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KnightCole

Oberon vs Nekros

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Seriously, why is this still a thing?  It literally would take 5 minutes to change and would alter nothing within the balance of the game.  The only thing it would fix is not making Oberon players hate every Nekros they ever meet. 

I mean, there is absolutely 0 logic to why Nekros pets should drain energy.  Nekros pets are able to be recast at will, and they wither away and die anyway, sooooo, this non-sense with Oberons energy being sapped cuz Nekros pets are up is beyond crap.  It should absolutely be changed.  That, or change Oberons heal energy drain to a flat rate, instead of per target.  Honestly, id rather take that.  Remove the per target energy drain per target.

I did a Kuva Survival last night and I got basically invalidated into the 100+ minutes we were in there. 744 Energy with 85% Dmg to energy drained in like 4 seconds flat from the Nekros crap ass drain mechanic....I mean, not that we lost or died alot, but I did get downed ALOT cuz I had no energy to heal and had to first cast my heal after raging energy from the enemies.  It was just incredibly annoying and there is simply no logical reason that this 'feature' should still be a thing.

Seriously DE, fix this issue, your game will be better for it.

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2 minutes ago, KnightCole said:

Seriously DE, fix this issue, your game will be better for it.

They don't want the gameto be better.... they want it to be Grindy...

In any case I think a better fix would be to remove the Health Drain from Nekros's Zombie army. That way it would still drain Obeon's Energy but only if they take damage...

In the case of the infested, Oberon mighy actually want the Ancient Healer Zombies to stick around for the damage reduction...

Would that make Nekros too OP ? 

well yes and no.... yes it would be OP for him to have scaling Body Guards but ultimately its not going to make people say: "Oh wow... This Hydrolyst tough... I should have brought Nekros."

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4 minutes ago, Lutesque said:

They don't want the gameto be better.... they want it to be Grindy...

In any case I think a better fix would be to remove the Health Drain from Nekros's Zombie army. That way it would still drain Obeon's Energy but only if they take damage...

In the case of the infested, Oberon mighy actually want the Ancient Healer Zombies to stick around for the damage reduction...

Would that make Nekros too OP ? 

well yes and no.... yes it would be OP for him to have scaling Body Guards but ultimately its not going to make people say: "Oh wow... This Hydrolyst tough... I should have brought Nekros."

No, draining energy only if they take damage?  Thing is Damage is completely irrelevant on them, since Nekros can recast and resummon new pets at will.  The drain just invalidates Oberon and prevents him from being able to even play the game really.  I cant CC, I cant strip armor, I cant heal, I cant buff, I cant do jack.  I found this to be an incredibly annoying issue in that 100m+ kuva survival last night.  Enemies started to get tough and I needed Dance floors and armor stripping balls, as well as the CC effect and couldnt as I had no energy.  Also needed the healing to heal me.....

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Preach it man, I have made threads about this too but DE just doesn't care or notice. 

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3 minutes ago, KnightCole said:

No, draining energy only if they take damage?  Thing is Damage is completely irrelevant on them, since Nekros can recast and resummon new pets at will.  The drain just invalidates Oberon and prevents him from being able to even play the game really.  I cant CC, I cant strip armor, I cant heal, I cant buff, I cant do jack.  I found this to be an incredibly annoying issue in that 100m+ kuva survival last night.  Enemies started to get tough and I needed Dance floors and armor stripping balls, as well as the CC effect and couldnt as I had no energy.  Also needed the healing to heal me.....

Well then in that case Oberon is Cork Screwed.... 

Play Saryn and step into The Winner's Circle :)

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it's already "fixed". Players are 3/sec, and non Players are 1/sec. reduced cost since it isn't a Player.

you weren't draining 186 Energy/sec like you say, not even close to it. if you were draining quite fast, it was.... more likely to do with Energy Leech Eximus, not that there was a few extra targets. with any sort of reasonable Mod Loadout, you would still be draining <10/sec even when covering all Players, 7 Shadows, and 4 Companions. assuming that all of them needed Healing simultaneously, because Energy is only drained for targets that actually need the Healing(the Shadows obviously need the Healing at all times but if it's only them then you're looking at <3/sec).

sounds more like user error.

