Its kind of tragic how we're doing missions for a ...

[Cubewano]

Just now, Eklectus said:

She is such all the same because... you said so? Because the writers said so? A writer's job is to convince the reader that what they're reading is reality, or plausible enough that they can accept what they're reading as reality for the time being. Until the Second Dream, I genuinely thought the Lotus was an AI (especially since she asks to "upload her" during Modef missions) I haven't felt a single "motherly character" vibe from her until the story started acting like she is. Maybe, if the writers wanted us to care about Margulis and, by proxy, Lotus, they could've shown her taking care of the Tenno, instead of telling us she did and leaving it at that. So far, the name Margulis rings empty. 

You know who did manage to draw an emotional response from me? Ballas. The moment they went the route of showing instead of telling, the characters suddenly became more interesting.

In regards to us being good guys, yes. We are, indeed, constantly helping people. The Corpus thank me for my service.

Just because you're perfectly fine with her, doesn't mean everyone else is. Some of us need an actually compelling presentation to start caring for characters instead of going: "Well, the story says I care for her, so I do." Also, generic edgy lone rangers are no different from generic, edgy lone rangers religiously following some mysterious leader.

Because the writers made it so, and want it to be so, your personal interests don't get to dictate the story DE wants to tell lest you plan to replace Steve. But beyond that I honestly don't care to have an argument on the right way to connect to the story because that is a personal thing, and you quite clearly don't want to connect and I can do nothing to change that. 

All my point was is that the story you are building in your head is not the story DE is telling, that's just reality whether you are fond of it or not. That doesn't mean you can't continue to live out your OC fanfiction, people do it all the time in thousands of different mediums and it can be great, but that does not turn it into the source material or lore. It is great that you have created your own story though and that you're letting your creativity soar. 

[VanFanel1980mx]

On 2019-05-20 at 7:39 AM, Hypernaut1 said:

Hologram.

 

Its been a while now. The Tenno just cant seem to let go. Who are they working for now? A simulation?

Its sad when you think about it. The Tenno have this NEED to be given orders. 

Ordis should do mission control now and forever.

[YazMatazO]

I am so lonely I will take the hologram...

 

 

 

 

😶

[GentlePuppet]

2 minutes ago, VanFanel1980mx said:

Ordis should do mission control now and forever.

I mean... he technically is because the hologram is a simulation created by Ordis.

[VanFanel1980mx]

3 minutes ago, GentlePuppet said:

I mean... he technically is because the hologram is a simulation created by Ordis.

Yes but I want Ordis as Ordis and not as Lotus.

[Renegade343]

2 minutes ago, VanFanel1980mx said:

Yes but I want Ordis as Ordis and not as Lotus.

Why not have different options? Ordis as:

1. Lotus

2. Ordis

3. Mute

[(PSN)wintersfrozen]

Where was this thread like 6 months ago?

Truth being we probably have hologram lotus because it was faster and easier to run a synthesizer and image filter over existing lotus files for mission sake. (like if you haven't gotten mirage, titania or any optional quest that has lotus dialogue in it)

However I want the New War quest to start with my operator yelling at Ordis for it because my god do I hate the lotus, even if you remove the betrayal part why would our operator want to be reminded of her? Why would holo lotus be a better alternative then Ordis just telling us the mission? Why the filter? If our operators care about lotus and miss her wouldn't the fake lotus just cause more pain to them in the mean time?

[GentlePuppet]

Spoiler

 

 

Edited May 21, 2019 by GentlePuppet

[Cubewano]

20 minutes ago, (PS4)wintersfrozen said:

Where was this thread like 6 months ago?

