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(XB1)XArch AngelX86

Regarding Nightwave

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It seems what i have been trying to mention repeatedly on the feedback forum and people seem to ignore or not take a single care in the world about.

The Nightwave system used to lock major progression/power creep items like the umbra forma behind a battle pass syndicate grind that is also time gated will have adverse effects in the future and will only divide the player base between the sweaty people that have way too much time on their hands. this shouldn't be a thing, forma gives a huge boost to the power a warframe can achieve and when locking something behind the Nightwave system that gives such an effect on game play limits the players that can get it. this should not be a thing but it is and nobody seems to have a care in the world for it. The reactions from people i get are that umbra forma was a waste of a thing and that it makes no difference but in all honesty they seem not to realize how much of an effect it has and by locking it behind such a system leads to a hard division between players that really shouldn't be there

I really hope that someone that has the power to change this actually understands what i mean and that the item be handed to us, this shouldn't be happening but it is and its such a disgrace i have been playing for so many years on PC and Xbox seeing this happen is a shame and being a "cash whale" kinda player i would have expected my voice to at least be herd but it seems to just continue to fall on def ears

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I agree taking into consideration, that there are different kinds of players, casual, new, returning, limited play times, players who can only play on the weekends, etc. It can make getting this item specifically extremely difficult. You also have to take into consideration of when to bother doing the event, because players who start late into the event late are very unlikely to get anything worth while and having it reset and a wait period till the next event and whatever that grind will entail as well... This may take months to earn. Do we the players now have to plan when to play Warframe to get the best out of it?

One argument would be

Well this is only for veterans and to reward people's hard work. I would say that's fine, but this is a limited time event were you're earnings and progression are reset at the end of it. Meaning there will be many players who are left in the dust not due to skill, merit. etc. but due to allocated time put into the game. Solution, don't have it reset. I imagine the next event will be modeled similarly. So why not just model this around the tribute system of getting rewards every tier and make it so you get an umbra mod every 25th tier or something?

Not to mention all the other items like aura mods, nitain, reactors, catalyst etc. That we don't reasonably have access to anymore.... That I've discussed in a previous threads.

 

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6 hours ago, (XB1)XArch AngelX86 said:

major progression/power creep items like the umbra forma

6 hours ago, (XB1)XArch AngelX86 said:

locking something behind the Nightwave system that gives such an effect on game play

6 hours ago, (XB1)XArch AngelX86 said:

being a "cash whale" kinda player i would have expected my voice to at least be herd

Umbra Forma, the single one available as of yet, doesn't provide even remotely the level of power creep you think it does or have anywhere near a huge impact on the game.

Not now, not before, not ever will your spending money on the game ever make your input more valuable than any other player.

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5 hours ago, LoadedAK47 said:

I agree taking into consideration, that there are different kinds of players, casual, new, returning, limited play times, players who can only play on the weekends, etc. It can make getting this item specifically extremely difficult. You also have to take into consideration of when to bother doing the event, because players who start late into the event late are very unlikely to get anything worth while and having it reset and a wait period till the next event and whatever that grind will entail as well... This may take months to earn. Do we the players now have to plan when to play Warframe to get the best out of it?

One argument would be

Well this is only for veterans and to reward people's hard work. I would say that's fine, but this is a limited time event were you're earnings and progression are reset at the end of it. Meaning there will be many players who are left in the dust not due to skill, merit. etc. but due to allocated time put into the game. Solution, don't have it reset. I imagine the next event will be modeled similarly. So why not just model this around the tribute system of getting rewards every tier and make it so you get an umbra mod every 25th tier or something?

Not to mention all the other items like aura mods, nitain, reactors, catalyst etc. That we don't reasonably have access to anymore.... That I've discussed in a previous threads.

 

I think in all honesty you put it better than me and the exact problem with the system, I use to be one of those no life hardcore players that has all the time in the world but now I have grown up I have a life n barely get to play a single day a week sometimes I even miss weeks on end and being forced to miss out on such a thing is disheartening but they won't change the system and they won't give us it all coz even though it was a "test" of the system they want to keep that division between players with the items and players without

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17 hours ago, peterc3 said:

Umbra Forma, the single one available as of yet, doesn't provide even remotely the level of power creep you think it does or have anywhere near a huge impact on the game. 

I believe XArch meant it as an eventuality, as making obtaining the umbra forma only available in the night wave system and whatever the next one is.

