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[DE]Danielle

(The Jovian Concord: Update 25) Wisp Feedback

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1 hour ago, Blexander said:

How very unfitting.

It's not straight Corrosive, its just procs so you can deal with armor.

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I like her 4th ability and think that portal to the Sun is rather rad, butt:

  • It needs to have a higher tick rate. OR maybe make it so that when channeling it's increased. Damage should be reduced accordingly ofc.
  • It would also be nice if it lowered your mouse sensitivity so you can't spin it around like a madman, at least when channeling the ability.
  • IMO Shock Mote should provide magnetic damage/procs instead of a damage increase. I mean, Sun is known for it's magnetic field.
  • Also would be nice if there was some kind of rift-like effect around the "Sun ball" since right now it feels more like you just spawn the tiny Sun, instead of opening a portal to it.

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19 hours ago, Buttaface said:

Agree with the above. Have noticed people complaining ingame in error sometimes about the shock mote hanging up mobs in missions. It doesn't do that any more than maim, miasma or half a dozen other aoe CC, and does it less so than lots of CC. Mostly, some of the -maps themselves- have a tendency to hang up mobs (Looking at you raised platform Earth, Mars, etc. defense tiles, and at some point in time Akkad tile started hanging up mobs) and those MAPS need to be fixed.

What these people also forget is that it's on Wisps user to have enough brains to NOT use the Shock Mote on leveling maps. No one forces them to place Shock Motes every time. They might as well place more Vitality and Haste motes across the map to support their teammates. And 25% increase to Sol Gate is not as crucial as one would think, especially on leveling maps where enemies die if you just glare at them.

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2 hours ago, Lone_Dude said:

What these people also forget is that it's on Wisps user to have enough brains to NOT use the Shock Mote on leveling maps. No one forces them to place Shock Motes every time. They might as well place more Vitality and Haste motes across the map to support their teammates. And 25% increase to Sol Gate is not as crucial as one would think, especially on leveling maps where enemies die if you just glare at them.

this makes absolutely no sense. if you are talking about Defense, you've already failed if there isnt atleast one AoE frame in the group. shock mote doesnt make things slower. poor placement of shock mote might.

i have never run into a problem of shock mote being an issue of slowing enemies. on survival i place grouping in only 2 rooms. and they are the rooms i move between while killing. on defense i place them only on the pod. same for excavation, defection, salvage.

shock mote is not a problem.

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8 hours ago, Disrevoid said:

I'm almost 100% sure this has already been said but I just found this thread and 26 pages is a lot for my tiny chimp brain:

Wisp's Breach Surge is wholly underwhelming in my honest opinion.
It could be argued this is more "the core of her kit" than the motes are, due to everything having synergy with it, and it has enormous glaring issues:
 

1) 10% chance to release sparks
Why? This is where the majority of her kit's damage is, and it's locked behind an unchanging stat. And yes, while sol gate pumps that 10% up to 100%, you can't use breach surge with sol gate, non-wisp allies can't use sol gate, and sol gate has an enormous energy drain

2) Will not release sparks on killing blows
Now I have 2 reasons that I think explain why this is here, first is so sparks don't kill other enemies making more sparks, which I'm going to assume DE sees as overpowered, and second is because of covert lethality, which honestly I can understand. But when a lot of weapons one-shot enemies anyway this just seems like it's gating Breach Surge's viability for early game clear.

3) Entirely radiation damage
Speaks for itself really, I get that it's the whole wisp theme of bringing in the sun and dealing damage with the sun's radiation but surely you could at least have it do heat damage too, but it makes the sparks much, much less effective on enemies such as the entire infested faction.

 

For an ability with such promise as a chain-reaction based damage ability it's somewhat of a shame it's being held back by it's nigh complete inability to spread by arbitrarily low and unmodifiable percentages.

You should experiment with it more. It is extremely powerful in combination with fast weapons that proc high dmg per tic procs, especially fast condition overload melee. TTK with such weapons is not quite as fast as Saryn 3-1-4 TTK, the fastest TTK I have found on high level armor, but not far off...and it's a radial blind too. After more hours of simulacrum and missions yesterday, I believe Wisp shock mote/surge TTK on higher level armor surpasses high str Rhino Roar, Nezha disc, Banshee Sonar, Ember F Accelerant, previously the close second tier behind Saryn in terms of TTK buffing. Haven't tested some other buffs, M Prime for example. Wisp's 3 is plenty powerful, especially for a frame with so much support and utility.