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It's probably still a thing because you're posting feedback in the general discussion forums.

Also you can't just make the claim that all Oberon's hate Nekros, you're not the sum of all Oberon players, or that there is no logical reason for the feature. Some Oberon players might actually want to be able to keep other players summons alive.

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44 minutes ago, taiiat said:

it's already "fixed". Players are 3/sec, and non Players are 1/sec. reduced cost since it isn't a Player.

you weren't draining 186 Energy/sec like you say, not even close to it. if you were draining quite fast, it was.... more likely to do with Energy Leech Eximus, not that there was a few extra targets. with any sort of reasonable Mod Loadout, you would still be draining <10/sec even when covering all Players, 7 Shadows, and 4 Companions. assuming that all of them needed Healing simultaneously, because Energy is only drained for targets that actually need the Healing(the Shadows obviously need the Healing at all times but if it's only them then you're looking at <3/sec).

sounds more like user error.

Eh, no, it was the summons.  When I ran the hell well away from the kuva objective(Where the Nekros was), my energy went down normally.  When I went near it, and laid out my carpets to defend and CC the enemies, it triggered the buffs and healing on the Nekros summons and boop, gone.....700 energy, gone in only a few seconds.  It counted down as fast as a void energy orb counts up......just drained it right away in a matter of seconds. 

And the whole thing is, that the shadows shouldnt have healing applied to them AT ALL, since they can simply be resummoned.  So, why would they need the healing?

As for my efficiency, it is at 95%, and my drain is like 2.56/s per target, or something about a 2.  

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48 minutes ago, trst said:

It's probably still a thing because you're posting feedback in the general discussion forums.

Also you can't just make the claim that all Oberon's hate Nekros, you're not the sum of all Oberon players, or that there is no logical reason for the feature. Some Oberon players might actually want to be able to keep other players summons alive.

Why though?  What is there to gain from wasting your energy keeping summons alive?  Nekros wouldnt even notice if the energy drain on Oberon went away. He would just keep summoning new minions as he needs them, all the same.

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28 minutes ago, KnightCole said:

700 energy, gone in only a few seconds.  It counted down as fast as a void energy orb counts up......just drained it right away in a matter of seconds. 

well, seeing as that is mathematically impossible even if you had low Duration and low Efficiency(even extremely low of both would be like 50E/sec), it sounds like you're talking about a Bug.

19 minutes ago, KnightCole said:

He would just keep summoning new minions as he needs them, all the same.

well, if you've played Nekros, usually there's a certain group of Summons that you'd prefer to keep for the majority of the Mission. until such a point that you get higher Level versions of those same Enemies.

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4 minutes ago, taiiat said:

well, seeing as that is mathematically impossible even if you had low Duration and low Efficiency, it sounds like you're talking about a Bug.

well, if you've played Nekros, usually there's a certain group of Summons that you'd prefer to keep for the majority of the Mission. until such a point that you get higher Level versions of those same Enemies.

My Duration is 73%, Eff 95%, Strength is 263%.  And it wasnt really a bug, it happens every time I get in a group with a Nekros who pops his pets.  I just get to spend the duration of the mission barely able to assist my team, besides shooting everything dead with my gun.

Ive actually not played much Nekros.  I played him a very small amount when I first unlocked him, but past that......Hes lvl 30 and might even have a forma or 2 on him.  Though this was a long time ago and I didnt really know what do with him.

And if there are certain summons you wanna keep alive, then they should give Nekros a healing ability all of his own that applies only to his minions.  IDK, make soul punch heal his minions for a % of the dmg done.  I swear I watched Ashisogi Tenno's video and he said Nekros can heal his minions....

I do know after watching that vid that I really realized how utterly dumb it is that Nekros drains Oberon.....