16 hours ago, (XB1)XArch AngelX86 said:

I use to be one of those no life hardcore players that has all the time in the world but now I have grown up I have a life n barely get to play a single day a week sometimes I even miss weeks on end and being forced to miss out on such a thing is disheartening

I feel you, I have 1.3k hrs in this game and use to play all the time, now I can barely put a few hrs a week. I did manage to get the Umbra Forma tho. But before Night wave I was just logging in and logging out most of the time. Now with its removal and the feeling of the burn I a hven't really logged in. It is disheartening....

16 hours ago, (XB1)XArch AngelX86 said:

but they won't change the system and they won't give us it all coz even though it was a "test" of the system they want to keep that division between players with the items and players without

This is unfortunately for us, likely going to happen. IMO, I believe switching to a merit system for some of these items would be ideal. Most of us veterans have the gear to complete almost anything, so why force us into the repetition/grind that we may or may not have the time for? Beat certain bosses with all the void keys equipped, Speed runs, survival duration, combination of these and more. And reward us accordingly. They have a lot of stuff in the loot tables, it can be anything from rare mods to frame/weapon parts. I don't see the harm. If anything it'll incentivize people to actually be good at the game, while maintaining that clear divide between new and veteran players.

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20 minutes ago, LoadedAK47 said:

I believe XArch meant it as an eventuality, as making obtaining the umbra forma only available in the night wave system and whatever the next one is.

Point still stands. It is a niche Forma for a set of mods that aren't necessary for the highest level of content in the game. The assumption is also that it stays as the capstone reward, an assumption that cannot be supported by a single season of the mode.

23 minutes ago, LoadedAK47 said:

IMO, I believe switching to a merit system for some of these items would be ideal. Most of us veterans have the gear to complete almost anything, so why force us into the repetition/grind that we may or may not have the time for? Beat certain bosses with all the void keys equipped, Speed runs, survival duration, combination of these and more. And reward us accordingly.

I, a not that great player, can do these things with my eyes closed. The rewards, from an effort standpoint, should be 0 for those achievements.

25 minutes ago, LoadedAK47 said:

so why force us into the repetition/grind that we may or may not have the time for?

Why is it DE's issue that you might not have time for it?

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48 minutes ago, peterc3 said:

Point still stands. It is a niche Forma for a set of mods that aren't necessary for the highest level of content in the game. The assumption is also that it stays as the capstone reward, an assumption that cannot be supported by a single season of the mode.

Not necessary, but pretty damn useful. And, as of right now it is the cap stone reward. I believe thye did speak of releasing more umbra mods, so this will make umbra forma more necessary in the future. As in terms of assumptions, fair, but I believe DE doesn't plan to deviate from their current system to much. So I do find the Nightwave to be a proper foundation for my current assumption.

53 minutes ago, peterc3 said:

I, a not that great player, can do these things with my eyes closed. The rewards, from an effort standpoint, should be 0 for those achievements.

It was an example, nothing more. I'm sure you can list all sorts of stuff that would be challenging that you can think of and get a reward for. As of right now there really isn't any incentive to do any high level play. So why shoot down the idea if it may or may not be easy for you? DE has all the data/metrics of the game. I'm sure they can create challenges based around highest fail rates.

55 minutes ago, peterc3 said:

Why is it DE's issue that you might not have time for it?

Let me elaborate on my point, not many people like doing the same thing over and over again. This is what makes the grind in Warframe tedious not to mention the vast amount of grindy content in the game. For us veterans we've experience most if not all the content in the game. So there is no challenge making doing the same task over and over again mundane. In other words I don't feel incentivized to put in the hours into the game, which is what DE wants. I know of around 10 people personally who feel the same. Not much, but I'm the vocal minority of a group and I wouldn't be surprised if there are more who feel the same. IMO, seeing the concurrent players rise with content releases and drop afterwards, tells me that new content is great for the new experience, but once experienced it is business as usual, IMO of course. Again DE has the data, so they can definitely figure out more than I can. In sort DE should welcome all player types. But this is off topic. I'm also not advocating casualization or dumbing down of the game, I'm offering a happy middle ground of a merit system were earnings are determined by actual skill and not the amount of hrs put in, although that can be a merit within itself.

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10 hours ago, LoadedAK47 said:

I believe XArch meant it as an eventuality, as making obtaining the umbra forma only available in the night wave system and whatever the next one is.

