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Operation: Hostile Mergers [PC] [OVER].

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1 hour ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

The minimum threshold of existence for a Ghost clan is not 3.33 players. It is one. If DE didn't allow Ghost clans to exist with membership below 4 then you'd be correct.

3.33 whatever isn't the minimum number of people required to contribute though. It's the difference in resources required for one player to contribute in order to reach the goal. So, the solo ghost always has to contribute 3.33 times the resources a single 10-man shadow member does. This is how it's been for years, which is why I ask if you cry "unfair" each time you do solo research.

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1 minute ago, Eklectus said:

3.33 whatever isn't the minimum number of people required to contribute though. It's the difference in resources required for one player to contribute in order to reach the goal. So, the solo ghost always has to contribute 3.33 times the resources a single 10-man shadow member does. This is how it's been for years, which is why I ask if you cry "unfair" each time you do solo research.

Well, let me see if I can find..

Oh yeah. I suggested this 2 years ago when the Hema was fresh in everyone's minds and DE first hinted at the Kingpin system which, as it was being described, might actually have become literally impossible (instead of just rather improbable) for us solo Ghosts to succeed in, no matter how much effort we put in.

 

Honestly, the resource taxation in every other case is pretty much a one person task anyway. The Hema was the only time it got really oppressive. Operation scores, well they're a different story because it's not just a matter of investing effort to an inevitable success. It can be a task to go above and beyond all reasonable expectations to the point where the Ghost-threshold requires you to be leaderboard material straight up, where the other clans are just.. playing a little bit over the standard. 3.33 times the contributions means a lot more difficulty due to exponential scaling, you know.

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Just now, TheLexiConArtist said:

Well, let me see if I can find..

Oh yeah. I suggested this 2 years ago when the Hema was fresh in everyone's minds and DE first hinted at the Kingpin system which, as it was being described, might actually have become literally impossible (instead of just rather improbable) for us solo Ghosts to succeed in, no matter how much effort we put in.

 

Honestly, the resource taxation in every other case is pretty much a one person task anyway. The Hema was the only time it got really oppressive. Operation scores, well they're a different story because it's not just a matter of investing effort to an inevitable success. It can be a task to go above and beyond all reasonable expectations to the point where the Ghost-threshold requires you to be leaderboard material straight up, where the other clans are just.. playing a little bit over the standard. 3.33 times the contributions means a lot more difficulty due to exponential scaling, you know.

You're willing to put in the effort though, aren't you? So, go ahead and put in the same amount of extra effort it takes to run a solo clan as usual.

I'm currently on mobile, so I can't address the cell suggestion, but from a cursory glance I like the idea. It is, however irrelevant to your claims of a solo ghost having to put in 10 times the effort a shadow does compared to the usual 3.3 recurring.

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3 minutes ago, Eklectus said:

You're willing to put in the effort though, aren't you? So, go ahead and put in the same amount of extra effort it takes to run a solo clan as usual.

I'm currently on mobile, so I can't address the cell suggestion, but from a cursory glance I like the idea. It is, however irrelevant to your claims of a solo ghost having to put in 10 times the effort a shadow does compared to the usual 3.3 recurring.

Well, it's not dissimilar from what I suggested in here earlier - a 4-person 'clan' being the baseline and working up from there. Making it all scale up in powers of 4 is just icing on that proverbial cake to complete the uniform distribution.

It's directly related - because that suggestion is to make the "one man band" proportion 4x instead of the current 10x, which is still bigger than the 3x/3.33x of the bigger tiers, but not unreasonably so. Instead of a single Ghost earning their own tier's trophy being equivalent to a 10-Shadow being told to get the score of a Storm clan.

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43 minutes ago, Eklectus said:

You're willing to put in the effort though, aren't you? So, go ahead and put in the same amount of extra effort it takes to run a solo clan as usual..

