Jump to content
Jade Shadows: Share Bug Reports and Feedback Here! ×

Humble Feedback - Synergy And Redundancy


TGDM
 Share

Recommended Posts

P1FBnWS.png

 

 

First off I just want to disclaim that I do not claim to represent the majority of players, nor do I have the same insights as the development team. All I have are my experiences through the years with various titles and the knowledge that comes from that. Also, As far as I know there is no way to really add headers into this so Sections will be in Bold Underline and Sub-Sections will be Italics Underlined. tl:dr; minisections will be accentuated by *** above and below the paragraph. Just formatting notes.

Warframe is a game that benefits greatly from fluid motion and momentum. Being able to move your character steadily and reliably is one thing, but adding in elements such as parkour is another. Having powerful abilities that can help deal with being flanked/surrounded is difficult to balance. There are several elements of gameplay that have the potential for greater synergy and some elements of synergy that are redundant. For example, Saryn's Venom ability synergizes with dealing damage from normal sources (i.e. Guns) and can spread on activation, turning it into an Active Passive ability that makes it worth using in many situations because of its low cost. On the other hand, the Blocking system is full of redundancies because it is almost never worth taking a knife to a gun fight, especially when you have a gun available. Most I want to talk about Quality of Life improvements (QoL) vs. Reworks.

Ultimately the challenge that a Free to Play (F2P) game faces is finding a balance between fun, replayability/challenge, and profitability. With a few minor exceptions with the Founder's pack, the only thing Platinum can buy you is time (rush jobs, instant weapon/frame/sentinel unlocks, rare alert-only items) or cosmetic appeal (colors/scarves). DE rewards players that play more than they do players who pay in regards to actual content. Sure, you might have bought Nekros and a potato for him, your sentinel, and all your weapons, but the players who farmed him ended up improving their mastery rank more than you did (and thus can get more clan tech which holds some of the strongest weapons available). The more you play, the more you get out of the game.

 

vJjmkI2.png
Synergy:

Right now, as of Update 10, there are many utility-esque mods that offer neat features that are not necessary and thus take up a very valuable and scarce mod slot. In particular, these are your stamina, resistance, and melee mods for Warframes and zoom/stun (though the most recent livestream hinted at stun seeing increased usefulness in Damage 2.0). The most important thing DE needs to keep in mind is that if they keep adding mods like these, they'll have to either make them useful enough to warrant equipping or adjust the way mod loadouts work so that they do not take up a very scarce mod slot. Also, as players, we should always keep in mind that not all mods are meant to be universally useful and that some mods were implemented before the content they were designed for. The main issue I want to bring up is that some mods are interesting in concept, but useless in gameplay - and how to improve that.

Stamina/Movement Warframe Mods:

Acrobat, Constitution*, Handspring*, Heavy Impact, Maglev**, Marathon, Parry**, Quick Rest, Reflection**, Reflex Guard**, Rush, Shield Flux**
*Knockdown Recovery for intents and purposes will be regarded as movement, **Added in U10

How many users actively equip anything from this list other than Constitution/Rush and have a decent enough mod library as to the point they are not equipping it for a lack of anything better? I think I've equipped some of these for Mastery Rank missions and occasionally for speed runs on bosses/void missions.

The easy conclusion to jump to is that all of these mods should just utilize what Constitution and Rush are doing to become useful, but that's not a good solution. In fact, if these mods were introduced solely for levels such as the Mastery Rank / Dojo Obstacle Course missions that require parkour, then they do not need to ever be changed. If there are more missions added in the future that are essentially jumping puzzles with very limited combat then using these in your loadouts are not only viable but highly recommended. That being said, there is still some opportunity for synergy here that has been unexplored.