I feel you, I have 1.3k hrs in this game and use to play all the time, now I can barely put a few hrs a week. I did manage to get the Umbra Forma tho. But before Night wave I was just logging in and logging out most of the time. Now with its removal and the feeling of the burn I a hven't really logged in. It is disheartening....

This is unfortunately for us, likely going to happen. IMO, I believe switching to a merit system for some of these items would be ideal. Most of us veterans have the gear to complete almost anything, so why force us into the repetition/grind that we may or may not have the time for? Beat certain bosses with all the void keys equipped, Speed runs, survival duration, combination of these and more. And reward us accordingly. They have a lot of stuff in the loot tables, it can be anything from rare mods to frame/weapon parts. I don't see the harm. If anything it'll incentivize people to actually be good at the game, while maintaining that clear divide between new and veteran players.

I guess maybe there should be a division due to how much work is put in but when locking items behind the timed grind wall and not allowing people to catch up and get those items at a later date leaves a hard division not a soft division that allows players to catch up n match them, it needs to change n this is why I really feel they should just give us the items as they said it was a test of the system not leave this gap of missed out opertunity, it's not like the tempo royal and those kinda item things those are trade able n switch hands and move around n there's so many of it and by locking something like the umbra forma like this is just depressing

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Now that Nightwave is gone and an new update has come, i found out that other than ghoul bounties and grinding at plato lua is the only way to get nitain extract. 

Normally, i would be fine with this as i would simply grind BUT i have been grinding for 3 days and i only gotten one nitain extract. With a 2 percent chance of getting it from every 3 cache found is kinda harsh.

Some ideas:

Make it so that every cache has a 2 percent chance of dropping it or make it so the first cache has a 2% chance of dropping, second cache 3% chance of dropping and third cache with a 4% of dropping.

Creating a simple system with the new update of gas city to get nitain(this would be the hardest for developers)

Make it so that people can buy bundles of 5-10 of nitain extract for 10-30 platinum in the market.

Moral of the story is that nitain is too difficult to find i only gotten one from grinding for 2-3 days we need a new way of getting it or balancing the drop rate

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You have a weird timing to complain about this, with a gift of the Lotus for 10 Nitain currently up and a twitch drop for nitain just yesterday.

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There is a Gift of Lotus alert which gives 10 Nitains atm also new Nightwave season will drop in a few weeks.

Not against to make them available on more locations tho.

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They want to make it a rare resource but overdid it...drop rate for finding all 3 caches should be at least 50% IMO (right now it's 0%....hmm I mean 1~2%) .Caches are already SO annoying find and anti-fun.

Older players probably have tons of Nitain since they got everything already built, and they don't need resources for anything, but for more casual / newer players this thing is just cancer.

I'm honestly surprised that DE did nothing about it in the last few updates, I wonder how many players left the game when they found out this invisible grind wall of Sabotage caches.

It sucks when you got a blueprint and can't build it, because of a resource that's next to impossible to obtain.

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I've said it before, I'll say it again - take Nitain out of Nightwave altogether and make it a regular rare resource. The whole reason it was added was to make people play Alerts which no longer exist. Nightwave itself is pretty potent at making people feel strong-armed into playing it without also gating a valuable resource. Tie it to an existing mission type, like a higher chance for drops off caches as others have said. You could even leave it in Nightwave as an option, just give it another reliable source. This incentive mechanic has lost its reason to exist.

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Due to the power of the item, it shouldnt BE available to casual players. The sweaty player gets more overpowered than he already is, and that is okay. We do have enough power available in different forms in this game, be it rivens, 6 forma weapons or just OP meta equipment.

Yes, some lesser used builds would become playable with the umbra forma as well, but most of the time, people would use it on the best meta frame to push it over the limits even more. Which is a massive headache for balancing.

Due to that fact, DE wanted to make sure exactly what you said would happen: Only those people that have invested an unhealthy amount of their lives into this game will get an item that rewards them for their dedication. It was meant as a plus-effect for those gamers. It wasnt intended as a punishment for the others. Big whoops for not knowing your community, DE...

All in all though, I think the next forma we get should be given out for mastery rank 30 players, as a welcoming gift for passing that threshold. And before that, no more of that stuff. It is quite dangerous if you get the item, and it is (as this thread demonstrates) equally dangerous if you dont get it. And for an item to cause THAT kind of havoc even if it isnt there, is just an unhealthy thing.

