Oberon vs Nekros

[zoffmode]

15 minutes ago, (PS4)BattleCry1791 said:

In this case, DE recognized it, and chose to lessen the impact instead of just get rid of it, which I think was the wrong way to go.  Because this situation is somewhat unique in that it helps one player and adversely affects another, whereas in the other instances, on player is just adversely affected.   Nekros' are actually gaining an advantage.  

Honestly, that's not correct line of thinking. They reduced the negative impact while keeping the possibility for Nekros & Oberon to run an interesting setup where Oberon permanently keeps Nekros' summons alive. It could be a legitimate strategy, I don't see why DE would need to eliminate it just cause someone likes to run a highly specific build and doesn't want to bother working around it. Like it was said above, you can avoid marking summons with your heal. 

So, actually, I take my agreement with OP back. I prefer Oberon being able to heal summons, even if it is bothersome at times.

[(PSN)BattleCry1791]

1 minute ago, zoffmode said:

Honestly, that's not correct line of thinking. They reduced the negative impact while keeping the possibility for Nekros & Oberon to run an interesting setup where Nekros permanently keeps sucking out Oberon's energy.  It could be a legitimate strategy, I don't see why DE would need to eliminate it just cause someone likes to run a highly specific build and doesn't want to bother working around it. Like it was said above, you can avoid marking summons with your heal. 

So, actually, I take my agreement with OP back. I prefer Oberon being able to heal summons, even if it is bothersome at times.

I fixt your post.

You're not helping Nekros' summons, you're negatively impacting the Oberon.  

 

[taiiat]

3 hours ago, (PS4)BattleCry1791 said:

Because you and the collective of players you hang around don't find it useful, no one else should.  Your build and only your build matters?

_{(kinda off topic but, the game already is doing that with everything, content is just immune to Game Mechanics and so some Equipment is literally useless and everyone picks the one or two things that the game forces Players to use by making everything else literally useless.
god do i hate the Ropalalyst, it's the most boring thing i've ever seen in the game in my 6 years of playing. it's like a Zelda Boss from the early 90's. nothing you did in the entire game before it matters, just do this one simple thing 3 times and there you go. you even get punished for trying to use basically any Game Mechanics. Zelda has long since learned from those mistakes. but Warframe is going backwards in time and creating all of those mistakes on purpose.)}

30 minutes ago, (PS4)BattleCry1791 said:

which means they need to be addressed as well

can we not? the game is already stripping itself of all of its features as it is just fine on its own, we don't need to accelerate that any by deleting mechanics out of Abilities or making everything ignore each other in order to make sure they're foolproof and every Mission is just Solo with an IRC box in the corner.
if your Allies don't matter under any circumstance, why are they even there? to be convenient Revive bots for you? these are human beings, not your personal safety tools.

Xzorn isn't suggesting that some Abilities are simply not the friendliest with each other so that they can be made to ignore each other so the game can be even more anti-social than it already is, but rather that it means that in order for Abilities to... do cool things and interact with each other and be Co-Operative - there are opposing sides to that.

Abilities are already generally one note and bland enough thesedays, without removing what little Co-Operative features they might still have because 0.1% of Players finds those features too Social for them.

Edited May 23, 2019 by taiiat

[Rhalick0]

I mean oberon doesnt really need that much energy. He can easily gain energy from rage. Also you dont need to have renewal always on.

[(PSN)BattleCry1791]

6 minutes ago, taiiat said:

_{(kinda off topic but, the game already is doing that with everything, content is just immune to Game Mechanics and so some Equipment is literally useless and everyone picks the one or two things that the game forces Players to use by making everything else literally useless.
god do i hate the Ropalalyst, it's the most boring thing i've ever seen in the game in my 6 years of playing. it's like a Zelda Boss from the early 90's. nothing you did in the entire game before it matters, just do this one simple thing 3 times and there you go. you even get punished for trying to use basically any Game Mechanics. Zelda has long since learned from those mistakes. but Warframe is going backwards in time and creating all of those mistakes on purpose.)}

can we not? the game is already stripping itself of all of its features as it is just fine on its own, we don't need to accelerate that any by deleting mechanics out of Abilities or making everything ignore each other in order to make sure they're foolproof and every Mission is just Solo with an IRC box in the corner.
if your Allies don't matter under any circumstance, why are they even there? to be convenient Revive bots for you? these are human beings, not your personal safety tools.