***
What if some of these mods were changed to be melee-weapon type mods? What if Quick Recovery became "Stamina Regenerates X% faster for Y seconds after a killing blow with melee weapon"? Adjust Parry to improve Stagger/Knockdown resistance by Y% while blocking (which would solve the issue of it being completely useless against many Infested types). Add some sort of synergy between Shield Flux and Shield/Stamina Recovery. Tie Marathon to block/melee damage in a way that it is worth having. Allow Heavy Impact to work with Excalibur/Rihno charging. Make Reflex Guard no longer have an animation that prevents you from moving / attacking
***

What's important to keep in mind is that the frames that use Rush as a must-have are the slower ones (such as Rhino) because they need that boost to keep up with groups, whereas frames with low stamina pools completely ignore Marathon because they can afford to stop sprinting for 5 seconds and kill everything around them. If Stamina is meant to become a resource for melee attacks, make it a worthwhile one to have. Adjust the risk/cost/benefit so that resource management doesn't yield trivial results.



Resistance Warframe Mods:

Antitoxin, Diamond Skin, Flame Repellent, Fortitude, Insulation, Lightning Rod, Shock Absorbers, Steel Fiber, Sure Footed, Warm Coat.

Can you spot the completely and utterly useless mod on this list? Trick question, but the answer is Warm Coat. There is absolutely no way of knowing if the mission you are preparing for will be an ice level or not and the resistance it grants is not sufficient enough to equip it for a "just in case" scenario. That being said, resistance in general is a neat feature but not a necessary one. So, how do we improve the usefulness of these?

The main issue here is that resistance should not equal immunity. At the same time, resistance should negate enough damage to provide an incentive to use it over not using it. The goal of the game is still to provide a challenge, not to enable god mode and run around collecting loot that no longer has meaning because you are already in god mode.

I have a sneaking suspicion that in Damage 2.0 this will be addressed, but even if numbers are adjusted it still won't really provide much incentive to equip in the very scarce space we have available for mod loadouts. So here's my stab at it:

***
Y% damage resisted is converted to energy. For all the specific resists such as Poison/Fire/Lightning/Ice. In addition to this, maybe rework the lobby system a bit to

(a) inform players of expected damage types that they should prepare for (specifically for new players who wouldn't know otherwise)

(b) super-elemental levels where more enemies will deal certain types of damage (i.e. a Corpus mission with a Poison element where they have poison damage mods on over 50% of enemies that spawn while the remaining amount of enemies spawned are 'normal', increasing the chance of finding a poison-related mod and the value of poison resistance)

© for the love of god tell us when an Ice Level is expected so that Warm Coat is not just transmute/vendor fodder.
***



Exploring true utility mod options for the future:

Why not create mods that specifically enhance one element of a Warframe or weapon that isn't just a raw stat correlation? Something that adds a new layer on top of something that exists? Something that takes event X and rewards event Y? Something that doesn't improve damage, but offers something just as interesting and valuable?

Like using Ogris or the Thunderbolt mod? How about a primary-specific weapon mod that grants you explosion resistance for X seconds (refreshing every time, stacks up to X*5) for every enemy killed? You won't be immune, but now you can march forward a bit more bravely as enemies rush at your Thunderbolt loaded Dread.

Like using the Supra (or similar) but hate the ridiculously long reload timer? How about a mod that decreases reload speed by X seconds for every enemy killed up to 5*X for Y seconds. So at max rank the mod would decrease your reload speed on Supra to 2.7s (not including Fast Hands).

Love doing melee damage despite its current state? How about a mod for the Warframes that can actually have abilities for melee damage (Ash/Loki/Saryn/Volt) that improves melee stagger chance while those abilities are in use? A mod that grants a chance for enemies to spawn Life / Energy orbs on melee killing blows? ( unrelated but Melee Channel in its current iteration is kind of useless due to the amount of energy it requires to be consumed)

How about a mod for Sentinels that, for the entire group, improves the likelihood of Energy Orbs dropping? An enemy radar that your Sentinel can equip? Or changing some of the unused Auras into being Sentinel Auras.

How about blade weapons dealing bleed damage over time? A mod that improves stagger/stun chance to targets suffering from Damage Over Time (such as bleed, elemental damage, or abilities such as Saryn's Venom) which would work well with the stun changes in Damage 2.0?
 

