Its kind of tragic how we're doing missions for a ...

[Kaokasalis]

15 hours ago, Hypernaut1 said:

Its been a while now. The Tenno just cant seem to let go. Who are they working for now? A simulation?

Its sad when you think about it. The Tenno have this NEED to be given orders. 

Its Ordis who is for some reason synthesizing transmissions of the Lotus. As for who we are working for right now, I dont know. It could be a bunch of Cephalons that have taken over Lotus's operations and are designating targets for us.

[Kaokasalis]

Delete please.

Edited May 21, 2019 by Hieracon

[Renegade343]

5 minutes ago, Hieracon said:

Its Ordis who is for some reason synthesizing transmissions of the Lotus. As for who we are working for right now, I dont know. It could be a bunch of Cephalons that have taken over Lotus's operations and are designating targets for us.

Honestly, I think we're not so much working for anyone, but more because we pretty much only know what we've been doing for a long time. Either that, or we're bored.

[Cubewano]

1 hour ago, Eklectus said:

My reasons stem from one word. A name: Atlas. The way we follow her every command, even if these commands are worded as requests. The way she hid every single aspect of both ourselves and her own nature. The way her motives are still completely unknown.

The reason she "helped" us this entire time is because we were pawns. Tools for her to exert whatever control she wished upon the galaxy. The moment we left stasis, the moment Teshin unlocked our memories, we stopped obeying and, thus, became useless to her.

But we don't follow her every request, off the top my head I can remember us not listening to her during the war within, and similarly with the g3 we can choose to follow her request or not, even the glast gambit we have control over the outcome even though the Lotus has her own very clear opinion on the matter. I've never honestly gotten where people think we're just brainless puppets to the Lotus when it is so very explicit we have full autonomy in regards to our every interaction with her, we generally go along with her because we are meant to share the same ideals as her, and we trust her, but that is all fairly realistic behavior. 

In regards to her hiding our nature, she did that with the best of intentions, she was trying to protect the tenno like any parent would, to separate them from the trauma of their reality and give them the easiest life they could, even in an extremely harsh and unforgiving climate. You can call it a misguided effort, sure, but it wasn't one with sinister intent, and it is doubtful it was a decision done lightly. Even the saintly Margulis tried to bend our reality in an effort to protect us and to make us better by scrambling our memories of the zariman, because it seemed like the genuinely best option for the time. 

As for the Lotus hiding her origins from us, I'm not fully sure what value that has. We can only guess at why she didn't reveal her sentient background, if she felt shame for what she was, or thought she was just no longer that person and it was irrelevant, but it's noteworthy that once that information became pertinent she didn't shy away from letting us know who she was or try play around the reveal. 

Motive wise, that's just very blurry, she has been pretty explicit about her intent for the longest time being to protect us and maintain some kind of balance/peace in the solar system. If you don't believe her that's your perogative, but up to now it hasn't been shown that she was lying about those motives. The water has been a bit more murky as of the latest developments in the story, but DE have also kept the Lotus true feelings on the matter extremely unclear, which if she was just meant to be a generic bad guy you'd have to wonder why all the theatrics and secrecy still. 

If she wanted to exert control across the solar system she would have killed us after the Orokin Fall, as we were the only remaining threat to her species after that. Then she'd have taken over while the system was still recoiling from the loss of its strongest faction/leaders and nobody was organized or capable of adequately defending themselves. After all the Sentients were uncontested in power even by the god like Orokin without us. Instead she kept us safe and tucked away as the system evolved, the splintered factions grew stronger and more organized, learning to live without the Orokin. Instead of imparting martial rule and reverting to her sentient form she made alliances and built a network of rebels to span across the system who could exist and function outside of her, trying to make the system as a whole more capable of helping itself. None of those actions speak of a person vying for power.  

[sleepychewbacca]

1 minute ago, Cubewano said:

snip. 

While we don't have any explanation for how much influence the Lotus has on our actions, we are at the very least a mercenary group for hire. So primarily we, and the Lotus are motivated by self-interest. The way I see it is that up to the War Within, the Lotus had enough to gain with us as an independent faction between the Grineer and the Corpus. 

Personally, I don't like the Lotus/Natah character, so I can't wait to be rid of her. It would be nice to have that as an option in the New War. Something that's divisive and impactful. Keep her, or get rid of her. 

