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KnightCole

Oberon vs Nekros

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On 2019-05-22 at 11:21 PM, taiiat said:

except Healing Shadows is something helpful, rather than trolling.

Math time...

  • A Level 30 Bombard has 4,000 health.
  • With a Nekros with 130% Power Strength will bump that to 9,200 Health of the Shadow.
  • Assuming 155% Duration (just Primed Continuity) that Shadow would lose 178 health per second.
    • This gives a 'Duration' of 52 Seconds.
  • An Obreon with 200% Strength heals for 80 Health per second, bringing the health drain to 98 health per second.
    • This gives a duration of 93 seconds, a 78% increase.

Okay, that's not horrible I guess. It gives a somewhat noticeable boost, but lets not forget that Oberon would be losing between around 15 and 20 energy per second based on your build.

But what happens when you bump the level to, say, 60?

  • A Level 60 Bombard has 16,000 health.
  • With a Nekros with 130% Power Strength will bump that to 36,800 Health of the Shadow.
  • Assuming 155% Duration (just Primed Continuity) that Shadow would lose 712 health per second.
    • This (still) gives a 'Duration' of 52 Seconds.
  • An Obreon with 200% Strength heals for 80 Health per second, bringing the health drain to 632 health per second.
    • This gives a duration of 58 seconds, an 11% increase.

I'm going to go out on a limb and just say no. Healing shadows is not practically helping at all. The Nekros would not even notice if it weren't for the green outline on their Shadows.

 

I get it, you'r trying to play a bit of devil's advocate to make sure that both sides are shown, I try to do that sometimes as well. But in this case, the other "side" doesn't really exist.

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56 minutes ago, AugustFestival said:

 

hallowed ground does not give the renewal buff

I main Oberon, I have less efficiency than you, though more duration, and run only hunter adrenaline, I am able to very easily work around nekros if they are in my group, it sounds like its an issue with you or maybe a bug.

Hallowed Ground gives the Armor buff......

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1 minute ago, KnightCole said:

Hallowed Ground gives the Armor buff......

only to people who have renewal and the armor buff DOESN'T drain energy, nothing about hallowed ground drains energy except for activating it. Can you record a video of this phenomenon where you loose all your happening? Because its either a glitch or something you are doing and that would help us help you

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1 hour ago, zoffmode said:

Duration also decreases his heal over time energy cost. So going negative duration and efficiency guarantees you the worst energy cost possible.

Oh, more of that really off the wall logic that makes little to no sense.....duration affecting efficiency....derp...game devs....I swear...

Tune in next week when +Impact damage somehow affects reload speed....

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2 minutes ago, KnightCole said:

Oh, more of that really off the wall logic that makes little to no sense.....duration affecting efficiency....derp...game devs....I swear...

Tune in next week when +Impact damage somehow affects reload speed....

it makes perfect sense.... the longer something is the more spread out it is, the less energy you have to use to keep it going, are you going to ask for that to be removed now because thats not going to happen. Its like this for all or almost all channeled abilities.

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As soon as a nekros spawn his shadows I go solo play and turn my powers off for the rest of the game and ppl get to survive the best they can.

Hunter adrenaline don't help much with a oberon with adapation when a nekros around as they do very little damage to my health (using decaying dragon key to remove the shield).

Nekros pet drain my 100+health/s strenght in a few seconds and its the only power I use on oberon so turns my oberon to a power less tank instead (up to a point without the healing).

The only reason I would be ok with the drain to stay is if they make the combo go both ways. I paying the energy upkeep of the shadows not the nekros so his shadow defense should be shared with the oberon keeping them alive as we are paying for it.

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6 minutes ago, Emolition said:

As soon as a nekros spawn his shadows I go solo play and turn my powers off for the rest of the game and ppl get to survive the best they can.

Hunter adrenaline don't help much with a oberon with adapation when a nekros around as they do very little damage to my health (using decaying dragon key to remove the shield).

Nekros pet drain my 100+health/s strenght in a few seconds and its the only power I use on oberon so turns my oberon to a power less tank instead (up to a point without the healing).

The only reason I would be ok with the drain to stay is if they make the combo go both ways. I paying the energy upkeep of the shadows not the nekros so his shadow defense should be shared with the oberon keeping them alive as we are paying for it.

um you don't have to turn off renewal, just cast it in a corner somewhere people wont go and it wont heal the minions.... its something you can easily play around with, I dont actually want the healing to be removed, if you NEED to have something changed, you could reduce the energy cost to 0.25 for minions specifically.

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1 minute ago, AugustFestival said:

um you don't have to turn off renewal, just cast it in a corner somewhere people wont go and it wont heal the minions.... its something you can easily play around with, I dont actually want the healing to be removed, if you NEED to have something changed, you could reduce the energy cost to 0.25 for minions specifically.

