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[DE]Danielle

(The Jovian Concord: Update 25) Wisp Feedback

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Wisp is an overall fantastically designed frame, she has organic synergies and is extremely smooth to play. Definitely my second favorite frame, after Hildryn. As a vet who has been playing since October of 2014, I am completely and totally sure that this game is finally improving in large, large ways (damn, disruption is clean. Needs a bit more rewards though, maybe an epherma?)

 

However, I have one problem with Wisp. Sol Gate has a very janky opportunity cost compared to her other abilities. By this, I mean it consumes massive amounts of energy which means it's barely usable for any reasonable amount of time. In fact, building for power strength directly hurts its capacities vs higher armor enemies because of the damage ramp up can't keep up with the rapid energy drain. This means that, when building for power strength, you are at an inherent disadvantage when using this ability. Making an ability more powerful should never render it nearly completely useless.

 

So what do I believe should be done?

 

Simple, it requires way too much energy to use. This isn't Danse Macabre, this is a wide cone, not a far ranged AoE rapidly adapting lightshow. So it needs to have the energy cost of a cone. I think 7 energy per second would be fine, maybe 9. The efficiency cap can stay, that's fine. My problem is that using this ability is literally impossible if you have an abundance of power strength. So a drain of 7 per second would aid builds with high power strength, while allowing high efficiency builds to have much more variability in modding.

 

Also, maybe improving its tick rate to 4 per second would aid it in messying armor. It's a sun laser, kinda expect it to be smooth ya know?

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6 minutes ago, sappinmahsentry said:

Wisp is an overall fantastically designed frame, she has organic synergies and is extremely smooth to play. Definitely my second favorite frame, after Hildryn. As a vet who has been playing since October of 2014, I am completely and totally sure that this game is finally improving in large, large ways (damn, disruption is clean. Needs a bit more rewards though, maybe an epherma?)

 

However, I have one problem with Wisp. Sol Gate has a very janky opportunity cost compared to her other abilities. By this, I mean it consumes massive amounts of energy which means it's barely usable for any reasonable amount of time. In fact, building for power strength directly hurts its capacities vs higher armor enemies because of the damage ramp up can't keep up with the rapid energy drain. This means that, when building for power strength, you are at an inherent disadvantage when using this ability. Making an ability more powerful should never render it nearly completely useless.

 

So what do I believe should be done?

 

Simple, it requires way too much energy to use. This isn't Danse Macabre, this is a wide cone, not a far ranged AoE rapidly adapting lightshow. So it needs to have the energy cost of a cone. I think 7 energy per second would be fine, maybe 9. The efficiency cap can stay, that's fine. My problem is that using this ability is literally impossible if you have an abundance of power strength. So a drain of 7 per second would aid builds with high power strength, while allowing high efficiency builds to have much more variability in modding.

if you dump duration it will drain fast. im currently at 156% duration and my drain is 5.4/s.

Edit: people going for that max str well it comes at a cost. which is why i lowered mine to 200%. or people could use rage/hunter adrenaline because she is an HP tank after all.

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1 hour ago, Xavori said:

As for her 2 power...it's not a travel power.  Well, I guess if you screwed up your build like you obviously did maybe it is, but for the rest of us, Wisp is faster than her decoy once she has Haste mote

It actually moves faster than you, if you give it enough time to. Around 30m, you won't see the difference. But you'll notice it once you've moved 40m+ (Race it in OW, and you'll notice what I mean). It's also a useful tool to reach places which are out of reach, if you don't feel like climbing around or wall jumping a lot. 

 

Btw, it seems to draw aggro for me just fine. It actually works better than saryn's molt for me. Just don't hold 2, and it won't move too fast

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2 minutes ago, EinheriarJudith said:

if you dump duration it will drain fast. im currently at 156% duration and my drain is 5.4/s

1. how much power strength, range, etc. do you have? Mind sharing your build?

2. That's still 10.8/s. To put this into perspective, Exalted Blade can kill enemies in around the same speed yet it has a drain of 2.5/s (because it's meant to be basically excal's main weapon). Now I know, Sol Gate is supposed to be a moment of absolute havoc, power unlimited. But the excessive drain simply does not mesh well with its mechanic of damage ramp  up.

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5 minutes ago, sappinmahsentry said:

1. how much power strength, range, etc. do you have? Mind sharing your build?

