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(The Jovian Concord: Update 25) Wisp Feedback

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About her passive, im just gonna say that maybe could be better if it was like limbo's passive, cause instead of being flying around for getting it useful, rather be shifting so se could run and turn invisible but she can't dmg other enemies while invis, also keeping in mind that she could have all free mobility while invis.

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, FeJoToRe said:

About her passive, im just gonna say that maybe could be better if it was like limbo's passive, cause instead of being flying around for getting it useful, rather be shifting so se could run and turn invisible but she can't dmg other enemies while invis, also keeping in mind that she could have all free mobility while invis.

That's a cool idea!

I do like the fun of playing "the floor is lava" though. But your perspective/idea also makes sense for the utility of it. 

Edited by Maka.Bones

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Is Energy Conversion expected to work with her reservoirs? I think I got it to work once but I have not seen it work since.

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I imagine most of my feedback has probably been said before in these 33 pages, but since I formaed her several times here is my feedback:

1) I like her reservoir buffs. I do wish you'd give better control options for cycled skills. I've said this before, probably for years now, but giving warframe specific keybind overrides for certain things the way you have in Overwatch as an option would be helpful in addition to giving those specific frames the option to bind each cycled ability directly (IE: bind it to a key that just uses it rather than having to use the cycle system). 

Alternatively, I think you could simply make it so she drops all 3 reservoirs (or however many she currently has when leveling) when you hold 1 in a formation around her (1 in front, 1 to the left and behind 1 to the right and behind) and remove cycling from it completely as it's really unnecessary and adds nothing to her gameplay. Hold 1, press 1, hold 1 again, pres 1 again, hold 1 again, press 1 again if you want it to sit on the same starting reservoir for next time is just clunky. It's not like Ivara where you're cycling for a specific ability for a specific purpose. You're just setting up a buffing station and are making players press an obnoxious sequence of keys in order to set it up completely. You could let her drop 2-3 clusters total and just have 1 icon on the map for a cluster which would also reduce visual clutter on the minimap. That would be a nice QoL improvement, especially in gamemodes where you're moving most of the time. 

2) This is also a neat ability, though not one you really need often in most content. One suggestion would be that when you hold the key for the faster travel form of the ability, maybe have the camera move with the clone so you can more easily control and see where you're going since the purpose of the hold mode seems to be faster travel. I'm not sure exactly how fast it moves and how that compares to parkour, but if it's not really much faster than other methods of travel maybe increase the speed of the held version also. 

3) This seems like a potentially strong ability particularly in higher level content, but I didn't really need to use it much formaing her so I don't know much about the mechanic still. In theory it seems like the sparks would have an issue against armor since you're first dealing with armor of the enemy procing it and then the spark hits another enemy. If both enemies are heavily armored the spark damage would be really weak I think? Maybe the sparks should ignore armor so you're not potentially dealing with armor from two enemies when trying to use the mechanic? In maps where there are both armored and unarmored targets that would potentially let you focus on the unarmored ones to proc sparks that could do a lot of damage to armored ones, but that just seems like interesting strategy added to gameplay rather than a problem. 

4) I didn't really feel the need to use this over just killing things with my weapons, but I guess it has potential. I'd bring back it's ability to pop nullifier bubbles as it seems thematically appropriate (you're opening a portal to the sun and it seems like the suns damage would hurt the bubble). As someone who's played Octavia a lot in the past I also don't buy into the excuse that abilities aren't supposed to affect nullifiers since that's clearly not the case for mallet (unless you finally nerfed it at some point when I wasn't playing). Is it really that much of an issue letting people hit a bubble with this compared to a fast hitting weapon? This is a precise ability compared to mallet being a potentially large AoE. You have to point it at the bubble. It's no more powerful than having a fast hitting weapon with you and pointing it at a bubble and shooting it. 

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I find that the motes from Reservoir are very visually distracting. 

Having the solid motes moving into view between my warframe and the screen was constantly drawing my eyes away from the rest of the action.  It wouldn't be as bad if they were translucent or diaphanous, similar to Baruuk's Desolate Hands or the way Mirage's Hall of Mirrors causes the dopplegangers to fade out when in your direct line of vision.

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7 hours ago, (NSW)draugath said:

I find that the motes from Reservoir are very visually distracting. 

Having the solid motes moving into view between my warframe and the screen was constantly drawing my eyes away from the rest of the action.  It wouldn't be as bad if they were translucent or diaphanous, similar to Baruuk's Desolate Hands or the way Mirage's Hall of Mirrors causes the dopplegangers to fade out when in your direct line of vision.

I don't find them distracting, but this definitely sounds like it would help many other players who would. It's a good compromise for people who think they look cool (like me) and people who notice them too much, or find them visually obstructive despite their small size. 

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I tried to move my convo with teridax68 into PM because I didn't want to clutter the feedback thread. The conversation became constructive/productive for wisp ideas, so I wanted to post those parts on here. Disclaimer: It's a lot to read through, but there are some cool ideas.

 

Spoiler
  22 hours ago, Maka.Bones said:

If you go back and read through pages 20-26 of the feedback forum, you'll see a lot of conversations that I had with other players. We were suggesting being able to teleport to other wisp reservoirs, or being able to summon all three of them, with a timed second interval. 

Why not just condense all three reservoirs into one? In practice, there is very little reason to lay anything but the health reservoir independently of the others (and even then, from experience I only prioritize the health reservoir because it's the only one I want to be able to immediately lay down; the others I'll usually cast immediately after unless I don't have the time). The fact that the buffs are expressed as three floating motes also takes up a significant amount of visual real estate, and is unlikely to scale well with future frames (imagine if you had four different buffer frames whose buffs all covered their allies in a similar amount of stuff). This is, in part, why I suggested a dimensional surge thing with my portal concept, as it would condense all of the buffs in one go, and so in a manner that would take up less space and fit better with a portal/ghost theme.

  22 hours ago, Maka.Bones said:

Someone else also wanted a better use of stealth on wisp, because using her shadow to stay invisible wasn't a good idea on spy missions...  Edit: (neither is using the shadow to teleport across lazers, since it draws agrro. I suggested adding some sort of stealth reservoir, and also adding a permanent reservoir that wouldn't get replaced (or a way to designate one reservoir as "permanent" so it wouldn't be replaced as you kept summoning more)

If the issue is that the shadow draws aggro, why not simply have it only draw aggro against enemies in combat with Wisp? Thus, using it when nobody's alerted wouldn't draw any aggro, and so would work better for stealth. A stealth reservoir would make Wisp's passive redundant, and so require some replacement, while also potentially treading on Octavia's toes.

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Edit: I believe someone else also suggested having her clone place a reservoir (i believe you also did, but someone else might've also suggested it) which would work awesome. That would pair really well with an ide 3 other players mentioned, about having the slow mode of her clone stay in one spot (being able to target where you want her clone to stay)

Being able to control the clone better could be interesting, for sure. If one were to develop on this, instead of firing a clone in a direction, one could simply spawn a ghostly clone, tap to tell the clone where to go, and hold to swap places with the clone.

  22 hours ago, Maka.Bones said:

My concern with all of these ideas is that she's going to seem a lot more functional than most other warframes... even more than ivara. (But maybe not more functional than octavia, who i'm surprised that hasn't been nerfed yet... but also happy, because she's cool and doesn't steal anyone's spotlight)

Wouldn't that make her unbalanced? We gotta be fair to other players too. 

I think a common misconception about balance in Warframe is the idea that DE cares especially about warframe numbers for purposes of nerfs, when in practice warframes only get nerfed when they break the game in some way: Ember didn't get nerfed because she was the strongest warframe around, she was nerfed because her kit let her kill enemies without letting those enemies fight back. Trinity was certainly strong when she got nerfed, but she got nerfed because she could once make her entire team virtually immune to damage non-stop, which broke all difficulty (and she's still broken in some respects). If Wisp performs very well, that's fine, what wouldn't be okay is if she began to utterly trivialize content by removing all interaction between her and her opponents, which the above doesn't look like it would do. This is also why I don't believe giving Wisp portals and an enemy-trapping vortex would necessarily incur nerfs, because neither of those effects are likely to break the game.

  22 hours ago, Maka.Bones said:

I suspect that the reason her "sol gate" has corrosive procs, but doesn't do corrosive damage, is because on ember's rework I suggested that heat and radiation should cause a thing called thermal shock which degrades the structural integrity of materials (that, or it's just melting enemy armor)

I think it's more that corrosive damage tends to be thematically associated with acid: the Sun is certainly hot enough to melt armor, but its PH is not really the player's concern.

  22 hours ago, Maka.Bones said:

Also, another player suggested adding magnetic damage for her sol gate, since the sun has very strong magnetic forces. This sounds like an awesome idea to me. 