Xzorn isn't suggesting that some Abilities are simply not the friendliest with each other so that they can be made to ignore each other so the game can be even more anti-social than it already is, but rather that it means that in order for Abilities to... do cool things and interact with each other and be Co-Operative - there are opposing sides to that.

Abilities are already generally one note and bland enough thesedays, without removing what little Co-Operative features they might still have because 0.1% of Players finds those features too Social for them.

1) how did you get your font so out of wack in one reply but not the other?

2) I'm on PS4, haven't encountered the ropalyst and I avoid spoilers, but post subjects on the board indicate it's not being well received.

3) How is Oberon being adversely affected by something it likely shouldn't be affected by removing co-operative features?  The vast majority of this game is played by PUG and solo players.  Just like every other game.  Clans and groups are, and have always been the minority.  Where are the raids?  Why did they get removed?  Oh...no one was playing them because they required teamwork.  

I was unaware that warframe was billed as a game that focused on synergizing powersets.  That's your own preference and means nothing to anyone but you and the vocal minority that shows up on these threads the second anyone decries one of you.  I'd love to see 5 downs a day or pay for more make a comeback but it ain't happening either.

Filthy casuals, whether you (or I) like it or not, are where money comes from, so every game has to be appealing enough to casuals to separate their hard earned dough from their wallets.  That and DE has repeatedly stated they don't want people to "no life it".  

You've got what?....5k+ hours on this game?  You have all the stuff.  You have more plat than you need?  Or could possibly ever spend?  Sorry to say it, but you and those like you (and I'm a member of the 3600 hour club) don't matter so much as attracting and retaining newer players.  Because they'll keep the game going.  I know you don't want to believe that, but I've seen a F2P that was the polar opposite of appealing to casuals and I watched it die mostly due to that fact.  

And the side affect of appealing to the masses is that clever things, challenging things...don't do well.  Too much of a challenge = ragequits and a lower player count.  Lower player count means no more warframe.

So which is more important to you?  Social interaction in the game or the game staying afloat?

[taiiat]

33 minutes ago, (PS4)BattleCry1791 said:

The vast majority of this game is played by PUG and solo players.  Just like every other game.

Where are the raids?  Why did they get removed?  Oh...no one was playing them because they required teamwork.  

-snip-

it's funny how lots of other highly successful games, and games as services, do just fine with their rivers of Game Mechanics. but just here we can't have any of them? somehow that makes sense i guess.
 

i would say because the Raids were constantly breaking + that they were just basic puzzles to eat up time that involve a lot of waiting mixed with repeating walking from A to B. so that they were.... kinda just bland and boring.

yeah, i know that Clicker games that play themselves are all the rage now and are where the big money is. doesn't mean i'm going to support or be excited about Warframe ever accelerating towards that point in space.
hmm, let's see. i'm going to go with... the game being the best game that it can be. because that's what should always really matter, the product. sure, it's popular to create money pits that people give good ratings for and then leave for long periods of time in between major content additions. because while the big money comes from getting the zombies to all buy a Skin here and there or to make them feel unhappy enough to buy something to skip playing the game for it.... they're also the least loyal or consistent type of customer that leaves at the snap of a finger on a regular basis. which is why games that try to monetize are racing to try to shovel something out all the time, because they're trying to chase those people that don't care but are easily distracted for a minute or two by a nearby carrot.

[-DG-ShadowPrime]

I still don't understand the reasoning on why Nekros's Shadows even need healing anyway. That should be an upkeep that the Nekros player has to focus on. Why not remove the cost completely? What's the benefit to Nekros for his shadows to be healed by other players when he can simply press 4 to heal them back up again? Like literally why did DE only reduced the cost of of healing shadows and not remove it completely because wherever you go Nekros will always be a detriment to Oberon. But I guess since it's only Oberon that's affected that the majority of the playerbase is just sweeping it under the rug.

[KnightCole]

Yeah, all this turning into the usual meta crap, of I dont have a meta build, or my build isnt optimized and the usual crap.  Yeah, I deliberately dont go with "the best what ever the hell", telling the meta to go die in a fire. 

Still no one has really said why this should be a thing, besides some Oberons dont mind wasting their energy healing summons that can be replaced with the push of a button by the Nekros himself.  Complain about my build's efficiency, but whats less efficient than wasting energy on summons that dont even stick around that long and can be self healed by the summoner......Then the bit about me wanting to make the game less cooperative?  What the hell is less cooperative than the way it is now?  Nekros summons his minions and basically turns off Oberon, sapping his energy at a hilarious rate.  Others say, 'cast your heal away from the Nekros'.  Ok, I did, but I shouldnt be having to worry about fighting my team and where they are standing when I cast an ability. 

