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(NSW)FlameDivinity

Controversial Mastery Rank Feedback

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I'm going to make this short since I'm busy right now, but here's a post I found on a necro'd Steam page: Courtesy of @jonnin

MR epeening won't improve the quality of players or accomplish anything. All MR means is that someone has used more items. 
-- you can have a fairly high MR from leeching. 
-- you can have a farily high MR without having maxed out mods. 
-- you can have a fairly high MR without mastering any frame or weapon or build. 

conversely you can be MR 7 or so and be a grand master at your one and only setup and be a huge asset to a team. MR is meaningless.

Some of the higher level MR ensure that the player can do super mario spaz moves while shooting. But it is unlikley they will make having THAT high a MR a requirement -- it would have to be > 15 to really start to weed out anyone. And there again, someone rank 7 or so who is really good but did not care to level a ton of junk items is punished while some leech who managed to do the tests gets to go. Its a flawed concept across the board. 

A better test would be to count the total # of points from mods on the gear being used for the mission combined with an on-paper DPS check on the weapons. That would ensure the player is capable of the mission.

Was looking up how to join sorties, found out it is after my next quest (TWW, which looks really fun, I really enjoyed the epic Second Dream quest). But I came across this along the way. Such a good point I've heard a few times before. The Underlined and Bolded statements are very relevant to me and many, many other players, and we feel a bit punished when wanting to build a very high MR weapon though we're currently a lower MR. We don't want to grind weapons and frames just for EXP, We want to enjoy what we're using and enjoy the game. I have my Orthos Prime and Broken War, which I love using both, and I don't want to use anything else. Well, that's Melee Mastery EXP gone because I have 2 melee's that I enjoy and want to use them, again, because I enjoy using them. I have Nezha, which I love far more than any other frame and slightly more than Volt, so I only truly enjoy using them both. I level up frames and hunt for them from time to time, but that is not my ideal way of having fun, and burns me out since I have a busy life, and many grinds are unreasonable and irrationally designed. Players shouldn't be punished for enjoying a game. Players shouldn't have to go out of their way and grind endlessly to be able to access other items when they are having fun not doing so. I understand the entire system of Mastery, and it's like you're mastering all the weapons and frames and that is very awesome. I understand scaling and power mechanics. I'm not asking for a change to this. But what I do want is to spread awareness that this hinders many players' play styles and is not fun for much of the fanbase. Thanks for reading this peeps.

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1 hour ago, (NSW)FlameDivinity said:

A better test would be to count the total # of points from mods on the gear being used for the mission combined with an on-paper DPS check on the weapons. That would ensure the player is capable of the mission.

Used to have the first part, it sucked.

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I do wish MR tests were more challenging myself, but the problem is that every *slightly* difficult challenge is always met by complaints.

There is a general revulsion to anything in the game that makes a player have to work to stay alive and accomplish the mission.  There's a reason frames like Rhino, Inaros and Mesa are so popular.

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No Mastery rank is not a good indicator of player skill. But do you know what else isn't? Player level in pretty much every MMO out there.

Mastery does serve a purpose. That purpose is to encourage you to break out of your bubble and try different things. Are some of these things stuff you don't care for? Absolutely. But who knows, you may find a weapon that really surprises you with how much you like it. You may find a weapon with a mechanic you can use in a way you didn't expect.

I absolutely have a build I typically run with that doesn't change much. I've used that build basically since I started the game. Vectis and Atterax are my go-tos because they feel really satisfying to use for me. But even so, I've found weapons in MR fodder that I've really enjoyed experimenting with even if I don't use them regularly. Nezha/Rhino may be my main frame, but Titania is great fun soaring through spy missions and I never would have given her a shot if I didn't have to rank her for mastery.

38 minutes ago, (PS4)BenHeisennberg said:

I do wish MR tests were more challenging myself, but the problem is that every *slightly* difficult challenge is always met by complaints.

There is a general revulsion to anything in the game that makes a player have to work to stay alive and accomplish the mission.  There's a reason frames like Rhino, Inaros and Mesa are so popular.

I mean, Rhino is popular with me because knockdown and other things that remove agency as a player are annoying. It's not so much that they make the game difficult, just that it's annoying that movement is constantly interrupted in a game that's all about movement and flowing combat.

By all means make things harder. I'd just prefer you make things harder in a way that isn't just taking away player agency.

