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(The Jovian Concord: Update 25) Wisp Feedback


[DE]Danielle
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3 hours ago, EnderDDT said:

Wisp is a great warframe, lots of fun and has some nice abilities. There is one problem though, something that will very likely eventually lead to it not doing so well in higher level content.

Wisp's Reservoirs do not affect allies, only warframes, despite the description saying that they do affect allies.

This may seem like a small thing till you think about her Vitality Mote specifically. This means that your warframe may be doing fine but your companion dies over and over. It means that it does nothing to help make Moas and Dogs/Cats survivable in places where they would die over and over. It means that Wisp can't be used on Sortie Defense, Eidelon Hunts, or a lot of other important high level content.

And while pets and companions are useful, that last thing (the fact that she can't be used as an actual support in high level content) is what will almost certainly consign her to the pile of mostly unused warframes.

This is a real shame, since I really do like using her; but if I have to choose between bringing a useful frame to high level content and bringing a fun but not useful frame... then I'm not going to force my team to have to carry me just so I can do my own thing. And this means I can't use Wisp like I otherwise would love to be able to.

Equip life link on your kitty, your kitty gets the boosted health.

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6 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

I'm inclined to agree: I think there's potential to give certain frames mode-switching damage abilities if there's genuine interaction with the rest of the kit (e.g. Exalted Blade and Radial Blind), or if there's a strong enough gate to prevent the ability from being used all the time (e.g. Baruuk's Restraint for Serene Storm), but all too often the ability boils down to "forget everything else, you're doing this thing now". When the ability does not interact with the rest of the kit, the frame becomes a fairly shallow one-ability-wonder when using it (e.g. Revenant or Titania), and when the ability has no proper gate (and Energy isn't a proper gate due to how easily it can be generated at higher levels), there's practically no reason to use anything else but the ability all of the time. Sol Gate can be used on-demand at all times and the only synergy it has with Wisp's kit is forced, so it is not surprising that it would run into those exact same issues. In the future, if DE wants to add more weapon-like abilities, they should make sure those abilities let the rest of the frame's kit breathe and still see proper use.

Sol Gate's synergy IS NOT restricted to only Wisp's 1. Her 4 causes 100% proc chance for her 3, as opposed to mere 10% from all other sources.

Though using her 3 and then her 4 for a couple seconds, rinsing and repeating seems tedious, having 2 wisps in squad would allow one to spam 3 while the other spams 4. If Wisp specters actually used their skills, players could jus use those.

Her 3 makes her 4 DELETE lvl 150+ mobs. The issue isn't players thinking an ability should replace the rest of their arsenal - it's the fact that players aren't reading wikis.

 

 

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2 hours ago, Morticoccus said:

Equip life link on your kitty, your kitty gets the boosted health.

I see you didn't read what I said. So let me repeat it for you.

Not affecting companions/pets is a pain, but not affecting allies means that she can never be used for high level content. Most people get to the point where they can heal themselves if they really need to enough. There are 2 arcanes, a sword mod, certain weapons, health restores, etc. What they can't do is protect objectives, especially mobile "ally" type objectives. Without that her abilities just won't fit into a carefully designed 4 man group, and likely never will.

That said, I'm not sure if this is something I should be putting up here or in the bugs forum.

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Getting away from Sol Gate for a moment. I enjoy the Reservoirs but feel they could be more streamline for the high mobility throughout a mission with a faster casting speed and allowing mote swapping mid cast. I think it would help Wisp perform better in missions that usually have players run through in a single go, example being capture and sabotage.

Any thoughts or criticism on this? 

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Only a few things after 7 forma that i really want changed.

- Smooth out teleport to reservoir

Half the time i end up casting a default Breach Surge just because a unit walked slightly in front of the reservoir, and either have to stop and try again (which defeats the point of teleporting to get there faster), or just move on and settle for hitting half as many targets. This also happens when i stack reservoirs on top of each other. Slightly moving your mouse on a stack of them can get rid of the teleport indicator, even if you are still directly looking at the reservoir and don't break LoS. I would remove the line of sight requirement

-Run/Sprint animation for Melee. Seeing Wisp run like normal just cuz she has a sword is very off putting.

-I want to cast Breach Surge while I am praising the sun

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4 hours ago, giglyfoot said:

Sol Gate's synergy IS NOT restricted to only Wisp's 1. Her 4 causes 100% proc chance for her 3, as opposed to mere 10% from all other sources.

