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Pixues

Wisp's 1 vs Garuda's 2

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Wisp's Vitality Reservoir

  • Is her first ability
  • Is one of 3 branches
  • is infinite
  • can deploy 6
  • can teleport to them
  • when you walk out of range it follow you for a minute
  • Vitality has no CC, but Shock still does, for multiple enemies

Garuda's Blood altar

  • is her second ability
  • that's just it - no extra's
  • is finite
  • can deploy 3
  • it looks nice-ish
  • When you walk out of range its done
  • CC one enemy at a time 

There is probably more.

Garuda is lacking. alot. now.

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She really isnt. Keep in mind Garudas 2 actually takes 1% of the enemies hp per second as damage. 

Garudas 2 heals by percentile so the lower your hp the more it heals by

Garuda has a shield from her 1

Garudas 4 forces any weapon and her abilities to completely ignore enemy hp and armor scaling.

 

Garuda is a frame focused on killing with little energy cost

 

Wisp takes quite a bit of time and energy to kill a target assuming its a 150+ heavy armored gunner affected by breach surge + speed mote + corrosive Sol gate

Vs garusas 4 1 1 and the target just dies without input.

 

Also her 4 can CC a whole room while leaving them in a state that causes them all regardless of level to be wiped out really easily, 1 ~~ 4 against a wall results in a fish in a barrel situation.

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What he said^

 

Also just because one "drop buff" works a certain way, doesn't mean they all should (thematically//kit speaking)

Octavia's buffs aren't infinite, and they do a lot more. 

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With Strength taken into account, Wisp can heal around 50-60 Health per second, it's quite good as a heal-over-time, although not as good as Oberon.

Garuda can heal 25% of your missing health per second at base, meaning the more damage you take, the more health she restores. When you are taking high amounts of damage, and have your three altars up, it's possible to heal 75% of your missing health in 1 second. If your allies have high health, this could mean values of healing in the multi-hundreds per second.

Wisp would eventually heal a low-health Excal Umbra (with his Umbral mods he has well over a thousand health points)... eventually. At that speed she might heal them up in ten or so seconds, if they aren't taking damage. But walking in range of Garuda's altar would provide an initial burst of well over 250 health, and then have them up to around 95% of their max health in the next few seconds. If there were three altars overlapping? You could get that result in as little as two seconds, for an average of over 500 health per second.

Your point is interesting, but not really valid when you take into account how these actually heal.

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8 hours ago, (PS4)psycofang said:

She really isnt. Keep in mind Garudas 2 actually takes 1% of the enemies hp per second as damage. 

Garudas 2 heals by percentile so the lower your hp the more it heals by

Garuda has a shield from her 1

Garudas 4 forces any weapon and her abilities to completely ignore enemy hp and armor scaling.

 

Garuda is a frame focused on killing with little energy cost

 

Wisp takes quite a bit of time and energy to kill a target assuming its a 150+ heavy armored gunner affected by breach surge + speed mote + corrosive Sol gate

Vs garusas 4 1 1 and the target just dies without input.

 

Also her 4 can CC a whole room while leaving them in a state that causes them all regardless of level to be wiped out really easily, 1 ~~ 4 against a wall results in a fish in a barrel situation.

Which prevents you from using her passive.

Which doesn't give any buff, only healing which is useless in this game as long as your loadout make sense.

Her 4 doesn't force any weapon to ignore it just procs slashes, the dot ignores armor, not the damage itself, hence why it's useless 99% of time since most enemies aren't high level enough.

Garuda isn't focus on killing with little energy cost, Saryn is, Khora is,... Garuda is focused on nothing, her kit doesn't even synergize effectively.

Wisp instantly rushes through maps with CC and Pax. She's far superior to Garuda in every aspect as she address the way the game works while Garuda is playing her own game in an universe where the lowest level of enemy is 100.

 

That being said it's the devs choice but Wisp is far better that's for sure.

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28 minutes ago, Shelusine said:

She's far superior to Garuda in every aspect as she address the way the game works

It's funny isn't it, compared to the amount that people said that her 1 being placed would be effectively useless in the game... and kept saying it no matter how many times I corrected them...

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2 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

With Strength taken into account, Wisp can heal around 50-60 Health per second, it's quite good as a heal-over-time, although not as good as Oberon.

Garuda can heal 25% of your missing health per second at base, meaning the more damage you take, the more health she restores. When you are taking high amounts of damage, and have your three altars up, it's possible to heal 75% of your missing health in 1 second. If your allies have high health, this could mean values of healing in the multi-hundreds per second.