Plus, as soon as I cast a carpet to CC the enemies, it applies the buffs and healing to the minions and the energy drain starts. Oh, and I can hear it now "why you casting carpet near the Nekros you know will drain your energy".  Simply?  Its the objective?  I gotta do something to defend it. I guess I could use my bolts and 4, but 2 and 4 works best, 2 lays out the rug, 4 strips the armor. 

Next, I dont have to run around with Reknewal on all the time?  Well, no, I guess I dont, but its cheaper to cast it once, spend the 30 energy and then maintain it at a steady 2-3/s, using 85% dmg to energy to keep it up.  Honestly, that was the whole point of my build, to maintain my buffs and healing so I can focus on killing, defending and fighting the enemies and not my abilities and energy.  I simply use the 2 to CC and in conjunction with 4 to blow armor off.  Combined with my Corrosive Soma and CP, I went for an Anti-Armor build with good sustain. Call it lazy, w/e.  It works pretty damn flawlessly every other time, until a Nekros shows up.  Only other time it struggles is when the enemies are to low a lvl to cause sufficient damage to build up my energy, or when my team is steam rolling the zone and not letting me build up my energy at all.  To the guy who said "no one cares about Oberons healing over time and armor buffs", well, truth be told, my build wasnt made explicitly for team use anyway, but I do try to put the healing on their cats, sents, dogs and frames if they are near by.  BUt summons?  no.....

There is simply no reason Oberon should be paying for Nekros's minions.  I mean, Rhino isnt sapping Atlas's armor to boost his Iron Skin.  Frost isnt taking Hydroid's health to strengthen his ice skills.  Garuda isnt siphoning allies health to boost her bloody skills. Volt isnt stealing other frame's power and speed to maintain his super speed....  Oberon is the only skill that is being leeched off by the welfare warframe called Nekros, despite Nekros being plenty self sufficient and able to take care of the very issue thats boning Oberon. 

Edited May 23, 2019 by KnightCole

[AshenHaze]

15 hours ago, KnightCole said:

My Duration is 73%, Eff 95%, Strength is 263%. 

Negative efficiency with healer Ober is a no-no. The negative duration also works against you in general.

His heal really isn't that great on the holdout. With that much strength it would be better to micromanage and give bursts of healing using the initial "blessing-tier" aoe heal rather than the heal over time. The heal over time is better used on duration builds that include Phoenix Renewal.

[Legion-Shields]

There are a few warframes that do the opposite of synergize with Mag due to making it harder for enemies to clump together. I’m sure there are even more situations like this between other frames that I’m not aware of. Best thing to do is just know when to cast your abilities, or distance yourself from your team.

[Bl00dRedRage]

Anyone defending this clearly doesn't play Oberon, otherwise you would know this "feature" is pure garbage for Oberon. There needs to be some change whether it is making shadows not drain energy, making renewal not heal them or make renewal heal a flat amount not matter how many objects are being healed. Nekros can heal his own summons and depending on the strength of them the health degradation is stronger than Oberon's heal meaning it literally is a waste. To those suggesting to not run renewal all the time, well if you're running the augment Phoenix Renewal you're typically going to be running renewal constantly.

[zoffmode]

10 hours ago, (PS4)BattleCry1791 said:

I fixt your post.

You're not helping Nekros' summons, you're negatively impacting the Oberon.  

  

Some Nekros run Rejuvenation and high duration to offset the health degradation, so obviously it's a benefit unless Nekros is waiting out for summons to die to resummon better ones (in which case, communication can solve the issue). Negative impact, for my build, would be additional 1.82 energy cost per second for all 7 summons which is annoying but nowhere as dramatic as OP makes it sound. 

I would like to see the cost reduced even further of course but I'd like to keep being able to heal summons. My issue is that some suggestions are to remove interaction between the two, not that the cost shouldn't be reduced.

32 minutes ago, Bl00dRedRage said:

Anyone defending this clearly doesn't play Oberon, otherwise you would know this "feature" is pure garbage for Oberon. There needs to be some change whether it is making shadows not drain energy, making renewal not heal them or make renewal heal a flat amount not matter how many objects are being healed. Nekros can heal his own summons and depending on the strength of them the health degradation is stronger than Oberon's heal meaning it literally is a waste. To those suggesting to not run renewal all the time, well if you're running the augment Phoenix Renewal you're typically going to be running renewal constantly.