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21 hours ago, (NSW)FlameDivinity said:

But what I do want is to spread awareness that this hinders many players' play styles and is not fun for much of the fanbase. Thanks for reading this peeps.

You can bypass the MR requirements on weapons and frames. It's usually not a great idea. Because there will be aspects that you won't be able to make use of. 

Offhand I'd say that 5 is the really important one. Others might say differently. Many people would say that around the mid teens is as far as it goes, and after that it's really just bragging rights. Others would insist that those people don't know what they are doing and ignore them, because they have lower mastery ranks. 

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On 2019-05-23 at 2:06 PM, (NSW)Sniperfox47 said:

I never would have given her a shot if I didn't have to rank her for mastery.

Agreed.

There are things I wouldn't have enjoyed if mastery didn't require them.

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On 2019-05-24 at 9:06 AM, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

You can bypass the MR requirements on weapons and frames. It's usually not a great idea. Because there will be aspects that you won't be able to make use of. 

Offhand I'd say that 5 is the really important one. Others might say differently. Many people would say that around the mid teens is as far as it goes, and after that it's really just bragging rights. Others would insist that those people don't know what they are doing and ignore them, because they have lower mastery ranks. 

I'm aiming for 14, as I'm pretty sure that allows me the ability to craft every weapon in the game. I have a little less than 11k to go until MR9. Planning on getting to MR10 for the time being. I want the Arca Plasmor, Amprex, Redeemer Prime, and Destreza Prime, among many others.

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17 hours ago, (NSW)FlameDivinity said:

I'm aiming for 14, as I'm pretty sure that allows me the ability to craft every weapon in the game. I have a little less than 11k to go until MR9. Planning on getting to MR10 for the time being. I want the Arca Plasmor, Amprex, Redeemer Prime, and Destreza Prime, among many others.

I was aiming for the same level until i got a riven that say MR16 so now i aim for MR16.

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To be a typical salty guy:

If all the MR 25++ players could do it (I used to have an 8 - 6 job and I raised my MR to 25 while doing the job, I got 26 after), there is nothing stopping you from doing it. I like only my Destreza Prime and whatever has infinite ammo (a very small selection of guns), but I have put in effort to level everything.

There are certain people who can game the system, yes, but it would be impossible to manage to leech through the whole game to some extreme MR and somehow still pass all the mastery tests without gaining at least a minimum knowledge on how to play, unless one is getting boosted by a friend.

It would be pretty unfair to just dismantle/distort the MR system to make newer players happier.

5 minutes ago, (PS4)haphazardlynamed said:

Huh? do people use MR ingame for epeenining? I haven't noticed.

Actually most do not.

Because Warframe is not some huge achievement to epeen about in the first place.

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4 hours ago, (PS4)haphazardlynamed said:

Huh? do people use MR ingame for epeenining? I haven't noticed.

I usually just judge based on how awesome someone's cosmetics are.

I mostly don't notice. 

Heck, I don't think people even notice the cosmetics all that much. 

If someone is having issues and/or massively underperforming, I might glance at the MR just to see if they're extraordinarily low (frequently are). Now you know why. It excuses some things. 

I don't go out of my way to rank up MR. I play with what looks interesting and ignore what doesn't. The MR trickles in on its own. I usually pick up about 2-3 ranks a year, mostly from the PAs. 

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At MR 16 I told myself to not care about ranking up anymore. Eventually I got bored and ranked up anyway. Now I realize that high MR really has a great benefit: high standing cap. Everytime a new syndicate get's released I am glad to be high MR.

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11 hours ago, (PS4)haphazardlynamed said:

Huh? do people use MR ingame for epeenining? I haven't noticed.

 

I usually just judge based on how awesome someone's cosmetics are.

 

We have here a man of culture.

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11 hours ago, Datam4ss said:

To be a typical salty guy:

If all the MR 25++ players could do it (I used to have an 8 - 6 job and I raised my MR to 25 while doing the job, I got 26 after), there is nothing stopping you from doing it. I like only my Destreza Prime and whatever has infinite ammo (a very small selection of guns), but I have put in effort to level everything.

There are certain people who can game the system, yes, but it would be impossible to manage to leech through the whole game to some extreme MR and somehow still pass all the mastery tests without gaining at least a minimum knowledge on how to play, unless one is getting boosted by a friend.