The Sun would also likely be able to strike with enough force to create a blast on impact (and thus have Blast and Impact damage), and because of its electrically charged plasma and high concentration of hydrogen gas, it could also be argued to apply Electricity, Gas or even Toxin damage. Splitting its damage into two types I'd say is already enough, though this kind of reasoning is also why I'm not a fan of damage types in general.

  22 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Why not just condense all three reservoirs into one? In practice, there is very little reason to lay anything but the health reservoir independently of the others (and even then, from experience I only prioritize the health reservoir because it's the only one I want to be able to immediately lay down; the others I'll usually cast immediately after unless I don't have the time). The fact that the buffs are expressed as three floating motes also takes up a significant amount of visual real estate, and is unlikely to scale well with future frames (imagine if you had four different buffer frames whose buffs all covered their allies in a similar amount of stuff). This is, in part, why I suggested a dimensional surge thing with my portal concept, as it would condense all of the buffs in one go, and so in a manner that would take up less space and fit better with a portal/ghost theme.

Aesthetics: It would be boring, and wouldn't look as cool; the three different motes look awesome when they spin around wisp and when they spin around the mega lazer.

There's also the balancing aspect. Individually, those buffs are already pretty strong. People have asked to nerf them/wisp because of it. The one thing that keeps it balanced, is that the player needs to be using constant effort to keep all separate buffs active/juggled; It's not an easy "one button-win"

A good half-way compromise is the idea that someone suggested, of summoning all 3 consecutively if the player holds the button after having summoned the first one. It would be able to summon all of them at once (thus saving efficiency) while still keeping the cool aesthetic. 

Tough an augment mod to consolidate all three motes would also be cool for other players who would really like it. 

  22 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

If the issue is that the shadow draws aggro, why not simply have it only draw aggro against enemies in combat with Wisp? Thus, using it when nobody's alerted wouldn't draw any aggro, and so would work better for stealth. A stealth reservoir would make Wisp's passive redundant, and so require some replacement, while also potentially treading on Octavia's toes.

That's a fair point actually. 

SO if i'm understanding you correctly... if combat hasn't started, and enemies aren't alerted, it wouldn't draw eggrolls? (agrro) 

That's a really good idea actually. I wish they had done it this way from the start. 

  22 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Being able to control the clone better could be interesting, for sure. If one were to develop on this, instead of firing a clone in a direction, one could simply spawn a ghostly clone, tap to tell the clone where to go, and hold to swap places with the clone.

I think the idea behind it was something like this:

Initial cast, Tap: the clone spawns from you, but slowly moves to the location you pointed to. SO if you point to a spot on a wall, or a floor, it'll move there, and stay put. If you point elsewhere and tap while it's still active, it'll move to the new location. If you hold the button while  that same clone is still active, you'll teleport to its location.

Initial cast, Hold: The clone spawns from you, moving fast in the direction you're initially pointed to, whle following the targeting reticule like nova's antimatter drop. The only downfall with this, is that you won't be able to move in a different direction from your clone, while holding the button... so maybe this mode should be optional? i'm sure there would be players who would like this as an option, and players who like that the clone moves in a separate direction on its own. 

  22 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

I think a common misconception about balance in Warframe is the idea that DE cares especially about warframe numbers for purposes of nerfs, when in practice warframes only get nerfed when they break the game in some way: Ember didn't get nerfed because she was the strongest warframe around, she was nerfed because her kit let her kill enemies without letting those enemies fight back. Trinity was certainly strong when she got nerfed, but she got nerfed because she could once make her entire team virtually immune to damage non-stop, which broke all difficulty (and she's still broken in some respects). If Wisp performs very well, that's fine, what wouldn't be okay is if she began to utterly trivialize content by removing all interaction between her and her opponents, which the above doesn't look like it would do. This is also why I don't believe giving Wisp portals and an enemy-trapping vortex would necessarily incur nerfs, because neither of those effects are likely to break the game.

I hope that's true. It would also explain why octavia hasn't been nerfed. Though i'll be honest, I don't enjoy playing warframes that make the game mind-numbingly easy (looking at you rhino, inaros, nidus, chroma, octavia) even though i do appreciate them for their strength. That's another reason why i'm scared of buffing anything too much. While it would make them stronger, it might also take away from the "fun" experience of combat struggle and interaction.

I don't think your "portals" idea would do that, but something like consolidating all reservoirs might. Adding corrosive damage might. Placing a stationary "Sol Gate" on choke points, might.  Your "succ" for breach surge might (even though it does sound awesome, if paired with her ghost... it would be a great way to get all the enemies in one location, to shoot them with the giant sun beam)

Making something *too* strong, also kills the fun a lot faster. 

  22 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

I think it's more that corrosive damage tends to be thematically associated with acid: the Sun is certainly hot enough to melt armor, but its PH is not really the player's concern.

That's true, i think DE was just sorta lazy with the mechanic & explanation though. They're already adding a lot of dynamic things into the creation of wisp, so It's easier & more convenient to add corrosive procs as an enchantment mechanic (because it's already an existing asset) than to add a new mathematical mechanic for reducing/melting enemy armor. 

  22 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

The Sun would also likely be able to strike with enough force to create a blast on impact (and thus have Blast and Impact damage), and because of its electrically charged plasma and high concentration of hydrogen gas, it could also be argued to apply Electricity, Gas or even Toxin damage. Splitting its damage into two types I'd say is already enough, though this kind of reasoning is also why I'm not a fan of damage types in general.

That sounds like an awesome "Sol Gate" augment to me though

Edit: The hydrogen gas in the sun, takes the form of superheated plasma. So it wouldn't be gas; it would still be heat and radiation. 

But you're right about the electricity damage, because that plasma carries with it a lot of ionized hydrogen molecules. Which is also what creates strong magnetic currents, and flares/CMEs when coupled with the intense gravitational pressure from the mass of the sun. 

I like how we're talking now. Is this better for you as well? If it is, then we should add this convo onto the forums and continue on there like we're discussing now. 😄

  15 hours ago, Maka.Bones said:

I like how we're talking now. Is this better for you as well? If it is, then we should add this convo onto the forums and continue on there like we're discussing now. 😄

This is definitely better, we can take this to the forums if you'd like!

  15 hours ago, Maka.Bones said:

Aesthetics: It would be boring, and wouldn't look as cool; the three different motes look awesome when they spin around wisp and when they spin around the mega lazer.

I can agree that an electric surge wouldn't be as visually impressive as three orbiting pods, but then again, the three orbiting pods also take up a huge amount of visual space: they are the only buff in the game that take up that much visual real estate, and so by a large margin, and on more warframes than Wisp, which creates a scalability problem (every other frame with a buff now has to compete for visual attention with a very visually noisy effect). If Wisp were the only one to have those motes orbit her, that'd be fine, but those buffs apply to all frames, so there needs to be consideration made for how it affects those other frames and their players as well.

  11 hours ago, Maka.Bones said:

There's also the balancing aspect. Individually, those buffs are already pretty strong. People have asked to nerf them/wisp because of it. The one thing that keeps it balanced, is that the player needs to be using constant effort to keep all separate buffs active/juggled; It's not an easy "one button-win"

I'm not sure that's a great balancing measure, though, because it would mean that the only counter to an overpowered ability would be that it's tedious to lay down, which is a lose-lose for everyone. Personally, I don't think they're overpowered by any stretch, even when put together, but if combining the buffs into a single one required some counterbalance, it should likely come at an increased Energy cost, not more time spent in forced animations.

  11 hours ago, Maka.Bones said:

A good half-way compromise is the idea that someone suggested, of summoning all 3 consecutively if the player holds the button after having summoned the first one. It would be able to summon all of them at once (thus saving efficiency) while still keeping the cool aesthetic. 

Tough an augment mod to consolidate all three motes would also be cool for other players who would really like it. 

Currently, holding is already what's being used to lay down a single mote: considering how the Vitality mote almost always tends to receive priority, an alternative could be to simply have tapping instantly lay down a Vitality mote, and holding would triple the Energy cost to lay down an "evolved" mote with all three buffs, which would also not be replaced unless all of Wisp's current motes are of that type.

  11 hours ago, Maka.Bones said:

That's a fair point actually. 

SO if i'm understanding you correctly... if combat hasn't started, and enemies aren't alerted, it wouldn't draw eggrolls? (agrro) 

That's a really good idea actually. I wish they had done it this way from the start. 

Indeed, that's the idea. Wisp is a stealth-ish frame, and she only wants to draw aggro away from her, rather than towards her against unprovoked enemies. Having the aggro only work against enemies focusing her would make her a lot more functional in this respect, imo.

  11 hours ago, Maka.Bones said:

I think the idea behind it was something like this:

Initial cast, Tap: the clone spawns from you, but slowly moves to the location you pointed to. SO if you point to a spot on a wall, or a floor, it'll move there, and stay put. If you point elsewhere and tap while it's still active, it'll move to the new location. If you hold the button while  that same clone is still active, you'll teleport to its location.