... where exactly did I say Sol Gate's synergy was restricted to her 1? I said Sol Gate's synergy with her kit was forced, and in my first post on this thread I mentioned the forced modifier to Breach Surge's status chance on it. It feels like you had a premade reply ready to go before even reading what I had to say.

4 hours ago, giglyfoot said:

Though using her 3 and then her 4 for a couple seconds, rinsing and repeating seems tedious, having 2 wisps in squad would allow one to spam 3 while the other spams 4. If Wisp specters actually used their skills, players could jus use those.

And somehow requiring two players to pick the same frame, just to spam one ability on each end, isn't tedious or convoluted in any way?

4 hours ago, giglyfoot said:

Her 3 makes her 4 DELETE lvl 150+ mobs. The issue isn't players thinking an ability should replace the rest of their arsenal - it's the fact that players aren't reading wikis.

I think you're missing the point entirely here, because the issue is that players don't want an ability to replace the rest of their arsenal: players seem to actively dislike press-4-to-win abilities that dominate their frame's kit and playstyle, and Wisp's 4 is from that same mold, only with a few extra steps in-between. Having to cast some abilities beforehand, which have no innate synergy with her kit, does not prevent the fact that her own press-4-to-win ability has no real place in her ability set, and its strength at killing high-level enemies is not an excuse for its poor design.

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Hello. I have been playing wisp a lot since her release, paid for her on day one and been enjoying her kit a lot and have given her a huge number of forma. but there is one thing that bugs me some times and its the amount of Reservoirs we can have down at once, since they don't stack like some other abilities do when placed on top of one another I would like to be able to place more then 6 down at a time.

because of the number of different reservoirs we have I find it hard on a large map to just have 2 sets down at once and from traversing from room to room its hard to place them down with out losing a set some where else I'd like to have 3 sets down of each so they can be used from place to place and teleport to easier for wisp herself but for other teams mates I think they would enjoy having more down so they don't feel like following wisp every where she goes and make her job a little easier on placement. 

well that's what I would like I know 6 is a big number in itself but not when your putting her reservoirs down in two sets. two healing two speed, two shock. but it is if your just using one or two of her reservoirs like 6 healing across a cross the map but most people enjoy having speed down also and I enjoy the crowd control from shock, so I am finding it hard to have less then the 2 sets down on a a map like interception for every one.

 

TLDR: Would like to have more reservoirs down at once to allow wisp to have 9 down at once allowing her to have more freedom of placements and options.

Edited by .Fire_Fly.
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First and foremost I want to get it out of the way and say Wisp is fantastic From her kit, to animations, she and the Fulmin have managed to relight the fire in me for Warframe; we'll bring that fire bit back later for an Ember post I'm sure... So today's discussion will cut right through to the one thing that just doesn't quite sit right still, yes it's Breach Surge. The ability in it's current form fits Wisp's motif but in use it feels more like baby's first Molecular Prime from Nova. So how do we fix it to be a little more interactive in use, well I hope to add a few suggestions to such.

-Commit to the Molecular Prime vision and remove this weird line of sight thing Breach Surge currently has. Decent size, gradual spread over duration and range, blind and current proc effects. This would likely be the easiest quick fix. It's not pretty but it's a small quality of life that would give just enough to the ability.

-Make the damage proc chance affected by ability power or generally increase the current static proc chance. Higher chance, general better use over time and stat commitment. This has another added benefit of helping the lesser geared as much as the higher geared player.

-Allow the surge procs to attack multiple enemies in a small AOE rather than a singular. The current model of one guaranteed proc on enemy death is neat but doesn't add much on average. The change would give Wisp some easier and immediate AOE in lower end missions that aren't around turning the sun into a deadly laser. Besides, procing a Pax Seeker along with a rain of Breach Surge sparks would be pretty fun.

-The final suggestion involves a tuning up of game mechanics and a small visual change to Reservoirs as well. Simply put, allow Wisp to see her own Reservoirs through walls up to a certain distance (Range mods based even perhaps) and allow her to teleport to them through any surface as long as she is looking at one. Along with this the targeting could use a little fine tuning and improved hitboxes when attempting to teleport as I've personally at least had some struggles doing so, but that might also just be my old man aiming skills at work. Regardless the ability to teleport rapidly between points across a map would further that wraith like frame motif as well as possibly encourage players to spread out Reservoirs into more than just two bundles of buffs as seems to be the general norm.