***
The point I'm getting at here is that damage is not always the right place to look.
Sometimes there are true utility options offer convenience or support other sources to amplify their potential / power. The reload timer doesn't improve damage on your Supra, but it allows you to deal more damage per second over an indefinite period of time and as a side effect lowers the risk of taking damage / being staggered while reloading.
***

 

Final Thoughts on Synergy:

 

***
Going forward, you have to keep in mind the systems that already exist. All of the warframe melee mods added in U10 feel useless to me. They seem neat, but they focus on things that aren't very good or useful to begin with and weigh in on being redundant rather than offering synergy (which I'll go more into in my next section). Synergy is about taking something that works and finding ways to supplement that strength. Not every mod or ability has to be about dealing or absorbing damage, but it still has to compete with others that do.
***

 

Z8VbydP.png

Redundancy:

There are a lot of elements of Warframe that fit in to this category. Why improve Wall Run costs when you can just increase your speed that also affects how much time you would spend wall running? Why would you bother to block when you could better spend that time attacking and letting your shield soak the damage? Why improve your resists when you can just improve your shields? Why use anything with stun chance when that makes it so much harder to land headshots?

Some of this boils down to the game being a beta and some features just haven't been fully explored / hashed out (cough block cough). Some of this can be attributed to a lack of synergy-oriented gameplay. To the player it all seems like poor planning, and that's the issue. There is an excessively long list of mods that could fit on to the list of being redundant without offering much in hope of synergy in their current state (i.e. they need complete overhauls, not QoL changes).

Case Study: LOKI:

Loki is not a damage-dealing frame. By that I mean he has 0 abilities that deal damage (aside from Radial Disarm affected non-ancient Infested). His role, then, could accurately be described as utility.

* Decoy - Nearly infinite targeted cast range, long duration, 25 energy to cast. Can be used as an aggro magnet that funnels enemies into very narrow areas (which seems like bad AI but is very useful in gameplay). Dies nearly instantly against level 40+ enemies. Can prop doors open.

This is similar to Saryn's Molt with the added benefit of a longer duration and an animation that plays (gun fire) when enemies are near, but with less survivability. Can be used with Switch Teleport for short range teleports.

* Invisibility - Moderate duration, enhances melee damage, costs 50 energy to cast. Can be used to bypass many enemies or dispatch them while technically invincible as you cannot be targeted while invisible (you can still be damaged). Does not grant sentinel invisibility and is a death sentence for them if you choose to go in melee.

This costs more and lasts longer than Ash's stealth ability, but you can be staggered while casting it unlike Ash's. Useful for speed runners and reviving fallen allies in some cases.

* Switch Teleport - Trade places with target (friend or foe), medium range, costs 25 energy to cast. Can be used on Decoy.

Aside from a few exploits (Raptor boss fight or trapping enemies on Defense missions so your relic can recover), this gimmick is rarely ever actually useful. There is a casting animation at the origin and exit point on you that prevents fluid movement and can leave you very vulnerable. When using on a large group of enemies (why would you in the first place?) it requires invisibility to be used beforehand to keep you alive. Can be used to troll players or to kill AFKers.

* Radial Disarm - Short range centered on player, incredible utility against Grineer, useful against Corpus, useless against Infested, 100 energy to cast.

While it can be extremely useful against Grineer Bombardiers/Napalms, the risk of casting it without being invisible first is insanely high. It has 0 useful effects on the Infested aside from dealing 500 damage to Chargers (and only those).

At the end of the day, it is not worth ranking up any of Loki's abilities other than Invisibility. Not unless you're willing to potato or forma him a few times.

Loki's Invisibility grants a substantial boost to melee damage, but because of the way melee weapons work this only makes it useful with a strong AoE clearing weapon like Orthos (Prime). Even then, the damage boost is still way less efficient than just using a ranged weapon to mow down enemies whilst in a technically invulnerable state. Maybe Loki was designed for Stealth gameplay, but if that's the case he should not have such a high dependence on Energy nor should he be at risk of suicide while using any of his abilities. Radial Disarm's cast time and animation need to be reconsidered and Switch Teleport needs to add some incentive to the risk. If Loki is about stealth play, why does he have to risk standing in the middle of enemies to even use 2/4 of his abilities with a third ability incentivizing melee play? Again, maybe Loki was designed for a game mode that does not truly exist yet. maybe Switch Teleport will actually be useful aside from exploits/trolling. Maybe more enemy types will be added that have medium range and are crucial to disarm because they cannot be killed quickly by anyone/thing. But unless those changes happen to the game, changes are necessary for Loki to be a viable pick.