Or maybe they do play Oberon but use a good efficiency build so it's less of an problem.

Edited May 23, 2019 by zoffmode

[KnightCole]

7 hours ago, AshenHaze said:

Negative efficiency with healer Ober is a no-no. The negative duration also works against you in general.

His heal really isn't that great on the holdout. With that much strength it would be better to micromanage and give bursts of healing using the initial "blessing-tier" aoe heal rather than the heal over time. The heal over time is better used on duration builds that include Phoenix Renewal.

Besides the obvious, increasing the duration of Oberon's dance floor, what does duration do for, or against him?  I know it had something to do with his healing in his old form, but what else does it do now?

[Eklectus]

And while we're at it, give Garuda an option to opt-out of healing.

[(PSN)BattleCry1791]

16 hours ago, zoffmode said:

Some Nekros run Rejuvenation and high duration to offset the health degradation, so obviously it's a benefit unless Nekros is waiting out for summons to die to resummon better ones (in which case, communication can solve the issue). Negative impact, for my build, would be additional 1.82 energy cost per second for all 7 summons which is annoying but nowhere as dramatic as OP makes it sound. 

I would like to see the cost reduced even further of course but I'd like to keep being able to heal summons. My issue is that some suggestions are to remove interaction between the two, not that the cost shouldn't be reduced.

Or maybe they do play Oberon but use a good efficiency build so it's less of an problem.

Well that's a good point, it also can negatively affect the Nekros because he can't spawn new shadows if the old ones ain't dead.

And how much more than a value of 1 would you like them to reduce it to?  Cuz that's where it's at IIRC.  .25?

[AugustFestival]

do you not use hunter adrenaline on oberon? its pretty easy to get.

[AugustFestival]

17 hours ago, AshenHaze said:

Negative efficiency with healer Ober is a no-no. The negative duration also works against you in general.

His heal really isn't that great on the holdout. With that much strength it would be better to micromanage and give bursts of healing using the initial "blessing-tier" aoe heal rather than the heal over time. The heal over time is better used on duration builds that include Phoenix Renewal.

its fine if you bring rage or hunter adrenaline but otherwise yea, idk why he has negative duration though, Phoenix renewal, quick thinking, hunter adrenaline, blind rage, etc, you shouldn't be having energy problems even with nekros

if I don't gain energy its because im not taking damage to the point where I need to have renewal up, saying this as a oberon main, op needs to calm down, you can also just... cast it away from nekros, it doesn't follow you around, theres an original casting point and if you aren't in it at the start you dont get healed.

 

Edited May 24, 2019 by AugustFestival

[AugustFestival]

16 hours ago, zoffmode said:

Some Nekros run Rejuvenation and high duration to offset the health degradation, so obviously it's a benefit unless Nekros is waiting out for summons to die to resummon better ones (in which case, communication can solve the issue). Negative impact, for my build, would be additional 1.82 energy cost per second for all 7 summons which is annoying but nowhere as dramatic as OP makes it sound. 

I would like to see the cost reduced even further of course but I'd like to keep being able to heal summons. My issue is that some suggestions are to remove interaction between the two, not that the cost shouldn't be reduced.

Or maybe they do play Oberon but use a good efficiency build so it's less of an problem.

yea I play Oberon and I dont have a problem with it and I have 55% efficiency

Edited May 24, 2019 by AugustFestival

[(PSN)SnakeLogic]

Wait, is this actually a bug of some kind?

Some people here are saying they have no problem whatsoever. Just build a little efficiency and you’ll be fine.

Then theres other Oberon users here, like me, that have clearly experienced HUNDREDS of energy per second being sapped. My build uses around 2 energy per second per target. 

And now that im thinking about it with the listed values on the ability, that ridiculous drain should literally not be possible. 

Im convinced theres something odd going on here with this interaction...

 

[AugustFestival]

5 minutes ago, (PS4)SpIitSnake said:

Wait, is this actually a bug of some kind?

Some people here are saying they have no problem whatsoever. Just build a little efficiency and you’ll be fine.

Then theres other Oberon users here, like me, that have clearly experienced HUNDREDS of energy per second being sapped. My build uses around 2 energy per second per target. 