It would be pretty unfair to just dismantle/distort the MR system to make newer players happier.

Actually most do not.

Because Warframe is not some huge achievement to epeen about in the first place.

Hey I'm not salty at all, so don't bring your negativity into my thread. I was just starting a controversial topic. I'm more than fine leveling up myself, and I personally think Mastery adds longevity to the game and goals to aim for. I was just speaking in a few things I read from a decent chunk of players and I can definitely understand those feelings.

Hence, "Controversial." You're welcome.

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On 2019-06-22 at 8:17 PM, (NSW)FlameDivinity said:

don't bring your negativity into my thread. I was just starting a controversial topic.

New to feedback forums, yes?  Don't answer that.

On 2019-05-23 at 12:55 PM, (NSW)FlameDivinity said:

MR epeening

You know, having my "fair share" of hours in-game, including playing with friends, mostly randoms, and watching region/guild chats I think I can say I've never seen anyone refer to people of lower MR in a demeaning manner in any way that was not jokingly.  I have seen a few people make claims of it being a common occurrence, but can't say I've witnessed it.  That isn't to say "I haven't seen X, therefore it doesn't happen", but I do have to doubt how widespread of a phenomenon this idea really is given that experience.

On 2019-05-23 at 12:55 PM, (NSW)FlameDivinity said:

But it is unlikley they will make having THAT high a MR a requirement -- it would have to be > 15 to really start to weed out anyone

Requirement for?... I feel like this is missing context in relation to that steam thread you mention in the OP

On 2019-05-23 at 12:55 PM, (NSW)FlameDivinity said:

A better test would be to count the total # of points from mods on the gear being used for the mission combined with an on-paper DPS check on the weapons. That would ensure the player is capable of the mission.

There is point values assigned to a load of mods in the game, it's called the conclave rating I believe.  You can see it at work if you use the auto-assign mods feature on some of your equipment.  It's awful, and given experience with "automated builds" in this game and many other mmos/rpgs, I have no positive expectation DE would ever implement this feature and not have it either A) Require what is actually an awful mod loadout, or only offers 'raw' dps with no consideration for status and enemy varieties or other utilities or B) Have such low expectations that it would be even more meaningless than MR, which at least implies you've entered a match with a variety of characters/weapons.

On 2019-05-23 at 12:55 PM, (NSW)FlameDivinity said:

We don't want to grind weapons and frames just for EXP, We want to enjoy what we're using and enjoy the game.

To be quite frank, that is simply one of the game's monetization methods.  Sure, someone could have a writeup about how 'progressing' through the gear benefits the game, but let's be honest the MR requirements are kinda arbitrary and don't always equate to a piece of gear being more powerful.  What's really going on here is you're bumping into the "grind or pay to skip" part of the game.  Although, in the context of this game, the 'grind' is at least playing with a variety of gear instead of mindlessly mobbing some zombies or whatever, so that's nice. It's far from being on the manipulative end of f2p monetization, part of what gives Warframe its generally positive reputation.  If you look, you'll find instances of outrage towards the game in the past relating to grinds that were seen as going-too-far, and generally an updated more lenient grind follows in an update.

Additionally, the grind to mr 16 (beyond which is just boosts to your max standing and such) can be completed with currently-available prime equipment and market/dojo purchasable gear handily, removing the additional layer of grind that is random-drop blueprints(frames not-withstanding, most of which are quite quick farms regardless).  If your only desire is access to equipment, well... it's been done, by people with jobs and lives outside of playing Warframe.  To be frank one more time, it's an f2p MMO, not a upfront-cost sandbox, there's going to be a little grind~

On 2019-05-23 at 12:55 PM, (NSW)FlameDivinity said:

I'm not asking for a change to this. But what I do want is to spread awareness that this hinders many players' play styles and is not fun for much of the fanbase. Thanks for reading this peeps.

Well, you are in the feedback section, not the... spread awareness(?) section.  This note at the tail-end doesn't really change the fact that people are going to interpret your post as a suggestion that DE replace the MR system with something else.  Surely you are well-meaning, but this final thought of yours and the overall message sent makes this seem more like a venting of frustration than feedback. 