Truth being we probably have hologram lotus because it was faster and easier to run a synthesizer and image filter over existing lotus files for mission sake. (like if you haven't gotten mirage, titania or any optional quest that has lotus dialogue in it)

However I want the New War quest to start with my operator yelling at Ordis for it because my god do I hate the lotus, even if you remove the betrayal part why would our operator want to be reminded of her? Why would holo lotus be a better alternative then Ordis just telling us the mission? Why the filter? If our operators care about lotus and miss her wouldn't the fake lotus just cause more pain to them in the mean time?

looks ordis is just a poor misguided mentally fractured humanrobo man who is trying his best to help foster a bunch of homicidal space children, sometimes he's going to make a wrong call. :C

[Eklectus]

36 minutes ago, Cubewano said:

Because the writers made it so, and want it to be so, your personal interests don't get to dictate the story DE wants to tell lest you plan to replace Steve. But beyond that I honestly don't care to have an argument on the right way to connect to the story because that is a personal thing, and you quite clearly don't want to connect and I can do nothing to change that. 

All my point was is that the story you are building in your head is not the story DE is telling, that's just reality whether you are fond of it or not. That doesn't mean you can't continue to live out your OC fanfiction, people do it all the time in thousands of different mediums and it can be great, but that does not turn it into the source material or lore. It is great that you have created your own story though and that you're letting your creativity soar. 

Ah, I get what you're talking about now. So, if we should be taking the story at face-value, without looking for subtext or drawing our own conclusions, then surely we should take her betrayal at face-value as well. She only betrayed us because DE's writers wanted to play on the "character we thought was good turns out to be bad" trope.

[Cubewano]

6 minutes ago, Eklectus said:

Ah, I get what you're talking about now. So, if we should be taking the story at face-value, without looking for subtext or drawing our own conclusions, then surely we should take her betrayal at face-value as well. She only betrayed us because DE's writers wanted to play on the "character we thought was good turns out to be bad" trope.

You're the only one trying to take things at face value, but again I've made my point, I'm sorry if its not the one you wanted to hear. Best of luck with your creative process. 

[(PSN)wintersfrozen]

7 minutes ago, Cubewano said:

looks ordis is just a poor misguided mentally fractured humanrobo man who is trying his best to help foster a bunch of homicidal space children, sometimes he's going to make a wrong call. :C

My goodness did he ever. Comfort and emotional torture are two very different things.

Again if we go with the operators desire to "save" the lotus then being on the ship must be like a living hell. Ordis just casually reminding you that these are what she said during these missions. She isn't there to help you and from all you know she could be dead somewhere. She is gone and you have little to no trace of where she is and what her status is. If you wanted to help her this is just a consistent reminder that you can't.

If we go to the Operators wanting to end the lotus then this again isn't any better. The concept of her still being out their perhaps plotting her next move and the constant reminder that once upon a time she got you to trust her. Listen to all the subtle ways she got you to do her dirty work, allow me to simulate the orders she gave you that you followed like a good little soldier. Unquestioning, unwavering loyalty she once pulled from you. Here is a reminder of that with holo-lotus. That's just a constant fountain of salt being poured over the fresh wound.

Like Ordis is in a lose-lose with Hologram lotus being a thing.

[(PSN)Silverback73]

Do people realize that Lotus never really existed?

Natah is the Supreme Infiltrator Sentient.

She hijacked and improved upon Transference tech and tapped into our collective memories and created a Margulis facsimile while putting HERSELF into a dream state so her true nature became undetectable, confusing even her father, Hunhow.

Think now how this key line takes on more than one meaning:

”Dream, not of what you are, but what you want to be...”

It remains to be seen if DE writers are going to pull a tropey “Total Recall”-esque plot twist and have it be that the experience changed Natah into the mother figure she thought she was only pretending to be...

I hope they are bold enough to go dark, personally.  Sometimes growing up is hard.

 

Edited May 21, 2019 by (PS4)Silverback73

[(PSN)Silverback73]

1 hour ago, (PS4)wintersfrozen said:

My goodness did he ever. Comfort and emotional torture are two very different things.

