My view on why Warframe feels repetitive (the 15 minute loop)

[quxier]

4 minutes ago, Steel_Rook said:

I'm aware, yes. But it still requires interacting with it, waiting out the timer AND re-earning the Granum Coin, which means finishing the mission. On Cassini, I would just abort if the Larvling had the wrong weapon.

Yeah, make sense.

5 minutes ago, Steel_Rook said:

I think the bigger underlying issue is that Warframe has turned into an online casino with a video game attached to the side. Barely anyone seems to care for the actual gameplay any more. The only consideration is "what's the cheapest I can hit the lever for, because I'll need to keep hitting it until the slot machine gives me my reward." Take away the slot machine and you're left with a relatively hollow experience because less development time goes into improving the moment-to-moment experience relative to the time, money and effort spent on improving the "Warframe-themed slot machine."

It's either grind or RNG.

 

Open worlds started new activities. Some where little less annoying some more anoying but still "new". Fortuna improved some but it stagnated with Deimos. Maybe Duvri brings new activities without annoying enemies (e.g. at least no enemy mode). However Open world make some stuffs less grindy because you have to do many things.

After Deimos it was about RJ... and it was boring. From my experience RJ is overcomplicated mess same as open world bounties - many different things but you are using "the best" gear. I've watched RJ stuffs and only Volatile seems new. I wish I could try it but... I would have to go through all this RJ stuffs.

 

As for RNG sometimes it's bearable sometimes not

6 minutes ago, Steel_Rook said:

As someone who buys most of his gear any more, I'm left with a game that COULD be compelling if only the development team tried. I'm left with a game, in other words, that feels nearly abandoned. Oh, sure - we'll get new slot machines, new lootboxes, new gacha mechanics but as to gameplay? Bread crumbs. Railjack 3.0 was a massive shot in the arm because it brought a ton of content, but that's after a year of "not much." Oh, they'll throw in more artwork, but systems design always seems to get left for "later." How many years have they been talking about Pets now? What happened to Warframe Revised? What happened to Status?

Not very complicated is nice. I don't mind going to Exterminate. However if I had to (I've watched it so take it with grain of salt) go with all RJ stuffs through 10+ minutes and have a small chance at 12th Orphix then I don't think I would play it...

For me last "fun" update were Deimos. With RJ I've just bought Sevagoth... and let Helminth eat it few days ago seeing no big changes in him.

Art, sounds or music is great. If I were rich I would 3D print (or tell someone to make me) a lot of weapons. Some of them are just beautiful for example Sarpa. But gameplay wise? Using Sarpa & Bullet dance as example:

- normal combo moves you forward (at least look like it)

- forward combo slash around you

- one combo just touches enemy not doing any damage, status or just anything

- sliding & slam attacks are nice

- block combo seems nice but ... it's not perfect (it moves your cursor)

- good status

 

 

[Steel_Rook]

On 2021-06-10 at 6:38 PM, quxier said:

It's either grind or RNG.

In the bizarro world where we have to choose the form of our destructor, I'll take "grind" over RNG. Within reason, obviously, but I'll always take tangible progress with each action over "maybe I make a lot of progress, maybe I make $&*^-all." The problem is that deterministic, tangible progression doesn't have the same addiction capacity as gambling. People take one look at the progress bar and go "OK, that's too much. I won't do that." With gambling, even if it's 0.1% drop chance, a lot of people look at that and go "I'm feeling lucky! Hit that lever!" even though the "expected runs" stat is in the hundreds. The human mind is generally pretty terrible at estimating probability, so people consistently BADLY overestimate how many times they'll have to spin the slot machine to get a reward, vs. being straight-up told how many times they need to do it.

As much credit as I want to give DE, I can't really excuse them from following the trend of turning online games into game-themed virtual casinos. Just look at how many people behave as though they resent the core gameplay experience but play it anyway for the rewards. Apparently that's sustainable in the long-run because gamers are clearly prone to acting against their own self-interest. However, this is the prime reason why older gamers and veterans alike tend to develop a progressively more negative opinion of modern games. Sure, part of it is players mistaking burnout for flaws in the game (we're all guilty of it), but it's the game's core design of addicting players through gambling that CAUSES burnout in the first place.