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I am MR10 and I still have no idea what the heck I am doing, it's all because I was told "using every weapon/warframe builds your MR, your MR is a getekeeper to new gear" so i got boosters and built/used everything I could while learning almost nothing about the game.  I agree, MR is just how long you've played/used things.

Hell, I can usually get 20 ranks on an unranked item in 20 rounds of a void fissure.

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On 2019-05-23 at 10:55 AM, (NSW)FlameDivinity said:

A better test would be to count the total # of points from mods on the gear being used for the mission combined with an on-paper DPS check on the weapons. That would ensure the player is capable of the mission.

DE tried this, failed horribly because of a few basic things:
A mod that is good on one thing isn't necessarily good in another.
For example, which is better: A 90% damage mod, or a 60% damage, 60% status?  Or does it depend on the weapon you are putting it into.  Same thing with critical mods.  And how do you even attempt to value riven mods?
You can also see the same thing with warframe mods.  What purpose is a shield mod on Inaros, what about Vigor?  And conversely, what use is a health mod on Hildryn?

How do you assign points to mods knowing that they are heavily build specific if it'll be good or not...and that's before taking into account augments.

In the old Conclave Rating (CR) system I could build a nice and low point Zephyr build that could go an hour solo in survivals...or I could make a high point build that struggled past 15 minutes.
Assigning points to mods for a gear score simply doesn't work in a game like Warframe.

Second issue to this though is differing loadouts.
Does the points include companions/sentinels?  What about sentinels that don't attack?
What happens to your point value if you say bring only a Melee weapon?  Or only a primary?  Or only a secondary?
How about frames with exalted weaponry?  How does that calculate into their gear-score?

There are way too many corner cases for something like this to be applied across the board.

On 2019-05-23 at 10:55 AM, (NSW)FlameDivinity said:

I understand the entire system of Mastery

Then you must understand that one of the purposes of mastery is to get players to try everything, because who's to say that you wont like weapon X over there if you've never tried it before?

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MR was proven to be only an e-peen measurer for the people that had little to no self-awareness, and probably less intelligence, back when MR20 was unlocked.

A bunch of players, myself included, started fresh accounts and saw how long it took a player who didn't put any money into the game would take to get to get to functional max MR (at the time, given the exclusive Event content and the start of the Vaulting process, that was MR 18). The fastest player to get there got there in 19 days. Literally one day per MR with allowance of one day for the overlaps in his schedule.

The byword has always been 'MR means nothing until it has a game function' (Or just 'MR means nothing until it does') for years now.

If you see anyone trying to use their MR to say they're better than you, then walk away, they're just another entitled gatekeeper and there's so many players online these days that you can find another group in seconds.

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On 2019-05-23 at 6:55 AM, (NSW)FlameDivinity said:

I'm going to make this short since I'm busy right now, but here's a post I found on a necro'd Steam page: Courtesy of @jonnin

MR epeening won't improve the quality of players or accomplish anything. All MR means is that someone has used more items. 
-- you can have a fairly high MR from leeching. 
-- you can have a farily high MR without having maxed out mods. 
-- you can have a fairly high MR without mastering any frame or weapon or build. 

conversely you can be MR 7 or so and be a grand master at your one and only setup and be a huge asset to a team. MR is meaningless.

Some of the higher level MR ensure that the player can do super mario spaz moves while shooting. But it is unlikley they will make having THAT high a MR a requirement -- it would have to be > 15 to really start to weed out anyone. And there again, someone rank 7 or so who is really good but did not care to level a ton of junk items is punished while some leech who managed to do the tests gets to go. Its a flawed concept across the board. 

A better test would be to count the total # of points from mods on the gear being used for the mission combined with an on-paper DPS check on the weapons. That would ensure the player is capable of the mission.

Was looking up how to join sorties, found out it is after my next quest (TWW, which looks really fun, I really enjoyed the epic Second Dream quest). But I came across this along the way. Such a good point I've heard a few times before. The Underlined and Bolded statements are very relevant to me and many, many other players, and we feel a bit punished when wanting to build a very high MR weapon though we're currently a lower MR. We don't want to grind weapons and frames just for EXP, We want to enjoy what we're using and enjoy the game. I have my Orthos Prime and Broken War, which I love using both, and I don't want to use anything else. Well, that's Melee Mastery EXP gone because I have 2 melee's that I enjoy and want to use them, again, because I enjoy using them. I have Nezha, which I love far more than any other frame and slightly more than Volt, so I only truly enjoy using them both. I level up frames and hunt for them from time to time, but that is not my ideal way of having fun, and burns me out since I have a busy life, and many grinds are unreasonable and irrationally designed. Players shouldn't be punished for enjoying a game. Players shouldn't have to go out of their way and grind endlessly to be able to access other items when they are having fun not doing so. I understand the entire system of Mastery, and it's like you're mastering all the weapons and frames and that is very awesome. I understand scaling and power mechanics. I'm not asking for a change to this. But what I do want is to spread awareness that this hinders many players' play styles and is not fun for much of the fanbase. Thanks for reading this peeps.