 

***
These kinds of problems aren't exclusive to Loki. Several frames have abilities that simply aren't useful in 99% of situations and even then are not necessary or ideal. If there ever any mods that an experienced player can tell a new player that they are not worth equipping / ranking up, that is a failure of the developers. If there is a frame with polarities for abilities that players wish had no polarities so they could just equip something else in those slots, that is a failure in the design.

***

 

Other Types of Redundancy:

Knockdown Resistance can be a situationally useful resistance to pick up, but how effective is it when it is only a chance vs having a guaranteed recovery rate AND some abilities will grant you immunity to stagger/knockdown while casting? Not very, unfortunately.

Mods like Provoked make absolutely no sense to me, too. Unlike Borderlands, you do not get a "Second Wind" if you kill a target while downed. This mod could only potentially be useful in group play to kill off targets while being revived by a team mate, but the limited aiming direction you have while downed makes this even more limited in use than it already is.

Scavenger auras and the new Speed Holster aura are interesting in concept but require a valuable Aura slot to equip, thus leaving them useless once you have a better alternative (such as Energy Siphon instead of Speed Holster).

Additions to the game that serve no purpose other than being inferior options to already existing options are absolutely pointless. In some games, like Diablo 2, finding an item that has Light Radius or (non-eth) Repair every X seconds were considered inferior stats that were sought after to be replaced and that's fine - if your option is to replace and upgrade. Warframe seems to be more about collecting a vast library of options, not replacements. Before adding any new mods to the game, DE should stop and ask "Is this mod fun to use, viable to use, and serve a unique purpose?" Maglev is a fun mod and it has a unique effect, but it is not viable to use and the purpose is not unique.



Quality of Life Adjustments That Could Help:

Nyx's Absorb, especially with increased duration mods, leaves you motionless for a long period of time and has a vulnerable stage while casting. Adjust it so that the damage staggers enemies and the shield still protects you as you descend from the bubble.

Trinity's Energy Vampire only ticking four times, making increased duration detrimental to its effectiveness if the target dies. Adjust it so that if the target dies while still under the effect, it grants energy.

Loki's Stealth leaves his Sentinel extremely vulnerable. Grant Sentinel stealth!

Ash's ultimate cannot target things too well and has issues with jumping over tile sets. Let it jump through those bounds, let it acquire new targets if marked targets on cast died.

That kind of stuff. Stuff that doesn't change what the abilities really are, that doesn't try to remake them. Stuff that takes the broken bits and makes them better. Enough to the point they're considered good and not broken. The fixingness!



Cooldowns VS Energy Consumption:

I've been writing for a long time now so I'll revisit this if the thread picks up. Basically I want to explore the idea of removing the energy cost from SOME abilities and replacing them with cooldowns, especially on utility-only abilities.

 

Shifting Some Utility Mods to the Sentinels:

 

Another section I might want to explore more of later. Kind of want to make sure I'm not spending all this time without beinga ble to reach out to anyone.

 

3IFDYt7.png

tl;dr: More and more resources are being added to the game without adjusting the cap to utilize them. We might have 14 mods that we feel are awesome for our Warframe, but Vitality, Redirection, (usually) 4 Abilities + some form of Focus/Continuity are essentially required and leave little room for utility. Either that utility needs to surpass the perceived necessity of existing mods, or more space needs to be allocated specifically for such minor utility. By the same token, some Warframes have abilities that essentially conflict with one another in design philosophy.

 

This post highlights only a few examples but I'm trying to get to the core design philosophy DE is using. What prompted me into writing this was how they added so many melee and stealth mods without addressing the current state of either first.

 

Edit1: Formatting changes that I missed in my initial proof reading. Also added a few things.

 

Edit2: Added some images to helps break up the sections a bit better. Added in spoilers in another minor edit.