The mastery 30 thing should seem reasonable to most players, since eventually, everybody that sticks to the game and builds and levels stuff will obtain it. Also finally a real reason to go higher in mastery, right?

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8 hours ago, random__noob said:

Due to the power of the item, it shouldnt BE available to casual players. The sweaty player gets more overpowered than he already is, and that is okay. We do have enough power available in different forms in this game, be it rivens, 6 forma weapons or just OP meta equipment.

Yes, some lesser used builds would become playable with the umbra forma as well, but most of the time, people would use it on the best meta frame to push it over the limits even more. Which is a massive headache for balancing.

Due to that fact, DE wanted to make sure exactly what you said would happen: Only those people that have invested an unhealthy amount of their lives into this game will get an item that rewards them for their dedication. It was meant as a plus-effect for those gamers. It wasnt intended as a punishment for the others. Big whoops for not knowing your community, DE...

All in all though, I think the next forma we get should be given out for mastery rank 30 players, as a welcoming gift for passing that threshold. And before that, no more of that stuff. It is quite dangerous if you get the item, and it is (as this thread demonstrates) equally dangerous if you dont get it. And for an item to cause THAT kind of havoc even if it isnt there, is just an unhealthy thing.

The mastery 30 thing should seem reasonable to most players, since eventually, everybody that sticks to the game and builds and levels stuff will obtain it. Also finally a real reason to go higher in mastery, right?

There's still the fact new players will never experience it leaving a hard division they will never ever reach items that have such a impact being completely lost to time yes it should be hard to get but not locked away time gated #*!%ing bullS#&$ grind, everyone needs to be able to get it if they put the effort in at any time not the tome gate 1 off thing that leaves the OMG look at me I'm super special coz I got the umbra forms shame u won't ever have as many as me kinda S#&$, this is why I say it should just be given to the people that missed out fix the #*!%ing system so people can go brain dead grinding for the next one and be done with it.

Yes the division should exist but all players should be able to reach being sweat lord and timegating something like umbra forms leaves a hard division stopping a lot of people from even getting it ever and if they keep it up they will understand how deeply they #*!%ed up and it will be too late to change it

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Look, you cant force DE to do the things you want them to with THEIR intelectual property. I get it you are angry. Many people are.

Cant make the descisions for them though. Time gating is crap, yes, but it is not NEW here. It just did hurt a lot more this time around than it usually does. Special rewards for special events have always been a thing. Every event had a special reward you could get, some more useful than others. Some people dont have all the dual stat mods, since some of them are a pain to farm for (and originally, there just WAS no way to get them if you missed out on the event. Imagine a world where THAT is true... So at least we know DE is willing to give us second chances).

Its just that this time, we jumped through a LOT more hoops over a MUCH longer period of time. And for an item that we have no info if or when or how we can try to get it again, making us feel pressured to invest the 40 hours of mostly mind-numbing grind for it.

Maybe umbra forma will just be replacing the legendary core in the sorties, making it hard but not impossible to get. And that way making it available in the market as well. And people wont feel so freakishly bad. But maybe we have to grind our butts off over 10 weeks again to rank up that high (and I am certainly thinking a lot harder about that if it should come to this. Other games also have beautiful incentives to play them...).

Going as far as stating "give it to everybody that missed out on it" is just childish.

 

So what does that leave me to say in this post? You are logically wrong in assuming you can force anybody to do what you want with the things you dont own (and they do own the game, its their so called job), and that aside you provided no feedback that hasnt been given in the over 100 pages worth of feedback in the dedicated official feedback topic.

Why the HECK do you think your opinion is more important than that of all the other gamers that are in outrage?
What makes you special, or this thread relevant?

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Yes, let us buy other forma variants in the market instead and use nightwave for, for me, uninteresting cosmetics and gimmicks.. so I don't have to do this boring mess again..

Yes please.

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I've been thinking about it for awhile, about the backlash for Nightwave and why people can't seem to deal with getting all the rewards for the season. I've heard all the stories about FOMO and burnout, and I think the reason why Nightwave was not very well received by some of the community was because of the intense gating.

Want the rewards? Well you have to do this very specific thing and after you're done you have to wait for a week to do it all again. The problem is not about doing a specific thing, because that is the basis for any significant reward. It's about doing many different specific things. And you can't rely on one specific thing to net you all the standing you need, because once you're done with one act you have to do a different act to get more standing.

