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@Taishin_Ishu and @(PS4)chibitonka those are meta complaints and against forum rules. Not that this is the best example of a constructive thread but these comments will get it shut down. People are free to post what they believe is a good rework of any system in game. You are free to offer criticism to that design and defend the original. People cannot make a thread universally declaring that every system in the game is terrible. You cannot make comments declaring that people are terrible at making redesigns. Sure, it is difficult even for the paid professionals at DE to design a perfect game. Your comments are however not helping and disrupt the flow of actual discussion. It is fairly reasonable to be frustrated after this level of recorded effort in finding a single cosmetic piece in a game. It is not without precedent, but those also got their share of complaints. The middle ground is in fact what DE is aiming for, but it's a lot easier to keep things as they are than make any sort of redesign. Look at the melee redesign (2.999999), many people are bothered by various inconveniences that are very niche to certain examples. Exalted weapons became a little stranger, and you can no longer hover with your sword drawn. Small things that have nothing to do with the end intent, but are often times infuriating to a small sample of players. When a redesign happens, it is not necessarily to preserve the base system, but to improve it. Since many have a different opinion on what improves a system, it is difficult to find a sweet spot. 

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I agree.... but.... you know.... they won't....

I've seen players without boosters grind Kuva for over 50 Rolls... the fact that players have no issues or complaints justifying this basically guarantees DE isn't going to do anything about it...

And the Grinding memes continue. 

backtothegrind.jpg

This is Warframe's Legacy.... 

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I don't like the 1% to 2% drop rates in tables behind massive grinds just to get to them....

 

I don't want to run countless POE bounties...They make me want to play other games...So it would nice if they would drop said rewards into other ventures...Why can't I get a Lens from Lua's Pavlov or Pluto's spy mission...And then there's Kuva from a Kuva Survival found on one map over and over and over? It's okay, have Kuva Survival appear in the Void or Jupiter..you know maps that are actually fun to move around it...

There's just too many farms to try to manage as it is....all of them lost in the clutter of the star map, open worlds, events, and quests...

I have been running Arbitration for Aura Forma and gosh dang it's not that great of a reward for it to be that rare...I'm now just finding spots to wait out the clock because I feel why do I have to work so hard for another batch of Ayatan Sculptures? The rewards are lazy... so why do I have to be Johnny hero in this mode?

But oh well....There's just no other option I want to play at the moment...so..back to Arbitration and 1% RNG fatigue... 

Edited by (PS4)FriendSharkey
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I would certainly welcome DE increasing drop chance of rare items on Stalker/Wolf.

As for farming the Wolf 300 times....I don't know if I should be impressed or concerned. At what point does your commitment and dedication become an uncontrolled obsession? 300 times over the weekend? It is no wonder you are frustrated. I hope DE fixes the drop chance, but at the same time, why did you do this to yourself? It's your life and what you do with it isn't my concern, but have you taken a step back and assessed if this game has turned from a fun hobby into an unhealthy addiction? I've been there, many times and without even realizing it. Some people struggle with not spending too much money on loot boxes, but for me, I struggle with not spending too much time grinding on low drop chances. I'm self aware of it, and like me, maybe you should try setting goals to restrict yourself a little. What if you didn't get it at 300? Did you have a plan? Or were you just going to keep going endlessly until you got it? Remember, you should be the one playing the game, not the other way around. I do hope DE fixes the drop chance, but we also need to hold ourselves accountable for how we spend our time.