Edited by TGDM
Link to comment
Share on other sites

There is a tl;dr but I need to make the sections stand out better.

 

Maybe with some images....

 

use [_spoiler] and [_/spoiler] to divide the sections up, just drop the _ from my examples.  I made this same mistake in my first few threads, and changing it made the thread better received.  Just go back in and Edit.

 

As for the post itself, there are a lot of very good and very valid points.  A lot of people have been saying for a while that DE needs to go back and fix a tonne of stuff.  I wonder if the issue is manpower.  Many people complain about "Why are they making scarves?", forgetting that the Art team needs something to do as well.

 

That said, it might be interesting to see the results if DE posted a poll asking what the players would rather see for the next big update "Lots more content with minor bug fixes" or "Major fixes and reworks, with the barest of content."  My vote would be for the latter.  I would gladly sacrifice not getting more content before Christmas so that major issues in the game could be addressed.  In a sense, by doing that, we WOULD get "new" content because we'd be able to explore all the changes and see how things now work.  That would be more exciting for me at this stage then new levels and another boss fight (though those new levels did blow my mind on the first run throughs).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

+1 to all of this, I really hope the next few updates focus on polishing and tweaking existing content to make it more relevant/useful rather than continually adding new content that is great in concept but impractical and therefore useless in actual play.  "Second Tier" or "Utility" mods as a separate category with their own extra slots in warframes and weapons is something that's been discussed a lot on the forums but afaik never directly addressed by DE, but is something that definitely needs attention if they want any of their new stuff to actually be considered viable.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thank you guys for the feedback. I added in spoiler tags to help condense things a bit (though my personal preference is not to use them, as I like having the full page ready to just side scroll through).

 

Please keep in mind that any discussion regarding adding new content vs fixing existing is nearly moot, though. Adding new Warframes especially will always take a high priority. The Derelict missions look amazing and are really fun, especially as an option to the inconsistency of Void Keys since you can craft your own destinations, but rest assured they won't be doing big additions like this all the time and can rework existing elements in between releases of major content.

 

DE does have to worry about paying its employees and new content is what drives that. I doubt they would ever release the information to us, but I would not be surprised to learn that their conversion rate jumped up substantially in U10 due to a cosmetic item that was not just a recoloring option.

 

What I'm saying is that it is up to DE to try to find the right balance of Reworks and New Content and then for the Community to provide reasonable, tempered feedback as to how that is affecting their experience.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Good read on good topic of the game.

I'm concerned with the game design. As a game that designed to deliver entertainment through killing AI, the basic design is extremely limited. Melee is almost untouched, as long as you have ammo in your guns since it's safer and deal much higher damage through guns.

Addition of block-related mods in U10 just make the matter even more comical. Instead of improving block mechanic and give it DR based on stat like attack rate, DE pushed out collection of mods that didn't even address the problem. Blocking should be a potent, skill based alternative to the classic shield-based build. However, DE seems to be hesitant to promote it as a valid playstyle and released new but unneccessary mods out.

The only stuff that they finally done right with mod in U10 is Glaive-related mods. Then again, they somehow forgot about Kestrel.

I think the main problem in Warframe's development is the fact that DE has no masterplan or general direction on which path the game should take. After U7 with introduction of new mod system which was advertised as "able to create more diversity to the game". I bought it but so far, DE has been unable to unshackled the game the old mods like redirection.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think the main problem in Warframe's development is the fact that DE has no masterplan or general direction on which path the game should take. After U7 with introduction of new mod system which was advertised as "able to create more diversity to the game". I bought it but so far, DE has been unable to unshackled the game the old mods like redirection.

 

Not to be too harsh, but they're introducing optional mods that are akin to Diablo 3's itemization options. In that they did not really think through what they were doing when they limited the amount of rolls available per item to 6 and how any non-main stat would become completely useless and drop the value of the item to near zero.

 

In the same way, the mods you can use on any item/warframe is a limited amount and makes each mod compete for the scarcity of slots available. If they don't increase the slots available in total, add in separate specific loadout locations (i.e. more slots that compete for minor mods whilst the original are considered major), or otherwise improve their value it's just pointless inflation of mods which then in turn makes it harder to find useful mods because there are so many trash-tier ones in the way.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

+1... Good points and I tend to agree. Thanks for sharing. 