It's definitely not the same amount of effort. I run a solo clan with the intent of helping newbies along and then letting them go, so they can find larger and more active clans and alliances, and aside from the Hema research, everything is doable because it doesn't involve having to do a two or three hour long single session mission. Research, extra 0 on the mutagen sample, is a much easier task to undertake.

The magnitude of effort involved is much larger when it comes to solo (or sub-five) clans.

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4 minutes ago, TheLocalHentai said:

It's definitely not the same amount of effort. I run a solo clan with the intent of helping newbies along and then letting them go, so they can find larger and more active clans and alliances, and aside from the Hema research, everything is doable because it doesn't involve having to do a two or three hour long single session mission. Research, extra 0 on the mutagen sample, is a much easier task to undertake.

The magnitude of effort involved is much larger when it comes to solo (or sub-five) clans.

You are aware that you don't have to hit 20k all by yourself, right? This "spend 3 hours in a mission" thing can be avoided if you approach this just like any other farm. Get a full squad and suddenly the goal is much easier and faster to achieve.

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1 hour ago, Eklectus said:

You're willing to put in the effort though, aren't you? So, go ahead and put in the same amount of extra effort it takes to run a solo clan as usual.

I am a player who started playing warframe not long ago. I run my solo clan, not much trouble with it. Most of the stuff is maxed out and it was not a hassle at all.

You make it sound as though solo clan takes extra effort to run. 

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Posted (edited)
14 hours ago, --Cyberius-- said:

What? no, most Solo clans are SOLO because they don't wanna be in a Clan where they have to listen to complete self opinionated waffle, off people just like you.

salt af, god sake.

 

14 hours ago, Eklectus said:

So, you expect to not put the effort into building a proper clan, pruning it for viable members and making sure it's ready/active for a clan event... and still earn Gold in a competition? Seems legit.

this, perfect. god sake!

 

5 hours ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

Clans at tiers above Ghosts do not have to contribute as much per-person for under-par memberships, unless they're so far under membership they could downsize to reduce the demand.

"do not have to contribute" hahahahahaha!!
Yes, some will not donate, and against that, someone will have to donate 2x more to compensate for that gap .....

oops, wait!

it's exactly the problem you're going through having clan alone!
Have to score alone because of gap!
Only in my case, it's even worse, and it's worse because having BIG TIER CLAN is worse than having smaller one.
The only difference is that you chose to be solo, and I did not, but i still have the same issue!


 

5 hours ago, Eklectus said:

Plug any research requirement into that and you'll get the exact same result. Example, Hema:

15000/10 = 1500

5000/1500 = 3.333

And once again, a clan at minimum membership, consisting of one person, is not a clan.

And once again, x2
a clan at minimum membership, consisting of one person, is not a clan.

Conclusion:
it is problematic gun search being a clan-only feature,  and I understand this frustration of the solo clan owners.
But it also does not make sense to solo player complaining about a GROUP feature or use garbage arguments like this one:

"
What? no, most Solo clans are SOLO because they don't wanna be in a Clan where they have to listen to complete self opinionated waffle, off people just like you."

Typical example of people who can not live with different opinions or socialize in a game coop.
The rational solution would be to enable dojo resources for these solo players in exchange for giving other features exclusive to dojo, but not so mandatory.
Or just ignore this portion of players and make them accept that this game is not for them, but that decision is up to DE, not me

Edited by --Blame--
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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Eklectus said:

You are aware that you don't have to hit 20k all by yourself, right? This "spend 3 hours in a mission" thing can be avoided if you approach this just like any other farm. Get a full squad and suddenly the goal is much easier and faster to achieve.

You have a choice, recruit and score or be antisocial and dont get trophy, you cant have both.
And again, be careful. There is a crucial difference between attacking ideas and attacking a person here.