2. That's still 10.8/s. To put this into perspective, Exalted Blade can kill enemies in around the same speed yet it has a drain of 2.5/s (because it's meant to be basically excal's main weapon). Now I know, Sol Gate is supposed to be a moment of absolute havoc, power unlimited. But the excessive drain simply does not mesh well with its mechanic of damage ramp  up.

Warframe0088.jpg

adaptation can be replaced with more str, dur, range, or rage/hunter. same for range.

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11 minutes ago, Maka.Bones said:

It actually moves faster than you, if you give it enough time to. Around 30m, you won't see the difference. But you'll notice it once you've moved 40m+ (Race it in OW, and you'll notice what I mean). It's also a useful tool to reach places which are out of reach, if you don't feel like climbing around or wall jumping a lot. 

do you think it would be too much if say she assumed the control of the decoy allowing you to move around and use breach surge to get a better sense of where to teleport and if you dont teleport you just go back to where your body is?

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1 hour ago, EinheriarJudith said:

if sol gate did bad damage i wouldnt be able to kill 160 corrupted bombards which in fact i still can. they increased tic rate which most people were asking for. you are looking for press 4 to win. the thing i like best about wisp is you have to put some effort in to get alot of damage 3+4 kills anything.

I clearly say i don't want that because i hate that. i've tried with 224 % str (balanced) and 264 i think now (just a test not full build). From before i honestly see nothing much better than before. Ofc "Effort". Don't talk about effort in this game . ther's not really room for that . That was just an opinion, and i also said "FOR EXAMPLE" I didn't ask for something directly. And pls stop write about "effort" when actually your "effort" is test something in simulacrum instead in a real mission , endless or not. I know Sol gate deal some damage ecc but in my opinion is not enough. And is not even far away from be good without be a "Press 4 , move your mouse, gg" (mesa).

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9 minutes ago, MarketShark said:

I clearly say i don't want that because i hate that. i've tried with 224 % str (balanced) and 264 i think now (just a test not full build). From before i honestly see nothing much better than before. Ofc "Effort". Don't talk about effort in this game . ther's not really room for that . That was just an opinion, and i also said "FOR EXAMPLE" I didn't ask for something directly. And pls stop write about "effort" when actually your "effort" is test something in simulacrum instead in a real mission , endless or not. I know Sol gate deal some damage ecc but in my opinion is not enough. And is not even far away from be good without be a "Press 4 , move your mouse, gg" (mesa).

you mad that i used a tool DE provided for us to test build output? get real. effort is a real thing in this game. look at nidus. you have to build stacks before virulence even becomes a wrecking ball. hydroid requires either players shoot into undertow or using tempest barrage over the top of undertow at which point it deletes enemies.

you definitely want press 4 win if you even think sol gate's damage is not good enough (which in fact it is).

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3 minutes ago, EinheriarJudith said:

you mad that i used a tool DE provided for us to test build output? get real. effort is a real thing in this game. look at nidus. you have to build stacks before virulence even becomes a wrecking ball. hydroid requires either players shoot into undertow or using tempest barrage over the top of undertow at which point it deletes enemies.

you definitely want press 4 win if you even think sol gate's damage is not good enough (which in fact it is). 

I have nothing against simulacrum, i use it like many other players do. BUT you (in general) can't use the simulacrum and say "oh well here works fine, it will works fine too in every other single situations". Simple no. So many differences, variants.

4 minutes ago, EinheriarJudith said:

you definitely want press 4 win if you even think sol gate's damage is not good enough (which in fact it is)

It's a fact because YOU say that? Because many other, even more players that actually don't use forums think exatly the opposite. I clearly state that i don't want a press 4 to win, Like Mesa ecc ecc because i don't like it and i don't use warframe that have an ability like that. So really, grow up and stop repeat that. Is not really educate make a statement like that. You are not in my mind, you don't know me.

8 minutes ago, EinheriarJudith said:

effort is a real thing in this game. look at nidus. you have to build stacks before virulence even becomes a wrecking ball.

Enter mission, press 2 press 1. this is not Effort. is this truly effort? Oh god please bless this guy. I can understand Hydroid but Nidus?

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Why not add a condition for deploying all 3 reservoirs? When moving with a squad or even just 1 teammate having to reposition all 3 requires too many button presses. Maybe if you are crouched you can hold 1 to deploy one of each at once?