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9 hours ago, F8ted said:

@Taishin_Ishu and @(PS4)chibitonka those are meta complaints and against forum rules. Not that this is the best example of a constructive thread but these comments will get it shut down

 Oooh, promise? 😄

 

9 hours ago, F8ted said:

.People are free to post what they believe is a good rework of any system in game. You are free to offer criticism to that design and defend the original. People cannot make a thread universally declaring that every system in the game is terrible. You cannot make comments declaring that people are terrible at making redesigns. Sure, it is difficult even for the paid professionals at DE to design a perfect game. Your comments are however not helping and disrupt the flow of actual discussion. It is fairly reasonable to be frustrated after this level of recorded effort in finding a single cosmetic piece in a game. It is not without precedent, but those also got their share of complaints. The middle ground is in fact what DE is aiming for, but it's a lot easier to keep things as they are than make any sort of redesign. Look at the melee redesign (2.999999), many people are bothered by various inconveniences that are very niche to certain examples. Exalted weapons became a little stranger, and you can no longer hover with your sword drawn. Small things that have nothing to do with the end intent, but are often times infuriating to a small sample of players. When a redesign happens, it is not necessarily to preserve the base system, but to improve it. Since many have a different opinion on what improves a system, it is difficult to find a sweet spot. 

If you feel our discussion, on General Discussion, is a violation of rules, feel free to report it.

But I don't see how you think it's okay to have people blasting and demonizing DE and the game, but when we critique THEIR ideas, it's "illegal and wrong".  That's not right, bud...

There is not "flow to discussion".  It's a bunch of angry mobs at this point demanding everything be made easier for no reason.

They want the rewards without putting any effort into it.  They complain about RNG which is the FAIREST way to deal things out because everyone has the same odds of getting it.  The game has never said it would remain the same, and in fact it points out that it is CONSTANTLY under development and therefore is always prone to change.  Anyone who gets surprised by that after putting hundreds of hours into it, well...that's on them.  

The grind is what keeps the game going.  Get rid of the grind, you lose basically all the meat from the sandwich and it's a got nothing.  You might argue "Well, then it's not a very good game to begin with!"  and you might be right....but then, you're still here playing it, so...   What's keeping y'all from leaving?

I play, as do many others, despite the grind (or even some BECAUSE of it), because we love the game.  That doesn't mean we don't want things to change, or aren't looking forward to moving forward.... but y'all gotta stop with these threads that just declare this or that feature of the game "bad design" just because you don't like it.

I don't like certain toppings on my pizza...I don't expect my local pizzerias to get rid of them from the menu.  If I don't like the product, I simply don't buy it.  

So, if you dislike the game SO much, then stop playing it.

But, and I can say this completely OBJECTIVELY with no emotion whatsoever, if you want to give CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (which you're claiming people are doing here) then it belongs on FEEDBACK, not GENERAL DISCUSSION.  DE will not likely ever read or consider it here.

 

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11 minutes ago, (PS4)Zero_029 said:

Truth

It's not though.  2% is 1 in 50 runs.  I know RNG is not guaranteed, but that's the odds you're agreeing to the other guy's posts are "broken".

So, out of 50 runs against Wolf, you're "likely" to get it at least once.  You have 10 weeks (had even more for Season 1).

This means only about 5 runs a week with those odds...  That's fighting Wolf once a day, Monday-Friday, and taking the weekends off... Or, fighting him 5 times in one session and ignoring him the rest of the week.

And that's if you barely even try, if at all.

I don't see how that's bad odds?

What you're all ACTUALLY complaining about, apparently, is that you rolled some bad RNG (it wasn't in your favor), but that's fair.  You had JUST as likely a chance of getting it on the FIRST try, and you'd be singing its praises!  Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose...it's still fair.  Not broken.

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12 hours ago, (PS4)Taishin_Ishu said:

What's wrong with 2%?  You telling me that you're not likely to fight the Wolf over the course of 12+ weeks at LEAST 50 times?  because 2% = 1/50 chance.  Granted it's not guaranteed, but I mean...it's equally possible to get what you need on the first drop.  I've done it, personally, even.

It's 1/50 every single time, though. The game doesn't simply remember that you fought the Wolf 49 times before the 50th encounter and hand you a Mask. I chose, personally, to grind out Wolf spawns before the TA was a thing and it took me close to 100 fights and 30 straight gameplay hours (over the course of a week) of just doing a 4:30 Hydron, leaving, and then coming back in to get the Mask.

5% is far more reasonable and still leaves the rarer items feeling particularly rare.