As I said im fine with the healing but it need to be even turned and get some benefit from his shadows to even if it just for 10ish seconds.

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1 minute ago, Emolition said:

As I said im fine with the healing but it need to be even turned and get some benefit from his shadows to even if it just for 10ish seconds.

im sorry I cant understand what you are saying

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Oberon's healing should not affect nekros' shadows. Period. What's there to discuss? Only an idiot would go out saying "oh it's fun to get my energy bar depleted on a continuous level" 

It's not. The whole reason I abandoned the frame for any mission type that lures in nekros' 

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1 minute ago, AugustFestival said:

im sorry I cant understand what you are saying

Ok let say it like this. You have a car but I keep paying for the gas but you never let me ride along.  If I gonna keep paying the gas alteast give me a ride.

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16 minutes ago, AugustFestival said:

 

only to people who have renewal and the armor buff DOESN'T drain energy, nothing about hallowed ground drains energy except for activating it. Can you record a video of this phenomenon where you loose all your happening? Because its either a glitch or something you are doing and that would help us help you

Because Hallowed ground applies your channelled healing to anyone who passes through it. 

I do it all the time, allies outside my range, I run up, throw a rug under them to apply the healing and armor buff without having to turn off both and then cast them both again......

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44 minutes ago, KnightCole said:

Because Hallowed ground applies your channelled healing to anyone who passes through it. 

I do it all the time, allies outside my range, I run up, throw a rug under them to apply the healing and armor buff without having to turn off both and then cast them both again......

No it doesn't and it never has, the patch notes say nothing about this and the ability page doesn't either.

https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Hallowed_Ground 

https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Oberon/Patch_History

I don't think we should be balancing the game based on the word of someone who doesn't even understand what abilities do and  do not do.

im not trying to be rude but, come on.... there are various changes that could be made without removing the ability to heal the minions

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37 minutes ago, Emolition said:

Ok let say it like this. You have a car but I keep paying for the gas but you never let me ride along.  If I gonna keep paying the gas alteast give me a ride.

like I said you can avoid healing them

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On 2019-05-22 at 9:47 PM, trst said:

Also you can't just make the claim that all Oberon's hate Nekros, you're not the sum of all Oberon players, or that there is no logical reason for the feature. Some Oberon players might actually want to be able to keep other players summons alive.

1. Only a newbie for an Oberon player would want to throw away their precious energy on up to 7 decaying hulks that are meant to die.

2. There is no logical reason for anyone to heal something that's meant to lose health. it's a waste of resources.

3. The only summons I'd want to keep alive are ones that don't lose health constantly. Not summons that, by design, lose health and expire.

This whole thing with Renewal affecting Shadows is especially galling when a Nekros player can heal up existing Shadows when they cast SoTD again.

Frankly I hate Nekros players that spam SoTD when it's been made clear that I'm trying to keep everyone alive and they ignore me. Because 1. They're stopping me from doing my job and 2. They don't care about how their selfish actions affect others.

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Nekros main here.

Please stop Oberon from healing my Shadows with Renewal. I don't want them to be healed. I can do that much more effectively myself, and there are many times when I want them to die so that I can switch them out or move them because the recast teleport isn't working (thus, I don't want the healing to actually be effective).

I would also like to be able to use my powers without worrying that I am stopping a teammate from using their own support powers effectively.

There is no useful benefit to any players from this particular interaction. It inhibits team play; please just take it out.

If there is some coding hiccup blocking this change, please let us know.

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6 hours ago, AugustFestival said:

I don't have issues keeping energy up even with 55% efficiency so maybe it is a bug, are you using quick thinking?

Yep i use the typical Adrenaline + QT setup with pretty good efficiency. 

Its not Quick Thinking thats draining me, thats for sure. That ridiculous drain on energy will sometimes happen completely away from combat.

It just makes no sense.

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11 minutes ago, (PS4)SpIitSnake said:

Yep i use the typical Adrenaline + QT setup with pretty good efficiency. 

Its not Quick Thinking thats draining me, thats for sure. That ridiculous drain on energy will sometimes happen completely away from combat.

It just makes no sense.

is it only with nekros in the party?

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Yes, only when im healing his minions. But it should not be possible for the drain to ramp up that high.

Even if Nekros could somehow summon 20-30 minions, with the listed drain, i should be able to comfortably heal them.

But its somehow hitting me for 150+ energy per second, and i dont think theres a build in existance that can sustain that lol.

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4 hours ago, DrBorris said:

Math time...
but lets not forget that Oberon would be losing between around 15 and 20 energy per second based on your build.