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41 minutes ago, Maka.Bones said:

It actually moves faster than you, if you give it enough time to. Around 30m, you won't see the difference. But you'll notice it once you've moved 40m+ (Race it in OW, and you'll notice what I mean). It's also a useful tool to reach places which are out of reach, if you don't feel like climbing around or wall jumping a lot. 

 

Btw, it seems to draw aggro for me just fine. It actually works better than saryn's molt for me. Just don't hold 2, and it won't move too fast

Why do you keep telling this to people when it's just not true? What in the world is the point of posting 2+ times each page telling people they are wrong? 

13 minutes ago, EinheriarJudith said:

you mad that i used a tool DE provided for us to test build output? get real. effort is a real thing in this game. look at nidus. you have to build stacks before virulence even becomes a wrecking ball. hydroid requires either players shoot into undertow or using tempest barrage over the top of undertow at which point it deletes enemies.

you definitely want press 4 win if you even think sol gate's damage is not good enough (which in fact it is).

You found an exploit. You are making it tic well beyond it's normal rate, which is the problem in the first place. In fact: your test shows the only problem with Sol Gate damage wise is that it tics too slowly. Yeah if it were to tic not +30% faster, but like you are showing about +500% (12 times per second is the magical number for beam weapons) as fast is the ballpark of useful. What's great is with punch through this should be even more hillarious for group swiping. The problem is this will become the mainstream use, right before the design team that for some reason hard coded twice a second tic rate into it decides to just remove the part that allows for the exploit, while mutually forgetting that it will do no damage thereafter. Something like, the beam only increasing in damage if it hits the same target consecutively, because if they do that, there goes your system. 

 

30 minutes ago, MarketShark said:

I clearly say i don't want that because i hate that. i've tried with 224 % str (balanced) and 264 i think now (just a test not full build). From before i honestly see nothing much better than before. Ofc "Effort". Don't talk about effort in this game . ther's not really room for that . That was just an opinion, and i also said "FOR EXAMPLE" I didn't ask for something directly. And pls stop write about "effort" when actually your "effort" is test something in simulacrum instead in a real mission , endless or not. I know Sol gate deal some damage ecc but in my opinion is not enough. And is not even far away from be good without be a "Press 4 , move your mouse, gg" (mesa).

Don't worry, you can do the same thing with just intensify, or none if you so choose. The idea is every time the beam leaves an enemy, putting the beam back on it causes a tic of damage. So basically why they changed beam weapons in the first place, there is no reason to do anything but move the beam on and off an enemy in order to increase the damage. Do it faster than twice a second? You have increased the damage/corrosive procs of the ability. Do this for a group, and you can cause many more hits than you could otherwise cause by just leaving it there. The extra benefit is the "increases damage the longer you use it on the same enemy" is per tic of damage, and not limited to a single continuous beam, of damage so doing this exponentially increases the damage in just a few seconds. 

@sappinmahsentry The secret of the build: https://forums.warframe.com/topic/1094901-the-jovian-concord-update-25-wisp-feedback/?do=findComment&comment=10782656

 

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Just now, F8ted said:

~snip~

if it was an exploit. my account would be suspended and they would have patched it out in the recent patch. its not an exploit.

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3 minutes ago, F8ted said:

Don't worry, you can do the same thing with just intensify, or none if you so choose. The idea is every time the beam leaves an enemy, putting the beam back on it causes a tic of damage. So basically why they changed beam weapons in the first place, there is no reason to do anything but move the beam on and off an enemy in order to increase the damage. Do it faster than twice a second? You have increased the damage/corrosive procs of the ability. Do this for a group, and you can cause many more hits than you could otherwise cause by just leaving it there. The extra benefit is the "increases damage the longer you use it on the same enemy" is per tic of damage, and not limited to a single continuous beam, of damage so doing this exponentially increases the damage in just a few seconds. 

I see that, and yes i've tried that. In fact i never stay on one enemy at time. I move the cursor a lot, wnyay the Heat damage proved some cc so you are "free" (not free at all but ok) to move , increase the tick ecc. But even in that case is not enough in many situations sadly. tomorrow, or better today when i will log in again i will try better .

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About the last two hotfix's.

Quote

Multiple tweaks to Wisp’s cloth physics to fix Syandana deformation and reduce cloth wildness. 

Now it even worse than before, Gaoth helmet clothes goes through her lower clothes on her back, so please revert it. She is an ethereal, her clothes should be stiff. Everything was perfectly fine before the update.