[George_PPS]

We need Space Mom to come back!

[Cubewano]

6 minutes ago, sleepychewbacca said:

While we don't have any explanation for how much influence the Lotus has on our actions, we are at the very least a mercenary group for hire. So primarily we, and the Lotus are motivated by self-interest. The way I see it is that up to the War Within, the Lotus had enough to gain with us as an independent faction between the Grineer and the Corpus. 

Personally, I don't like the Lotus/Natah character, so I can't wait to be rid of her. It would be nice to have that as an option in the New War. Something that's divisive and impactful. Keep her, or get rid of her. 

From a gameplay standpoint, sure, we're mercenaries. But thematically we're a rebel military faction trying to maintain peace in the solar system with the Lotus supplying us with intel and tools alongside often acting as a mission coordinator to help us in our efforts, efforts that are more or less motivated by some kind of perceived altruism. Anything else is your personalized fiction and not really canon to the story being told. 

But best of luck to your story becoming reality, I'd be afraid honestly to let DE diverge storylines though at this point, it takes them long enough give us story developments as is without having to double and triple the work load to deal with multiple divergent stories. Even single player rpgs devoted to that kind of story telling could only manage it to a very limited scale. 

[Renegade343]

5 minutes ago, Cubewano said:

But thematically we're a rebel military faction trying to maintain peace in the solar system with the Lotus supplying us with intel and tools alongside often acting as a mission coordinator to help us in our efforts, efforts that are more or less motivated by some kind of perceived altruism.

Eh, with all the events we have so far, we're not really trying to maintain peace, but more trying to maintain the state of 'let's not make stuff more worse than it is now', given that the most of the Solar System's still in frequent war.

[sleepychewbacca]

1 minute ago, Cubewano said:

From a gameplay standpoint, sure, we're mercenaries. But thematically we're a rebel military faction trying to maintain peace in the solar system with the Lotus supplying us with intel and tools alongside often acting as a mission coordinator to help us in our efforts, efforts that are more or less motivated by some kind of perceived altruism. Anything else is your personalized fiction and not really canon to the story being told. 

I would say it's a "from my point of view" morality vs altruism.

At any given time the Tenno have been known to be opportunistic mercenaries. We participate in invasions between the Corpus and Grineer, siding with one side or the other for rewards. Corpus and Grineer factions work to the best of their intentions, dominance and control for what they believe. 

One of the bigger points to consider is that lorewise, we have always unwittingly obeyed the Lotus without question, never once suspecting that she may have ulterior motives, as of Chimera and the New War trailer. We did start off our story with genocide, to begin with. 

[Cubewano]

21 minutes ago, Renegade343 said:

Eh, with all the events we have so far, we're not really trying to maintain peace, but more trying to maintain the state of 'let's not make stuff more worse than it is now', given that the most of the Solar System's still in frequent war.

We try to moderate the damage of the blanket corpus and grineer while providing aid for more fragmented and disenfranchised groups, I assume because the perception is slaughtering entire factions full sale isn't a good thing either for ultimate peace. (i know we kill lots of enemies as a mechanical measure, but we can probably assume our numbers aren't as bloated storyline wise)

[Yousho]

I mean, she helped us against Hunhow, right? I don't think this is a straight up betrayal. 

[Eklectus]

Unless Hunhow and Lotus' mother have a feud going on.

[Cubewano]

33 minutes ago, sleepychewbacca said:

I would say it's a "from my point of view" morality vs altruism.

At any given time the Tenno have been known to be opportunistic mercenaries. We participate in invasions between the Corpus and Grineer, siding with one side or the other for rewards. Corpus and Grineer factions work to the best of their intentions, dominance and control for what they believe. 

One of the bigger points to consider is that lorewise, we have always unwittingly obeyed the Lotus without question, never once suspecting that she may have ulterior motives, as of Chimera and the New War trailer. We did start off our story with genocide, to begin with. 

You are confusing gameplay limitations with story, which as before, aren't the same thing. From a gameplay perspective yes we are all the things you want (or can be), but from the story perspective we are not. 

And there is nothing out of character within the story we've been presented that would prompt us to be notably distrustful to the Lotus, she is a close emotional figure to our tenno who has been strongly on our side, there was no reason for any particular distrust or suspicion from us to her. Even the Orokin fall we seemed to think was right and earned, so we wouldn't question even that.  