A few of the better weapons among many tried include gas Phantasma, Ignis W, Glaxion V, Synapse with Hunter Munitions, hybrid BR/CO gas/slash zaw, very many possibilities. Enhanced by Surge, Well-built and equipped TTK on 8 packs of live, firing 165 gunners is well under 10 seconds... with -gas- slash melee. To repeat... -gas- melee... on 165 armor. And the wisp, unlike other frames, takes little/no damage due to the mote and surge CC. Slow weapons? Not a good choice for synergy with Wisp 3.

Back to the topic, the ult remains underwhelming and way too energy intensive given its damage. Sure, you can use the synergies to buff it, then spend all your energy killing slowly and get staggered... or kill whole packs of very high level stuff in seconds with some of the weapons mentioned above while spending 0 energy. At present it's like having a weak radiation/heat option in the weapon kit for funsies. Not a good ultimate, one of the worst. As stated, fine with this as the frame is extremely good otherwise. Nothing is perfect and the frame would be even more OP with a  very strong ult.

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46 minutes ago, EinheriarJudith said:

this makes absolutely no sense. if you are talking about Defense, you've already failed if there isnt atleast one AoE frame in the group. shock mote doesnt make things slower. poor placement of shock mote might.

i have never run into a problem of shock mote being an issue of slowing enemies. on survival i place grouping in only 2 rooms. and they are the rooms i move between while killing. on defense i place them only on the pod. same for excavation, defection, salvage.

shock mote is not a problem.

Sadly, I don't have the luxury of selecting what kind of frames or players I will have in my squad. World is not perfect.

Shock Mote does slow enemies down if you have good range and everyone picks up your motes. Especially because it can strike enemies through walls. People tend to pick your motes up and run around, and sadly, they don't have enough brains to look inside of the rooms where enemies spawn and get tazed, and sometimes they don't even have brains to look behind them.

Personally I think it's a good mote and I actually use it myself constantly when doing stationary missions. 4 shock motes, 1 haste, 1 vitality. Don't get so defensive, try to breathe and sniff some shock motes, maybe.

 

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So was teleporting to Wisps motes and having it reset her aim glide/bullet jumps/double jumps not intentional? Because I can no longer do it. I was actually enjoying playing her as an airborne frame but now she drops like a brick. Was this a stealth nerf or unintentional? If this was not a feature in her kit it should be, because it was the most fun I'd ever had playing a frame. I see no patch note of this getting fixed but I'm 99% certain I was able to do this last week and now I can't.

In addition to possibly adding the parkour moves reset with teleporting, maybe we could start talking about nerfing the damage or doubling the drain on her ultimate and giving it flat out corrosive damage? Making it useful against all enemy types would be great. As of right now fighting 100+ Grineer with it and not having a Sonar Banshee is just really.. really.. bad. I get that you guys don't want people to just max power strength and 4 with her.. but doubling the drain would really hurt the builds of people who do that.. while benefiting those of us who are playing her as a support character and only hopping in and out of her ultimate occasionally for hallway clear.

 

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On 2019-05-30 at 10:44 PM, BabyKurama said:

So I have played her and love her a lot already there is just a wee few things I find is missing

Her 4th. I don't know it just feels like that power doesn't suit her power set. It does look awesome tho.

Crouching - Wisp has custom walking animation yet her crouch is the plain same old one we see on every other frame. Not to mention, it's weird seeing her crouch walk with no feet.

Equipped melee - When you have melee equipped Wisp uses the regular walking animation as everyone else. It would be nice when you moved around with melee in hand that she used her custom animations then 2. 

 

Her passive says you go invis when jump/gliding, i do indeed see my sentinel "stealth" but my wisp at least remains perfectly visible with no indication her passive is doing anything at all.

Not a big deal but to me at least her radial blind knockoff seems hard to tell if its working or not, unless you are closely watching the enemy mobs theres not much of a noticable effect at work to easily let you know what mobs have been blinded.

Her 4th to me seems weird, sometimes it creams mobs in mere moments, other times it doesnt seem to register much of any damage at all even on factions it should facemelt instantly like grineer, the knockback at the end is pretty annoying tho, i would leave that knockback ONLY if you held lmb at some time to boost damage and no knockback if you didnt.

Her decoy to me seems utterly useless, it seems a bit too fast to suit its purpose as a decoy as it flies past mobs a bit too quick and yet it is at the same time too slow to be used as a teleport destination, you can pretty much bullet jump the normal way and do better, i have found no useful purpose for this ability at all.

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4 hours ago, Methanoid said:

Her passive says you go invis when jump/gliding, i do indeed see my sentinel "stealth" but my wisp at least remains perfectly visible with no indication her passive is doing anything at all.