Edited by --Blame--
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1 minute ago, --Blame-- said:

"do not have to contribute" hahahahahaha!!
Yes, some will not donate, and against that, someone will have to donate 2x more to compensate for that gap .....

oops, wait!

it's exactly the problem you're going through having clan alone!
Have to score alone because of gap!
Only in my case, it's even worse, and it's worse because having BIG TIER CLAN is worse than having smaller one.
The only difference is that you chose to be solo, and I did not, but i still have the same issue!


a clan at minimum membership, consisting of one person, is not a clan.

If your clan is at its minimal capacity and 66% of those are not contributing to the event at all, or an even sadder proportion of greater membership aren't contributing, then you have a management issue and could most likely go in with a prune and downsizing for the sake of the event. It's an available option.

The only way a higher tier clan is worse off than a lower tier clan is if they have severely bad membership. Moon clan? 100 members to match the ghost. No question you could drop that to a mountain. Same for the rest. Don't act like having 250 active members out of 400 registered in that Moon clan is equivalent to the Ghost. It's not.

 

One person holding a Ghost clan is exactly as much of a clan as 10 people holding a Shadow clan count as a Shadow clan. That's not your right to state, that's DE's place to address -  enforcing dissolution of Ghost clans with 3 or fewer members - which they do not do. So one and two-person Ghost clans are officially supported.

8 minutes ago, --Blame-- said:

You have a choice, recruit and score or be antisocial and dont get trophy, you cant have both.
And again, be careful. There is a crucial difference between attacking ideas and attacking a person here.

Shadow clans with just 10 people lurking around don't have to recruit, and they get a trophy with little extra effort. So yeah, doesn't work. This idea of yours is just a fallacy, obscuring the facts. Minimum clan membership is minimum clan membership no matter what the tier is, so if one has to put in more than the other then it is not an equally balanced challenge.

You cannot win this argument with subjective opinions ("one person isn't allowed to be a clan") because you are objectively wrong. It is pure inarguable fact that the clans are unbalanced in the ratio of their expected capacities - the maximum capacity to the minimum required to justify that tier. Negligibly so for the higher tiers (3.33 versus 3 is a small change) but oppressively so for Ghosts (10 versus 3.33 is an immense change).

'Half participation' means drastically different things to the different clan tiers.

Unless you want to make Shadow Clans need to attain 50 players' score, Storms to attain 150 players' score, Mountains to attain 500 players' score and Moons to attain 1500 players' score, then sit down and admit there's a problem with expectations.

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2 minutes ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

You cannot win this argument with subjective opinions ("one person isn't allowed to be a clan") because you are objectively wrong.

Objectively wrong to say you can't have a group consisting of one person. Up next, a story about a peaceful war, a dry swim and a square circle.

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4 minutes ago, Eklectus said:

Objectively wrong to say you can't have a group consisting of one person. Up next, a story about a peaceful war, a dry swim and a square circle.

A clan is a banner to rally under. An organisation, a dojo in which to trade and invest in research. Nowhere in that does it say you must have multiple people active.

I can do the absurdist hyperbole too:

This just in, lone scientist cannot make discoveries because one person cannot be a research team to run a laboratory.

Up next, we talk to one deluded man who claims to be "self employed", despite the common knowledge that a company must consist of multiple people in order to exist!

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13 minutes ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

If your clan is at its minimal capacity and 66% of those are not contributing to the event at all, or an even sadder proportion of greater membership aren't contributing, then you have a management issue and could most likely go in with a prune and downsizing for the sake of the event. It's an available option.

The only way a higher tier clan is worse off than a lower tier clan is if they have severely bad membership. Moon clan? 100 members to match the ghost. No question you could drop that to a mountain. Same for the rest. Don't act like having 250 active members out of 400 registered in that Moon clan is equivalent to the Ghost. It's not.

 

Ok, its true

 

14 minutes ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

One person holding a Ghost clan is exactly as much of a clan as 10 people holding a Shadow clan count as a Shadow clan. That's not your right to state, that's DE's place to address -  enforcing dissolution of Ghost clans with 3 or fewer members - which they do not do. So one and two-person Ghost clans are officially supported.