If players look at the game and think "There's nothing left for me to do!" then LET THEM LEAVE. If you let them leave happy, they'll be back next time you release a major patch. Keeping them around until they can't stand the thought of your game ensures they'll never be back.

 

On 2021-06-10 at 6:38 PM, quxier said:

After Deimos it was about RJ... and it was boring. From my experience RJ is overcomplicated mess same as open world bounties - many different things but you are using "the best" gear. I've watched RJ stuffs and only Volatile seems new. I wish I could try it but... I would have to go through all this RJ stuffs.

I disagree on Railjack. By this point, it's pretty much the only part of Warframe I really enjoy playing. I like the space combat, I like the larger open spaces, I like the generally non-linear design, plus it's the only place where I get to use all of my tools (sans K-Drive, but who cares about those?). I get to fly my Railjack and my Archwing, use my ground weapons and my Necramech and even occasionally my Operator since it's simpler to do when piloting the Mech. Now that Railjack features proper ground missions, too, it's the best of both worlds. There's a certain amount of "physicality" to it not present in the rest of the game, too. I don't just click a button and "appear" inside an enemy ship. I need to physically move my ship into range, then cover the distance myself and either find an entrance or make one.

This is part of the reason I'm holding off for the next update. As much as I like Railjack, there's only so much gameplay I can get out of it when 2 of the 4 mission types (real mission types - not Skirmish) are horrible. Defence sucks ass and Orphyx way too tryhard for my tastes. Next update seems to have more Railjack missions, which would be great for me. I'm still waiting for Necramechs to become useful in all missions, too. I don't even care about "rewards." I just enjoy the gameplay aspect of it.

[quxier]

48 minutes ago, Steel_Rook said:

I'll take "grind" over RNG. Within reason, obviously, but I'll always take tangible progress with each action over "maybe I make a lot of progress, maybe I make $&*^-all."

For me both can be bad but in different way.

I've played Orphix event with Rent-a-mech. It was lot of grind but it was worth (some Lavos part, some weapon & parts, Simulacrum etc). However after month of non-stop playing Mech I got really bored about it (I don't like the mechs to begin with). I guess that's your "within reasons".

As for RNG it can be bad & good (or at least close to neutral). Soloing radiant relics is a joke. You gather some stuffs to upgrade, do a mission and you get probably nothing worth the effort. You cannot do too much with the results (you can sell prime parts but that might be as low as 1 plat... if someone wants it). On other hand random drops from Orphix (you get points but random drops made you buy 1 part less) or Disruption effects (e.g. you can deal with faster enemies).

1 hour ago, Steel_Rook said:

sans K-Drive, but who cares about those?

Me. I won't say I'm excited (mainly Sevagoth but last few frames as well make me more realist than optimist) but I'm waiting for Yareli's K-drive. Except passive her kit is boring but her K-drive MIGHT be interesting.

Depending how she can use k-drive mods (can she) then it might be reason to grind my standing (or just buy mods :D ).

1 hour ago, Steel_Rook said:

I like the space combat, I like the larger open spaces, I like the generally non-linear design, plus it's the only place where I get to use all of my tools (sans K-Drive, but who cares about those?). I get to fly my Railjack and my Archwing, use my ground weapons and my Necramech and even occasionally my Operator since it's simpler to do when piloting the Mech

And I'm almost opposite of you. I don't like space combat (ships, RJ and such). I don't like Mechs. Archwing is... okeish. Operator is useful but we got frames (unless there is something like "no frame ala-mode). I like to get personal (using melee weapons... if they make them good).

And I like linear design. I mean not in 100% but if I go to exterminate I don't want to do spy. This makes me use "the best" gears. I used 1 frame per open world... which is bad in my opinion.

1 hour ago, Steel_Rook said:

Now that Railjack features proper ground missions, too, it's the best of both worlds. There's a certain amount of "physicality" to it not present in the rest of the game, too. I don't just click a button and "appear" inside an enemy ship. I need to physically move my ship into range, then cover the distance myself and either find an entrance or make one.

This just over complicate stuffs for reasons. I don't want to beat whole army just to encounter a boss. Mixing missions types isn't exciting for me. Getting into enemy ship...  that's so interesting (sarcasm). I want to be space Ninja, slipping into enemy ship and doing amazing stuffs. Not going space pirate.