You glow when you're airborne, you might not see it due to your color scheme. Also, she can stay permanently invisible if you can time you jumps right (essentially hop across the map, and you're invisible while doing so)

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On 2019-05-30 at 10:44 PM, BabyKurama said:

Crouching - Wisp has custom walking animation yet her crouch is the plain same old one we see on every other frame. Not to mention, it's weird seeing her crouch walk with no feet.

there's already a mega thread about this (with video for DE) https://forums.warframe.com/topic/1095105-wisp-animation-set/page/5/?tab=comments#comment-10785168 I agree looks pretty weird (wisp melee walk), breaks the mood. 

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I don't have a problem with the 4 fitting into Wisp's kit thematically, but it is objectively underpowered, one of the worst ults in the game, maybe the worst, even after the buff. Fine with this because Wisp is well-designed and powerful enough otherwise to support a crappy ult. But it could be fixed without OPing the frame.

To preempt, the synergies available to Wisp's ult are available to any other weapons she might be using, which will do -vastly- more damage faster than the ult without spending energy. This is a fact and is not debatable. There is no way to build Wisp's ult so that it does more damage than average weapons, let alone powerful, well-built ones, and that makes it superfluous other than possibly a status applicator. Don't buy this? Compare a built out gas phantasma or ignis hitting mobs debuffed with Wisp's "3" and enhanced by the pods to mobs hit with the ult debuffed by the "3" and synergized with the pods. The weapons win convincingly, it's not even close. Again, no debate possible.

So given the extremely high energy drain, the stagger and its objective dps inferiority, why ever use the ult? Looks cool?

How to fix. 1. Remove the stagger and aftercast entirely. 2. Triple the speed of the initial casting animation. The beam should come on instantaneously when "4" is pressed and turn off just as fast sans any aftercast effects. 3. Give it 100% Rad and Heat status on things it hits. 4. Half the drain. Then at least it can be a decent status applicator CC with -some- damage attached and not at the bottom of ults in WF... where it is now. It will never be a room clear AOE cheeze power because it isn't radial, so could be enhanced in these ways without threatening to become the next OP AOE cheeze button press.

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I don't have a problem with the 4 fitting into Wisp's kit thematically, but it is objectively underpowered, one of the worst ults in the game, maybe the worst, even after the buff. Fine with this because Wisp is well-designed and powerful enough otherwise to support a crappy ult. But it could be fixed without OPing the frame.

To preempt, the synergies available to Wisp's ult are available to any other weapons she might be using, which will do -vastly- more damage faster than the ult without spending energy. This is a fact and is not debatable. There is no way to build Wisp's ult so that it does more damage than average weapons, let alone powerful, well-built ones, and that makes it superfluous other than possibly a status applicator. Don't buy this? Compare a built out gas phantasma or ignis hitting mobs debuffed with Wisp's "3" and enhanced by the pods to mobs hit with the ult debuffed by the "3" and synergized with the pods. The weapons win convincingly, it's not even close. Again, no debate possible. The reason this is an apt comparison is that Wisp ult is a beam weapon that really doesn't do anything else, so without more, it should be compared to other weapons.

So given the extremely high energy drain, the stagger and its objective dps inferiority, why ever use the ult? Looks cool?

How to fix. 1. Remove the stagger and aftercast entirely. 2. Triple the speed of the initial casting animation. The beam should come on instantaneously when "4" is pressed and turn off just as fast sans any aftercast effects. 3. Give it 100% Rad and Heat status on things it hits. 4. Half the drain. Then at least it can be a decent status applicator CC with -some- damage attached and not at the bottom of ults in WF... where it is now. It will never be a room clear AOE cheeze power because it isn't radial, so could be enhanced in these ways without threatening to become the next OP AOE cheeze button press.

Edited 7 minutes ago by Buttaface

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other warframe's ults must be nerfed so wisp's 4 won't look so bad.

oh wait... it's too much work to do.

ok. let's nerf 1-3 so it would be in line with 4.

 

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imho after using wisp for a while i rarely if ever use her ult, the decoy is useless, her radial blind is ok but lacks a clear indicator of enemies blinded like radial blind, her best use for me tbh is just her health and haste pods, health for obvious reasons and haste just improves the effective use of weaponry which is the biggest benefit she has.

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The animation stuff is a minor issue to me. The fact that her 4 is entirely unnecessary is a bigger conceptual issue, but she's not the only frame with powers that have no real point. 

Like @Methanoid says, her real ability is Reservoirs, followed by using her 2 as a way to traverse the Gas City. 