Again if we go with the operators desire to "save" the lotus then being on the ship must be like a living hell. Ordis just casually reminding you that these are what she said during these missions. She isn't there to help you and from all you know she could be dead somewhere. She is gone and you have little to no trace of where she is and what her status is. If you wanted to help her this is just a consistent reminder that you can't.

If we go to the Operators wanting to end the lotus then this again isn't any better. The concept of her still being out their perhaps plotting her next move and the constant reminder that once upon a time she got you to trust her. Listen to all the subtle ways she got you to do her dirty work, allow me to simulate the orders she gave you that you followed like a good little soldier. Unquestioning, unwavering loyalty she once pulled from you. Here is a reminder of that with holo-lotus. That's just a constant fountain of salt being poured over the fresh wound.

Like Ordis is in a lose-lose with Hologram lotus being a thing.

Or DE doesn’t have the budget, manpower, or desire to modify it beyond some simple filters and they leave it to us to headcannon it into reasons why it works for “story” and isn’t simply a cheap bandaid of a fix, lol.

 

 

[(PSN)wintersfrozen]

29 minutes ago, (PS4)Silverback73 said:

Or DE doesn’t have the budget, manpower, or desire to modify it beyond some simple filters and they leave it to us to headcannon it into reasons why it works for “story” and isn’t simply a cheap bandaid of a fix, lol.

 

 

Perhaps you missed my first post where I did mention that the reality of it is that it was more cost effective to slap a filter on the already recorded lotus lines and images rather then make a new lines for the optional quests that have lotus input on them. The Ordis bit there is a more a lore critique not a technical one.

Edited May 21, 2019 by (PS4)wintersfrozen

[(PSN)Silverback73]

2 minutes ago, (PS4)wintersfrozen said:

Perhaps you missed mty first post where I did mention that the reality of it is that it was more cost effective to slap a filter on the already recorded lotus lines and images rather then make a new one. The Ordis bit there is a more a lore critique not a technical one.

^Yep.  Story bandaid with the Ordis tie-in.

 

The Lotus filter decision is akin to the Ostron fashion statement of shaved heads (hair) and Fortuna slave-workers (no heads at all, lol).

 

Edited May 21, 2019 by (PS4)Silverback73

[(PSN)wintersfrozen]

1 minute ago, (PS4)Silverback73 said:

^Yep.  Story bandaid.

Sadly. I get it for the aspect of not wanting to redo those additional lines from the optional quests but my goodness is it a poor fix. I would rather they make the optional quests required then give the option to remove holo-lotus but that is less cost effective them filter slapping. All the same I am curious to see where they go with her form here. I admit to be in the band wagon of "she's a bad guy, cant wait to kill her" as several in this thread. (something that was blasphemy back when the sacrifice dropped.) So I'm just hoping they can give the arch a satisfying ending (and not one of those self sacrifices "I always loved you like my own children" clichés.)

[Hypernaut1]

1 hour ago, (PS4)Silverback73 said:

^Yep.  Story bandaid with the Ordis tie-in.

 

The Lotus filter decision is akin to the Ostron fashion statement of shaved heads (hair) and Fortuna slave-workers (no heads at all, lol).

 

#spoiler.... They have heads

[Renegade343]

4 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

#spoiler.... They have heads

Well, probably not fully modeled heads. Maybe half of it.

[(XBOX)Cram Duahcim]

I just want to move on from Digimom. If she dies, she dies (hopefully because my operator killed her) but I just want to take that next step and get rid of the Ordis Lotus. 

[Loza03]

12 hours ago, (PS4)Silverback73 said:

Do people realize that Lotus never really existed?

Natah is the Supreme Infiltrator Sentient.

She hijacked and improved upon Transference tech and tapped into our collective memories and created a Margulis facsimile while putting HERSELF into a dream state so her true nature became undetectable, confusing even her father, Hunhow.

Think now how this key line takes on more than one meaning:

”Dream, not of what you are, but what you want to be...”