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2 minutes ago, KnightCole said:

My Duration is 73%, Eff 95%, Strength is 263%. 

(2 - 0.95) / 0.73 == 1.4383x
(3 or 1 for non Player) * 1.4383x == 4.3149 Player and 1.4383 non Player.

(4.3149 * 4) + (1.4383 * 11) == 33.0809

while your negative Duration and negative Efficiency is... well, the numbers speak for themselves, 33/sec is much lower than the ~186/sec you're claiming.

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Whatever, this is just pointless counter synergy without any real reason behind it, better be removed i guess.

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8 minutes ago, taiiat said:

(2 - 0.95) / 0.73 == 1.4383x
(3 or 1 for non Player) * 1.4383x == 4.3149 Player and 1.4383 non Player.

(4.3149 * 4) + (1.4383 * 11) == 33.0809

while your negative Duration and negative Efficiency is... well, the numbers speak for themselves, 33/sec is much lower than the ~186/sec you're claiming.

Its still hella damn quick......and its more than enough to just shy of completely prevent me using my abilities for the most part, even with my 85% dmg to energy conversion mods.

My negative dur and eff is a result of me stacking as much power str as I could get(and my blind rage is only +63% cuz I dont want MORE negative efficiency.  I was going for a healing/armor buff Oberon, making use of my carpet, bolts and 4 to CC, strip armor and the like.  I just recently stacked rage with the 45% set mod for even more dmg to energy.  I was going for a high sustain, tank type Oberon.  That gets completely shredded when Nekros shows up and saps all my energy.  I got rekt multiple times last night trying to get my energy back after defending a Kuva survival air support beside my team....I did try to stay the hell away from the objective cuz of that.  

IDK, what ever the math says, I still think its a bullS#&amp;&#036; feature that shouldnt be a thing at all.  Cuz if were gunna go with this, Ember's fire should damage Frost's snow globes and reduce the effectiveness of his ice when they are in proximity of one another.  Rhino's impactful stomp should destroy or knock down Atlas's earth based walls and golems.  Volt should shock the hell out of and team damage Hydroid. 

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7 minutes ago, KnightCole said:

IDK, what ever the math says, I still think its a bullS#&amp;&#036; feature that shouldnt be a thing at all.  Cuz if were gunna go with this, Ember's fire should damage Frost's snow globes and reduce the effectiveness of his ice when they are in proximity of one another.  Rhino's impactful stomp should destroy or knock down Atlas's earth based walls and golems.  Volt should shock the hell out of and team damage Hydroid. 

except Healing Shadows is something helpful, rather than trolling.

 

22 minutes ago, KnightCole said:

And if there are certain summons you wanna keep alive, then they should give Nekros a healing ability all of his own that applies only to his minions.

he has one, by recasting Shadows of the Dead(also teleports his Shadows to him if they're far way). ofcourse, it's still a slow Ability and costs a lot of Energy. so i'm sure there's a fair share of Nekros Players that wouldn't mind having to recast a lot less often.
ofcourse, in either direction(whether on the Nekros or on the Oberon) one could say that since there is a Nekros present that Energy Orbs will be much more plentiful than normal anyways... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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1 minute ago, taiiat said:

except Healing Shadows is something helpful, rather than trolling.

 

he has one, by recasting Shadows of the Dead(also teleports his Shadows to him if they're far way). ofcourse, it's still a slow Ability and costs a lot of Energy. so i'm sure there's a fair share of Nekros Players that wouldn't mind having to recast a lot less often.
ofcourse, in either direction(whether on the Nekros or on the Oberon) one could say that since there is a Nekros present that Energy Orbs will be much more plentiful than normal anyways... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Sure, there are more energy orbs, but +25 energy doesnt make up for the 33 energy drain.......and +25 energy is alot less than the 100 it costs to cast my 4 and the 30 or 50 or w/e it is to cast my carpet, while im being leeched 33/s......

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If you're playing some healing rock build then don't play it in groups.