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Surge breach should focus more on the homing sparks than the blind. The blinding can be limited by line of sight but the spark effect shouldn't, and the spawn chance should be raised, affected by mods, or have a guaranteed spawn chance on a headshot.

Sol gate also seems to have a low tick rate for damage/status that hurts it's performance, and also seems to spawn fire orbs along the beam that do nothing on contact with enemies.

Wisp is otherwise a really well rounded frame with great aesthetics.

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13 hours ago, Buttaface said:

one of the worst ults in the game, maybe the worst, even after the buff

Lol, no. Vauban, Chroma, Wukong, Ember, etc have worse ults.

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29 minutes ago, (PS4)LoisGordils said:

Lol, no. Vauban, Chroma, Wukong, Ember, etc have worse ults.

Lol, no. Don't even bother claiming you would keep Wisp's ult if you had an aimbot ult like Chroma's that applies -your choice- of status and allows you to keep using your weapons, or that you would take Wisp's ult over any of the exalted weapons in the game including Wukong's. WOF is arguably better because radial, less drain, and again, can keep using weapons while it's up. Only a fool would rather have Wisp's ult than Vauban's, a bad ult is not what makes Vauban weak. Wisp would be absurdly OP with Vortex. As for the "etc." there's Atlas, already mentioned that as a bad ult earlier in the thread... and that's about it as far as "etc" goes. But again, at least Atlas is allowed to keep fighting while the dumblers run around, and they do suck up some aggro.

Wisp has a bad ult because it has weak damage compared to weapons, exalted or otherwise, is not radial, and locks her out from doing anything else.

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I love the little things about wisp. The fluid animations, the little knockback after ulting, the two ways of using 2.

After using a +fire rate riven'd gaze (28 shots per second), the speed of the sun just doesn't do it for me. Wisp's 4 needs more, I'm not sure what it needs more of, but it just needs more!

Her 1 makes her seem like volt-lite, if volt was a D battery, then wisp's a AA.

I like how you can make a trail of speed breadcrumbs to extraction.

She fills her role well, all she needs is a niche in some tiny corner of viability in the endgame (outside of helping new players, of course)

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On 2019-05-31 at 2:48 AM, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

Ok I’ll bite. What exactly is it about the sun laser created by portals is so unfitting for the portal frame?

Because it's a brutal and unsubtle ability on what is otherwise an ethereal and delicate warframe. Portals can translate to literally anything with the right argumentation: with a portal to a black hole and another to some life-giving reservoir (which Wisp has), suddenly you have a tanky CC-focused warframe. With a portal to an asteroid belt, you can summon meteors from the sky, with a portal to some alien dimension you can summon demon servants, with a portal to some weird region to the Void you can curse and debuff targets... and suddenly your warframe's a warlock from World of Warcraft, because WoW warlocks are ultimately just smooth-talking portal mages. Portals are incredibly versatile and can translate to anything; that doesn't mean that literally everything is therefore on theme for a sleek portal warframe just because there's a portal somewhere along the way.

In gameplay terms, though, the ability's also a poor fit because most of Wisp's kit emphasises movement, and is fairly light on ability damage in favor of utility: Wisp's 2 and passive synergize well to carry her into the air and give her some invisibility, her motes give a variety of combat boosts, and her 3 is a Radial Blind with a few bells and whistles added on. Without her 4, her playstyle is therefore that of an agile frame that uses a variety of indirect combat abilities to move around the battlefield with ease and kill weakened enemies with her weapons, all while helping her allies. In this context, Sol Gate really doesn't work, because not only is it a direct damage effect whose interaction with the rest of her kit only comes through forced synergies (i.e. it doesn't actually capitalize on the gameplay they offer), its mode of usage is anything but agile, with only her 2 providing any mobility while in use. Because it doesn't come with any restriction other than Energy, it ends up dominating her gameplay, and the end result is a frame whose potentially amazing playstyle is derailed by an ill-fitting ability.

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My thematic issue with Wisp is that I see nothing in her kit that says "portals" except that, like, DE says "it's portals." Not that it matters, because the clumsiness of the 4th power is much more eloquently described above.

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I honestly hate Volt's speed buff. And I was dreading having to use it to make her beam somewhat useful. Yet I don't mind the speed increase at all on Wisp and I finally found out why. Her floating animation makes the ridiculous speed look somewhat natural while the regular gotta go fast run animation is just too silly to look at.