Also, no, I didn't expect to see the Wolf 50 times in regular play over 12 weeks because there are plenty of situations where he literally isn't allowed to spawn. PoE and Fortuna, Syndicate missions, Sorties, Arbitrations, etc.

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1 minute ago, Chipputer said:

It's 1/50 every single time, though. The game doesn't simply remember that you fought the Wolf 49 times before the 50th encounter and hand you a Mask. I chose, personally, to grind out Wolf spawns before the TA was a thing and it took me close to 100 fights and 30 straight gameplay hours (over the course of a week) of just doing a 4:30 Hydron, leaving, and then coming back in to get the Mask.

5% is far more reasonable and still leaves the rarer items feeling particularly rare.

Also, no, I didn't expect to see the Wolf 50 times in regular play over 12 weeks because there are plenty of situations where he literally isn't allowed to spawn. PoE and Fortuna, Syndicate missions, Sorties, Arbitrations, etc.

I understand how odds work..  I was just putting the same odds into a different format (fraction vs percentage) to make the point.  5% is still only 1/20.  

I mean, it's still only a 1/20 chance every time...  People will then complain it should be 10%...then 20%...then "We should just get it because why not?"

and that's not me assuming...that's a literal observation of the playerbase -every time- new content comes out  with new drops.

Hell, we have GUARANTEED things like Warframe parts for standing...and people STILL complain.  "I have to play x to get y? This is bull****!"  
 

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14 hours ago, -Temp0- said:

And in case of those prime reskins, yes, you could also just buy them. Straight up buy. Any prime reskin you wnat you can buy,aside from one. In case of that particular reskin, it costed quite a lot of money but it was buyable nontheless, the only difference for a limited time.

What is the definition of reskin anyway?

Prime frame have boosted stats and energy gain from void traps.

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6 minutes ago, Chipputer said:

No. It's you assuming.

Smoking Body Ephemera is a 5% drop. I've seen exactly zero legitimate complaints about it. 

No...that's observational data.  I'm not gonna  go quote dozens of threads to prove a point, though.

You know how odds work, then you should understand that it's entirely possible to have a 99% drop rate and STILL take 400 runs to get what you want.   upping it a measly 3% isn't gonna make much difference.

And for the record, I see plenty of people complaining about the Smoking Body Ephemera....  Stalker's just easier to kill than Wolf for many players.  There are more factors to consider to players' complaints than just odds alone.

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Just now, (PS4)Taishin_Ishu said:

No...that's observational data.  I'm not gonna  go quote dozens of threads to prove a point, though.

You know how odds work, then you should understand that it's entirely possible to have a 99% drop rate and STILL take 400 runs to get what you want.   upping it a measly 3% isn't gonna make much difference.

And for the record, I see plenty of people complaining about the Smoking Body Ephemera....  Stalker's just easier to kill than Wolf for many players.  There are more factors to consider to players' complaints than just odds alone.

I'm not gonna trade un-provable observations with you back and forth. A 2% drop being upped by 3% is a massive increase in drop chance and would cause the Mask to appear far more often for far more players without making it feel like a hand out. You already saw how much more the Wolf started appearing when they upped him from whatever he was to 4%/6%.

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24 minutes ago, Chipputer said:

I'm not gonna trade un-provable observations with you back and forth. A 2% drop being upped by 3% is a massive increase in drop chance and would cause the Mask to appear far more often for far more players without making it feel like a hand out. You already saw how much more the Wolf started appearing when they upped him from whatever he was to 4%/6%.

I had no noticeable difference between the Wolf's 4 and 6% spawn rates.  Ran into him about as many times either way, soo.... 

RNG, as you yourself pointed out, is not a consistent guaranteed occurrence of one thing or another happening.  It's just more dice to roll...

Better question: Why does the Mask or any other item "need" to be available easily to more players?  I mean, when I finally got mine, there was a sense of accomplishment.  Make things easier and more widespread, and that sense of accomplishment diminishes.  And you think that's better?  Just wondering, in all honesty.

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