It remains to be seen if DE writers are going to pull a tropey “Total Recall”-esque plot twist and have it be that the experience changed Natah into the mother figure she thought she was only pretending to be...

I hope they are bold enough to go dark, personally.  Sometimes growing up is hard.

 

But... if she was an infiltrator first and Lotus was only a facade... why wouldn't she kill us? It's not like the Grineer and Corpus are a threat, or ever could be. Oculysts can wipe out Grineer bases easily - there's really no reason why she'd keep the only threat to the Sentients around other than 'betraying the Sentients'. Hell, we don't even know if the Sentients were coming until Hunhow woke up. The most likely system that Tau is would be Tau Ceti, which is just 11 light years away.  It has 5 planets, two of which are already within the habitable zone. If the Orokin wanted to spread ASAP, then that's a good starting point - terraform one of the habitable worlds, an easier task, and have infrastructure already in place for when the other planets are ready. It's a good pick for a colony.

Even at, like, 1% light speed, which is a fairly low-balled estimate considering just how advanced the Sentients must be, it would have taken only a century and a bit to get there. It's been at least 1000 years - the exact timeframe is unknown, but that's also a lowballed estimate.

So where are they?

 

I think it's more likely that Lotus did genuinely betray the Sentients, and they're 'reclaiming' her. One of the reasons is because it could lead into an interesting story shift - a Sentient Civil War. That's what my money is on for what the 'New War' actually is. Other Sentients revolt against the 'Mother' and we get drawn into it. As for Lotus's own fate, I've got two predictions. For the first - I do not think they'll kill her, for a variety of reasons - she's iconic, Reb's a big part of the community and having that role in-universe helps with that; and killing a character obviously has the negative effect of not being able to write stories with that character. Plus it's predictable, and if the rampant speculation before the Sacrifce taught me anything, it's that DE likes to be anything but.

For the second, I'm thinking of the option that resolves the thread (which IIRC they have said New War will do), they'll have her come back but in a different role. Have a moment of her coming back, but also letting go of the Tenno - basically the spacekid version of the Mother sending us off to University. I can see some kind of speech along the lines of 'you fought for me, you came here, you did all of this without me Tenno. In saving me you showed yourself that you don't need me. I will help you - but I will no longer guide you.

But I've also got a more... left-field prediction, and again, that's something DE seems to like. I predict Hunhow's going to join our side - either temporarily or permanently. I think that the more-or-less inevitable 'save the Lotus' arc will put him in a particular conundrum. What does he care more about? His grudge against a civilisation that, quite frankly, is long dead aside from a survivor that the Sentients not only saved but 'recruited'? Or his family - his daughter?

[(PSN)Zero_029]

On ‎2019‎-‎05‎-‎20 at 7:39 AM, Hypernaut1 said:

Hologram.

 

Its been a while now. The Tenno just cant seem to let go. Who are they working for now? A simulation?

Its sad when you think about it. The Tenno have this NEED to be given orders. 

I've assumed that the missions are actually Ordis giving the orders/copying the Lotus' directives, analyzing issues, disturbances, & etc but he chooses to mask himself as Lotus to make us feel more comfortable.
.
When I'd much rather Ordis just be himself. I'm sick of Glitch Lotus/Glitchus. The Hologram just made the "Lotus is gone" part of Apostasy feel less powerful, and half-baked.
Rather than have Ordis' dialogue ready to replace her entirely, DE chose a cop-out method.
(Note, unless he left the company...Ordis' Voice Actor is Mike Leatham, who to my knowledge is still a weapon artist at DE.
Yeah, they'd have to give him a bonus/temporary boost in pay for rerecording her dialogue for the missions, but the way it'd preserve the lore, strengthen the impact/feeling of her loss, & etc is much better for the game's health. Also, shows commitment to telling a powerful story.