Wisp is just really fun. Her abilities are seamless and responsive. Her stats are decent and improved by buffs (I don't think glass cannons work in WF anymore). She has nice solo survivability with the invis but she's not as laughably easy to play as Innaros or Valkyr.

She's a good example of the "new" frame design. You have to work for her damage and survivability a bit as opposed to pressing a button. Sure, sometimes DE goes a bit overboard with synergies and timer juggling (hello Harrow) but I still much prefer it to the old design of one-button room clear/invulnerability.

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Wisp ultimate ability feels pretty bad to use , her support abilities are ok but not needed .

I'd rather have Trinity on my team instead of this ... thing .

 

 

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I have mixed feelings about Wisp. On one hand, the frame itself looks phenomenal, has fantastic animations (though I wish she had her own crouch-walking animations), and has a few interesting aspects to her ability set. On the other, I think her kit doesn't really work all that well with itself, as noted by all of the forced interactions between abilities that don't really have anything to innately do with each other. On top of that, while it's less severe than on frames like Khora or Revenant, I think there's a degree of thematic dissonance to Wisp: what I expected and wanted was a subtle and unconventional warframe who used portals and ghost-like abilities in unique ways, but instead most of the time I've spent playing her boiled down to laying plants and shooting big sun lasers.

My point-by-point on the kit:

  • I like the passive, and feel it has tons of potential for interesting uses in combat, though I'm not getting the best visual feedback from the effect because it doesn't seem to cloak Wisp as she's in the air (it does cloak my Sentinel, though).
  • I don't like how Reservoirs play, to be honest. The static reservoirs are a drag in a game where the player is often encouraged to move from place to place, and when I do lay down a reservoir, I'm either casting the health one just to make sure I'm retaining the buff, or I cast all three at once, which takes a bit of time and busywork. The buffs themselves don't particularly seem to generate any novel or interesting gameplay, so much as make me stronger, and on top of that they take a very large amount of visual real estate with the three pods hovering around my frame. The ability itself doesn't feel especially portal-like, even if Wisp's pulling her weird plants out of some portal.
  • On the flipside, I really like Will-O-Wisp. It's a simple, yet unique and versatile ability that fits well with a ghostly frame, and plays well with Wisp's passive.
  • Breach Surge feels like a more fickle Radial Blind. Many others have already noted that the low status chance on the unique proc means it rarely works in regular play, and no part of the ability itself really feels appropriate to Wisp's theme or gameplay. The one aspect I liked about this ability was how Wisp could use it to teleport to her Reservoirs, which I don't think has any relevance to the ability itself.
  • Sol Gate sticks out like a sore thumb on Wisp: on one hand, it's generically satisfying to fire a big laser at a crowd of enemies, but on the other, it really feels like the last effect one should be giving to Wisp. It's far too direct and clumsy for what seems to be a more elusive and ethereal frame, and it not only has poor synergy with her kit (all of its synergies are forced, i.e. the damage/Corrosive boosts with Reservoirs and modified Breach Surge status chance), but actively impedes gameplay her other abilities try to encourage, namely a focus on speed, aerial hit-and-run combat, and misdirection. It's one of those press-4-to-win abilities that dominates the frame's kit, while also making its playstyle far less deep in the process.

Additionally, I've been experiencing VFX bugs where choosing the darkest black from the Smoke palette as Wisp's energy color caused her abilities to become outright invisible.

Overall, I really like the idea of Wisp and the potential behind a portal theme, but felt a bit disappointed with her kit, which I don't think really fits her theme, or even itself all that well. Part of her kit makes me want to just constantly aim-glide and hop from wall to wall, using my clone to redirect myself and mislead my enemies as I attack from all sides, but then the most prominent parts of her kit, Reservoirs and Sol Gate, prevent that from happening by grounding and slowing my frame down constantly. To some extent, Nova and Limbo feel more like portal frames than Wisp, because Nova's 3 translocates people and Limbo shifts stuff from one dimension to another. Summoning stuff from portals could be interesting, but currently Wisp's portals just feel like an excuse to put a bunch of abilities together, none of which really work that well with each other either. Time will tell how well her kit will age, but I'd personally like to see the portal theme fully realized, even if it doesn't happen with Wisp.

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so many complaints about sol gate. id actually like DE to stop making damage 4th abilities. people expecting to replace arsenal with frame powers is whats wrong. i dont mind sol gate at all it has CC (heat, radiation), deals bonus damage to alloy armor (radiation) and strips armor allowing it to do better against armor. nope people want it to delete everything it touches.

increasing the damage of this ability will make it no different than dex pixia. id rather they just replace it with something non damage than to make it into press 4 to win.

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