Initial cast, Hold: The clone spawns from you, moving fast in the direction you're initially pointed to, whle following the targeting reticule like nova's antimatter drop. The only downfall with this, is that you won't be able to move in a different direction from your clone, while holding the button... so maybe this mode should be optional? i'm sure there would be players who would like this as an option, and players who like that the clone moves in a separate direction on its own. 

Honestly, I don't think there really needs to be a distinction on the clone's speed, the clone should just be fast as a baseline: in this respect, tap on initial cast to throw the clone in a fixed direction, subsequently tap to move it, and hold to teleport to its location (or even just swap places with it, so you could still keep the clone and pull off more tricks) would probably work the best for everyone. 

  11 hours ago, Maka.Bones said:

I hope that's true. It would also explain why octavia hasn't been nerfed. Though i'll be honest, I don't enjoy playing warframes that make the game mind-numbingly easy (looking at you rhino, inaros, nidus, chroma, octavia) even though i do appreciate them for their strength. That's another reason why i'm scared of buffing anything too much. While it would make them stronger, it might also take away from the "fun" experience of combat struggle and interaction.

I don't think your "portals" idea would do that, but something like consolidating all reservoirs might. Adding corrosive damage might. Placing a stationary "Sol Gate" on choke points, might.  Your "succ" for breach surge might (even though it does sound awesome, if paired with her ghost... it would be a great way to get all the enemies in one location, to shoot them with the giant sun beam)

Making something *too* strong, also kills the fun a lot faster. 

I can agree, but then I think the problem comes from making something too easy or uninteractive, rather than necessarily too strong: a sniper rifle that's hard to aim, but deals a million damage on headshot, is likely going to be far too strong, but would still probably be fun, because it still requires the player to aim and accurately headshot opponents. By contrast, an ability that only gives you 1 extra armor for 1 hour, without stacking, is almost certainly too weak, but more importantly is just a boring ability because it does not generate any interesting gameplay.

In this respect, consolidating reservoirs wouldn't change their base gameplay, Corrosive damage already sort of exists on Sol Gate with its procs, and stationary lasers are unlikely to generate problems when they matter, because defensive tiles are specifically designed to be wide open for enemies to approach from all sides, and not just one chokepoint. Provided the right controls are in place (e.g. Wisp wouldn't be able to succ boss-type enemies), Breach would also be unlikely to eliminate interaction by itself, especially since comboing the ability with Sol Gate, which I specifically intended, would be an added interaction.

  11 hours ago, Maka.Bones said:

That's true, i think DE was just sorta lazy with the mechanic & explanation though. They're already adding a lot of dynamic things into the creation of wisp, so It's easier & more convenient to add corrosive procs as an enchantment mechanic (because it's already an existing asset) than to add a new mathematical mechanic for reducing/melting enemy armor.

The mathematical mechanic isn't new in itself, though, there are plenty of abilities and augments that reduce armor by some amount without applying Corrosive procs, e.g. Polarize, Pillage, Seeking Shuriken, etc. It's likely that Corrosive procs were just simpler for users to understand, and wouldn't make too much difference considering guaranteed procs on a beam weapon translate pretty quickly to 100% armor reduction anyway.

  11 hours ago, Maka.Bones said:

That sounds like an awesome "Sol Gate" augment to me though

Fair enough, you could always have some chromatic augment based on Wisp's energy color or the like, a la Chroma or Excalibur.

  11 hours ago, Maka.Bones said:

Edit: The hydrogen gas in the sun, takes the form of superheated plasma. So it wouldn't be gas; it would still be heat and radiation. 

But you're right about the electricity damage, because that plasma carries with it a lot of ionized hydrogen molecules. Which is also what creates strong magnetic currents, and flares/CMEs when coupled with the intense gravitational pressure from the mass of the sun. 

Hydrogen gas in the sun does take the form of plasma, but you are firing the gas into a room at presumably room temperature, which will cause some of it to cool. Ultimately, it just means that you could make an argument for almost any damage type to come out of Sol Gate. 

 

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Ok...Look....I don't comment on here often. I have been playing this game for a little while and most of my friends on the game are long time veterans....I say this to talk about potential nerfs..

Look....Listen....Wisp scares me. Personally Wisp is the best warframe I have played not Nidus or Inaros. Listen here...This warframe can do so many things....First of all. Thank you.. Second of all....Please can we not nerf this warframe? Pretty please. 

Listen...What do I have to do for this warframe to not be nerfed? Cause I have heard horror stories from Veterans...They say....remember trinity, remember saryn, and the list goes on.

I know you want a balanced game...But to be honest...the AI is not dynamic enough (relies on power nullification and infinite scaling) in terms of how they strategize beating you and how they move to warrant having warframes that have huge vulnerabilities. 

Let me stop...Listen...let me just say this....Playing Wisp I feel good...better than I have in along time playing this game....It is fun...I run into this thing where the other frames feel underwhelming, albeit I CAN do long runs and beat all the content and synergize with other players...but at the end of the day..do I want to go back...not really...and so I find myself like in this weird place with this game.

I had put warframe down...because I really wanted same time releases and when jovian released for PC first I waited. I didnt watch any youtube videos because I didn't want to torture myself like I did with Baruuk....When the update dropped. I got Wisp. I played WIsp and instantly I knew...this was the best thing I have played in warframe.

I don't care what anybody says...what I experienced was a frame that could do so many things. Its power. 

I get it...people get bored when they are OP. And I understand that. Me too. However, there is a difference between being OP and feeling powerful at all times. Some warframes I can get the job done but I felt weak...Like I felt like maybe I dont want to play with this frame anymore.

Listen I am doing a bad job of explaining this. Which is why I dont write on here often.

I feel like this warframe will be nerfed. I really do...I cant see it not being nerfed. so DE if you are reading this...please don't. I mean maybe wukong will be better. Im not gonna say he was completely nerfed, but I was a wukong player and I loved the second ability...And it got taken away. And if that could happen...then nothing is safe because DE knows wukong players love that ability. Its just....man I finally found a warframe that gave me this umph and every second im playing her its like she is dying of incurable will be nerfed disease.

Im losing hope the longer I type. 

 

The frame is good. I have no further comments. I wont even go into why shes good because its obvious. 

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Posted (edited)

@Teridax68 since we're talking a lot, i'd like to suggest that we use the "spoilers" function, to keep our posts more concise. This way our posts won't be taking up so much visual space. 

Spoiler
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I can agree that an electric surge wouldn't be as visually impressive as three orbiting pods, but then again, the three orbiting pods also take up a huge amount of visual space: they are the only buff in the game that take up that much visual real estate, and so by a large margin, and on more warframes than Wisp, which creates a scalability problem (every other frame with a buff now has to compete for visual attention with a very visually noisy effect). If Wisp were the only one to have those motes orbit her, that'd be fine, but those buffs apply to all frames, so there needs to be consideration made for how it affects those other frames and their players as well.

I don't really see how they take up "a lot" of visual real estate.  Garaa's vitrify literally covers the entire player, Mesa's buff spins around people and switches from player to player. So i'm not sure that I can agree with your statement there. However @(NSW)draugath suggested a good compromise for this already; to make it translucent, or diaphanous. 

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I'm not sure that's a great balancing measure, though, because it would mean that the only counter to an overpowered ability would be that it's tedious to lay down, which is a lose-lose for everyone. Personally, I don't think they're overpowered by any stretch, even when put together, but if combining the buffs into a single one required some counterbalance, it should likely come at an increased Energy cost, not more time spent in forced animations.

The balancing factor isn't that "it's tedious" it's that it requires active engagement, some thought/strategy, and mindfulness. You gotta pick accessible spots, that won't be deleted by possible nullifying effects. Gotta be efficient with their use, so you can also use some as crowd control. It's something that you need to be constantly mindful of wthout needing to spam the same button every minute, or constantly using energy to cast them. So it becomes efficient, by being actively mindful and making subtle strategic choices. I constantly change the location of mine real-time, while i'm in battle. Does it feel tedious? yeah a little, but it's nothing that can't be fixed by natural talent.

I also think that if all three were consolidated, then people would never try to actively refresh them or be very strategic/mindful about them. We would just put one reservoir per party member, and maybe use the last two for teleporting or for crowd control. It would become sorta thoughtless.

There are also times/places where I wouldn't want the shock mote tbh. And again there's the aesthetics behind it; 3 different colored motes orbiting your mega-death lazer, looks much cooler than 1 sole mote--or even 3 triplet motes. 

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Indeed, that's the idea. Wisp is a stealth-ish frame, and she only wants to draw aggro away from her, rather than towards her against unprovoked enemies. Having the aggro only work against enemies focusing her would make her a lot more functional in this respect, imo.

I'd still want every enemy to pay attention to it, when the team is engaged in active combat (not getting stealth kills). Because then it would also have a supportive function, by drawing aggro off my team. I've used it often to distract bosses, or when we're flooded with enemies to help protect my teammates. 