Edited May 21, 2019 by Cubewano

[Eklectus]

16 minutes ago, Cubewano said:

she is a close emotional figure to our tenno

To your Tenno. I've seen no story reason why we're following her with such love and reverence. Since I've went through the tutorial, the only question I had was "Why?" Why should I care about Darvo, enough to slaughter an entire trading outpost to free him? Why should I bother clashing with the Grineer when I have my own spaceship and no personal stake stopping me from just leaving to have a peaceful life on some remote corner of Earth?

Yes, there's certainly a gameplay reason for it. After all, I installed this game to play a shoot & looter. However, there's no story-reason for us joining this resistance apart from the Lotus telling us to. Which leads to a pretty familiar sensation for those who played Bioshock where the linearity of the storyline was turned into a twist.

[(PSN)Hooligonzo]

I would kill any planet in the system if Sargas Ruk was my mission controller.

[Cubewano]

6 hours ago, Eklectus said:

To your Tenno. I've seen no story reason why we're following her with such love and reverence. Since I've went through the tutorial, the only question I had was "Why?" Why should I care about Darvo, enough to slaughter an entire trading outpost to free him? Why should I bother clashing with the Grineer when I have my own spaceship and no personal stake stopping me from just leaving to have a peaceful life on some remote corner of Earth?

Yes, there's certainly a gameplay reason for it. After all, I installed this game to play a shoot & looter. However, there's no story-reason for us joining this resistance apart from the Lotus telling us to. Which leads to a pretty familiar sensation for those who played Bioshock where the linearity of the storyline was turned into a twist.

As far as the games story goes we're all effectively the same tenno. And we follow her because she had a resemblance to a maternal caring character we knew after a deeply traumatic event and loss, which lead to us becoming emotionally attached to her and which feelings only furthered the longer we are around her, much like emotions and human connection do. Outside that, the why we do a lot of things is pretty explicit, we are supposed to be the good guys trying to fix the system. Just because you don't agree with that does not remove the clear intent. 

The story reason is the writers wants it to be that way, and has made it that way. Just because it doesn't fit your personal fiction doesn't make it less the story. 

[Renegade343]

7 hours ago, Cubewano said:

We try to moderate the damage of the blanket corpus and grineer while providing aid for more fragmented and disenfranchised groups, I assume because the perception is slaughtering entire factions full sale isn't a good thing either for ultimate peace.

Yeah, but that's still not ultimate peace though. The whole Solar System's still at constant war (with the occasional Infestation outbreak), and honestly, out of the groups we aid, most of them seem to be running relatively fine on their own before we come in. So, we're there mostly for 'keep things stable and not let it slide further into chaos'.

Besides, we never tried having a sit-down with the Corpus and Grineer for a break in the constant fighting, so maybe there's that too (although I think that's not going to go far as well)?

[Cubewano]

Just now, Renegade343 said:

Yeah, but that's still not ultimate peace though. The whole Solar System's still at constant war (with the occasional Infestation outbreak), and honestly, out of the groups we aid, most of them seem to be running relatively fine on their own before we come in. So, we're there mostly for 'keep things stable and not let it slide further into chaos'.

Besides, we never tried having a sit-down with the Corpus and Grineer for a break in the constant fighting, so maybe there's that too (although I think that's not going to go far as well)?

aka we maintain the peace while slowly letting the system correct itself, instead of just committing to wholesale slaughter under the presumption we are right and are enemies are doomed to forever be evil. peace isn't an easy thing to achieve, nor is there some clear cut path to it, which is why we are so moderate with our actions. we maintain the balance in the hopes for eventual peace. 

the first time we met the leadership of the grineer (which until then we had no means of communicating with as they were constantly hidden and mobile) they tried to harvest our bodies, it's probably pretty clear from day one we aren't going to have a peaceful council with them unless something big occurs beforehand to shift their views. we could probably try to have a sit-down with the corpus, but i mean we've seen what the board of directors is about so that could seem equally pointless at this stage of development. most people in positions of power for the corpus and grineer are mad tyrants and blind loyalists. also de could just not have felt it'd be a compelling story up to this point so that's a thing  

[KnightOwl_]

Lotus hologram needs to be replaced by Clem.