 

You mentioned Nyx and I am not sure if you have noticed, or thought it was an issue... But, using Shade with Nyx as she executes her Ultimate, it weakens the ability. When you get cloaked you draw less fire and end up doing less damage.This seems pointless to me. With or without using that sentinel, you are untouchable during that #4.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

+1... Good points and I tend to agree. Thanks for sharing. 

 

You mentioned Nyx and I am not sure if you have noticed, or thought it was an issue... But, using Shade with Nyx as she executes her Ultimate, it weakens the ability. When you get cloaked you draw less fire and end up doing less damage.This seems pointless to me. With or without using that sentinel, you are untouchable during that #4.

 

Update 10 did have some QoL changes for interaction between Nyx and the Shade sentinel, but yuor point is still valid. Especially when using it in groups and with improved power duration.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Very good post OP! There are a lot of great points you make that i've been trying to get across in my own threads, but i just haven't had the ability to express my thoughts well enough (and sometimes it feels pointless anyway, since no one seems to take the time to read it if there is more than a hundred words in the initial post -.-). The word "redundancy" is a great word to describe a LOT of the stuff in this game. Things in particular that aches me are:

 

1) No real incentive to level up some abilities. Imo, all abilities should scale in more than just one way when you level them up (Like Loki's decoy, what point is there to level it up to get a longer duration of it when it always remains is so extremely fragile?)

2) Blocking being useless. If it was a really powerful mechanic, all of a sudden stamina mods would be a good alternative to shield mods! DE's blocking-mod-additions are just bandaids that won't do anything. The disease is still there: BLOCKING IS POINTLESS!

 

Even if those 2 are my main gripes, i agreed with all your other points too. DE seems stuck in the mindset: "Add more, more, more! Everything for a quick buck!" but disregard the longevity and quality of what they add. It really pains me, as this game feels very unique and promising, but DE really needs to get their act together and start POLISHING and BALANCING their stuff!

 

I've even been trying to help out a lot. Look at all these (oiften huge) threads:

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/46685-azamagons-warframe-ability-balancing/#entry473716

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/103745-warframe-ability-slots-mod-points-and-auras/#entry1195046

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/109380-energy-system-tweaks-ninja-signs/#entry1266265

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/89931-melee-tweaks/#entry997271

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/97186-snipershotgun-ammo-and-the-ogristoridmiter/#entry1096027

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/44685-azamagons-big-list-of-little-improvements/

 

The thing is, I'm still updating those threads! I still have ideas how to improve these things in the best ways possible! I have a passion for balancing, improving and polishing. But, why do i get the impression that DE doesn't anymore? Do they really care, or are they just in for a quick buck with this game? I dunno, maybe I'm just getting bitter when i see yet ANOTHER company that seems to have succumbed to greed (Another great potential was Killing Floor by Tripwire Interactive. Then they got popular and sold a lot of copies of the game, but when that happened they just stopped doing any fixes whatsoever for the game. Some things have been in the need of fixing for YEARS now. Money always seem to win, sadly enough)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks for the feedback. I'll be sure to check out your posts as I have time.

 

The word "redundancy" is a great word to describe a LOT of the stuff in this game. Things in particular that aches me are:

 

1) No real incentive to level up some abilities. Imo, all abilities should scale in more than just one way when you level them up (Like Loki's decoy, what point is there to level it up to get a longer duration of it when it always remains is so extremely fragile?)

2) Blocking being useless. If it was a really powerful mechanic, all of a sudden stamina mods would be a good alternative to shield mods! DE's blocking-mod-additions are just bandaids that won't do anything. The disease is still there: BLOCKING IS POINTLESS!

 

On the topic of #1, it's not so much that abilities need multi-scaling, but they need to scale in a relevant manner. If Loki's Decoy only scaled in duration per rank, BUT it passively (at all ranks) received a portion of your shields/health, it would become insanely valuable for just 25 energy. Rhino shields are 1200 damage pure absorption for 50 - granted that protects him directly, but a Loki Decoy could easily block 500 shield + 400 HP for 25 almost as effectively. So it's just a matter of adjusting some abilities to more accurately reflect their purpose and making sure that purpose is always relevant (lol 1 shot decoys at 40+).