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Honestly, I don't think there really needs to be a distinction on the clone's speed, the clone should just be fast as a baseline: in this respect, tap on initial cast to throw the clone in a fixed direction, subsequently tap to move it, and hold to teleport to its location (or even just swap places with it, so you could still keep the clone and pull off more tricks) would probably work the best for everyone. 

If it only moved fast as a baseline, then i wouldn't be very effective at drawing aggro if you don't have time to point at a good spot, or you fumbled on your aim. 

Quote

I can agree, but then I think the problem comes from making something too easy or uninteractive, rather than necessarily too strong: a sniper rifle that's hard to aim, but deals a million damage on headshot, is likely going to be far too strong, but would still probably be fun, because it still requires the player to aim and accurately headshot opponents. By contrast, an ability that only gives you 1 extra armor for 1 hour, without stacking, is almost certainly too weak, but more importantly is just a boring ability because it does not generate any interesting gameplay.

In this respect, consolidating reservoirs wouldn't change their base gameplay, Corrosive damage already sort of exists on Sol Gate with its procs, and stationary lasers are unlikely to generate problems when they matter, because defensive tiles are specifically designed to be wide open for enemies to approach from all sides, and not just one chokepoint. Provided the right controls are in place (e.g. Wisp wouldn't be able to succ boss-type enemies), Breach would also be unlikely to eliminate interaction by itself, especially since comboing the ability with Sol Gate, which I specifically intended, would be an added interaction.

I already explained my take on how/why condensed reservoirs would change gameplay to become a mindless/thoughtless effort. Summoning reservoirs in sequence (if we keep 1 held) would at least let us keep the choice of diversity though. A good compromise might be if we can create a "super" reservoir, that gets augmented with the other ones, if we continue to hold 1. 

Example: 

Tap to switch reservoir type (health) > Hold to summon the health reservoir (it summons the health reservoir) > continue holding 1, and then wisp also augments the health reservoir with speed (now it's a single reservoir, but it has two different buffs consolidated into one)

if you held 1 for 2.5s, it would just summon one reservoir with all 3 consolidated buffs (it would only take up 1 of your reservoir allocations). But if you held 1 for the initial 0.5s, then it would only summon the first reservoir you selected. 

I still think that this would make it a much less mindful/strategic engagement though. (for me, this means it would make the ability less exciting) Part of the fun i have with wisp, comes from actively changing reservoirs based on the flow of combat. The struggle that comes from having a restricted capacity, makes it more entertaining and exciting sometimes. 

Quote

The mathematical mechanic isn't new in itself, though, there are plenty of abilities and augments that reduce armor by some amount without applying Corrosive procs, e.g. Polarize, Pillage, Seeking Shuriken, etc. It's likely that Corrosive procs were just simpler for users to understand, and wouldn't make too much difference considering guaranteed procs on a beam weapon translate pretty quickly to 100% armor reduction anyway.

Yeah, true

Quote

Fair enough, you could always have some chromatic augment based on Wisp's energy color or the like, a la Chroma or Excalibur.

Nah, i don't mean a "chromatic" wisp augment. I meant more like a "supernova" or "black hole/quasar" augment. 

Quote

Hydrogen gas in the sun does take the form of plasma, but you are firing the gas into a room at presumably room temperature, which will cause some of it to cool. Ultimately, it just means that you could make an argument for almost any damage type to come out of Sol Gate. 

I mean yes... literally every element we have on earth, came from stardust lol. Even we did. The thermal expansion/contraction of the air around sol-gate's beam, should honestly cause the air to boil everything around wisp. That by itself would provoke gas damage, and heat damage. The sudden expansion of that superheated air, would create blast damage (especially upon initial opening of sol gate). The ionized gas, and superheated plasma, would create an electric storm around the enemies near the beam, which would also create fluctuating strong magnetic currents that  would disable any electronics and strip any active shields. 

That's the augment i'm talking about. I said it would be like a "supernova" because it would include most damage types. The only ones it wouldn't have, would be viral, and cold. 

@SwitchItOn her reservoirs only benefit ro energy conversion, while the buff is active. If it's not active, then the buffs revert to your lowered power stats. 

Edited by Maka.Bones

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39 minutes ago, (PS4)Derweanq said:

Ok...Look....I don't comment on here often. I have been playing this game for a little while and most of my friends on the game are long time veterans....I say this to talk about potential nerfs..

Look....Listen....Wisp scares me. Personally Wisp is the best warframe I have played not Nidus or Inaros. Listen here...This warframe can do so many things....First of all. Thank you.. Second of all....Please can we not nerf this warframe? Pretty please. 

Listen...What do I have to do for this warframe to not be nerfed? Cause I have heard horror stories from Veterans...They say....remember trinity, remember saryn, and the list goes on.

I know you want a balanced game...But to be honest...the AI is not dynamic enough (relies on power nullification and infinite scaling) in terms of how they strategize beating you and how they move to warrant having warframes that have huge vulnerabilities. 

Let me stop...Listen...let me just say this....Playing Wisp I feel good...better than I have in along time playing this game....It is fun...I run into this thing where the other frames feel underwhelming, albeit I CAN do long runs and beat all the content and synergize with other players...but at the end of the day..do I want to go back...not really...and so I find myself like in this weird place with this game.

I had put warframe down...because I really wanted same time releases and when jovian released for PC first I waited. I didnt watch any youtube videos because I didn't want to torture myself like I did with Baruuk....When the update dropped. I got Wisp. I played WIsp and instantly I knew...this was the best thing I have played in warframe.

I don't care what anybody says...what I experienced was a frame that could do so many things. Its power. 

I get it...people get bored when they are OP. And I understand that. Me too. However, there is a difference between being OP and feeling powerful at all times. Some warframes I can get the job done but I felt weak...Like I felt like maybe I dont want to play with this frame anymore.

Listen I am doing a bad job of explaining this. Which is why I dont write on here often.

I feel like this warframe will be nerfed. I really do...I cant see it not being nerfed. so DE if you are reading this...please don't. I mean maybe wukong will be better. Im not gonna say he was completely nerfed, but I was a wukong player and I loved the second ability...And it got taken away. And if that could happen...then nothing is safe because DE knows wukong players love that ability. Its just....man I finally found a warframe that gave me this umph and every second im playing her its like she is dying of incurable will be nerfed disease.

Im losing hope the longer I type. 

 

The frame is good. I have no further comments. I wont even go into why shes good because its obvious. 

 

@(PS4)Derweanq described exactly how I feel, and exactly what I'm afraid of. Wisp is in a perfect spot right now. I fear that making her too much about "portals" or giving her corrosive, or making her easier to play... would potentially either make her too easy to play, or get her on the nerf radar. 

DE did well with wisp. I really hope that they continue to make similar dynamic concepts, with future warframes. I also really enjoy that her hp, shields, and armor are actually very weak--she's squishy AF--but they gave her strong skills/tools to compensate for her squishiness. 

She's already so fluid, dynamic and fun. She's squishy but powerful, she rewards an engaged and active gameplay, she supports teammates and does damage, she moves through the battlefield fast & gracefully. She can get killed so easily, but her kit gives her so many tools to circumvent enemy attacks or damage taken.... Adding more to her, might instead take away from her. I'm scared of that. 

 

Anyway, that's really my concern. I'm gonna take a break from the forums now, because I feel like i've taken up a lot of space. The devs probably already read plenty from me, and they would probably benefit from hearing what others want to say. It was fun though!

Thank you for wisp, DE!!!! 😄❤️ 

Edited by Maka.Bones
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35 minutes ago, Maka.Bones said:

@Teridax68 since we're talking a lot, i'd like to suggest that we use the "spoilers" function, to keep our posts more concise. This way our posts won't be taking up so much visual space. 

Okay, let's try that, then:

Spoiler
35 minutes ago, Maka.Bones said:
  Hide contents

I don't really see how they take up "a lot" of visual real estate.  Garaa's vitrify literally covers the entire player, Mesa's buff spins around people and switches from player to player. So i'm not sure that I can agree with your statement there. However @(NSW)draugath suggested a good compromise for this already; to make it translucent, or diaphanous.

 

Gara's Mass Vitrify is an area-of-effect ability that does not get directly in the player's view. If you are talking about Splinter Storm, the ability is a cloud of translucent glass shards that do not take up much of the player's view. Mesa's buff is a minor cosmetic effect that affects the player's weapon arm, it does not summon three different objects in constant orbit around the player. Reservoir motes are the most visually noisy ally buff in the game by far, and as evidenced by the player you quoted, I am not alone in pointing out how distracting the effect is. If you were to try to fix this by making the ability translucent, the effect would have to be translucent all the time, and even then it would not stop the motes' orbit from generating constant visual noise.