Shadow clans with just 10 people lurking around don't have to recruit, and they get a trophy with little extra effort. So yeah, doesn't work. This idea of yours is just a fallacy, obscuring the facts. Minimum clan membership is minimum clan membership no matter what the tier is, so if one has to put in more than the other then it is not an equally balanced challenge.

You cannot win this argument with subjective opinions ("one person isn't allowed to be a clan") because you are objectively wrong. It is pure inarguable fact that the clans are unbalanced in the ratio of their expected capacities - the maximum capacity to the minimum required to justify that tier. Negligibly so for the higher tiers (3.33 versus 3 is a small change) but oppressively so for Ghosts (10 versus 3.33 is an immense change).

'Half participation' means drastically different things to the different clan tiers.

Unless you want to make Shadow Clans need to attain 50 players' score, Storms to attain 150 players' score, Mountains to attain 500 players' score and Moons to attain 1500 players' score, then sit down and admit there's a problem with expectations.

.
clan means a group of people, by definition the solo clan idea is wrong, and I embrace that definition.
however, in the game you can be a group of one person only, it is an aberration, but it is possible.

_

can you be a solitary warlord for being antisocial and not wanting to argue with other people? yes, you have every right, and you're not wrong.

can you have plenty of reasons to want to have a solo clan because you do not have the time to join a big clan and fulfill your schedule or do not want to be banned for inactivity? You're right to worry about it. It makes sense to create a solo clan so you do not get kicked out of inactivity.

as a player, is a correct maneuver, and if I did not have literally 4 clans that I am founder to create a self sufficient alliance environment, I might do the same as you.

however, by definition it is still an erroneous clan concept alone.
is an impasse that the DE must resolve. I think remodeling clan tiers would help partially, but it's a complex subject. I believe that encouraging mechanics that make newbies more access to clan help and ignoring who is antisocial is more profitable and beneficial to the community and to the profitability of the company. Unfortunately it did not seem to please everyone and at some moments if you have to pick sides.

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Posted (edited)
11 minutes ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

This just in, lone scientist cannot make discoveries because one person cannot be a research team to run a laboratory.

Up next, we talk to one deluded man who claims to be "self employed", despite the common knowledge that a company must consist of multiple people in order to exist!

I understand its analogy, but clan by definition is still a group.

the analogy that would fit best would be to compare solo career singers with a rock-band.

and currently you can only have "rock-bands" in the game for have a tradepost and weapon research.

Edited by --Blame--

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Posted (edited)
12 minutes ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

A clan is a banner to rally under. An organisation, a dojo in which to trade and invest in research. Nowhere in that does it say you must have multiple people active.

I can do the absurdist hyperbole too:

This just in, lone scientist cannot make discoveries because one person cannot be a research team to run a laboratory.

Up next, we talk to one deluded man who claims to be "self employed", despite the common knowledge that a company must consist of multiple people in order to exist!

"A clan is a group of people united by actual or perceived kinship and descent. Even if lineage details are unknown, clan members may be organized around a founding member or apical ancestor."

And you're right. One person is not a research team and wouldn't refer to himself as such. A freelancer is not a company. What was your point again? Were you trying to give more examples of things that don't make sense in line with the examples I've made or disprove my point?

Edited by Eklectus
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2 minutes ago, Eklectus said:

"A clan is a group of people united by actual or perceived kinship and descent. Even if lineage details are unknown, clan members may be organized around a founding member or apical ancestor."

And you're right. One person is not a research team and wouldn't refer to himself as such. A freelancer is not a company. What was your point again? Were you trying to give more examples of things that don't make sense in line with the examples I've made or disprove my point?

in general, this is people who want to play solo but who find it unfair only groups have access to certain resources.

I can even defend and understand the side of a ghost clan and it is inactive because the warlord abandoned the game and it has no facility to recruit (and I gave the solution with the interface print in a comment early from the game Elite:Dangerous)

now who just DOES NOT want to have people inside the clan, then I find it more complicated

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1 minute ago, Eklectus said:

"A clan is a group of people united by actual or perceived kinship and descent. Even if lineage details are unknown, clan members may be organized around a founding member or apical ancestor."

