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KnightCole

Oberon vs Nekros

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On 2019-05-24 at 1:07 PM, AugustFestival said:

 

only to people who have renewal and the armor buff DOESN'T drain energy, nothing about hallowed ground drains energy except for activating it. Can you record a video of this phenomenon where you loose all your happening? Because its either a glitch or something you are doing and that would help us help you

Hallowed Ground doesnt drain energy, but the Hallowed Ground applies the buff to near by allies, that includes minions, which would then trigger reknewal, which would then trigger the drain. And its only a problem if the Nekros is defending the objective and im defending the objective and I need to actually use abilities to strip armor so I can kill S#&$. 

I honestly think the best course of action would simply be for DE to give Oberons heal a flat rate.....maybe 3/s period, increased or decreased by eff/duration. 

Oh and that bit about Duration also affecting efficiency, its retarded because whoever it was, said that 'something that runs longer drains more energy".  Well, the thing is, if your running the skill longer, your already draining more energy.  Soooo, with the duration affecting eff as well, the game is just double dipping.

Sooo, yeah, they can remove that feature while they are at it....

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I agree with OP. Remove it entirely or give it a reasonable flat rate. One of the best ways to build Oberon is for power strength. Negative efficiency is 0 problem with rage/hunter adrenaline and an energy pool. That is, it's 0 problem until nekros with 7, sometimes more, minions shows up. I can't just face tank during the entire mission to avoid running out of energy while I heal ghosts that are meant to lose health at varying rates.

I understand the logic behind casting Renewal off in a corner and hoping Nekros doesn't get it. Problem is, then no one else gets it unless they go to that  exact, unmarked spot or I post a message in chat like this: "Everyone go to the waypoint if you want healing, and Nekros don't bring your shadows, and also make sure they don't go into that area later when you do cast them... and if I need to recast Renewal, rinse and repeat please. Thanks!" 

It's pointless to heal shadows that Nekros himself should be managing. This isn't even a well known interaction, so it's unlikely that a Nekros player will see an Oberon and think "Hey he can heal my shadows for me!"

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13 minutes ago, (PS4)Quite_the_Cactus said:

I agree with OP. Remove it entirely or give it a reasonable flat rate. One of the best ways to build Oberon is for power strength. Negative efficiency is 0 problem with rage/hunter adrenaline and an energy pool. That is, it's 0 problem until nekros with 7, sometimes more, minions shows up. I can't just face tank during the entire mission to avoid running out of energy while I heal ghosts that are meant to lose health at varying rates.

I understand the logic behind casting Renewal off in a corner and hoping Nekros doesn't get it. Problem is, then no one else gets it unless they go to that  exact, unmarked spot or I post a message in chat like this: "Everyone go to the waypoint if you want healing, and Nekros don't bring your shadows, and also make sure they don't go into that area later when you do cast them... and if I need to recast Renewal, rinse and repeat please. Thanks!" 

It's pointless to heal shadows that Nekros himself should be managing. This isn't even a well known interaction, so it's unlikely that a Nekros player will see an Oberon and think "Hey he can heal my shadows for me!"

Exactly, the whole mechanic just makes it needlessly more difficult for Oberon for literally no gain on anyone's part.  I guess id have to play Nekros to see if that heal makes literally any damn difference at all to my Minions.  Honestly, I doubt it, since hes constantly recasting it as they die, and/or he summons up tougher ones as the mission progresses. So, retaining minions, I cant see how it benefits him all that much. 

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On 2019-05-22 at 5:44 PM, KnightCole said:

Oberon players hate every Nekros they ever meet

not every just most of them

 

On 2019-05-22 at 5:53 PM, Lutesque said:

They don't want the gameto be better.... they want it to be Grindy...

In any case I think a better fix would be to remove the Health Drain from Nekros's Zombie army. That way it would still drain Obeon's Energy but only if they take damage...

In the case of the infested, Oberon mighy actually want the Ancient Healer Zombies to stick around for the damage reduction...