Any single one of these I feel might be just a lovely little contribution to the abilities overall use, because as it is right now I honestly forget about it half the time. Hope it helps.unknown.png

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1 hour ago, LameoveR said:

it's already new meta. stop this "buff here, buff there" crap.

 

How is it a buff when I already said they don't stack it just allows more freedom of placement. I am not asking for more damage or more health or more of anything just more placements.

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I personally would be satisfied with a faster deployment since I can see this being abused for buffs everywhere, which in itself isn't bad mind ya - I agree with the idea of having more placements - but I can already see people not being able to move due to reservoirs all over the map increasing load times for any player on low settings.

Other than that I have no issues.

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19 minutes ago, LameoveR said:

yeah, let place those reservoirs all over the Hydron.

once again how is it a problem they don't stack.

and you cant put them all over 3 more wont do much other then aid in team mates being able to access the reservoirs easier then trying to keep track of them. from afar there impossible to see, there is a map way marker but the way marker isn't that easy to see either. even wisp herself has a hard time being able to teleport to the reservoirs with the maps alignments with some parts being vary high and vary low. I see no problem with just 3 more. 

Edited by .Fire_Fly.
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Removing corrosive procs from Sol Gate would be nice. The sun cannot corrode, I have no idea why it was added. I like to believe they did it so she can deal with high armor enemies, and to dab on Ember more than usual.

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2 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Oh wow. I didn't realize you disliked me this much! As it stands though, your narrative that I'm somehow putting up smoke and mirrors just to prove you retroactively wrong is psychotic, and you seem to confuse not wanting to "suck up to anyone" with straight-up just being a jerk on the internet. Also, don't all the positive posts on here kind of undermine your whole point about the forums being this vocal minority of players? Or are they just being a "vocal minority" when they disagree with you?

Lol. And when you see something that enables a playstyle you dislike, and act like you speak for everyone, and call it "not good design" and call for it to be changed/nerfed, imposing what YOU think is better, when it may not be for everyone, is not being a jerk yourself. And acting like you can design a better game. Telling people how the game should be made and remade, and played, to  fit your liking. Sure. You are the epitome of good graces. :clap:

The vocal minority is not whoever disagrees with me. It's whoever is not backed by data. Data says press 4 to win is popular. Please come back when that changes. But of course, pretty sure you and those like-minded with you are actively working on making that change anyway. The whole nerf the meta thing. 

2 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

But I'm not claiming my opinion is common place out of the blue, my opinion is itself echoed by many more people on this very thread, the actual Wisp feedback thread, a fact you'd be able to verify if you weren't too busy projecting delusional narratives upon posters you hated. In other words, DE is expressly asking for feedback, meaning they value the feedback given here, and are getting mixed opinions of Wisp. Comparing this forum population to that of the literal entire human population planet makes strictly zero sense. 

I also verify that there are people saying that Wisp is good as she is now. Implying they like the current 4. While you are against it. I also see people hating on the 4 for cosmetic reasons, not for power reasons and so on. Again, go on and cherry pick and make it seem like everyone's on your team.

2 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

And this is relevant to the point... why? It does not matter what Ash's 4 turned into, what is relevant to my point is that it got changed precisely because the older version was a press 4 to win ability, which DE acted upon. In other words: DE acknowledges negative player feedback on press-4-to-win abilities, and has acted on it already. I also believe Ash's 4 needs another rework, but whether or not the new version is bad doesn't disprove what I said, and trying to personally blame me for the problems with the new 4 comes across as a rather petty and desperate attempt to demonize m

You brought up bladestorm to begin with. You ask me why is it relevant? Lol. Of course they act upon that noisy vocal minority and nerfed it to unpopularity. Whether you had a hand in it personally is irrelevant. And because the people actually using it, were actually playing the game and not fighting for it to be kept,  they are also not there to tell DE to not nerf it before it happens, until it was too late. And once the nerf is done, you know DE doesn't walk back on their "fixes" often. Or else Ember would have gotten a rework by now. Which is pretty much what you all are counting on, no? For the eventual day they nerf Saryn or whatever most-nerf-needed frame you all are aiming at.  It doesn't take a genius to understand.