1 hour ago, Steel_Rook said:

This is part of the reason I'm holding off for the next update. As much as I like Railjack, there's only so much gameplay I can get out of it when 2 of the 4 mission types (real mission types - not Skirmish) are horrible. Defence sucks ass and Orphyx way too tryhard for my tastes. Next update seems to have more Railjack missions, which would be great for me. I'm still waiting for Necramechs to become useful in all missions, too. I don't even care about "rewards." I just enjoy the gameplay aspect of it.

And here I'll probably buy Yareli, check Sisters' weapons but I probably couldn't even buy them (RJ exclusive because....stuffs).

[(PSN)Vexx757]

Another problem is that they don`t make mission that evolve around warframe`s abilities/playstyle

 

Here is an example of a game-mode that does this;

A mission where enemies cannot be killed however if affected by a cc they are open to be killed.

What frames will be useful here?

Vauban, Hydroid, Nyx, Inaros

Basically any cc warframe are useful. Just by this alone you have made a certain group of frame useful

 

Example 2

7 years ago wf was all about cc to the point of where ppl were saying "Vauban is king" even when his abilities were somewhat bad back then, nerfs was not happening as much and ppl were not obsessed with damage as they are now.

 

DE need to start making mission for every playstyle that will create different metas in those missions instead of bloody damage all the time. This alone will make a big difference.

[(NSW)Greybones]

On 2021-06-11 at 12:32 AM, Steel_Rook said:

I don't know if Warframe even CAN get to that point any more, since so many players have accepted it as the veritable cow clicker it has turned into, but I can still dream.

I mean.... 😏

edit: Oh wait, you've got this hang-up on "The proper way for things to work". Forget I said anything 🤫

...That... weird, weird hang-up

Edited June 14, 2021 by (NSW)Greybones

[syl42]

Il y a 3 heures, (PSN)Vexx757 a dit :

Another problem is that they don`t make mission that evolve around warframe`s abilities/playstyle

 

Here is an example of a game-mode that does this;

A mission where enemies cannot be killed however if affected by a cc they are open to be killed.

What frames will be useful here?

Vauban, Hydroid, Nyx, Inaros

Basically any cc warframe are useful. Just by this alone you have made a certain group of frame useful

 

Example 2

7 years ago wf was all about cc to the point of where ppl were saying "Vauban is king" even when his abilities were somewhat bad back then, nerfs was not happening as much and ppl were not obsessed with damage as they are now.

 

DE need to start making mission for every playstyle that will create different metas in those missions instead of bloody damage all the time. This alone will make a big difference.

Disruption is kinda like that if you don't have the DPS. You need a fast frame with some decent DPS. But if you don't, you need some way to slowdown the target. This can be achieved with Nova or Gloom.

But I understand why they don't do "mission that can only be done by a few warframes". Not everyone has all the warframe, especially new players.

[CephalonCarnage]

On 2021-06-13 at 3:27 PM, Steel_Rook said:

I like the generally non-linear design, [...]. Now that Railjack features proper ground missions

Unfortunately that is a linear design. The Grineer missions are far, far better as they are "do what you like when you like". I wish , dearly, that corpus RJ was like the grineer, then they'd be fun.

[0relllius]

Simple answer, every part requires grind a non-stop repetitive one until you get what you want. That's a thing that always been in shooter - looter games. It's like that in TD2, Outriders, Borderlands and every game with a statistics loot that requires you to find you the perfect one. in Warframe it's quite different as you have to grind your ass to get parts to create a specific weapon.

 

In bottom line, DE should work a bit more on the grinding aspect of the game and make it less "grindy" so lazy people like my friends and people around the forums here stop bragging about it being repetitive. 

[Lutesque]

15 Minutes is an absurdly high duration to not Repeating Anything.... I think only truly legendary games can pull off something that long....

10 Minutes of no repetition would be more realistic and even then.... that's still Beyond DE's capability I would imagine.... No Offense...