For example, if I really needed orokin cells, I'd go to Helene on Saturn to level some mastery fodder or look for a [spare parts] group. There are multiple ways to get orokin cells, and doing only one of them doesn't mean I get less. I don't get capped for running Helene over and over again.

Scaling the standing gain by difficulty was not well received either. People talked about discrimination and elitism, as well as the lack of avenues for new players to obtain rewards compared to old alerts.

So Mr Cepa, how 2 noightweve?

Make a set of repeatable challenges every week. Each challenge should award the same amount of standing and even better, should take similar times to complete and should be similar in difficulty. This allows for variety and doesn't disadvantage a player for choosing another challenge. To prevent players from going 0 to 30 in a day we can cap the amount of standing earnable for a week, kind of like how we do for syndicates.

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Nightwave felt like a 9-5 job. It gave you a workload made up of tasks you probably wouldn't like, a deadline by the end of the week, and an overall project deadline coming in 10 weeks. And all this time, you're facing the looming threat of falling so far behind that you're never going to see the end of it. Sure, they extended Nightwave by what? 4-5 weeks? That let a substantial amount of people catch up, but it didn't stop Nightwave feeling like work up to that point. It really was a heavy-handed, unpleasant way to create engagement, and it caused a lot of people - myself included - to resent our time spent in the game but equally feel pressured into playing those challenges anyway.

I remain convinced that the correct approach would have been to simply offer two or three times the challenges with a Weekly Cap on Nightwave Standing, so that players could stick to just the challenges they like without the risk of them burning through the entire progression tree in a few days.

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I remember when I started playing about a year or so ago there was a mechanic in the game where if you did a certain action a certain amount of affinity e.g. hack a console or make 30 kills etc if this was applied to the nightwave in addition to the standard mission but with a hard cap at a reasonable level it can help. By reasonable I mean high enough that you get something back for your effort but not so high that you do get it all in one day.

It could also work as a pseudo tutorial letting people now of certain mechanics in game. For example for most sabotage missions people tend to just blast through the front door to the coolant room but there generally tends to be a secondary route to it for most. It's similar with spy missions as well. Another example would be the use of gear wheel equipment like specters and air support charges and how they have been effectively phased out due to the power creep and the general speed of play.

That's just my thoughts on it though.

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40 minutes ago, Cephalycion said:

Make a set of repeatable challenges every week. Each challenge should award the same amount of standing and even better, should take similar times to complete and should be similar in difficulty

I agree that this would have been a significant improvement. I hated every mission I did for Nightwave. It made me hate playing the game (I stopped Nightwave when I hit rank 30). I would have no issues with giving us maybe 30 challenges for a week, and saying do whatever 15 you want (points cap here). If the missions themselves were worthwhile it would have been fine. But “help Clem”? The mission takes 10 minutes for trash I won’t ever use. Why would I enjoy doing it? Just an example, it applies to most of the ‘do X’ challenges.

 

The other issue that made me dislike it were the rewards. Why spend all this time and effort for 25 rewards you do not want? The lack of Wolf Cred availability did not help either. *yes, I know you could get lots after hitting rank 30. Any thoughts on how to change this around to improve it? I would like choices of items per level (determined by DE) AND Wolf Creds (equivalent). If you don’t want the Reactor, you could take a catalyst or forma instead for example.

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Personally didn't mind doing a few chores once in a while and imo the reason players got burnt out was because there was no end date for Nightwave at the time so everyone was panic grinding to not miss out on the forma. 

Imo what would make Nightwave desirable is to make a bunch of very difficult yet possible objectives and reward players with unique weapons and gear for completing them instead of the usual stuff we already have in abundance, so many other games have these things known as exotics but all Warframe has are recolours of existing stuff like vandals and wraiths and such, gimme a damn Ace of spades already :(

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Not really on the topic but...

I wonder why not have just the stories be seasonal instead, make the alert-shop perma but with only the essentials (nitian etc) during down time and keep the challenges going. Also It seems much more logical to reset creds at the START of a new season than the end of one... especially if your purpose for resetting is simply to give players a reason to come back and keep playing.

last week's devstream was the last one until tennocon, even if they have it as twitch drop that's absurd, people shouldn't have to go on twitch to progress in-game.

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21 hours ago, (XB1)Cubic Clem said:

Yes, let us buy other forma variants in the market instead and use nightwave for, for me, uninteresting cosmetics and gimmicks.. so I don't have to do this boring mess again..

Yes please.

Are you seriously begging for a pay to win system? I personally do not approve...

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