Would that make Nekros too OP ? 

well yes and no.... yes it would be OP for him to have scaling Body Guards but ultimately its not going to make people say: "Oh wow... This Hydrolyst tough... I should have brought Nekros."

the problem is that shadows take constant damage over time Oberon only can heal at x rate dependent on power strength combine this with the shadows having a higher threat value (they get targeting priority) making rage less effective.  a Necrose using shadows shuts down the current Oberon builds because of the reliance on rage as an energy source even when they are not part of renewal.    the funny part is that both frames interfere with each other n multiple ways but that is more because of how they work and are used.  

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2 hours ago, KnightCole said:

Exactly, the whole mechanic just makes it needlessly more difficult for Oberon for literally no gain on anyone's part.  I guess id have to play Nekros to see if that heal makes literally any damn difference at all to my Minions.  Honestly, I doubt it, since hes constantly recasting it as they die, and/or he summons up tougher ones as the mission progresses. So, retaining minions, I cant see how it benefits him all that much.

the heal is a problem because it interferes with health conversion.  

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On 2019-05-24 at 10:08 AM, KnightCole said:

.duration affecting efficiency.

it always does.  even on chroma duration is better than efficiency mods most of the time.  granted the chart is confusing but -  duration starts screwing you over fast when it comes to channeled abilities and unless you are using a frame the does not use duration never go negative on both as it will make your life harder.  
 

On 2019-05-24 at 5:20 PM, KnightCole said:

The double negative efficiency actually only happened within the last week when I 'upgraded' Blind Rage to the next rank.  Cuz, well, 100 to 95 really isnt that big a difference.....as the 9% increase to power strength wasnt that big a difference either.  3 health points per second on the heal and like 24 armor points.

Plus, Oberon's heal really is pretty useless without high power strength.  30-40 points per second?  Thats next to nothing....which is kinda why I went for high strength.  Ofc, even at 263, the heal is only 105/s.  At 263, the heal's direct heal is only mid 300s....

I guess I could toy around with different numbers, and combos, but my desire to reforma Oberon over and over to do so, isnt that high.  Stalker likes to jump my ass incessantly when I forma frames.  I guess hes not super hard, but its annoying to see him so much when my frame is in S#&$ mode.

he could use numbers boost.  or a few changes to his scaling equations.  
 

On 2019-05-24 at 4:04 PM, ShimmerDoll said:

Will they ever get along?

they are polar opposites thematically and interfere with each other in-game so nope they never will

On 2019-05-23 at 1:45 AM, zoffmode said:

Honestly, that's not correct line of thinking. They reduced the negative impact while keeping the possibility for Nekros & Oberon to run an interesting setup where Oberon permanently keeps Nekros' summons alive. It could be a legitimate strategy, I don't see why DE would need to eliminate it just cause someone likes to run a highly specific build and doesn't want to bother working around it. Like it was said above, you can avoid marking summons with your heal. 

So, actually, I take my agreement with OP back. I prefer Oberon being able to heal summons, even if it is bothersome at times.

Oberon's heal is next to useless on them but it would be nice if it did not completely screw the Broberon Over

On 2019-05-23 at 1:53 AM, taiiat said:

Xzorn isn't suggesting that some Abilities are simply not the friendliest with each other so that they can be made to ignore each other so the game can be even more anti-social than it already is, but rather that it means that in order for Abilities to... do cool things and interact with each other and be Co-Operative - there are opposing sides to that.

Oberons really only want to be able to look at necros and not think parasite, he is worse than an energy leach eximis unite.  

On 2019-05-23 at 2:22 AM, (PS4)BattleCry1791 said:

How is Oberon being adversely affected by something it likely shouldn't be affected by removing co-operative features?

necros's 4 shadows summons some number of enemies that now are considered allies and can now be healed.  the problem comes because they take damage over time which forces an Oberon to heal them for x energy per second per enemy, on top of that they are more likely to be shot than the Oberon making it hard to take enough damage to sustain your heal.  this is made worse because of Oberon's low base EHP and non-existent armor when his 3 is offline.  overall necros can prevent Oberon from playing the game just by casting his 4 hence Oberon mains hate necroes as the two frames directly interfere with each other.  