 

It's not a 'sad' thing that DE is seeking profitable areas of development first. They have a staff they have to accommodate/compensate. Each team has to actively be put to use to reduce overhead etc etc.

 

I have faith that DE will only get better, but I'm just a bit nervous with some of the growing pains we're seeing right now in the development cycle.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Not to be too harsh, but they're introducing optional mods that are akin to Diablo 3's itemization options. In that they did not really think through what they were doing when they limited the amount of rolls available per item to 6 and how any non-main stat would become completely useless and drop the value of the item to near zero.

 

In the same way, the mods you can use on any item/warframe is a limited amount and makes each mod compete for the scarcity of slots available. If they don't increase the slots available in total, add in separate specific loadout locations (i.e. more slots that compete for minor mods whilst the original are considered major), or otherwise improve their value it's just pointless inflation of mods which then in turn makes it harder to find useful mods because there are so many trash-tier ones in the way.

I don't believe that increasing mod slots available to us will solve anything. ARPG meta game concerning build of character is based on the concept of choice - you never have enough skill point for all skills therefore you have to maximize potential in one area and sacrifice another.

Increase the value of newer mods to compete with older mods is a better path, imo.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't believe that increasing mod slots available to us will solve anything. ARPG meta game concerning build of character is based on the concept of choice - you never have enough skill point for all skills therefore you have to maximize potential in one area and sacrifice another.

 

Right, that's what my point was but I didn't articulate the why that scarcity exists and is crucial part.

 

The game should never arrive to a point where you can equip EVERYTHING because that defeats the purpose of choice and value of customizing a build. Any game with a talent tree demonstrates this well - if you can max out EVERYTHING, you choices seem trivial and meaningless, distancing you from the game.

 

However, think to WoW (since that is a popular title) and it's Glyph system: There were reserved slots for Major Glyphs and Minor Glyphs (and more now but I haven't played since ~wotlk). Major glyphs were dedicated to enhancing damage/survivability while Minor were more for increasing durations of abilities, reducing costs of out-of-combat buffs, or decreasing cooldowns on non-combat abilities. Granted this system wasn't perfect and ended up having a lot of room to min/max for combat efficiency (reducing buff costs meant you could re-buff battle res'd people with ease or restore purged buffs, sometimes minor cooldown reductions affected big skills like Lay on Hands), but you get the idea.

 

Adding in space where the non-major mods could be picked out for convenience without competing against the major mods could give them a fresh breath of life. I'd much rather see all the mods get on the same level of value, but I'm more eager for any solution. Maglev is a really fun mod but I could never justify actually using it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Right, that's what my point was but I didn't articulate the why that scarcity exists and is crucial part.

 

The game should never arrive to a point where you can equip EVERYTHING because that defeats the purpose of choice and value of customizing a build. Any game with a talent tree demonstrates this well - if you can max out EVERYTHING, you choices seem trivial and meaningless, distancing you from the game.

 

However, think to WoW (since that is a popular title) and it's Glyph system: There were reserved slots for Major Glyphs and Minor Glyphs (and more now but I haven't played since ~wotlk). Major glyphs were dedicated to enhancing damage/survivability while Minor were more for increasing durations of abilities, reducing costs of out-of-combat buffs, or decreasing cooldowns on non-combat abilities. Granted this system wasn't perfect and ended up having a lot of room to min/max for combat efficiency (reducing buff costs meant you could re-buff battle res'd people with ease or restore purged buffs, sometimes minor cooldown reductions affected big skills like Lay on Hands), but you get the idea.

 

Adding in space where the non-major mods could be picked out for convenience without competing against the major mods could give them a fresh breath of life. I'd much rather see all the mods get on the same level of value, but I'm more eager for any solution. Maglev is a really fun mod but I could never justify actually using it.