It's k. Keep nerfing the meta. Meta players will just go down the list of next strongest until you run out of things to nerf and you will realize you created a game where there's literally no point farming anything because everything is the same. Just so you know. I don't main anything. So I actually am not personally invested in any warframe being hit by you nerf callers. But I do like it when getting a new frame results in new niche ways to play the game. When I got Rhino and Frost, one felt like a solid tank, and another felt like a good objective protector. When I got Saryn, it felt like a solid addition to clear trash mobs. When I got Mesa, it felt like a good addition to gun down a weak boss quickly. When I got Chroma, it felt like a good addition to kill endgame bosses like Eidolons. When I got Limbo, Loki, they were good additions for Spy. Each was a tool fulfilling good purposes. Recently, the new warframes they have been releasing feel very much average, jack of all trades, master of nothing. There's nothing none of them can do that another already does (and often the one that already does, does it better).  I just get them cos MR and fashion. And Hildryn has been getting more use by me lately because she reminds me of a Gundam in her 4th, not because she's better than something else I already have. Wisp is being used by me more lately cos I headcannon her as Dr Strange.  To some other player who doesn't care about fashionframe, all of these new frames are just noise and waste of time, and not even worth booting up the game and farming for.

2 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Strong what, exactly? Because Wisp's ability to teleport to her Reservoirs from unlimited range is strong and impressive, but nobody seems to be criticizing it or calling for nerfs. Could it just be that people have gotten tired of abilities that make the game play itself, and instead want abilities with actual gameplay?

Lol strong to you maybe. I can do similar with Operator Void dashes across a map, Loki switch teleport. Itzal blink. Oh wait, at least 2 of these also have had people consider some sort of nerf before. Also, reservoir teleport requires line of sight. And works well only in very open world maps and modes where you need to backtrack often like Defense and Interception. Things like Capture, Exterminate and Rescue and that teleport is pointless. And for open world, we need to have the next bounty objective appear in a direction that you had a reservoir previously placed at for it to be contextually useful as a teleport to backtrack. But just jump on Itzal and you can forget this totally. Oh wait, people said something about changing Itzal too before no?

2 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

And this is in opposition to what I said... why? Players not liking nerfs and players not liking press-4-to-win abilities are not mutually incompatible, and it's rather strange that you'd try to claim as much

... You do realize the nerfs are quite often a result of you all calling for it. So... are you glitching? Or just desperate to refute people line by line, which is the hobby of many forum veterans.

2 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

.. because advocating press-4-to-win abilities is a silly concept to begin with? Have you considered the possibility that it's not the entire world conspiring to silence you on the internet, but simply that you're just wrong and unpleasant?

Or they just could not be bothered to debate with people like you. Because the moment they suggest something that sounds strong. The whole "Oh no not another Saryn" brigade marches in. 

Heck when DE previews a new warframe with anything that smells remotely like press (any button) to AOE destroy, you get the forum brigade up in arms. I seem to recall Wisp and Garuda having different abilities when they were first shown off  on Devstreams. Something about Reservoirs with their own AOE destructive zones and a blender. And the forum brigade went off. 

 

2 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Except I play the game too, and so do many of the people here, as you can check with the /profile command. Unlike the image you're trying to paint of me, I do in fact enjoy the game, I just don't think it is literally perfect, which is why I give critical feedback on here to help it improve. You seem to be assuming that people not posting on the forums all agree with you, which is about as convincing as those politicians who try to register dead people on their voter lists. It is particularly delicious of you as well to trot out this argument all while trying to dismiss the fact that my opinion on Sol Gate is majoritary on this very thread, or really just any discussion space about Wisp

Clearly you play just to find more ways to nitpick what other players are doing that you do not like so you can ask DE to stop them "Mummy, they play in a way that's not like me. Mummy, I sad. No fair. Mummy . Stop them!"

I pretty much do not care if I have a press 4 to win nuker on my team, or 3 nukers, and I barely shoot or melee a thing, or 3 slow players that barely kill anything on my team and are in it for MR fodder ranking, and everything else in between. I generally am chill with whatever I get in public games. And before you assume I press 4 to win only, so that's why nothing matters to me anyway, nope, as I said previously, I am using Hildryn and Wisp more these days for fashion reasons. And unlike most of the complainers on these forums who 1) try to control others in a PUBLIC match 2) failing which they call for nerfs so they can stop having to deal with such playstyles in their games. Which ultimately speaks more about how you and similar people just want to control others.

Yeah, call me a jerk or whatever. I think you all deserve the attitude you get since you all try to impose your views on others while dressing it up as "superior design", "the way I play is objectively better than you", and whatever novel ways you guys attempt to frame it to make it sound like its for the good of the game, and not just trying to control how people play.. . 