Edited May 21, 2019 by OmegaDonut

[Renegade343]

12 minutes ago, Cubewano said:

aka we maintain the peace while slowly letting the system correct itself, instead of just committing to wholesale slaughter under the presumption we are right and are enemies are doomed to forever be evil. peace isn't an easy thing to achieve, nor is there some clear cut path to it, which is why we are so moderate with our actions. we maintain the balance in the hopes for eventual peace.

I think our problem is that you define the time right now as peace, while I disagree with that definition.

[Cubewano]

8 minutes ago, Renegade343 said:

I think our problem is that you define the time right now as peace, while I disagree with that definition.

i mean i just said peace if hard to get to, and there isn't a clear path to it. we are just trying to get there. clearly right now isn't what a person would consider peaceful times. we maintain what peace we can to the best of our abilities in a war like time, while gradually pushing the scale in the right direction. 

Edited May 21, 2019 by Cubewano

[Chipputer]

8 hours ago, sleepychewbacca said:

We did start off our story with genocide, to begin with. 

This is important.

Not only was our original purpose to eradicate an entire faction, but we were then turned against the people who raised us up to slaughter them and then put to sleep.
Upon waking from our sleep we were immediately under attack and had no real memory of our past. This person, the Lotus, resembled our only known motherly figure and, with her guidance, we were delivered safely from our cryopod to our ship. After that she helped us get the Ascaris off of our body. Her intentions were never put into question because her actions were never negative toward us. It wasn't until the Sentient faction returned that she started to get flaky and her lying (whether directly or by omission) was revealed.

7 hours ago, Eklectus said:

To your Tenno. I've seen no story reason why we're following her with such love and reverence.

The story reason is literally, "Lotus looks like Margulis and has shown the same love and care to us as she did up until the Sentients showed back up."
Also, there's no, "your," Tenno or, "my," Tenno as far as the story is concerned. We're all playing the story of a singular Tenno with our light role-playing options offering very slight deviations. Like it or not, that's how they're choosing to tell it.

[Eklectus]

4 hours ago, Cubewano said:

As far as the games story goes we're all effectively the same tenno. And we follow her because she had a resemblance to a maternal caring character we knew after a deeply traumatic event and loss, which lead to us becoming emotionally attached to her and which feelings only furthered the longer we are around her, much like emotions and human connection do. Outside that, the why we do a lot of things is pretty explicit, we are supposed to be the good guys trying to fix the system. Just because you don't agree with that does not remove the clear intent. 

I don't know about you, but someone who speaks in a cold, monotone and mechanical manner all the time isn't the first thing that comes to mind when talking about a "maternal, caring character." When we awaken from stasis, there are no feelings of deep, traumatic loss. Our warframe is a blank slate that the player is supposed to impose themselves upon. Furthermore, the starbrat is also supposed to be a blank slate representing the character. As for good guys fixing the system? I don't see it. We didn't have a game-plan of dealing with either the Corpus or the Grineer other than going from planet to planet, hitting a group of enemies and making away with the loot. Hell, the reason we managed to kill the Grineer Queens was by accident!

4 hours ago, Cubewano said:

The story reason is the writers wants it to be that way, and has made it that way. Just because it doesn't fit your personal fiction doesn't make it less the story. 

And that's precisely the reason we don't like the Lotus. She's a bland, boring character that "doesn't fit my personal fiction" despite blank slates like the Tenno being made precisely for personal fiction. We're supposed to care for her because the writers say so, which only makes her all the more dislikeable. If they made her an Atlas-like villain, at least that'd be interesting. In reality, she's just boring.

4 hours ago, Chipputer said:

The story reason is literally, "Lotus looks like Margulis and has shown the same love and care to us as she did up until the Sentients showed back up."
Also, there's no, "your," Tenno or, "my," Tenno as far as the story is concerned. We're all playing the story of a singular Tenno with our light role-playing options offering very slight deviations. Like it or not, that's how they're choosing to tell it.

You what? We never see what Margulis looks like. Hell, we don't even see what Lotus looks like until she reveals her true nature. As for "your" and "my" Tenno, there more certainly are. Those very slight choices don't make an impact on the story apart from defining the way the starbrat acts. Going Moon, makes the kid more restrained and less emotion driven.