On 2019-05-24 at 4:52 AM, AugustFestival said:

ts fine if you bring rage or hunter adrenaline but otherwise yea, idk why he has negative duration though, Phoenix renewal, quick thinking, hunter adrenaline, blind rage, etc, you shouldn't be having energy problems even with nekros

there are 2 parts to why necros is a massive problem for Oberon's he actively prevents us from getting energy.  

On 2019-05-24 at 8:35 AM, zoffmode said:

No Oberon is not invalidated if there's Nekros around, only your build is. 

I have an efficient build and it is also invalidated by a necros' 4.  most Oberon builds are due to the inability to get energy mentioned above 
build https://tennoware.com/warframes/oberon prime/11022110010w405m403p810w605y510p710y810y910j405c10500000000

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On 2019-05-22 at 6:47 PM, trst said:

It's probably still a thing because you're posting feedback in the general discussion forums.

Also you can't just make the claim that all Oberon's hate Nekros, you're not the sum of all Oberon players, or that there is no logical reason for the feature. Some Oberon players might actually want to be able to keep other players summons alive.

no most Oberon's hate this interaction and therefore hate the I press all the buttons but the useful one necroses

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On 2019-05-22 at 6:38 PM, taiiat said:

it's already "fixed". Players are 3/sec, and non Players are 1/sec. reduced cost since it isn't a Player.

you weren't draining 186 Energy/sec like you say, not even close to it. if you were draining quite fast, it was.... more likely to do with Energy Leech Eximus, not that there was a few extra targets. with any sort of reasonable Mod Loadout, you would still be draining <10/sec even when covering all Players, 7 Shadows, and 4 Companions. assuming that all of them needed Healing simultaneously, because Energy is only drained for targets that actually need the Healing(the Shadows obviously need the Healing at all times but if it's only them then you're looking at <3/sec).

sounds more like user error.

no, they still cost a stupid amount of energy and prevent your energy regen.  

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On 2019-05-22 at 10:10 PM, zoffmode said:

I agree with you... but you do know you can cast heal in an area away from where Nekros keeps his pets, right? Just cast it at start of mission or in specific room then ask Nekros to not bring his pets back there. 

this works if the necros is not an ass I have seen them cast in the renewal circle on hallowed ground that was marked and called out (a standard Oberon tactic so that all frames get the armor buff and renewal at the same time)

on a side note casting it up high and out of the way will help in this regard.  

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On 2019-05-22 at 9:38 PM, taiiat said:

it's already "fixed". Players are 3/sec, and non Players are 1/sec. reduced cost since it isn't a Player.

It's not a fix when certain non-players, read Shadows, are CONSTANTLY losing heal even when out of combat. If there's 7 Shadows, that's at least an additional 7 energy per sec being drained CONSTANTLY.

Nekros players are supposed to take care of their decaying entourage themselves. Casting SoTD a second time will heal existing Shadows. 

 

I'll say it again. Shadows are a needless drain on Oberon's energy, especially when Nekros players ALREADY have a means of healing their minions.

DE, you need to stop Shadows from being affected by Renewal, because it doesn't really help Nekros players much and it's a punishing drain on Oberons built around trying to keep the other players in the group alive.

Shadows are disposable. They're meant to expire.

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18 minutes ago, MirageKnight said:

It's not a fix when certain non-players, read Shadows, are CONSTANTLY losing heal even when out of combat. If there's 7 Shadows, that's an addition 7 energy per sec being drained CONSTANTLY.

Nekros players are supposed to take care of their decaying entourage themselves. Casting SoTD a second time will heal existing Shadows. 

 

I'll say it again. Shadows are a needless drain on Oberon's energy, especially when Nekros players ALREADY have a means of healing their minions.

DE, you need to stop Shadows from being affected by Renewal, because it doesn't really help Nekros players much and it's a punishing drain on Oberons built around trying to keep the other players in the group alive.

Shadows are disposable. They're meant to expire.

LOL, its not 1 per target.  Go strip your Oberon of all its mods.  The base energy is 2/s normal drain and 3/s per target drain.

Cuz lets be real, if it was actually 1/s per target, that wouldnt be nearly as bad.  I have 95 eff and 73 duration.  My energy cost per target is like 2.93/s and 4.36 per target.  If it started at 3 and 1, it would be a fair bit less.....