Having Ordis fully replace her would have made her vanishing that much more powerful. It'd feel more permanent.
The fact they didn't have Ordis replace her really just spoils the plotline that she will survive, return to her old post, and all will be the same as before.
Re-recording her lines for missions is too big a challenge/ordeal apparently. But choosing not too do so makes the New War Story predictable. =/

Edited May 22, 2019 by (PS4)Zero_029

[SilentMobius]

On 2019-05-20 at 2:19 PM, Zelmen said:

That word was left out of the lore I had read after going back to see if I missed anything... Seems I missed something. Was that a quote from one of the missions? Found it, war within and said by the queen.

I mean that point is the whole point of The War Within, Margulis made us forget because we weren't handling the fact we (as a group) killed our own parents. Teshin had to put us back on the path to remembering because the hidden guilt was being used by the Queens to destroy us from within, also, killing the queens required abilities we were suppressing.

Individually, we get to choose what we did:

Quote

The grownups are howling at the door... drowning mad in the Void ocean but you... you are at ease swimming within the depths! You remember then how the howling stopped - they had broken through.

1. Operator: I held out hope we'd be rescued. So I avoided the bloodshed
2. Operator: They had lost their minds. I didn't blame them. We build[sic] a makeshift prison
3. Operator: They were nothing but animals by then. So I hunted

 

Edited May 22, 2019 by SilentMobius

[Zelmen]

32 minutes ago, SilentMobius said:

I mean that point is the whole point of The War Within

Personal I took it as just a tragic event in which the kids managed to survive and after a long period of isolation they started to go a little crazy. The choice was for them to finally get over it and decide a reason to the event. Wouldn't be the first time the concept of a youthful person can withstand something that can kill an adult. The loss of memory being a normal reaction to an over traumatic event. (Guess I watch too many movies) so missing that detail didn't take anything away from the quest. Now it just shifted the unknown death factor to a known one of the parents.

[(PSN)AyinDygra]

I consider the missions I'm going on as acting on information from the Lotus's spy network and agents in the smaller settlements of humans that we don't see enough of (like Cetus and Fortuna and Mycona and the relays). The Alerts used to be a great look into this network in action, revealing opportunities to strike the powers that be at their weakpoints, or undertaking ninja contracts to go do some crazy mission that normal operatives cannot carry out on their own. Now that the Lotus is "gone", while it isn't stated in-story, Ordis may have taken over for the Lotus, interfacing that network through her helmet (she was like the hub of all that information), and could be keeping everything going in her absence (who else knows the Lotus is gone? would that make her network fall apart if it was made public knowledge?).

The Lotus, at least from my standpoint, has been on our side (and is still on our side). There might be some sort of "thing" going on with Ballas and that helmet she wore, but that's speculation.

With the return of the "mother" sentient, it's possible Natah/Lotus knew about Ballas' deal, and rather than oppose them outright, went with them "willingly", if they really are intent on bringing her back into the fold "so-to-speak". From this new position (perhaps the mother will reveal to Lotus information that will help defeat mother), she may be in a better position to help the Tenno protect the Origin system from the Sentient forces. She'd be performing a double agent role, and that fits with her modus operandi thus far (infiltration to high levels of command).

Also, I consider the Tenno to be at least adults if not hundreds of years old, and that's long before going into cryosleep. They founded the Focus Schools, they mastered the weapons of the old ways, they fought a war, they hunted down the infested on a regular basis, they helped the Orokin find Yuvan for their Continuity method of moving between young and beautiful bodies like the Jaffa and Goa'uld of StarGate.

They are far from children, and that makes their statements about not wanting to be called children (due to their eternally void-induced youthfulness) all the more frustrating for them.

So, all this talk about mommy issues and how they're children that need to grow up? Really? these battle-hardened war veterans who use the power of the void to wield immense power and have the skills of trained ninja mercenaries... I don't see it, personally. It's not mommy issues.

I'm hoping to see how the Lotus will use her new position to help us take down the Sentient forces.