2 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Except I didn't say that nobody contradicted my views, I just pointed out that there is clearly only a tiny minority, albeit a disproportionately vocal one, of people praising Sol Gate in particular. Even your own praise for it isn't so much praise as it is bashing other players for daring to criticize it, and accusing them of lesser skill. As such, it sounds like you might be projecting your own insecurities onto others.

Which fits into the idea that people who are satisfied usually don't bother to go on forums to say stuff. They only go on forums when things are going wrong or against their liking.

Edited by Xepthrichros
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On 2019-06-03 at 4:08 PM, Aliothale said:

So was teleporting to Wisps motes and having it reset her aim glide/bullet jumps/double jumps not intentional? Because I can no longer do it. I was actually enjoying playing her as an airborne frame but now she drops like a brick. Was this a stealth nerf or unintentional? If this was not a feature in her kit it should be, because it was the most fun I'd ever had playing a frame. I see no patch note of this getting fixed but I'm 99% certain I was able to do this last week and now I can't.

This please. 

 

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For all of you plebs asking for "more drain, more damage" or "straight corrosive for lvl 100+ enemies, with more drain" or "faster tick rate for lvl 100+ eximus, but less damage" or "all the motes should be combined into one" I have one thing to say to you:

She doesn't need it. It doesn't take long to summon her motes (literally a few seconds). Neither does it take long to kill high tier eximus units with her Lazer.  Swipe her Lazer side to side, and her damage ramps up faster. If you swipe her Lazer across the enemies, she kills anything pretty fast; It's more noticeable & helpful when you're flooded with enemies. Literally she doesn't need it; you just need to put a little bit of work and effort for the kills. What we have now is much better than less damage, and straight corrosive or faster tick rate (which btw ... JUST USE NATURAL TALENT FFS). 

 

She's already in a good spot; If you ask for wisp to get buffed up too much, there's just going to be an inevitable nerf.

 

Also a game stops being fun, if everything is just handed to you. Effort and consequence are what keep games fun, engaging, and interesting. So stop asking for too many shortcuts/handouts, or those shortcuts are gonna kill your interest & fun. 

Edit: it's so frustrating to see people complain just because they love staying in their comfort zone. Then later complain that "DE doesn't make any original content" just to later complain about it, when DE actually DOES MAKE ORIGINAL CONTENT.

Well you f**-ers don't even let them do anything!!! It's a miracle the game has gotten this far. How about you just trust the devs for once, and let them finish what they're doing eh?

Edited by Maka.Bones
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Also, why can nullifiers delete the reservoirs? Like I understand removing the buffs on you, but the reservoir itself?... Since they're creatures/spirits she's summoning, why can't they just be suppressed while they're inside the bubble instead? 

Nullifier's mechanics aren't exactly challenging atm; they're just really annoying. Making them impervious to everything won't exactly make them more challenging in a fun way though. Those assassin robots are challenging & fun. The stealth, lazer-shooting spiders are challenging & fun. Those are really fun, even when they melt your face off. Even the jed-skaters that *temporarily* freeze your abilities, are more fun. Nullifier-bubble dudes just feel like a pimple on your face, that you can't pop. Or an itch you're not allowed to scratch. 

Would be nice if they were more threatening/lethal, but less invincible. It would be cool if some warframes could still use some of their abilities when fighting them, depending on the nature of said ability. Edit: Like wisp's 1&4, nidus, exalted weapons that don't require constant channeling, or anything that isn't entirely being held together/generated/manipulated by void energy (just summoned, or *initially* created/dircted by it)

Edited by Maka.Bones
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15 minutes ago, Xepthrichros said:

Lol. And when you see something that enables a playstyle you dislike, and act like you speak for everyone, and call it "not good design" and call for it to be changed/nerfed, imposing what YOU think is better, when it may not be for everyone, is not being a jerk yourself. And acting like you can design a better game. Telling people how the game should be made and remade, and played, to  fit your liking. Sure. You are the epitome of good graces. :clap:

Except I don't simply march in and say "I like/dislike this, bend the game to my whims", as has been the case for your most recent few posts, I make cogent arguments, cite examples, and point to a larger body of players who agree with me, as evidenced within this very thread. It appears you don't really seem able to tell the difference between making a case for something, and simply demanding others do as you say, though the fact that you don't quite seem to understand what does and doesn't qualify as constructive feedback may be the root of your confusion.