No one cares about Oberon's heal over time. It's Phoenix Renewal which gives any value to his 3rd ability anyways. Healing isn't needed and Armor does nearly nothing on it's own. Everything Oberon does that's of value to a team requires multiple casts. I use Energize on my Oberon and still wouldn't go under 160% Efficiency.

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I don't know, OP, but this really seems to be a bug. While you're right about Nekros' minions eating all Oberon's energy can be very irritating, the energy drain / sec shouldn't be that bad. Didn't do the math like taiiat, I'm just speaking out of general personal experience, but I had my share of unintentionally immortalized shadows, and they're not affecting my energy used that badly.

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I agree with you... but you do know you can cast heal in an area away from where Nekros keeps his pets, right? Just cast it at start of mission or in specific room then ask Nekros to not bring his pets back there. 

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Oberon is pretty much my favorite frame, and i can confirm that this situation is absolutely infuriating. My entire setup is built to support, and most of it is deemed useless right when i see the minions sucking 150+ energy per second. 

At that point, i have to make a decision. Either i go the entire mission without using my most important tanking + support ability, or i have to become selfish and only focus on my own healing.

I hate to be selfish, its the complete opposite mindset of why i love Oberon in the first place, but it is what it is.

Just a tip if your Oberon and you need to worry about your own life in a high level mission. You can also attempt to avoid healing the minions while healing the team. Explanation below.

 

Your initial casting spot for Renewal stays in that same exact spot, it doesnt follow you, or go away. If allies ever walk into that spot, they will be affected by Renewal until you turn it off.

Basically, try to catch your teammates+Nekros with Renewal in an area where the minions will never roam to. Good places for this are initial spawn,  another good one is running ahead and putting the Renewal Zone in a chokepoint where Nekros will run through way before casting his minions.

If your left with no other choice, run far away to a corner of the map,  put Renewal only on yourself and be done with it.

If people in chat complain that your not healing them, blame it on the damn minions lol.

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59 minutes ago, Xzorn said:

If you're playing some healing rock build then don't play it in groups.

No one cares about Oberon's heal over time. It's Phoenix Renewal which gives any value to his 3rd ability anyways. Healing isn't needed and Armor does nearly nothing on it's own. Everything Oberon does that's of value to a team requires multiple casts. I use Energize on my Oberon and still wouldn't go under 160% Efficiency.

Lemme make sure I have this straight.

Because you and the collective of players you hang around don't find it useful, no one else should.  Your build and only your build matters?  Only your playstyle should be adopted by everyone else.  Because they have all the same mods and forma'd their frame the exact same way you have?

Or maybe in a game with so many options it's a guarantee that players will have different specs for different playstyles and your post adds nothing to the conversation?

As to the OP;

Granted, going into a PUG with a Blind Rage Oberon build is completely at the risk of the Oberon, but there is a viable gripe here.  If you go into an instance, the healing expectation is generally you and three other frames.  Maybe a defense NPC.  Maybe a specter.  But I don't think there's an expectation that you'll be healing 4 players plus 7 specters.  Even though they reduced the cost, still seems a bit much.

If the nekros in the party ends up with a cat lady and her kavats...that's a lotta energy being spent that 99% of the playerbase (including this guy) isn't prepped for.

Nekros doesn't depend on anyone else to refresh his shadows, so why adjust it for oberon and not eliminate it completely due to the nature of his toggled heal ability?

One thing I would offer though, OP, is this.  When it comes to Oberon, if you're running in a group, he really can't "do all the things".  Too high a power percentage will suck all of your energy out as you're experiencing.  Even if you're running both damage/power conversion mods rage and Hunter Adrenaline, which you are and good on you, this can be problematic in a group setting if the instance isn't hitting you enough.  

I run my base oberon for profit taker since I'm too lazy to run chroma and also don't want to pick up the other chromas in my pugs.  I take so much damage, maintaining power levels isn't an issue.  Kuvival isn't Profit taker.  