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14 minutes ago, EinheriarJudith said:

if it was an exploit. my account would be suspended and they would have patched it out in the recent patch. its not an exploit.

Yeah, it's not really that kind of exploit. They haven't even messed with those that legitimately exploited the Operation by cheesing Demolysts. Just about the only thing gonna get you in trouble exploiting is plat related. For example recently the Neural Sensor droprate was a little cray from Amalgams, Rebecca even hit up the GD post herself saying it was not intentional and not staying, sure enough patchnotes got rid of the problem. Was the Tenno that pointed it out, or anyone in the thread banned? No, it just got removed.

27 minutes ago, MarketShark said:

I see that, and yes i've tried that. In fact i never stay on one enemy at time. I move the cursor a lot, wnyay the Heat damage proved some cc so you are "free" (not free at all but ok) to move , increase the tick ecc. But even in that case is not enough in many situations sadly. tomorrow, or better today when i will log in again i will try better .

Oh I 100% agree. They at least slightly buffed the ability today, but I'm not sure it's addressing the core issue of armor. It is just something while it finds its place in the game. 

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I still think the drain should've been increased 1.5x or 2x  and Corrosive added to Sol Gate damage. >.<

At people complaining about their power strength builds, please stop... you're doing so very wrong. 

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So further testing on Sol Gate.

First, I have 304% ability strength and 199% ability duration with 300 energy total which are the relevant stats for this power.

Just using Sol Gate, I cannot kill a level 130 Bombard Eximus before running out of energy.

Using Sol Gate with all 3 Reservoir buffs, you still cannot kill the Bombard Eximus UNLESS YOU GET CLOSE ENOUGH FOR THE SHOCK MOTE TO PROC.  Basically, without stealth damage, it still sucks.  However, as soon as that shock mote procs and the bombard starts quivering, it's over in one or two damage procs of the beam.

Using Sol Gate with all 3 Reservoir buffs and holding down the fire button.  I ran out of energy without killing it.  In fact, it was worse than the non-shock mote previous test because your energy consumption scales up much faster than the damage.  Even with the shock mote proc'ing, it was worse but at least it died then.

Conversely, I can one shot that same bombard eximus using a good weapon.  This takes no energy at all, and it happens much, much faster than anything I can do with Sol Gate.

So ya, Wisp does not have a 4th power.   She doesn't have a 3rd power either because shock mote is actually a better CC than that power, and it costs no energy after the first time you drop your reservoir.

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6 minutes ago, Xavori said:

So further testing on Sol Gate.

First, I have 304% ability strength and 199% ability duration with 300 energy total which are the relevant stats for this power.

Just using Sol Gate, I cannot kill a level 130 Bombard Eximus before running out of energy.

Using Sol Gate with all 3 Reservoir buffs, you still cannot kill the Bombard Eximus UNLESS YOU GET CLOSE ENOUGH FOR THE SHOCK MOTE TO PROC.  Basically, without stealth damage, it still sucks.  However, as soon as that shock mote procs and the bombard starts quivering, it's over in one or two damage procs of the beam.

Using Sol Gate with all 3 Reservoir buffs and holding down the fire button.  I ran out of energy without killing it.  In fact, it was worse than the non-shock mote previous test because your energy consumption scales up much faster than the damage.  Even with the shock mote proc'ing, it was worse but at least it died then.

Conversely, I can one shot that same bombard eximus using a good weapon.  This takes no energy at all, and it happens much, much faster than anything I can do with Sol Gate.

So ya, Wisp does not have a 4th power.   She doesn't have a 3rd power either because shock mote is actually a better CC than that power, and it costs no energy after the first time you drop your reservoir. 

Exatly. Ofc i don't pretend to kill and Eximus level 130 Bombard with one tick of Sol Gate, but i want , or better hope, a Sol Gate with actually damage vs heavy units. At least when you Amp. the Sol gate, with the mouse, it deal more damage yes. but for me the main problem are tick rate and damage ramp up. Damge ramp up over time is good, but if is too slow most of the time you are gonna die using Wisp 4 ability. I 'm also open to spent even more energy for the Amp mode, but in excange having more damage, enough damage to deal with Bombard , heavy gunner, without oneshotting them like ther's no tomorrow.