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37 minutes ago, KnightCole said:

LOL, its not 1 per target.  Go strip your Oberon of all its mods.  The base energy is 2/s normal drain and 3/s per target drain.

I kinda suspected as much. 

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1 hour ago, KnightCole said:

LOL, its not 1 per target.  Go strip your Oberon of all its mods.  The base energy is 2/s normal drain and 3/s per target drain.

incorrect. as has you have been informed already, it is 3/sec for Players, and 1/sec for all non Player Allies.

do you have any proof of this Bug you are implying here? (i know you're not actually implying a Bug)

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1 hour ago, taiiat said:

incorrect. as has you have been informed already, it is 3/sec for Players, and 1/sec for all non Player Allies.

do you have any proof of this Bug you are implying here? (i know you're not actually implying a Bug)

Bug?  No, but I can read.  I stripped my Oberon of his mods and it reads: Energy Drain: 2/s and Target Drain: 3/s.

Plus , if its 3 and 1, the idk I have 2.54/s Drain and 4.34/s Target drain.  I would need something like -434% eff to get numbers that high from a 1....

Sooo maybe were not playing the same game, but I sure as S#&amp;&#036; dont get 3 and 1...

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13 minutes ago, KnightCole said:

Energy Drain: 2/s and Target Drain: 3/s.

the 2/sec reading is the base cost that Renewal costs at all times, whether you're Healing something or not.

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46 minutes ago, taiiat said:

the 2/sec reading is the base cost that Renewal costs at all times, whether you're Healing something or not.

Boy they really tax the S#&amp;&#036; of Oberons heal.  2/s drain just for being on, then 3 just for me?  Then 1 for my cat?  So just me alone its 6/s?  Or in my case, more like 8.  Never mind if im healing 3 teammates and 3 pets.....then 7 nekros pets.  Its still pretty damn dumb.  Sure, sure it makes sense, but still, what other frames get their energy pool like triple dipped and then taxed for good measure just for using 1 skill?

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1 hour ago, KnightCole said:

Boy they really tax the S#&amp;&#036; of Oberons heal.  2/s drain just for being on, then 3 just for me?  Then 1 for my cat?  So just me alone its 6/s?  Or in my case, more like 8.  Never mind if im healing 3 teammates and 3 pets.....then 7 nekros pets.  Its still pretty damn dumb.  Sure, sure it makes sense, but still, what other frames get their energy pool like triple dipped and then taxed for good measure just for using 1 skill?

well, considering Renewal is like uh, one of like 2 or 3 Energy Drain Abilities in the game that you can still easily gain Energy while active outside of a couple global exceptions(since the Energy is being Drained to counteract the exact thing that Energy on Health Damage affects, while other Energy Drain Abilites have nothing to do with sustaining Health at all) - it's no wonder the Costs are higher. for the potential to never have to Cast the Ability a second time, it ends up costing more.

Pacify (Equinox) can be much crazier, since it drains based on Enemy Count, and there's a hell of a lot more of them than us. and you don't even get the full rated benefit for that Energy cost on most of the Enemies since it has multiple Range levels (a form of falloff).
it can get expensive but i can still totally make it work since like Renewal, it conveniently cheats and i can refill Energy while using it. (not that i'm complaining at all in the cast of Pacify since Peaceful Provocation can take more than 5 minutes to charge in unlucky situations).

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15 hours ago, spirit_of_76 said:

this works if the necros is not an ass I have seen them cast in the renewal circle on hallowed ground that was marked and called out (a standard Oberon tactic so that all frames get the armor buff and renewal at the same time)

on a side note casting it up high and out of the way will help in this regard.  

at least you admit that this is a thing... knightcole for some reason insists that hallowed ground is applied by renewal

look I can see how it could be frustrating, i think DE should bring down the energy drain to zero for nekros minions or if that ends up being too powerful, 0.5, thats only 3.5 energy drain with 7, with rage or hunter adrenaline that is very much a level that is sustainable, especially if you aren't like op and don't go for negative duration and efficiency increasing the drain on renewal by a lot.