I get it, you'r trying to play a bit of devil's advocate to make sure that both sides are shown, I try to do that sometimes as well. But in this case, the other "side" doesn't really exist.

however though, in the real world the Nekros would definitely have more Duration than that since he's probably going for Shield of Shadows. (or is using Energize, in which case both Players here probably have full Energy at all times anyways)

additionally in the real world an Oberon probably actually has some Duration and Efficiency, because atleast some is.... logical. rather than negative on both. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
the full drain from just 4 Players and 4 Companions is already pretty high, since the situation we've been painting here, is double negative Efficiency.

3 hours ago, KnightCole said:

Because Hallowed ground applies your channelled healing to anyone who passes through it. 

I do it all the time, allies outside my range, I run up, throw a rug under them to apply the healing and armor buff without having to turn off both and then cast them both again......

erm.... that's not quite how Renewal works. Renewal creates a field based on Oberon, that remains in the Casted location, permanently until the Ability is canceled.
if Players that were not in the original Cast Range want to get the benefit, they have to go to that invisible field where it was originally Casted.
in smaller Mission Types, that field can cover basically the entire map though (as long as one isn't using 34% Range), so the impact in those cases can be very minimal.

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2 hours ago, taiiat said:

however though, in the real world the Nekros would definitely have more Duration than that since he's probably going for Shield of Shadows. (or is using Energize, in which case both Players here probably have full Energy at all times anyways)

additionally in the real world an Oberon probably actually has some Duration and Efficiency, because atleast some is.... logical. rather than negative on both. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
the full drain from just 4 Players and 4 Companions is already pretty high, since the situation we've been painting here, is double negative Efficiency.

But... I just showed you how, at even mid levels (60 is mid at this point), the effects of this are marginal (and diminishes in value as enemy level rises). In the extreme fringe case where for some forsaken reason someone would want to use the Nekros+Oberon "synergy" it would have to be on extremely low level missions... where there is no need for advanced strategies because everything dies to a gust of wind.

And I apologize for not referencing the build for the 15-20 energy per second, but a build with 100% efficiency and 128% duration (pretty standard for an Oberon, my personal go-to) is 18 energy per second drain... I am not using fringe case builds as examples, but rather practical things people use. In my example I used 80 health per second which requires 200% strength, I guess you could fudge the build but when you do so you will lose power strength making the effect even more marginal.

 

The only reason someone would think this is a good synergy is if they don't understand the mechanics to begin with. The only "real world" implication of this anti-synergy is that Oberons have to go hide in a corner to cast Renewal if a Nekros is in the squad.

 

Edit: Just remembered that the energy drain on summons is 1 energy per second instead of 3 at base, so the energy drain numbers I said prior should be cut to a third. However, this does not change that the buff provided is still not practical.

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29 minutes ago, DrBorris said:

The only reason someone would think this is a good synergy is if they don't understand the mechanics to begin with.

very little of anything in the game is made with any recognition of Enemy Levels above Solar Map or Sorties, so it's much of the same then, that within the Enemy Levels that Digital Extremes recognizes at all, that it works.

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3 hours ago, taiiat said:

however though, in the real world the Nekros would definitely have more Duration than that since he's probably going for Shield of Shadows. (or is using Energize, in which case both Players here probably have full Energy at all times anyways)

additionally in the real world an Oberon probably actually has some Duration and Efficiency, because atleast some is.... logical. rather than negative on both. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
the full drain from just 4 Players and 4 Companions is already pretty high, since the situation we've been painting here, is double negative Efficiency.

The double negative efficiency actually only happened within the last week when I 'upgraded' Blind Rage to the next rank.  Cuz, well, 100 to 95 really isnt that big a difference.....as the 9% increase to power strength wasnt that big a difference either.  3 health points per second on the heal and like 24 armor points.

Plus, Oberon's heal really is pretty useless without high power strength.  30-40 points per second?  Thats next to nothing....which is kinda why I went for high strength.  Ofc, even at 263, the heal is only 105/s.  At 263, the heal's direct heal is only mid 300s....

I guess I could toy around with different numbers, and combos, but my desire to reforma Oberon over and over to do so, isnt that high.  Stalker likes to jump my ass incessantly when I forma frames.  I guess hes not super hard, but its annoying to see him so much when my frame is in S#&$ mode. 

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13 hours ago, (PS4)SpIitSnake said:

Yes, only when im healing his minions. But it should not be possible for the drain to ramp up that high.

Even if Nekros could somehow summon 20-30 minions, with the listed drain, i should be able to comfortably heal them.

But its somehow hitting me for 150+ energy per second, and i dont think theres a build in existance that can sustain that lol.

yea thats weird sounds like a bug

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