On 2019-05-23 at 12:56 PM, Teridax68 said:

However, I don't think that's exactly what makes the game repetitive: when you look at the whole breadth of content Warframe has on offer, there are actually a lot of different things the player can do, much more than in most other games, so if the game's feeling repetitive still, there's a problem. Conversely, I'd say the "15-minute loop" for any part of the game is fairly alright: the core movement, ability usage, and shooting are all well-liked, and as mentioned above, most individual missions give a few different things to do. I don't think many players feel like the movement or shooting are repetitive, even though they're the most heavily-repeated parts of the game.

I don't think you understand the type of Repetition OP is talking about.... 

Yes Warframe has many things you can do in terms of Content but the Loop with in each part of that Content is Short.... The loop refers to the Sequence of Gameplay that doesn't repeat in particular set of actions. And as far as I know Warframe has absolutely nothing longer than a 2 Minute Loop....

To put it simply... Warframe is as Wide as The Ocean but as Deep as a Puddle.... There needs to be less content with longer loops....

OP's summary of Eidolon Fights are just perfect.... The process of Capturing An Eidolon is extremely repetitive.... The only break in the Loop is gathering the Lures but since all 8 Lures can be rounded up at the Start of the hunt all in less than 4 Minutes (probably 5 now that Blink got Nerfed) that just leaves you between Alternating between Taking Down The Shields and Taking Off The Limbs.... That loop last literally only for 60 or 90 Seconds depending on your Squad and 30 of those Seconds is spent staring at this ugly Giant Skeleton as it Screams....

That's not even accounting for the fact that that's what the the experience is like when viewed from a unified perspective of the squad..... It's even worse when you look at what each Player is Doing Individually.... As The Roles have different levels of interaction during the two respective Phases..... Those who are responsible for taking down the Shields won't have much to do during the Limb Breaking Phase and those who who responsible for taking out The Limbs won't have much to do during the Shield Phase....

When I hunt with Trinity.... The only thing I do is The Shield Phase and using Bless once every 45 Seconds.... It's a relatively Short Loop hence why it's so damn Tedius....

It's abit Better with Volt because he can help with Limbs and Shields in non-Optimized Squads....

On 2019-05-23 at 12:56 PM, Teridax68 said:

 

With this in mind, I think the real reason Warframe feels repetitive is because its structure makes us run the same 15-minute loop (or, more usually, 5- or 10-minute loop) over and over again until we get sick of it, before moving onto the next bit. Running a Thermia Fracture once or twice in a day would likely feel okay, but after the fifteenth time in a row, it's understandable that things would start to feel a little less fresh.

The Thermia Fractures Loop isn't 10 or 5 Minutes.... Just like the Eidolon Hunts it's more like 10 Seconds.... It's probably the shortest and the most common loop Warframe has.... Baby Sitting Something while murdering Hoards of Enemies.... Every Pull of the trigger is the Start of a New Loop because there's nothing even close to remembling an intricate and varied Sequence of Actions.... What Fractures are is a 5 Second Loop repeated enough Times to Last 5 Minutes....  Which is an Excessive amount of Repetition.

On 2019-05-23 at 12:56 PM, Teridax68 said:

The reason we're made to do this is because we're being pushed to progress towards specific rewards, and the only way to obtain those rewards is usually to repeat the same mission over and over again. Our bite-sized bits of diverse content therefore end up becoming isolated from each other, and we end up drilling the same mission type in the hope of finally getting what we want, a process made all the more unrewarding given the random nature of most rewards, meaning most of our time in Warframe ends up being time largely wasted.

Pretty Much The Curse Of This Game....

Infact I'd go as Far as saying it's impractical for any game to try and sustain Player Interest through Content Updates rather than Engaging Activities. There's no Studio Large enough with enough Personal to produce that much content and even if there was the player base doesn't consist of players with infinite Hard Drive Space or Internet Bandwidth to keep up with that Rate of Content Production.... And yet this is the model DE is trying to roll with 🤔 !!!!

On 2019-05-23 at 12:56 PM, Teridax68 said:

 

Because of this, I think Warframe would feel a lot less repetitive if it gave us multiple paths to get towards any reward, and in fact encouraged us to shake things up by doing different bits of content for any one reward, instead of having us repeat the same 10 minutes of content until we hate it and never want to touch it again. There are likely many different ways to accomplish this, but I think it will inevitably have to involve moving away from random rewards, and instead letting us choose what kind of content we wish to play, even if time spent playing remains the same.