I have 55% efficiency with no negative duration and I can sustain nekros shadows for a good amount of time so I imagine halving the cost of the drain would make it perfectly easy to deal with. Bring a energy syndicate weapon, dig or the dethcub mod along with hunter adrenaline, very easily sustainable, especially at higher levels where you WILL be taking damage, at lower levels? you don't need to keep renewal on all the time.

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6 hours ago, taiiat said:

well, considering Renewal is like uh, one of like 2 or 3 Energy Drain Abilities in the game that you can still easily gain Energy while active outside of a couple global exceptions(since the Energy is being Drained to counteract the exact thing that Energy on Health Damage affects, while other Energy Drain Abilites have nothing to do with sustaining Health at all) - it's no wonder the Costs are higher. for the potential to never have to Cast the Ability a second time, it ends up costing more.

Pacify (Equinox) can be much crazier, since it drains based on Enemy Count, and there's a hell of a lot more of them than us. and you don't even get the full rated benefit for that Energy cost on most of the Enemies since it has multiple Range levels (a form of falloff).
it can get expensive but i can still totally make it work since like Renewal, it conveniently cheats and i can refill Energy while using it. (not that i'm complaining at all in the cast of Pacify since Peaceful Provocation can take more than 5 minutes to charge in unlucky situations).

peacemaker, undertow, world on fire, mend and maim, pacify and provoke, hysteria, absorb, sandstorm, razorwing and soundquake all cost more than renewal's base cost of 2 

knightcole thinks this is a huge amount....  I didn't even list all the abilities that cost more than the base because its the majority of them.... dude just straight up does not understand how the game works, which would be fine except he is being aggressive in wallowing in ignorance and demanding the game be balanced based on it.

so even if rage and hunter adrenaline didn't exist oberon would still have one of the lowest costing skills and because they DO exist oberon has effectively the lowest cost channeling ability because the drain is effectively negated by energy gain on health damage, the only channeling abilities who come close to oberons cost are hydroid's and valkyrs because they both have self heal, unless im missing one.

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On 2019-05-28 at 11:18 AM, KnightCole said:

Hallowed Ground doesnt drain energy, but the Hallowed Ground applies the buff to near by allies, that includes minions, which would then trigger reknewal, which would then trigger the drain.

I agree wholeheartedly with removing the Renewal energy drain from Nekros' specters, but some of this information is wrong. 

The Renewal buff stays in one spot; casting Hallowed Ground anywhere does not enable the basic Renewal heal buff to be gained by an ally.  All that Hallowed Ground does is give an armor buff to an ally who is already affected by the same Oberon's Renewal heal buff. 

Hallowed Ground can be recast all over the place, giving many opportunities for a Renewal heal-buffed ally to also gain the armor buff, but the only way to change where the main Renewal buff can be acquired is by recasting it.  If an Oberon casts Hallowed Ground and an unbuffed ally walks over it, the ally gets neither a heal nor an armor buff.  They have to go back to the Renewal's original cast location to get the heal buff, then back to a Hallowed Ground for the armor buff.

DE really needs to make Renewal less complicated, or at least give the cast location a persistent visible effect to show people where it is while it's active.  It's hard to direct a party to a new Renewal casting spot when the buff drops off due to falling off the map or running out of juice.

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1 hour ago, AugustFestival said:

I have 55% efficiency with no negative duration and I can sustain nekros shadows for a good amount of time so I imagine halving the cost of the drain would make it perfectly easy to deal with. Bring a energy syndicate weapon, dig or the dethcub mod along with hunter adrenaline, very easily sustainable, especially at higher levels where you WILL be taking damage, at lower levels? you don't need to keep renewal on all the time.

I am surprised by this if I am trying to sustain shadows on an efficient build I will be hemorrhaging energy faster than I can get it back most of the time (this is not a heal related problem but I am not taking damage related problem)

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5 minutes ago, FatherGrimm said:

I agree wholeheartedly with removing the Renewal energy drain from Nekros' specters, but some of this information is wrong. 