And you're right. One person is not a research team and wouldn't refer to himself as such. A freelancer is not a company. What was your point again? Were you trying to give more examples of things that don't make sense in line with the examples I've made or disprove my point?

You would require a point first before there was something to disprove.

A freelancer is not a company, but I didn't say freelancer, did I?

There are plenty of people who are running their own service companies comprised of themselves alone. They are registered, fully-fledged companies, with a single director and a single employee (the same person).

These 'solo companies' have the infrastructure set up to move on and employ additional people if they choose to. There is no imperative that forces them to employ more people in order to remain a company. Sound familiar? That's the clan structure.

Now we've settled the fact that solo clans are still clans, all that remains is the actual problem - the objective fact that not all clan tiers are equally balanced, so 'half capacity' is an inequal measurement of expectations.

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2 minutes ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

You would require a point first before there was something to disprove.

A freelancer is not a company, but I didn't say freelancer, did I?

There are plenty of people who are running their own service companies comprised of themselves alone. They are registered, fully-fledged companies, with a single director and a single employee (the same person).

These 'solo companies' have the infrastructure set up to move on and employ additional people if they choose to. There is no imperative that forces them to employ more people in order to remain a company. Sound familiar? That's the clan structure.

Now we've settled the fact that solo clans are still clans, all that remains is the actual problem - the objective fact that not all clan tiers are equally balanced, so 'half capacity' is an inequal measurement of expectations.

It's just too bad a business company doesn't have "group of people" anywhere in the definition of the word. Also, there could certainly be an imperative that forces a single person running a company to employ more people. Like being unable to or having huge difficulty with handling a massive work-load set out for it... sound familiar?

But, whatever. You, yourself and thy can keep calling yourselves a clan, no matter how absurd it sounds. I've already said my piece. You want to be antisocial and ignore the fact that clans were balanced around having multiple people in them? All the power to you. You want to win gold? Do the extra leg work that comes with it.

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1 minute ago, Eklectus said:

You want to win gold? Do the extra leg work that comes with it.

It's almost like I've said twenty times in here that putting in extra work is not the problem, it's an imbalance in the expected work between clan tiers.

Which you conveniently ignore because you're too busy wallowing in the fallacy that supports your lack of an argument, cherry picking out the bit that you subjectively disagree with in flagrant disregard for the objective issue, probably because you know you're fundamentally wrong but, I don't know, find sport in this little diatribe?

See, this:

6 minutes ago, Eklectus said:

Like being unable to or having huge difficulty with handling a massive work-load set out for it... sound familiar?

Is already false equivalence because it's ignoring the relational factor. There are no 'higher tier' companies magically requiring less effort to get a scaled equivalent amount of workload done. In actuality it's quite the opposite due to the burdens of organisation and management to keep the work flowing. So by this argument of yours, the higher clan tiers, comparatively, should require more relative manpower than Ghosts, not less. Congratulations, you played yourself.

That work also isn't something a company (clan) is forced into by the outside influence (DE).

A more apt analogy of that would be attempting to complete Hema research in a set timeframe. You decided on that timeframe yourself, nothing but more hands on deck can accelerate that, but you're still able to get it done in a longer timeframe since it doesn't come with a deadline. That's a quantity of work (in Warframe: Plague Star, score accumulation event), not a quality of work (in Warframe: endurance scoring event).

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Btw @TheLexiConArtist
despite the conflict of ideas, I invite you later to visit my dojos. I think it's important that there are people to make point against their ideas in a forum.