MR is 'meaningless' in the sense that it isn't an indicator of player skill, yes. But not all indicators in the game have to be indicators of skill. MR exists as an explicit incentive to move you out of your comfort zone and try new weapons and equipment, because the core gameplay loop of Warframe is acquiring Warframes and weapons.

And DE actually recognizes this-you might note that the Mastery requirements for quests and missions are actually pretty low, because the entire point is a 'you should have tried this much of the game's equipment to proceed' counter, rather than a tool to weed out players who 'aren't skilled enough.' I think this is literally just PvP sweat/raid culture coming home to roost, where people insist that the progress number must also be a guide to 'skill' or something and is worthless if it isn't. Mastery Rank is a guide to roughly how far you've progressed through the game, and if you're playing the game normally with pretty minimal care given to the whole thing, you'll still progress in it pretty naturally even if you tend to main a small handful of weapons and Warframes.

The only thing it discourages is refusing to ever try any other weapons or Warframes, which I think is fair given that Reactors/Catalysts are one of the ways DE makes its money and therefore DE has a significant financial incentive to discourage players getting into that sort of rut. The fact that this discouragement is also better for the players (because it pushes them into trying new things) is icing on the cake.

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1 hour ago, MJ12 said:

MR is 'meaningless' in the sense that it isn't an indicator of player skill, yes. But not all indicators in the game have to be indicators of skill. MR exists as an explicit incentive to move you out of your comfort zone and try new weapons and equipment, because the core gameplay loop of Warframe is acquiring Warframes and weapons.

And DE actually recognizes this-you might note that the Mastery requirements for quests and missions are actually pretty low, because the entire point is a 'you should have tried this much of the game's equipment to proceed' counter, rather than a tool to weed out players who 'aren't skilled enough.' I think this is literally just PvP sweat/raid culture coming home to roost, where people insist that the progress number must also be a guide to 'skill' or something and is worthless if it isn't. Mastery Rank is a guide to roughly how far you've progressed through the game, and if you're playing the game normally with pretty minimal care given to the whole thing, you'll still progress in it pretty naturally even if you tend to main a small handful of weapons and Warframes.

The only thing it discourages is refusing to ever try any other weapons or Warframes, which I think is fair given that Reactors/Catalysts are one of the ways DE makes its money and therefore DE has a significant financial incentive to discourage players getting into that sort of rut. The fact that this discouragement is also better for the players (because it pushes them into trying new things) is icing on the cake.

I should say since posting this, I really enjoy the "It will come to you in time" thing Warframe has going on. My purpose of this post was to shed light on something, not ask for it to be changed in any way. Thought it should go into "Feedback" since there's no "Shed Light On" section, but most of you should've already be able to figure that out. I really like being made to try new things, especially when it's risk free, so I'm happy with the Mastery system requiring me to try different things. But these problems are still relevant for others. I should also make it crystal that all but the plain text was taken from a Steam post, I don't agree with everything that person said, but I do see where he's coming from. I thought since I saw so much of this "problem" while researching and learning more about Warframe, I should bring it to light and see what people have to say. I'm 100% fine with Mastery, and I was 80% fine with it when I posted this thread, and I'm sure more people will be able to enjoy and see the uniqueness behind Mastery as well.

I really appreciate the kind, mature, and helpful feedback most of you are giving.

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On 2019-06-22 at 3:15 PM, Drachnyn said:

At MR 16 I told myself to not care about ranking up anymore. Eventually I got bored and ranked up anyway. Now I realize that high MR really has a great benefit: high standing cap. Everytime a new syndicate get's released I am glad to be high MR.

Yes you right, forgot about that. How much xp per syndicate and how much void trace you get.

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