15 minutes ago, Xepthrichros said:

The vocal minority is not whoever disagrees with me. It's whoever is not backed by data. Data says press 4 to win is popular. Please come back when that changes. But of course, pretty sure you and those like-minded with you are actively working on making that change anyway. The whole nerf the meta thing. 

And this data is... where, exactly? Which data are you basing yourself on? Because the numbers here appear to contradict what you're saying.

15 minutes ago, Xepthrichros said:

I also verify that there are people saying that Wisp is good as she is now. Implying they like the current 4. While you are against it. I also see people hating on the 4 for cosmetic reasons, not for power reasons and so on. Again, go on and cherry pick and make it seem like everyone's on your team.

Verify... whom? How many people are you verifying? What are your methods? You seem rather intent on appearing like your opinion is objective, except you do not have a shred of supporting evidence to justify yourself, only vague claims that are directly contradicted by reality, as once again evidenced in this very thread. For someone trying so very hard to accuse me of forcing my biases upon everyone, your very attempt to do so here comes across as a tad hypocritical, and the lack of grounding to your claim makes it all the sadder.

15 minutes ago, Xepthrichros said:

You brought up bladestorm to begin with. You ask me why is it relevant? Lol.

I brought up Bladestorm specifically as an example of player feedback leaning overwhelmingly against press-4-to-win abilities, and DE having acted upon that feedback to change the original Bladestorm. You then mentioned that the new version generated mixed feedback, and that this somehow contradicted what I said before because... reasons. You still have yet to explain yourself here, and I'm certainly not going to be doing your job for you.

15 minutes ago, Xepthrichros said:

Of course they act upon that noisy vocal minority and nerfed it to unpopularity.

If these people were a "vocal minority", why did DE act upon it? Why would DE continue to implement changes based on that same kind of feedback if they believed it came from only a tiny, unrepresentative portion of the playerbase? Your claims here make no sense, and appear to be more of a desperate attempt at trying to force a narrative that simply does not exist.

15 minutes ago, Xepthrichros said:

Whether you had a hand in it personally is irrelevant.

Then why personally accuse me of ruining the game with my feedback? You are calling your own arguments irrelevant here, which further demonstrates my above point.

15 minutes ago, Xepthrichros said:

And because the people actually using it, were actually playing the game and not fighting for it to be kept,  they are also not there to tell DE to not nerf it before it happens, until it was too late.

... except quite a few people complained about the new 4, as you yourself mentioned, so once again, your claim is contradicted by existing evidence. By your logic, these people should have continued to happily play the game and ignore the forums, Reddit, YouTube, etc., yet that didn't happen. Ultimately, most of these people didn't even ask for a revert to the old 4, they simply didn't like the new version due to its clunkiness. For all your attempts to push a narrative here, it kind of doesn't really work when you keep contradicting yourself.

15 minutes ago, Xepthrichros said:

And once the nerf is done, you know DE doesn't walk back on their "fixes" often. Or else Ember would have gotten a rework by now. Which is pretty much what you all are counting on, no? For the eventual day they nerf Saryn or whatever most-nerf-needed frame you all are aiming at.  It doesn't take a genius to understand.

... are you sure you're still talking about press-4-to-win abilities here? Because right now it mostly looks like you're just venting at DE's prior nerfs and reworks in the past, and directing that impotent rage towards me for whichever reason. Yes, DE doesn't walk back on their fixes often, and yes, I like many other people am counting on Ember getting reworked, because simply buffing Ember back to what she used to be isn't going to fix the problems she had then either. I fail to see what point you're making here, other than you getting angry when the game changes.

15 minutes ago, Xepthrichros said:

It's k. Keep nerfing the meta. Meta players will just go down the list of next strongest until you run out of things to nerf and you will realize you created a game where there's literally no point farming anything because everything is the same. Just so you know. I don't main anything. So I actually am not personally invested in any warframe being hit by you nerf callers.

... where am I asking for a nerf here? Where did I ask to nerf Wisp? If by "nerf" you mean make a frame actually fun and coherent to play, sure, but I'm not asking to lower the power of most frames with press-4-to-win abilities, I'm asking to give them a good reason to use all four abilities, rather than just one or two. It feels like to you, "nerf" is simply code for "make me require more than a single button press to win the game forever".