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В 26.05.2019 в 00:23, A.M.R. сказал:
В 25.05.2019 в 22:55, Jack_1990 сказал:

Now in top 200K O_O

I just saw that, omg I would be really happy if just I managed to hit 20k for my solo clan... I never did get into the insane endurance building in this game never bothered with rivens or all the new arcanes but those trophies are just teasing the completionist  in me 😕

LOL looks like that players used some bugs, now all they deleted from leaderboard and in top only 150k

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15 hours ago, Jack_1990 said:

LOL looks like that players used some bugs, now all they deleted from leaderboard and in top only 150k

Yeah I read the thread about the exploit, still 150K how ?

I did got to 21k just an hour ago, need to farm hexenon for the trophies.

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As a Storm, Mountain, and Moon sized clan, some of us have to bust our asses to get the gold trophy. Ghost clans got it easy.... 20k LOL - Some people do 20k and don't even get a trophy.

PLUS

20K for the Gold Trophy. The EXACT SAME REWARD for a Moon Clan which needs 500 players to participate (Get 4k score)

The amount of work you as a Ghost clan must do versus what a higher tiered clan needs is laughable.

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On 2019-05-23 at 3:14 PM, Gendalph said:

I bet you don't have 2FA on Steam either. Can I please have a link to your Steam account please? I really want all your games.

Don't beg here

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43 minutes ago, -BG-StormFighter117 said:

As a Storm, Mountain, and Moon sized clan, some of us have to bust our asses to get the gold trophy. Ghost clans got it easy.... 20k LOL - Some people do 20k and don't even get a trophy.

PLUS

20K for the Gold Trophy. The EXACT SAME REWARD for a Moon Clan which needs 500 players to participate (Get 4k score)

The amount of work you as a Ghost clan must do versus what a higher tiered clan needs is laughable.

Turn off the smoke machine and take down the mirrors. You're not fooling anyone with this misrepresentation.

Half of a moon's max capacity is 500, but that's not from a range of 100-1000 players, is it? Without uniform distribution of tier sizes "half membership" is a completely nonsense metric that doesn't actually resolve to the same thing for the various tiers. Let's look at the ratio of maximum, expected 'half' and minimum net contributions required again shall we?

  • Ghost clan contributions range from 20k -> 2k per player. 'Half membership' is 1/5th the maximum cost. Contribution ratio 5 : 1 : 0.5
  • Shadow (and Mountain) clan contributions range from 6k -> 2k per player 'Half membership' is 2/3rd the max cost. Contribution ratio 1.5 : 1 : 0.5
  • Storm (and Moon) clan contributions range from 6.66k -> 2k per player. You get the idea. Contribution ratio 1.667 : 1 : 0.5

If your upper-tier clans aren't active enough with players - that only require barely any effort over what is needed for personal rewards - you can downsize to keep those burdens trivial.
"Bust your ass off"? If you lot can't get your gold trophy by pulling together with a mere half of what solo Ghosts had to muster then you placed yourself in that position deliberately.

In fact I can take this a step further. Let's assume:

  1. Your active members will at least get their personal rewards (4k)
  2. You meet the minimum threshold of members for your tier (otherwise you have the option to prune and downsize)

From which we will solve for the laziness required to put you, the load-bearing members, in the Ghost's situation.

Shadow:
10 players attain 40k points.
9 people must be inactive beyond that to require the remaining member(s) to attain personal scores meeting or exceeding 20k (8 inactives requires 2 * 14k, 9 inactives requires 1 * 24k)

Storm:
30 players attain 120k points.
25 people must be inactive beyond that to require the remaining members to attain personal scores meeting or exceeding 20k (25 inactives requires 5 * 20k)

Mountain:
100 players attain 400k points.
88 people must be inactive beyond that to require the remaining members to attain personal scores meeting or exceeding 20k (87 inactives requires 13 * 19385, 88 inactives requires 12 * 20666)

Moon:
300 players attain 1200k points
250 people must be inactive beyond that to require the remaining members to attain personal scores meeting or exceeding 20k (250 inactives requires 50 * 20k)

 

If you can't muster any effort out of 83% to 90% of your player base to help the clan score for gold at all, then your clan has some motivational issues, my man.

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