The Renewal buff stays in one spot; casting Hallowed Ground anywhere does not enable the basic Renewal heal buff to be gained by an ally.  All that Hallowed Ground does is give an armor buff to an ally who is already affected by the same Oberon's Renewal heal buff. 

Hallowed Ground can be recast all over the place, giving many opportunities for a Renewal heal-buffed ally to also gain the armor buff, but the only way to change where the main Renewal buff can be acquired is by recasting it.  If an Oberon casts Hallowed Ground and an unbuffed ally walks over it, the ally gets neither a heal nor an armor buff.  They have to go back to the Renewal's original cast location to get the heal buff, then back to a Hallowed Ground for the armor buff.

As an Oberon main, I will say that this is correct. To add to this, the Renewal "zone" is placed wherever the Oberon happens to be standing when casting the ability. The zone has a radius as well.

5 minutes ago, FatherGrimm said:

DE really needs to make Renewal less complicated, or at least give the cast location a persistent visible effect to show people where it is while it's active.  It's hard to direct a party to a new Renewal casting spot when the buff drops off due to falling off the map or running out of juice.

Bolded and italicized for needed emphasis if you don't mind.

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2 hours ago, AugustFestival said:

 

Any other response from you that says how hallowed ground applies renewal will result in my copy pasting my quoted response above.

I and @taiiat (who you conveniently ignored) have both explained how it does not,

stop spreading false crap and using slurs. Stop acting like a buffoon.

You've made threads and commented in threads complaining about this for YEARS and you still don't know how Oberon works? or are you just trolling.

IF you aren't trolling and you don't even know how Oberon works, why should DE even consider balancing the game based on what you say, especially because your other thing about wanting to remove duration efficiency is ridiculous and would nerf a huge amount of frames, mesa, harrow, oberon, etc. 

 

So why do I see the reknewal buff icon appear on allies when they enter my dance floor then?  I literally did it within the last couple days in a Kuva Farm, standing in the survival extraction. THe guy standing there, the icon appeared beside him, then my brother flew into the extraction circle after I laid it down and he got buffed.  Did the same thing to a random Rhino in a survival yesterday.

As for the duration affecting effiiciency, I would only suggest it for Oberon.  Its just a double dipping of his energy drain. Makes little sense, your already using more energy by way of having the effect still running, how does that equal using even more energy per second, above the normal amount?  How do other frames benefit from low duration sapping hordes more energy anyway?  I know Trinity, her 2, something about the energy drain works faster if it has low duration...or I swear thats what ive heard...

Im not trolling, im going based on what I see.  I know, I know, games these days like to show you one thing, but then have 10 secret mechanics that you wont know unless your a no lifer who data mines and extensively and deeply tests stuff out....Ashisogi Tenno did this in several videos, he showed many of the sekrit dokuments and abilities frame abilities have, beyond what the description shows.  Wargaming's games are great at this.....

And what I do know, is that making Oberon heal minions that A: Automatically and endlessly drain, and B: can easily be recast by the Nekros himself, is just stupid.  Then Nekros wants to recast them as the mission progresses anyway.  He doesnt want to be stuck with the same pack of Butchers that he raised at the 5 minute mark.  Eventually he wants them to die, so he can raise Eximus Bombards and S#&amp;&#036; later... Forget all the other S#&amp;&#036;, that little interaction alone is all I want to see gone.....And gone, not reduced further, not 'oh you just need to rework your build to accommodate it', no, GONE.  Its a mechanic and its type only affects Oberon.  What other frame or ability in the game when X casts or uses skills, Y gets more energy drain, or Y suddenly deals less damage? 

All this other stuff about how reknewal works and crap is fairly pointless to the whole discussion.  Literally, your suggesting if a Nekros is in the group, on say, a defense mission, that I fly off to a random corner of the map to cast my spell. That is all well and good until the Nekros happens upon the outer edge of the Reknewal area and boop, done.....Defense missions tend to be fairly small anyway.  Or in a survival, im just supposed to wait until I get to some random deep dark corner of the map, where hopefully the NEkros would never go, to cast my heal?  No, its just a down right stupid ass mechanic.  I guess people have touted 'nerf teamwork' for years, I never thought dev teams would find ways to actually do it.

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