[Cubewano]

4 minutes ago, Eklectus said:

I don't know about you, but someone who speaks in a cold, monotone and mechanical manner all the time isn't the first thing that comes to mind when talking about a "maternal, caring character." When we awaken from stasis, there are no feelings of deep, traumatic loss. Our warframe is a blank slate that the player is supposed to impose themselves upon. Furthermore, the starbrat is also supposed to be a blank slate representing the character. As for good guys fixing the system? I don't see it. We didn't have a game-plan of dealing with either the Corpus or the Grineer other than going from planet to planet, hitting a group of enemies and making away with the loot. Hell, the reason we managed to kill the Grineer Queens was by accident!

And that's precisely the reason we don't like the Lotus. She's a bland, boring character that "doesn't fit my personal fiction" despite blank slates like the Tenno being made precisely for personal fiction. We're supposed to care for her because the writers say so, which only makes her all the more dislikeable. If they made her an Atlas-like villain, at least that'd be interesting. In reality, she's just boring.

You what? We never see what Margulis looks like. Hell, we don't even see what Lotus looks like until she reveals her true nature. As for "your" and "my" Tenno, there more certainly are. Those very slight choices don't make an impact on the story apart from defining the way the starbrat acts. Going Moon, makes the kid more restrained and less emotion driven.

She is such all the same, sorry if your connection to your mother is based primarily on her tone however. And of course not, most of our trauma is in the past pre stasis, and some blocked out, but we remembered Margulis and we remember the Lotus from those times which is when those bonds were mended. The rest is just cemented by her being with us all this time and being on our side. Both those people did attempt on varying degrees to give our tenno a fresh start, but neither really took, and in the broader scheme of things our tenno have never been genuine blank slates, nor does it seem they were ever set up to act that way ultimately. 

In regards to being good guys, we are constantly helping people, while keeping those in power from amassing too much power to do something truly awful. We may be winging it to a degree, but they are clearly good guys trying to fix the system, albeit with no uniform idea how, which is fair, peace isn't something with a clear roadmap to. 

Just because you find her bland doesn't make it fact, I'm perfectly fine with her, and she's offers far more interesting avenues than us just becoming generic edgy lone rangers with no emotional depth or complexity beyond surface level stuff, doing the tryhard cool kid act. But have your opinion if you like.  I think the writers have done a fine job making her a character worth caring for. 

[Eklectus]

27 minutes ago, Cubewano said:

She is such all the same, sorry if your connection to your mother is based primarily on her tone however. And of course not, most of our trauma is in the past pre stasis, and some blocked out, but we remembered Margulis and we remember the Lotus from those times which is when those bonds were mended. The rest is just cemented by her being with us all this time and being on our side. Both those people did attempt on varying degrees to give our tenno a fresh start, but neither really took, and in the broader scheme of things our tenno have never been genuine blank slates, nor does it seem they were ever set up to act that way ultimately. 

In regards to being good guys, we are constantly helping people, while keeping those in power from amassing too much power to do something truly awful. We may be winging it to a degree, but they are clearly good guys trying to fix the system, albeit with no uniform idea how, which is fair, peace isn't something with a clear roadmap to. 

Just because you find her bland doesn't make it fact, I'm perfectly fine with her, and she's offers far more interesting avenues than us just becoming generic edgy lone rangers with no emotional depth or complexity beyond surface level stuff, doing the tryhard cool kid act. But have your opinion if you like.  I think the writers have done a fine job making her a character worth caring for. 

She is such all the same because... you said so? Because the writers said so? A writer's job is to convince the reader that what they're reading is reality, or plausible enough that they can accept what they're reading as reality for the time being. Until the Second Dream, I genuinely thought the Lotus was an AI (especially since she asks to "upload her" during Modef missions) I haven't felt a single "motherly character" vibe from her until the story started acting like she is. Maybe, if the writers wanted us to care about Margulis and, by proxy, Lotus, they could've shown her taking care of the Tenno, instead of telling us she did and leaving it at that. So far, the name Margulis rings empty. 

You know who did manage to draw an emotional response from me? Ballas. The moment they went the route of showing instead of telling, the characters suddenly became more interesting.

In regards to us being good guys, yes. We are, indeed, constantly helping people. The Corpus thank me for my service.

Just because you're perfectly fine with her, doesn't mean everyone else is. Some of us need an actually compelling presentation to start caring for characters instead of going: "Well, the story says I care for her, so I do." Also, generic edgy lone rangers are no different from generic, edgy lone rangers religiously following some mysterious leader.