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1 hour ago, MarketShark said:

Exatly. Ofc i don't pretend to kill and Eximus level 130 Bombard with one tick of Sol Gate, but i want , or better hope, a Sol Gate with actually damage vs heavy units. At least when you Amp. the Sol gate, with the mouse, it deal more damage yes. but for me the main problem are tick rate and damage ramp up. Damge ramp up over time is good, but if is too slow most of the time you are gonna die using Wisp 4 ability. I 'm also open to spent even more energy for the Amp mode, but in excange having more damage, enough damage to deal with Bombard , heavy gunner, without oneshotting them like ther's no tomorrow.

The thing is, it's unlikely DE is ever going to give us damage equivalent to what you can do with weapons.  This is in spite of the fact that practically any melee weapon can be built to have vastly superior DPS to offensive abilities, cost no energy, and because they're melee, have unlimited ammo.  It gets even more lopsided when you remember that Wisp has on demand stealth, and Warframe has a 700% stealth damage bonus.  She also has that attack rate bonus, so again, more lopsided.  By any measure weapons are better than abilities which is why I so often snark about Warframe being Generic 3rd Person Shooterframe.

There is absolutely no reason to ever use any warframe offensive ability that is purely ability-oriented with the exception of Saryn's spores (because they have no limit on how high they'll scale).  The hybrid DPS abilities like Titania's Razorwing or Mesa's Peacemaker work because they can be modded to be comparable to regular weapons.  Other than that, tho, pick a good weapon, pick a warframe that can self buff (ie. Mirage) damage and go with that rather than ever trying to make the abilities work.

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3 hours ago, Maka.Bones said:

It actually moves faster than you, if you give it enough time to. Around 30m, you won't see the difference. But you'll notice it once you've moved 40m+ (Race it in OW, and you'll notice what I mean). It's also a useful tool to reach places which are out of reach, if you don't feel like climbing around or wall jumping a lot. 

 

Btw, it seems to draw aggro for me just fine. It actually works better than saryn's molt for me. Just don't hold 2, and it won't move too fast

That's not even close to being true.  I left my decoy in the dust when I started to suspect the problem and actually tested it.  We're talking less than half as fast as Wisp can move.

And no, it doesn't draw aggro for long unless you fire it at a wall, ceiling or such.  So that's what I do when I want it to pull aggro.  Usually tho, all I want is the stealth, so I just fire it upwards.  This stealths me, keeps the minions right next to me, and then I blast them in the face.

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Please give her 50% damage reduction when she has three buff of reservoir.

Please give her a 1 second invisibility after roll.  

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3 hours ago, F8ted said:

Why do you keep telling this to people when it's just not true? What in the world is the point of posting 2+ times each page telling people they are wrong? 

If it's not true, then why does mine outpace me every single time?

 

10 minutes ago, Xavori said:

That's not even close to being true.  I left my decoy in the dust when I started to suspect the problem and actually tested it.  We're talking less than half as fast as Wisp can move.

Seriously, are you guys actually holding 2? Because what you're describing sounds like the speed her clone moves, when you only press it to be a decoy. Yes it's slow if you only press it, but if you *HOLD* the button it actually moves faster than you. You'll only outpace it right at the start, but she seems to go faster the longer she's out.

Hold it in open world, in open space, and actually try to outrun it before the timer runs out. Halfway through, her clone will beat you. 

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3 hours ago, EinheriarJudith said:

do you think it would be too much if say she assumed the control of the decoy allowing you to move around and use breach surge to get a better sense of where to teleport and if you dont teleport you just go back to where your body is?

This would be an amazing augment... But how would you do that without letting real one get blown up by an AoE?

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I'd like to suggest adding an aim/zoom function to Sol Gate. It doesn't actually need to zoom but it would reduce the visual effect so you can have not black energy and still see what you're looking at. I'd prefer if it were a toggle like this rather than go full Mirage and ruin the ability so we can still enjoy the visual if we want.

That said most of the time I'm just staring at my mini map to find out where I'm going and can't help but wonder if Primed Animal Instinct was made specifically with this ability in mind.

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So fun! I initially thought i'd get on here and say she was too strong, if you pump ability strength to the max her buffs are SOO strong and she gets to share them!! But the more I play her the more I realize she can be very fragile too. It is a good trade off. Get stuck out without your buffs 40 minutes into a high level survival and it is hard to recover. Her passive really helps with how fragile she can be but in a way that requires you to be active, which is fun. She'll encourage more team work and be very useful while doing it.

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