35 minutes ago, Maka.Bones said:

The balancing factor isn't that "it's tedious" it's that it requires active engagement, some thought/strategy, and mindfulness. You gotta pick accessible spots, that won't be deleted by possible nullifying effects. Gotta be efficient with their use, so you can also use some as crowd control. It's something that you need to be constantly mindful of wthout needing to spam the same button every minute, or constantly using energy to cast them. So it becomes efficient, by being actively mindful and making subtle strategic choices. I constantly change the location of mine real-time, while i'm in battle. Does it feel tedious? yeah a little, but it's nothing that can't be fixed by natural talent.

But none of it is mindful or engaging in practice. Dropping three different reservoirs at the same location each time isn't mindful or thoughtful, and one shouldn't be relying on Natural Talent just to make a casting animation less tedious, especially not on what is meant to be an agile frame. The only time I have found myself not doing this is if I wanted to refresh the Vitality buff, in which case I just dropped a reservoir, then went about doing everything else normally, including laying three reservoirs in one go whenever appropriate. There is no split-second decision-making to be had with three buffs that ultimately all just add power, and aren't all designed to help the player in a pinch (besides the Vitality mote's massive health bonus, hence its one point of distinction).

35 minutes ago, Maka.Bones said:

I also think that if all three were consolidated, then people would never try to actively refresh them or be very strategic/mindful about them. We would just put one reservoir per party member, and maybe use the last two for teleporting or for crowd control. It would become sorta thoughtless.

And how would this be different from the way people use Reservoirs now?

35 minutes ago, Maka.Bones said:

There are also times/places where I wouldn't want the shock mote tbh.

Such as? The range on it is short enough that it's not going to interfere with your stealth.

35 minutes ago, Maka.Bones said:

And again there's the aesthetics behind it; 3 different colored motes orbiting your mega-death lazer, looks much cooler than 1 sole mote--or even 3 triplet motes. 

But then again, if these are just three portions of the same buff that gets constantly applied, why do we need three separate objects? By that logic, why not have a million motes, each with their own color, shape, and orbit path?

35 minutes ago, Maka.Bones said:

I'd still want every enemy to pay attention to it, when the team is engaged in active combat (not getting stealth kills). Because then it would also have a supportive function, by drawing aggro off my team. I've used it often to distract bosses, or when we're flooded with enemies to help protect my teammates. 

If it only moved fast as a baseline, then i wouldn't be very effective at drawing aggro if you don't have time to point at a good spot, or you fumbled on your aim.

If the ability isn't effective because you explicitly made a mistake, that's fine, and should be what should happen. Beyond that, I don't see why a fast-moving clone would be less effective at drawing aggro if it did so automatically on release.

35 minutes ago, Maka.Bones said:

I already explained my take on how/why condensed reservoirs would change gameplay to become a mindless/thoughtless effort. Summoning reservoirs in sequence (if we keep 1 held) would at least let us keep the choice of diversity though. A good compromise might be if we can create a "super" reservoir, that gets augmented with the other ones, if we continue to hold 1. 

Example: 

Tap to switch reservoir type (health) > Hold to summon the health reservoir (it summons the health reservoir) > continue holding 1, and then wisp also augments the health reservoir with speed (now it's a single reservoir, but it has two different buffs consolidated into one)

if you held 1 for 2.5s, it would just summon one reservoir with all 3 consolidated buffs (it would only take up 1 of your reservoir allocations). But if you held 1 for the initial 0.5s, then it would only summon the first reservoir you selected. 

I still think that this would make it a much less mindful/strategic engagement though. (for me, this means it would make the ability less exciting) Part of the fun i have with wisp, comes from actively changing reservoirs based on the flow of combat. The struggle that comes from having a restricted capacity, makes it more entertaining and exciting sometimes.

But then this comes at a significant cost in clunkiness, and ultimately, there's no real on-the-fly switching to be had when the functionality of these motes has you simply refreshing those buffs constantly for permanent uptime. The only true lifesaver of the three, from experience, is the Vitality mote. Having three different types of input to work around a problem when a much simpler and equally effective solution exists I'm not sure is the way to go.

35 minutes ago, Maka.Bones said:

Nah, i don't mean a "chromatic" wisp augment. I meant more like a "supernova" or "black hole/quasar" augment. 

Call it what you wish; if the intent is to add or change elemental damage types, that kind of effect is typically referred to as chromatic, in reference to Chroma and Excalibur's own Chromatic Blade augment.

35 minutes ago, Maka.Bones said:

I mean yes... literally every element we have on earth, came from stardust lol. Even we did. The thermal expansion/contraction of the air around sol-gate's beam, should honestly cause the air to boil everything around wisp. That by itself would provoke gas damage, and heat damage. The sudden expansion of that superheated air, would create blast damage (especially upon initial opening of sol gate). The ionized gas, and superheated plasma, would create an electric storm around the enemies near the beam, which would also create fluctuating strong magnetic currents that  would disable any electronics and strip any active shields. 

That's the augment i'm talking about; The only damage type it wouldn't have, would be cold and viral. 

Okay, but this proves my point: one can argue for virtually any damage type to be part of Sol Gate. Unless your request here is for an augment to split Sol Gate's damage into virtually every elemental damage type, one could argue endlessly over which ones to give the ability.

 

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Multiple things here, couldn't find a centered form for all of this.

Wisp is great. No doubt she's awesome to play, however there are somethings that I have seen and noted in testing that need addressing/clarification. I am a console Tenno and I need some help here. Much of my comparison comes from Devstream #126 versus current patch 25.0.8.

1) Reservoir UI

I love reservoir and all however this is the same sort of problem that I have with frost (different discussion), a lack of information. I have 6 "slots" for reservoirs, and I can see them on the map. However we were shown a UI during her initial showing that showed all of your reservoirs, their types and the slots being used, as well as the current type of selected reservoir. 

My question is what happened to this UI, was it scrapped? If so, why? Do you guys plan a hotfix/update to add this? If so, when?

2) Reservoir synergy with Breach Surge

Again more stuff I love that works incredibly well already. Different problem here. I understand that Breach Surge is a radial blind and I am very pleased with it, however in wisp's showing we were told that it would also pulse off her reservoirs, allowing you to cc choke points and out of sight areas. However you were not able to teleport. I would love to see this ability changed back to the reservoir pulse especially if it stayed a radial blind. The teleport is nice and I would welcome that staying as well.

My question was this a last second nerf or otherwise?  Was it in a hotfix I missed? What happened basically?

3) Wisp Fashion/FX, and Movement

Ok, this isn't too big of one of my concerns and has probably been covered at some point in a thread I haven't checked; but what happened to Wisp and armor. Some pieces are too big, some too small, others are misaligned, and more are somewhat broken. Wisp's animations are definitely some of the best, however she doesn't use them in melee no matter the weapon, stance, or attack combo. 

Fact of the matter is the melee problem is probably a huge chunk of coding, and will probably be released as a fix in melee 3.0. Can you verify that? Or do you have something planned?

The armor/fashion problem is negligible in my opinion, but is somewhat troubling to some other players. Do you have any plans for this as well? 

 

PS: wisp is shown at 25:00 on Devstream #126 and the Breach surge is shown at 28:55 link here: https://www.warframe.com/news/devstream-126-overview

28:55) DE: "Her 3rd ability is about summoning a pretty deadly energy to all those reservoirs. If I tap 3 you see each one bursts out in a damaging effect."

 

TL;DR Wisp is missing a UI (unless it was removed?), a synergy (possible pre-launch nerf), and has a lot of problems with armor and animations. Are they getting fixed/added? If so, when?

Edited by Wizard_Durza
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48 minutes ago, Wizard_Durza said:
  Reveal hidden contents

 

Multiple things here, couldn't find a centered form for all of this.

Wisp is great. No doubt she's awesome to play, however there are somethings that I have seen and noted in testing that need addressing/clarification. I am a console Tenno and I need some help here. Much of my comparison comes from Devstream #126 versus current patch 25.0.8.

1) Reservoir UI

I love reservoir and all however this is the same sort of problem that I have with frost (different discussion), a lack of information. I have 6 "slots" for reservoirs, and I can see them on the map. However we were shown a UI during her initial showing that showed all of your reservoirs, their types and the slots being used, as well as the current type of selected reservoir. 

My question is what happened to this UI, was it scrapped? If so, why? Do you guys plan a hotfix/update to add this? If so, when?

2) Reservoir synergy with Breach Surge

Again more stuff I love that works incredibly well already. Different problem here. I understand that Breach Surge is a radial blind and I am very pleased with it, however in wisp's showing we were told that it would also pulse off her reservoirs, allowing you to cc choke points and out of sight areas. However you were not able to teleport. I would love to see this ability changed back to the reservoir pulse especially if it stayed a radial blind. The teleport is nice and I would welcome that staying as well.

My question was this a last second nerf or otherwise?  Was it in a hotfix I missed? What happened basically?