15 minutes ago, Xepthrichros said:

But I do like it when getting a new frame results in new niche ways to play the game. When I got Rhino and Frost, one felt like a solid tank, and another felt like a good objective protector. When I got Saryn, it felt like a solid addition to clear mods. When I got Mesa, it felt like a good addition to gun down a weak boss quickly. When I got Chroma, it felt like a good addition to kill endgame bosses like Eidolons. When I got Limbo, Loki, they were good helps in Spy. Each was a tool fulfilling good purposes. Recently, the new warframes they have been releasing feel very much average, jack of all trades, master of nothing. There's nothing none of them can do that another already does (and often the one that already does, does it better).  I just get them cos MR and fashion. And Hildryn has been getting more use by me lately because she reminds me of a Gundam in her 4th, not because she's better than something else I already have. Wisp is being used by me more lately cos I headcannon her as Dr Strange.  To some other player who doesn't care about fashionframe, all of these new frames are just noise and waste of time, and not even worth booting up the game and farming for.

That's all very nice... but why should I care about what you think here? What does this have to do with the point at hand? Whining about the days of Warframe's older design doesn't really say much about Wisp, other than you don't seem to actually like her, even though you are perfectly willing to use her as an excuse to start fights with other people on the internet.

15 minutes ago, Xepthrichros said:

Lol strong to you maybe. I can do similar with Operator Void dashes across a map, Loki switch teleport. Itzal blink. Oh wait, at least 2 of these also have had people consider some sort of nerf before. Also, reservoir teleport requires line of sight. And works well only in very open world maps and modes where you need to backtrack often like Defense and Interception. Things like Capture, Exterminate and Rescue and that teleport is pointless. And for open world, we need to have the next bounty objective appear in a direction that you had a reservoir previously placed at for it to be contextually useful as a teleport to backtrack. But just jump on Itzal and you can forget this totally. Oh wait, people said something about changing Itzal too before no?

This is all very nice... but what is this responding to? Being able to teleport instantly across very large distances exceeds the power of all the other moves you listed, so it is in fact strong by those metrics, except the very reason why nobody's suggesting a nerf is because it requires actual gameplay, has sufficient controls in place, and is unlikely to shrink the game down to some optimal strategy involving it. Meanwhile, Itzal's blink got complained about (by DE at least) because its existence means there is no real reason to use any other Archwing, let alone any other vehicle, to travel through open levels. Even then, the player consensus was that DE should not nerf the ability, but make it more generally available so that they could use other Archwings. Are these players a "vocal minority" as well? Why even write this paragraph, outside of some desperately contrarian attempt to say the opposite of what I say?

15 minutes ago, Xepthrichros said:

... You do realize the nerfs are quite often a result of you all calling for it. So... are you glitching? Or just desperate to refute people line by line, which is the hobby of many forum veterans.

"You all"... ah yes, the collective NPC hive mind I am a part of. You got me there, great way of representing your opponent in an argument, while not coming across as delusional or obsessed with a persecution complex at all.

More seriously though... so what? What does the topic of nerfs have to do with Wisp's 4, Wisp, or press-4-to-win abilities? So much of your argumentation simply does not follow from itself, which makes it hard to understand what you're saying without it sounding like you genuinely believe the Warframe forums are conspiring to ruin your fun. It is hilarious that you would accuse me of attempting to refute you "line by line" even as you trot out irrelevant argument after irrelevant argument out of a pure desire to contradict me.

15 minutes ago, Xepthrichros said:

Or they just could not be bothered to debate with people like you. Because the moment they suggest something that sounds strong. The whole "Oh no not another Saryn" brigade marches in.

... which I've done where? Again, you seem to have me confused with whichever other dozens of people you've deliberately antagonized on these forums.

15 minutes ago, Xepthrichros said:

Heck when DE previews a new warframe with anything that smells remotely like press (any button) to AOE destroy, you get the forum brigade up in arms. I seem to recall Wisp and Garuda having different abilities when they were first shown off,  on Devstreams. Something about Reservoirs with their own AOE destructive zones and a blender. And the forum brigade went off. 

... yes, they did, and they were panned for being boring, not for being too strong. The "forum brigade" criticized Garuda's old 4 because it looked like Revenant's 4 with a new coat of paint, and that same "forum brigade" criticized Wisp's old 3 because the gameplay it encouraged, i.e. to stack Reservoirs in some Defense mission and spam 3, was not interesting in and of itself. Again, your narrative here doesn't work, and instead it just looks like you're looking for every possible excuse to trash talk the forums, forums you inexplicably continue to post in despite your hatred for them and everyone in them.