It would certainly be an improvement.... But the content focus approach would still be unsustainable.... It would be alot less Tedius but still Not Sustainable....

On 2019-05-23 at 1:34 PM, Fallen_Echo said:

If you think about it DE never really tried to do any kind of gameplay loops.

Pretty Much....

Except with Harrow.... His Loop seems pretty Intentional... 😝 And it's pretty good....

On 2021-06-07 at 2:26 AM, Zelion_Cormac said:

The whole issue here seems to revolve around loops. If that's the case, then PvE games just aren't for you, or rather, PvE games that are seemingly endless. You're better off playing games that has an ending and that is it. You can quit, uninstall and stop playing it altogether. Enter PvP games where you're facing players with unlimited variations in their gameplay. But it's different for Warframe.

Horizontal progressions allows you to unlock quests, weapons, and basically more options for you to play with. These options allows you to explore and experiment, not mindlessly level up just cause you want or need to. I like using a Pandero to unload my magazine on an enemy or a Heliocor so I don't have whip out the codex/synthesis scanner or even use a Boltor simply because nailing enemies to walls feels like pure terror to me. The ranking up loop is normal as playing quests in other PvE games like Genshin Impact or Guild Wars except it's weapons which I reckon is far easier and quicker to level up. 

In a mission, you fail once or twice for the first time playing, but it's not like you're gonna keep failing isn't it? You get better at it eventually and then you can cheese right through it. I get a good laugh when I can complete a mission in 30 seconds just because I can. I also feel amazing when I can beat a boss on my own. You just can't expect DE to change enemy movesets and variations from time to time. Can't expect an Eidolyst or Orb Mother to just alter their playstyle as if they're actual players. WE are the real players here. WE control the game. WE should be the ones changing our playstyle however we want. Instead of using a Chroma with Rubico, why not Volt with Redeemer? Or Mirage with Velocitus? Or even a Rhino with Corvas? These are the things we're suppose to think of in a game like Warframe. Wanna feel less repetitive? Start getting creative. Being contented with one type of playstyle makes the game boring and lackluster. There will be no perspiration without these inspirations. 

I only agree to the bounty missions in Cetus simply because they feel similar to the normal mission nodes we play all day long. There's a capture bounty, an exterminate bounty, a rescue bounty. DE could definitely do a rework on that. I do however, enjoy the Fortuna and Necralisk bounties. They're unique, fun, and nothing like I've experienced in normal missions. 

With that being said, PvE games are always gonna be repetitive. It's up to you to find some joy in them. If you have already mastered the massive content Warframe has to offer, then I can only suggest for you to take a break and try something else. My only issue is the bugs, especially the one that randomly prevents me from using abilities and attacks in a mission. 

NECROMANCY !!!! 😱

 

[Teridax68]

3 minutes ago, Lutesque said:

I don't think you understand the type of Repetition OP is talking about.... 

On the contrary, I think I understood it just fine, given that my post builds upon the OP to explain why some loops are considered more fun than others. It is your own definition of loops that frames the problem in a fundamentally wrong way, because it is neither necessary nor even reasonable for Warframe to try to have us perform a sequence of completely unrepeated moves for exceedingly long periods of time. The point of my post is that it is fine for most our gameplay to be some variation of moving and shooting, because that's what the game is good at, and not the problem with its repetition. Complaining about the specifics of a single Eidolon hunt and the like, while perhaps valid in and of itself, doesn't really say much on why players keep running into the issue of repetition with every new content update: really, the problem isn't just that this content often recycles too much stuff, but that the game's incentives are structured in such a way that we're made to repeat the same bit of content ad nauseam until we get what we came for. If we were made to do a greater variety of content to achieve any one goal, we'd still be running into similar loops of moving and shooting and the like, but there would be significantly more variety if there were changes in context, objectives, environments, and so on throughout.

 

[(PSN)Vexx757]

On 2021-06-14 at 3:40 PM, syl42 said:

But I understand why they don't do "mission that can only be done by a few warframes". Not everyone has all the warframe, especially new players.

You say that but they have, what mission is that? ESO. You can only bring DPS frames their, any other frame is useless their if your taking it seriously. SO the way I see it if DE can make a mission that is exclusively for DPS frames then they can make game-modes for other frame playstyles (stealth).