3) Wisp Fashion/FX, and Movement

Ok, this isn't too big of one of my concerns and has probably been covered at some point in a thread I haven't checked; but what happened to Wisp and armor. Some pieces are too big, some too small, others are misaligned, and more are somewhat broken. Wisp's animations are definitely some of the best, however she doesn't use them in melee no matter the weapon, stance, or attack combo. 

Fact of the matter is the melee problem is probably a huge chunk of coding, and will probably be released as a fix in melee 3.0. Can you verify that? Or do you have something planned?

The armor/fashion problem is negligible in my opinion, but is somewhat troubling to some other players. Do you have any plans for this as well? 

 

PS: wisp is shown at 25:00 on Devstream #126 and the Breach surge is shown at 28:55 link here: https://www.warframe.com/news/devstream-126-overview

28:55) DE: "Her 3rd ability is about summoning a pretty deadly energy to all those reservoirs. If I tap 3 you see each one bursts out in a damaging effect."

 

TL;DR Wisp is missing a UI (unless it was removed?), a synergy (possible pre-launch nerf), and has a lot of problems with armor and animations. Are they getting fixed/added? If so, when?

 

I know her motes are gained as you level the frame - I just unlocked ‘Haste’ and she comes with vitality. My issue is that in multiple instances her reservoirs aren’t being picked up by my squadmates - as they walk through them or are even within the ‘affected area’ by them. 

 

And you’re right - her reservoirs don’t pulse with Surge. Must be an error.

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I find wisp to look quite interesting from what i've seen. 

However, I have a an idea for will o wisp and breach surge (the latter being replaced with a different ability) 

For will o wisp, increase the speed of the specter for tapping the button and when holding the button, wisp creates a portal icon that she can use to teleport to the targeted spot (think reaper's shadow step from overwatch combined with nurse's blink from dead by daylight)

For breach surge, I want to replace the ability with one that works similar to interceptor's wraith strike from anthem. Wisp summons a specter that attacks the closest enemy or targeted enemy. The specter then warps to a number of nearby enemies within specter's attack radius. The specter will wrap to enemies that have already been attacked if specter still has some charges (affected by strength) remaining. If used while undetected, the specter will perform finishers on all nearby enemies. 

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1 hour ago, (XB1)WafflyLearner89 said:

For breach surge, I want to replace the ability with one that works similar to interceptor's wraith strike from anthem. Wisp summons a specter that attacks the closest enemy or targeted enemy. The specter then warps to a number of nearby enemies within specter's attack radius. The specter will wrap to enemies that have already been attacked if specter still has some charges (affected by strength) remaining. If used while undetected, the specter will perform finishers on all nearby enemies. 

Id rather the blind as her 4th is dps with procs. Also it would get rid of her synergy with the concurrent blind... still hoping for my aforementioned questions to be answered. Wisp is in a great spot right now and I hope she doesn't change, I just would like the original things to be covered...

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A small technical nitpick I'd like to see: Currently, motes are given to you at wisp's current ability stats levels, including boosts given in-mission (i.e. nidus, equinox, or boosts from void fissures). But unless you let it expire, you can't get higher stat motes. It'd be nice if the radius refreshed your motes to wisp's current stats, if they're higher than the ones you already have.

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@Teridax68Are you sure that you read, and understood what I said? 

Spoiler
On 2019-06-12 at 7:53 AM, Teridax68 said:

Gara's Mass Vitrify is an area-of-effect ability that does not get directly in the player's view. If you are talking about Splinter Storm, the ability is a cloud of translucent glass shards that do not take up much of the player's view. Mesa's buff is a minor cosmetic effect that affects the player's weapon arm, it does not summon three different objects in constant orbit around the player. Reservoir motes are the most visually noisy ally buff in the game by far, and as evidenced by the player you quoted, I am not alone in pointing out how distracting the effect is. If you were to try to fix this by making the ability translucent, the effect would have to be translucent all the time, and even then it would not stop the motes' orbit from generating constant visual noise.

1)  Here's an example of Garaa's her shatter-shield, which has more objects, move faster, and  takes up more screen space from a distance--than the orbiting reservoirs. The shards aren't see-through btw... they're reflective. They just seem see-through, because they reflect the light around them. Some of those fragments look small, because they're spinning around which makes their shape/size change as you observe them (which would only add to the *visual distracton*) meanwhile the reservoirs stay the same shape, aren't shiny, they blend into the warframe's body pretty well, and they orbit around the warframe *very* slowly. 

074fdcaf4a.jpg

2) Mesa's shooting gallery, literally spins around faster than the reservoirs, and it's one fast spinning ribbon... it takes a significant amount of space, and it's bright AF which would help to visually distract players

latest?cb=20170419112942

Oh and there's also Nekros' army of the dead, which I forgot to mention previously. You definitely can't say that those things don't take up most of your screen, whenever you're playing with another nekros. I can't say how many times i've tried to shoot them... but hey, i'm not complaining. Just making an example to illustrate that these reservoirs actually take very little screen space, when compared to other abilities which actually do. 

In conclusion: No, they actually aren't worse than other abilities that take up screen space. They're actually much smaller, and blend in easier than many other existing effects. 

On 2019-06-12 at 7:53 AM, Teridax68 said:
Quote

The balancing factor isn't that "it's tedious" it's that it requires active engagement, some thought/strategy, and mindfulness. You gotta pick accessible spots, that won't be deleted by possible nullifying effects. Gotta be efficient with their use, so you can also use some as crowd control. It's something that you need to be constantly mindful of wthout needing to spam the same button every minute, or constantly using energy to cast them. So it becomes efficient, by being actively mindful and making subtle strategic choices. I constantly change the location of mine real-time, while i'm in battle. Does it feel tedious? yeah a little, but it's nothing that can't be fixed by natural talent.

But none of it is mindful or engaging in practice. Dropping three different reservoirs at the same location each time isn't mindful or thoughtful, and one shouldn't be relying on Natural Talent just to make a casting animation less tedious, especially not on what is meant to be an agile frame. The only time I have found myself not doing this is if I wanted to refresh the Vitality buff, in which case I just dropped a reservoir, then went about doing everything else normally, including laying three reservoirs in one go whenever appropriate. There is no split-second decision-making to be had with three buffs that ultimately all just add power, and aren't all designed to help the player in a pinch (besides the Vitality mote's massive health bonus, hence its one point of distinction).

I literally explained that I don't always use all three. So no, I don't only cast all three wherever I go; please don't go on assuming what others do.

We don't always want to cast all three because when you're in a spy mission, you wouldn't want to use the shock motes. You wouldn't be able to get melee stealth kills, or to just sneak around unnoticed, and your buff would shock those security drones. When you're in an excavation, or defense, you might want to move the reservoirs often or use 4 shock, 1 hp, and 1 speed mote. In this orb vallis "fractures" event, I was constantly moving some motes around, and if I had to cast an energy intensive, consolidated reservoir 6 times,

If they were all consolidated at a higher energy cost, I would run out of energy to keep myself alive (I wouldn't be able to mitigate damage by using her 2 & 3). I would constantly have an energy drought, and I already run with hunter's adrenaline and a "Decaying Dragon Key. So no ty, I don't want a bigger & unnecessary energy expense, when i can already get the same results at a lower energy cost. 

On 2019-06-12 at 7:53 AM, Teridax68 said:

Such as? The range on it is short enough that it's not going to interfere with your stealth.

Maybe on your build, but what about people who play with boosted range? The shock reservoirs reach pretty far. And then there's also the melee stealth kills, the drones that move past you, and the missions where you have to go "unnoticed" as in no bodies, and only stealth kills. And if you laced the shock mote, move on forward and a random mob encounters your mote, they would suddenly become alerted. Even if the range was 1m, it would still interfere with stealth.

There's also some chokepoints where you wouldn't want to place a shock mote too early on, or it would slow the enemy progress (like during defense waves). And some players simply don't like the shock CC. 

On 2019-06-12 at 7:53 AM, Teridax68 said:

But then again, if these are just three portions of the same buff that gets constantly applied, why do we need three separate objects? By that logic, why not have a million motes, each with their own color, shape, and orbit path?

that...  they're not the same buff dude. They're three different buffs. That's why... where did you even get your logic from?

On 2019-06-12 at 7:53 AM, Teridax68 said:

But then this comes at a significant cost in clunkiness, and ultimately, there's no real on-the-fly switching to be had when the functionality of these motes has you simply refreshing those buffs constantly for permanent uptime. The only true lifesaver of the three, from experience, is the Vitality mote. Having three different types of input to work around a problem when a much simpler and equally effective solution exists I'm not sure is the way to go.

... and how exactly does it come at a significant cost in clunkiness? Because:

1) It would literally reduce the overall cast time, spent on summoning all 3 reservoirs separately

2) It would reduce the "clicking" amount from 6 times, to 1 single time.

3) It would only summon them in succession.

4) outside of the added effect of summoning the other reservoirs when holding it the ability longer than 1s, nothing else would change from what the ability already does. 