Actually, one thing that make the game rather strange in term of choice is power/melee/range weapon loadout difference. Power-based build (flow, streamline, focus, stretch, etc.) must equip all these mods on the frame itself. However, weapon-based build (wait, we don't have that) can put all damage mods into weapon of choice.

The first thing is to make all meta game choices viable. We have three modes of attack (range, melee, and power) and three modes of defense (shield, health, parry). The combinations between these six alone will be enough to make the foundation of the game's metagame. We have 9 combinations available.

Right now, the main problem is we don't have to choose between three modes of attack. Our three modes of defense aren't equally viable. Only shield is viable in all levels. We need the mechanic to support all of them, equally. However, that means dethroning redirection or give different life to shield mechanic since it's basically a rechargeable health. It's numerical that doesn't serve anything and has no special flavor at this point.

I have to point out in ME3MP mechanic for shield. Shield can take limited amount of damage and rechargeable as well but with special flavor: it absorb the last damage dealt, totally, before breaking. If you have 1 shield left and the incoming damage is 999. The entire 999 damage would be absorbed entirely.

Or we can look at Frank Herbert's Dune Holtzman shield mechanic. The shield deflects fast moving projectile but vulnerable to deceptively slow strike (not to mention that it explodes like atomic bomb when hit by laser weapon). We can use it in Warframe with modification. Shield recieves resistance to range attack, health recieves resistance to melee.

Like you said though ANY solution would be nice.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

"Can you spot the completely and utterly useless mod on this list? Trick question, but the answer is Warm Coat."

^ Actually lol'd hard at the bolded part.

 

I'm reserving space to give you a proper analysis, but suffice to say you're right about pretty much everything you said and I agree. I'm certain I've said some of the same stuff at some point, but not quite the same way.

 

Like you said, any solution would be nice. It had previously occurred to me to perhaps have a dedicated slot or two that are "only" for things like "handspring" or whatevs, but the truth is, something like "handspring" should be baseline, or a skilled technique, or something that grows with the frame (i.e. the player character will recover from knockdowns faster as they rank up).

 

I find it sad that we only "really" have like 2-4 slots to work with after things that are necessary for all frames. It discourages diversity in valid builds.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Right now, the main problem is we don't have to choose between three modes of attack. Our three modes of defense aren't equally viable. Only shield is viable in all levels.

 

Except some nightmare/ice levels :p Health is always viable, shields are nice, Armor isn't substantial. I have a feeling Damage 2.0 will somewhat address this, but I'm not sure to what extent.

 

 

I find it sad that we only "really" have like 2-4 slots to work with after things that are necessary for all frames. It discourages diversity in valid builds.

 

It's fine if not all builds are valid for every Warframe (Mag and Loki have very different kits, for example), but it does beg the question "Why add that?" when something new is not useful for any Warframe.

 

Right now the focus of this thread is to appeal to DE's design philosophy. To try to bridge the gap between redundancy and synergy.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Your piece on synergy reminded me of Krieg, one of the (DLC-) playable characters in Borderlands 2, who is remarkably well designed if you look at it from this perspective. One of his skill trees is entirely dedicated to setting him on fire and reaping some form of benefit from it. Playing him while focused on this skill tree goes like this:
 

- set yourself and every enemy on fire

- gain: damage reduction from being on fire, a % of your fire damage on enemies back as health, improved fire damage etc.

- with his highest tier ability you start spawning fireballs whenever you're hit while on fire, meaning that the more you get hit, the more you hit enemies with those fireballs, effectively regaining more health through additional fire damage

 

What I'm trying to get at is: This works really, REALLY well once you get all the components together because of how intertwined those systems are. It'd be great if warframes had this level of synergy - I just don't know how they could actually make that happen with the current set of mechanics.

Edited by 101blubb
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Your piece on synergy reminded me of Krieg, one of the (DLC-) playable characters in Borderlands 2, who is remarkably well designed if you look at it from this perspective. One of his skill trees is entirely dedicated to setting him on fire and reaping some form of benefit from it... (cont.)

 

Of course there are some inherent differences between the two games, but what's important is recognizing how satisfying that synergy makes gameplay, how it dynamically adds layers to already existing mechanics and rewards you for investing.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...