And now that im thinking about it with the listed values on the ability, that ridiculous drain should literally not be possible. 

Im convinced theres something odd going on here with this interaction...

 

I don't have issues keeping energy up even with 55% efficiency so maybe it is a bug, are you using quick thinking?

[Krucz24]

I don't play Oberon (only levelled for MR) but i'm wondering if there was a Revenant in OP's group, do their slaved enemies count toward the heal drain also?

[KnightCole]

3 hours ago, (PS4)BattleCry1791 said:

Well that's a good point, it also can negatively affect the Nekros because he can't spawn new shadows if the old ones ain't dead.

And how much more than a value of 1 would you like them to reduce it to?  Cuz that's where it's at IIRC.  .25?

ZERO.........let Nekros manage his own minions.  Its bad enough this skill has an increase based on the number of targets period.  Id honestly rather they change it to be a flat rate regardless.....

 

3 hours ago, AugustFestival said:

do you not use hunter adrenaline on oberon? its pretty easy to get.

Thats the name of the other dmg to energy mod, the 45% one that I cant remember the name to in these posts, but yes, i use both Rage and HA.

The thing with those mods though, they require you to get shot.  When your playing near allies, defending an objective, or just near allies in general, they will be killing stuff.  Those mods require me to get shot, which doesnt always happen in significant enough amounts to gain tons of energy, at least not unless I just stop and stand there, which quite often I do.  Plus, the AI sometimes just completely ignore me and walk on by, or fire really damn slowly, or dont shoot at all, or die....  Even then, with the insane speed that the Nekros was draining me, it didnt matter much anyway.  

As for why I have negative duration?  Cuz, like ive said before, I was going for max power strength, blind rage to rank 6 or 7, Transient is maxed, which is a negative duration mod.  Plus, I didnt think duration affected Oberon much past the duration on his dance floor.

And while no, it doesnt follow me around, casting Oberon dance floor, which is one thing I use to defend the objective for CC purposes and the Rad proc, it triggered the buff on the minions, which triggered the drain.  Or, what?  Im not supposed to do anything to try and help defend objectives with my abilities?  It also happens to be the catalyst for Oberon's #4 to strip all the armor off the enemies.  This combo also helped me to kill the enemies 115 minutes in, against lvl like 140 baddies.  But, like I said, the Nekros drain basically invalidates Oberon......increasing the energy drain to stupid levels.

[zoffmode]

1 hour ago, Krucz24 said:

I don't play Oberon (only levelled for MR) but i'm wondering if there was a Revenant in OP's group, do their slaved enemies count toward the heal drain also?

Yeah they do AFAIK. They don't have health damage though unless attacked.

3 hours ago, (PS4)BattleCry1791 said:

Well that's a good point, it also can negatively affect the Nekros because he can't spawn new shadows if the old ones ain't dead.

And how much more than a value of 1 would you like them to reduce it to?  Cuz that's where it's at IIRC.  .25?

Well it also works the same if someone brought Rejuvenation aura or any other healer that affects NPCs. Rejuvenation is the most annoying one actually cause you can't turn that off.

Energy cost issue becomes problematic due to the fact that they always require healing. So current NPC can be the same cost as now but Nekros could be 1/2 of current NPC cost and it wouldn't be game breaking IMO. 

12 hours ago, KnightCole said:

Besides the obvious, increasing the duration of Oberon's dance floor, what does duration do for, or against him?  I know it had something to do with his healing in his old form, but what else does it do now?

Duration also decreases his heal over time energy cost. So going negative duration and efficiency guarantees you the worst energy cost possible.

[zoffmode]

4 minutes ago, KnightCole said:

But, like I said, the Nekros drain basically invalidates Oberon......increasing the energy drain to stupid levels.

No Oberon is not invalidated if there's Nekros around, only your build is. 

[AugustFestival]

 

Quote

And while no, it doesnt follow me around, casting Oberon dance floor, which is one thing I use to defend the objective for CC purposes and the Rad proc, it triggered the buff on the minions which triggered the drain. Or, what?  Im not supposed to do anything to try and help defend objectives with my abilities?

hallowed ground does not give the renewal buff

I main Oberon, I have less efficiency than you, though more duration, and run only hunter adrenaline, I am able to very easily work around nekros if they are in my group, it sounds like its an issue with you or maybe a bug.

Edited May 24, 2019 by AugustFestival