It would literally remain the same ability, with the same functionality, except that now you can summon them all in succession, with *one* single mouse click. At which point, they could consolidate into one single reservoir. 

On 2019-06-12 at 7:53 AM, Teridax68 said:

If the ability isn't effective because you explicitly made a mistake, that's fine, and should be what should happen. Beyond that, I don't see why a fast-moving clone would be less effective at drawing aggro if it did so automatically on release.

A mistake that wouldn't happen, if her existing kit wasn't changed. My bad though, i forgot that some people here were perfect lol

Also, other players have already been complaining that it's not good enough at drawing aggro, because it moves too fast. If it always moved at max speed, it would be gone before the enemies could shoot it; it would be ineffective at maintaining aggro. 

On 2019-06-12 at 7:53 AM, Teridax68 said:

Call it what you wish; if the intent is to add or change elemental damage types, that kind of effect is typically referred to as chromatic, in reference to Chroma and Excalibur's own Chromatic Blade augment.

chromatic augments are based on color-schemes as well... not just adding or changing elemental damage. The augment I suggested is just a more potent stellar-beam, and it would add fixed elemental damage; not customizable elements.... so it' not simply "chromatic"

On 2019-06-12 at 7:53 AM, Teridax68 said:
Quote

I mean yes... literally every element we have on earth, came from stardust lol. Even we did. The thermal expansion/contraction of the air around sol-gate's beam, should honestly cause the air to boil everything around wisp. That by itself would provoke gas damage, and heat damage. The sudden expansion of that superheated air, would create blast damage (especially upon initial opening of sol gate). The ionized gas, and superheated plasma, would create an electric storm around the enemies near the beam, which would also create fluctuating strong magnetic currents that  would disable any electronics and strip any active shields. 

That's the augment i'm talking about; The only damage type it wouldn't have, would be cold and viral. 

Okay, but this proves my point: one can argue for virtually any damage type to be part of Sol Gate. Unless your request here is for an augment to split Sol Gate's damage into virtually every elemental damage type, one could argue endlessly over which ones to give the ability.

.... except no... I literally said that It wouldn't contain viral, or cold.. those things wouldn't exist within a supernova explosion lol. It's not an "argument" i'm just saying that those damage types are literally what's contained within the sun, according to factually based science. There's no argument to be made there, unless she's opening a portal so somewhere other than a star lol

 

@DE Devs/ Wisp Feedback:

Since everyone keeps wanting/having different opinions about what they think the reservoirs should/shouldn't do, or look like.... Maybe DE should just make them into another form of "exalted pet" and let players color them differently, make them translucent, pick which buffs to take with them, combine them, or mod them with different augments for different effects. 

Also add a plain "open portal" as one of the usable abilities for her 1...  Edit: and maybe make one "A" and one "B" so that we can move "portal a" without changing the destination of "B" 

Edited by Maka.Bones

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Dear DW

1) your updates are major expansions in comparison with other companies  :) Excellent work

1 1/2) - thank you for return of Nora and Wolf shop - I need that nitane to build Vauban

2) Love love love Wisp's current playstyle and her buffs. PLEASE DO NOT NERF especially  as none of her buffs/spells  annoy other players!  With the right cards I can fast melee  zapped enemies and do not feel at all squishy (she's my new go to frame (yes  bought with plat)

3) New void relic gameplay (void cabbages) is problematic though.  Issues:

- when the relics are unlocked and you finally get to choose your prize;  the text description of the first opened void relic obscures the remaining 3 pictures when this first appears (can this be relocated  so the text appears below the picture?) 

- The pictures displaying the prizes  no longer clearly indicate  the quality of the item ie gold, silver bronze

- options to select the above are hit and miss as buttons/cursor not responding as quickly as previously

4) One of the prizes both myself and another player selected did not appear in our inventory after end of the game.  Ran to the forge to build and noticed it was not there when I returned to my ship.

5) the new layout for this as well as all the timers and buzzers remind me of a casino and new year's eve countdown rolled into one - can we simplify this?

 

Notes:

I'm playing on ps4 console - gc Zzingerau

I have been kicked out of more void relic gameplay  sessions and Cetus more frequently  since this expansion - swearing at the monitor alleviates some of the frustration though ;)

 

 

 

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@Maka.Bones:

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14 hours ago, Maka.Bones said:

1)  Here's an example of Garaa's her shatter-shield, which has more objects, move faster, and  takes up more screen space from a distance--than the orbiting reservoirs. The shards aren't see-through btw... they're reflective. They just seem see-through, because they reflect the light around them. Some of those fragments look small, because they're spinning around which makes their shape/size change as you observe them (which would only add to the *visual distracton*) meanwhile the reservoirs stay the same shape, aren't shiny, they blend into the warframe's body pretty well, and they orbit around the warframe *very* slowly. 

The very screenshot you took clearly shows Splinter Storm being less visually busy than motes, though: there are more objects, but they're smaller, simpler, and more spread-out than the motes, so that they do not clog up the warframe's character model. Also:

translucent: (of a substance) allowing light, but not detailed shapes, to pass through, semi-transparent.

So I meant exactly what I said, and you confused "translucent" with "transparent": notice how the shards let the background colors go through in your screenshot. This makes them even less visually imposing, as opposed to the motes' opaque models, which have their own colors (which are often completely different from the recipient's, thereby adding further visual noise). I find it weird that you'd try to argue that Gara's Splinter Storm is more visually busy than Wisp's motes when your screenshot is a clear demonstration of the exact opposite.

 
14 hours ago, Maka.Bones said:

2) Mesa's shooting gallery, literally spins around faster than the reservoirs, and it's one fast spinning ribbon... it takes a significant amount of space, and it's bright AF which would help to visually distract players

Interesting that you wouldn't pick an actual in-game screenshot this time, let alone gameplay footage, though even the one ability icon you posted disproves what you're saying: Mesa's Shooting Gallery spawns one, thin ribbon that specifically doesn't take up much space or invade the character's model, and the effect itself isn't bright (it wouldn't even make sense to say this, considering it's just based on the frame's energy color). It is utterly bizarre that you would fabricate a completely different interpretation from the same images, and looking at your prior posts here, I don't think it would be unfair to say there is a certain amount of bias clouding your judgment here, particularly as several users already have pointed out how visually busy the motes are.

14 hours ago, Maka.Bones said:

Oh and there's also Nekros' army of the dead, which I forgot to mention previously. You definitely can't say that those things don't take up most of your screen, whenever you're playing with another nekros. I can't say how many times i've tried to shoot them... but hey, i'm not complaining. Just making an example to illustrate that these reservoirs actually take very little screen space, when compared to other abilities which actually do.

... but Nekros's Army of the Dead isn't a player buff, it's a mass summon. Yeah, for sure that ability is visually busy, which is why players keep complaining about it. None of this whataboutism contradicts the fact that several players find Wisp's motes to be too visually invasive, and if there is a problem with other abilities (and there doesn't seem to be with Shooting Gallery or Splinter Storm), it would be better to make all of them less noisy, than just keep adding overly noisy effects to the game.

14 hours ago, Maka.Bones said:

In conclusion: No, they actually aren't worse than other abilities that take up screen space. They're actually much smaller, and blend in easier than many other existing effects. 

Your conclusion is proven directly false by the very images you posted. How do you expect me or anyone else to believe you when the contrary evidence is right there?

14 hours ago, Maka.Bones said:

I literally explained that I don't always use all three. So no, I don't only cast all three wherever I go; please don't go on assuming what others do.

Your anecdotal evidence does not contradict the fact that there isn't much of a thought process required to use the ability well, just as a single person's experience of never pressing 2 on Loki wouldn't justify the statement that Loki would be the worst stealth frame in the game. I challenge you to go into a pub mission and see Wisp players lay less than all three motes at a time.

14 hours ago, Maka.Bones said:

We don't always want to cast all three because when you're in a spy mission, you wouldn't want to use the shock motes. You wouldn't be able to get melee stealth kills, or to just sneak around unnoticed, and your buff would shock those security drones.

... except this has already been answered in my own post, with the fact that shock motes are generally too short-ranged to make much of a difference in Spy missions, or most stealth gameplay for that matter (and stealth melee kills are themselves not optimal for stealth gameplay, as any experienced player knows). In the absolute worst case, simply changing the shock motes to only target alerted enemies would solve the problem entirely.

14 hours ago, Maka.Bones said:

When you're in an excavation, or defense, you might want to move the reservoirs often or use 4 shock, 1 hp, and 1 speed mote.

... why? Buffs of each type don't stack, so you're always better off laying your reservoirs in groups of three.