For Rage Oberon builds, I've found there really isn't a "balance" for the build.  You strip off the armor mods and leave adaptation at home, throw on phoenix renewal, throw on rage, hunter adrenaline, blind rage, etc  or you go the route Xzorn is talking about and use the heals as a supplement, not the focus of the build.

If you want to run a power heals Rage Oberon, you may want to consider running narrowminded.  It limits the range on renewal and gives you more control over who gets the heals and when.  It alos limits everything else, so you really need to nail down what playstyle you're going with.  

If you're going for a jack of all trades oberon build you can do that, but understand that running with groups means you can't just leave the renewal on all the time.  

Tweak the spec to fit the situation, or tweak the spec to fit your playstyle.

  

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12 minutes ago, (PS4)BattleCry1791 said:

Lemme make sure I have this straight.

Because you and the collective of players you hang around don't find it useful, no one else should.  Your build and only your build matters?  Only your playstyle should be adopted by everyone else.  Because they have all the same mods and forma'd their frame the exact same way you have?

Or maybe in a game with so many options it's a guarantee that players will have different specs for different playstyles and your post adds nothing to the conversation?  

Well, his post does add to conversation in that the build is objectively pretty bad/inefficient and the trouble OP is experiencing is more because of his build than the mechanic itself.

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They really do need to make the shadows immune to the healing.  That being said, you're almost always gonna see a Nekros in kuva survivals.  He won't survive without casting shadows unless there's a Saryn slaughtering everything before they get to him.  If you wanna support bring Trinity.  Yeah I like Oberon better too, I even used my umbra forma on him, but in kuva survivals I know not to touch him because of this very reason.  I never looked at the actual numbers but the shadows do drain his energy pretty fast.  I hope DE fixes this one day.

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8 minutes ago, (PS4)BattleCry1791 said:

Lemme make sure I have this straight.

Because you and the collective of players you hang around don't find it useful, no one else should.  Your build and only your build matters?  Only your playstyle should be adopted by everyone else.  Because they have all the same mods and forma'd their frame the exact same way you have?

Or maybe in a game with so many options it's a guarantee that players will have different specs for different playstyles and your post adds nothing to the conversation?

 

OP has a highly restricted build and is mad it's not working right in groups. I guess I should make a post next time I run speed Nova and someone has Growing Power installed or EV Trinity for nearly killing my Solo Nekros build, Gara and Frost keep making everything immune to status, Garuda Rage time.

My point is sometimes builds don't fit with other builds. Oberon hates Nekros, Nekros hates EV Trin, Garuda hates all of them.

There aren't that many good choices anymore. DE is making sure of that with all their immune cheese. Options? Sure, Good ones? Not so much.

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2 hours ago, Xzorn said:

 

OP has a highly restricted build and is mad it's not working right in groups. I guess I should make a post next time I run speed Nova and someone has Growing Power installed or EV Trinity for nearly killing my Solo Nekros build, Gara and Frost keep making everything immune to status, Garuda Rage time.

My point is sometimes builds don't fit with other builds. Oberon hates Nekros, Nekros hates EV Trin, Garuda hates all of them.

There aren't that many good choices anymore. DE is making sure of that with all their immune cheese. Options? Sure, Good ones? Not so much.

He didn't complain about it being an issue in groups, his only complaint is that it's when grouped with a nekros.  You or I may never take that build into a pub room, but he's ok with it and it doesn't seem to be an issue for him with anything other than Nekros.  

And all of your points are valid (and you forgot Octavia w Gara/Frost/Limbo); which means they need to be addressed as well, not used as forum angst fodder. 

There really shouldn't be instances where frames fight each other.  Especially not when the game started gearing towards PUGs...well, you can mark the end of raids for sure but it started a bit before that.

In this case, DE recognized it, and chose to lessen the impact instead of just get rid of it, which I think was the wrong way to go.  Because this situation is somewhat unique in that it helps one player and adversely affects another, whereas in the other instances, on player is just adversely affected.   Nekros' are actually gaining an advantage.  

And when I have to be the reasonable one in a conversation...something has gone very very wrong in the warframe universe.  

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