15 minutes ago, Xepthrichros said:

Clearly you play just to find more ways to nitpick what other players are doing that you do not like so you can ask DE to stop them "Mummy, they play in a way that's not like me. Mummy, I sad. No fair. Mummy . Stop them!"

Giving constructive feedback isn't exactly "nitpicking", though it wouldn't surprise me that it'd be all the same to you. You may perhaps not have the capacity to understand this, but people who give feedback, as in genuine, constructive feedback, do so because they like the game, and want it to improve. If they didn't like the game or want it to improve, they wouldn't bother. On the flipside, it's self-appointed white knights like you who cloud this feedback with so much noise, and who frequently only assume the pretense of defending the game as an excuse to attack other people and throw vitriol their way, which you have done here and on virtually every single one of your posts on these forums. No part of my feedback here points to wanting to homogenize all playstyles, and if you were to look at my post I both celebrate and encourage diversity of play. There is, however, such a thing as good and bad design, which can be shown through examples and aggregated player feedback, and the fact that you personally chose to pick some bad design element as an excuse to start an internet argument does not detract from this. For all your attempts to try to paint me as this intolerant child who can't stand other people playing differently, you have been the one to show the most intolerance here of others' appreciation of the game, and your posts here, which are loaded with petty and immature personal attacks, all boil down to a whole bunch of whining because you're deathly afraid of change, under any form. 

15 minutes ago, Xepthrichros said:

I pretty much do not care if I have a press 4 to win nuker on my team, or 3 nukers, and I barely shoot or melee a thing, or 3 slow players that barely kill anything on my team and are in it for MR fodder ranking, and everything else in between. I generally am chill with whatever I get in public games. And before you assume I press 4 to win only, so that's why nothing matters to me anyway, nope, as I said previously, I am using Hildryn and Wisp more these days for fashion reasons. And unlike most of the complainers on these forums who 1) try to control others in a PUBLIC match 2) failing which they call for nerfs so they can stop having to deal with such playstyles in their games. Which ultimately speaks more about how you and similar people just want to control others.

One of your posts here was entirely dedicated to how the entire playerbase was somehow stupid for not picking 2 Wisps in a mission and having each spam a single ability nonstop for optimal strats, then you exclaiming that you were afraid of Wisp getting nerfed simply because you attached disproportionate importance to her 4. Your attempts to paint yourself as "chill" and tolerant of diverse playstyles fall flat when you directly demonstrate the opposite.

15 minutes ago, Xepthrichros said:

Yeah, call me a jerk or whatever. I think you all deserve the attitude you get since you all try to impose your views on others while dressing it up as "superior design", "the way I play is objectively better than you", and whatever novel ways you guys attempt to frame it to make it sound like its for the good of the game, and not just trying to control how people play.. . 

You have so far been the one to claim that your opinion is objective, and so by metrics that you have conveniently failed to share with the rest of us common people. Your entire posts here smack of a persecution complex, as noted by your continued attempts to lump me with some formless, uniform mass of people who are all apparently out to get you, and conspiring to pull the strings behind Warframe for nefarious purposes. Newsflash: it's all in your head, and even if there were this shadowy cabal of players trying to seize control of the game from the developers (however that'd work), that would still not be an excuse for your openly hostile attitude on these forums. It is pathetic to even attempt to justify yourself on the matter. 

15 minutes ago, Xepthrichros said:

Which fits into the idea that people who are satisfied usually don't bother to go online to say anything. They only go online when things are going wrong or against their liking.

... which itself suggests that you aren't satisfied with something. Tell me, what brings you here to the forums, if everything in Warframe is fine and dandy? But also, your claim here demonstrates a serious flaw in logic: even if one were to concede that only people unsatisfied with the game went on the forums (and this is proven false by the many threads and posts praising the game, or inserting praise alongside their criticism), this would itself not imply that all of the players critical of Warframe are on the forums, which is the claim you seem to want to make. Not only do you misunderstand sample sizes and basic statistics in your accusations of all Warframe-related internet spaces being "a vocal minority", you also do not appear to have the best grasp of propositional logic either, which would itself explain the confused and generally incoherent nature of your posts.

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@Teridax68 and @Xepthrichros can you guys please make out in PM? Pls don't flirt with each other, or write long love sonnets, letters, or poems on the feedback forum; keep that private. (Satire)

Please be nice, and remember that this is meant to be a feedback form for the devs. Not lengthy debate. 

Edited by Maka.Bones
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