14 hours ago, Maka.Bones said:

In this orb vallis "fractures" event, I was constantly moving some motes around, and if I had to cast an energy intensive, consolidated reservoir 6 times,

If they were all consolidated at a higher energy cost, I would run out of energy to keep myself alive (I wouldn't be able to mitigate damage by using her 2 & 3). I would constantly have an energy drought, and I already run with hunter's adrenaline and a "Decaying Dragon Key. So no ty, I don't want a bigger & unnecessary energy expense, when i can already get the same results at a lower energy cost. 

... why were you running fractures with a Decaying Dragon Key? Why are you equipping Hunter Adrenaline on Wisp?! Not to be rude, but it sounds like your build is particularly inefficient, which may explain why you're having trouble laying down all three Reservoirs consistently. Even with a negative Efficiency build I was still able to lay down all 3 Reservoirs whenever I needed to, and so in mission types like Disruption where I had to constantly redeploy, and on top of that use my other abilities, especially Sol Gate, on demand.

14 hours ago, Maka.Bones said:

Maybe on your build, but what about people who play with boosted range? The shock reservoirs reach pretty far. And then there's also the melee stealth kills, the drones that move past you, and the missions where you have to go "unnoticed" as in no bodies, and only stealth kills. And if you laced the shock mote, move on forward and a random mob encounters your mote, they would suddenly become alerted. Even if the range was 1m, it would still interfere with stealth.

You're repeating yourself here, though: as mentioned above, stealth melee kills are not actually efficient for stealth (channelling does a better job, to say nothing of Blast/Corrosive damage), and if you're using a build that doesn't work with stealth for stealth, whose fault is that?

14 hours ago, Maka.Bones said:

There's also some chokepoints where you wouldn't want to place a shock mote too early on, or it would slow the enemy progress (like during defense waves). And some players simply don't like the shock CC.

How would it slow progress if the enemies you're shocking are in your immediate vicinity? The shock mote is there specifically to set up kills, and this is a clear case of splitting hairs.

14 hours ago, Maka.Bones said:

that...  they're not the same buff dude. They're three different buffs. That's why... where did you even get your logic from?

I suggest you read what I posted again, because I stated that each mote boiled down to one-third of the same buff. Each mote has a distinct effect (some have two, technically, but let's not worry too much about that), but because these motes tend to be laid down all together, the functional end result is simply that you're constantly getting this one super-buff from Wisp. Arguing that the buff should still be split into three because it's cooler to have more different objects orbiting you is a non-argument, one that you should be acknowledging as entirely subjective and personal.

14 hours ago, Maka.Bones said:

... and how exactly does it come at a significant cost in clunkiness? Because:

1) It would literally reduce the overall cast time, spent on summoning all 3 reservoirs separately

Have you ever tried charging Hydroid's Tempest Barrage to full? Because that's what a 2.5 second cast time is, and it's not popular. At least with the current setup Wisp can space out the cast time over three instalments. By contrast, my own suggestion to tap to lay down a Vitality reservoir, and hold to lay down an upgraded version would reduce the cast time significantly more, to say nothing of my suggestion for portals, where the full buff would be laid down entirely just by tapping.

14 hours ago, Maka.Bones said:

2) It would reduce the "clicking" amount from 6 times, to 1 single time.

So would mine, so this is not an improvement.

14 hours ago, Maka.Bones said:

3) It would only summon them in succession.

Which, as with point 1, would require spending 2.5 seconds back-to-back in the same place to get the full effect. This would be especially clunky for Wisp, who's meant to be a mobile frame.

14 hours ago, Maka.Bones said:

4) outside of the added effect of summoning the other reservoirs when holding it the ability longer than 1s, nothing else would change from what the ability already does. 

Which means your ability won't fix anything, and will simply pile on an extra button input that nobody would use, because there'd be no functional advantage to making oneself a sitting duck for a full two and a half seconds when one could simply lay down reservoirs one after the other. Shortening the extended hold period would create the problem of the extended hold period getting too close to the baseline hold period, meaning that the player might accidentally lay down a mote they wouldn't want (and if there'd be no such thing as an accident, because laying down more motes is always more desirable, that would only further demonstrate that you could just condense all of the reservoirs into one).

14 hours ago, Maka.Bones said:

A mistake that wouldn't happen, if her existing kit wasn't changed.

But then are you or are you not suggesting for her kit to change here, then? I'm not saying the ability should be useless outside of perfect play, by the way, I'm just pointing out that if you "fumbled on your aim", as you yourself put it, then the game's design should not have to bend over backwards to compensate for such a basic mistake, especially since in this case you'd still be drawing aggro, even if you wouldn't be able to draw it from the right direction.

14 hours ago, Maka.Bones said:

My bad though, i forgot that some people here were perfect lol

What is this passive-aggressive comment even meant to contribute? 

14 hours ago, Maka.Bones said:

Also, other players have already been complaining that it's not good enough at drawing aggro, because it moves too fast.

... where? With the baseline movement speed? If that is really the case, then why not simply buff its aggro range?

14 hours ago, Maka.Bones said:

If it always moved at max speed, it would be gone before the enemies could shoot it; it would be ineffective at maintaining aggro.

... the clone's lifespan is based on duration, not speed, so even if it were to move at "max speed" it would still be drawing aggro the whole way through. What stats have you been changing on Wisp?

14 hours ago, Maka.Bones said:

 chromatic augments are based on color-schemes as well... not just adding or changing elemental damage. The augment I suggested is just a more potent stellar-beam, and it would add fixed elemental damage; not customizable elements.... so it' not simply "chromatic"

So... just add four more damage types onto an ability that already has two? Why? How would that add gameplay to her 4?

14 hours ago, Maka.Bones said:

.... except no... I literally said that It wouldn't contain viral, or cold.. those things wouldn't exist within a supernova explosion lol.

Noticed how I specifically said virtually any damage type, not literally any damage type. I don't quite understand why you'd try to catch me on my wording, let alone imply I've misunderstood your posts, when the former is pointlessly confrontational, and the latter stems directly from your own misunderstanding of what I've said.

14 hours ago, Maka.Bones said:

It's not an "argument" i'm just saying that those damage types are literally what's contained within the sun, according to factually based science. There's no argument to be made there, unless she's opening a portal so somewhere other than a star lol

... except Warframe is a video game, not "factually based science". Electricity and magnetism are two aspects of the same force as per "factually based science", and "factually based science" does not support the notion that one can create a virus that affects organic and technological systems alike just by releasing toxins into a cold environment, nor that passing an electrical current through those toxins will generate a potent corrosive acid. Warframe is a made-up game with made-up damage systems and its own, made-up internal logic about how physics work, with a heavy reliance on space magic. Asking that an in-game mechanic be changed in the name of realism is a silly argument to make for a game like Warframe.

 

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I will just state several gripes I still have:

1. Sol Gate tick rate - I don't need more damage on this, I need it to tick a lot faster and scale up with no cap. It would be a lot better if Sol Gate applied 10 damage ticks every second instead of two.

2. Wisp 2nd skill ... the clone defo has to move faster.

3. Breach Surge blind targeting still very weird, doesn't seem to hit enemies on different elevation consistently. Can't we have a simple LoS/No restriction AoE blind?

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, Datam4ss said:

I will just state several gripes I still have:

1. Sol Gate tick rate - I don't need more damage on this, I need it to tick a lot faster and scale up with no cap. It would be a lot better if Sol Gate applied 10 damage ticks every second instead of two.

2. Wisp 2nd skill ... the clone defo has to move faster.

3. Breach Surge blind targeting still very weird, doesn't seem to hit enemies on different elevation consistently. Can't we have a simple LoS/No restriction AoE blind?

Sol gate tick rate is slower than Revenant's Danse Macabre it's just to slow it why I never use the ability. I rather use the atomos it tick rate melt armor and proc faster. If they change this maybe I can see myself using this ability again and at higher levels. Like the post above said the damage there just change it tick rates it feels like pre-beam weapons before the buff to beam weapons.

Also love Wisp playstyle as a mobile caster with no movement restrictions abilities which allow me play on the move in a fast paced game in short she is an all round warframe for someone who likes playing Titanfall 2 with it's fast pace.

Edited by (XB1)Gingka43

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Breach Surge's LoS dependency renders it needlessly difficult to use and makes it glitchy, as it doesn't negotiate elevation changes properly. I would trade the momentary hard CC for 'punch-through' in a heartbeat, as it would make the ability much easier to apply.

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, (PS4)hades297youthful said:

I  am still farming hexenon for wisp, looking forward to playing this warframe but can someone tell me why i am only getting 13 hexenon every 20 min in dark sector survivals with a nekros

Play the new disruption game mode if you want Hexenon. It drops mainly from Amalgams.

Edited by Datam4ss

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So far i'm enjoying whisp. she feels very fluid and dynamic.

i do have a huge issue with her motes though. i find them very unappealing visually. i'd like to have an option to toggel them off (we still have buff indicators like with all other buffs) or a slide to make them transparent.

at the very least i'd want to be able to change the colorour of the "antlers" cause the red green blue really is cancer for every fashionframe ambition.

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