Wisp would eventually heal a low-health Excal Umbra (with his Umbral mods he has well over a thousand health points)... eventually. At that speed she might heal them up in ten or so seconds, if they aren't taking damage. But walking in range of Garuda's altar would provide an initial burst of well over 250 health, and then have them up to around 95% of their max health in the next few seconds. If there were three altars overlapping? You could get that result in as little as two seconds, for an average of over 500 health per second.

Your point is interesting, but not really valid when you take into account how these actually heal.

To be fair, Wisp's Vitality Reservoir also adds health.

The build I have currently and want to continue working on grants 85.2 health per second, and 852 additional health. The heal may not be Oberon good but Oberon can't add 852 health to people.

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Lets not act like this is new. Oberon has existed for a long time now and he has an even stronger heal/buff than wisp until you get into really high strength territory.

Tha comparisons are prett uneccesary since yes, one ability in one warframes kit is better in a number of situations to another ability in another warframes kit. But thats kind of underselling the fact that theres an entire warframe behind that ability. Shes not as much of a consistent support frame as wisp but... does she have to be? Thats not what garuda is.

41 minutes ago, Shelusine said:

Garuda is focused on nothing, her kit doesn't even synergize effectively

This is something i respectfully disagree with, I actually find she synergizes quite well with everything she does.

Her first ability allows you high mobility and a shield which can he used to prioritize higher value targets by allowing you to take no damage from them, your armor is enough to deal with anything else. Your heal feeds into garudas constant risk vs reward by giving you massive burst at low hp allowing you to take way more than most other heals would allow you so in conjunction with your shield you can shut down any real threats and let your healing close that missing hp gap further, and your ult can be used with a lot of other stuff in your kit to devastating effect. Your passive for massive bleeds from your weapon or abilities and your first ability for clear and single target picks.

It feela like its more mechanic synergies where the abilities just play out differently but happen to come around and make something cohesive while wisp just syergizes cause one ability has a bonis effect on another. Mote boosts ult, double range when you teleport to a mote, and your surge also comes from wisp. 

So going back to the initial argument, yes. If i want to play with a frame whos sole purpose is to benefit me or my team mates directly, Id want a wisp. Bonus hp/regen/cc/speed is really good. But thats kind of the only unique thing she does.

But if i wanted a frame who can do a lot on their own while still essentially benefit people on sheer accident, then id have garuda. 

They are just different frames for different purposes that in their own environment perform well at their pwn goals. Ones existence doesnt invalidate the others because they arent even playing the same sport.

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43 minutes ago, Shelusine said:

 Which prevents you from using her passive.

Her passive isnt a dictation of play style, her passive is rendered moot by her own abilities.

44 minutes ago, Shelusine said:

Which doesn't give any buff, only healing which is useless in this game as long as your loadout make sense.

By that logic Wisps 1 is easily as moot, slightly higher health and 60 hp/s will lose out to 250+ hp/s on a high hp frame or garuda herself. The point of her 2 is burst healing.

45 minutes ago, Shelusine said:

Her 4 doesn't force any weapon to ignore it just procs slashes,

The full damage of a weapon is now applied as slash not just 10% of a weapons slash. This means extremely hard hitting weapons will kill a high level armored target in far less shots (read 1 or 2) compared to Wisps kit.

47 minutes ago, Shelusine said:

Garuda isn't focus on killing with little energy cost,

Compared to Wisp yes she is, Comparing frames to overpowered warframes like Saryn or Trinity is screaming for a slippery slope.

48 minutes ago, Shelusine said:

Garuda is focused on nothing, her kit doesn't even synergize effectively.

Her 1 gives a shield and a ball with 10% of the enemies health

Her 4 makes any attack have its full damage apply as a slash proc

Her 3 and 2 give her 0 need for energy orbs

Her 1 and 4 is a localized nuke that drops enemies of any level as easily as a level 1

No synergy?

Please.

50 minutes ago, Shelusine said:

Wisp instantly rushes through maps with CC and Pax.

And Garuda rushes through a map at 2 HP with a hunters munitiond heat viral crit ignis and calls it a day.

High level target? Dies faster for garuda as well.

51 minutes ago, Shelusine said:

That

I disagree but ok, you can have your opinion.

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1 minute ago, DeMonkey said:

To be fair, Wisp's Vitality Reservoir also adds health.

You're absolutely right, and I really support it as a buff for other frames, it's actually really solid as a support ability. It's just pointless to compare it, as a healing tool, to a frame that doesn't heal in the same way.

As a point for Oberon, though, he can give players around 400-500 Armour on a good build, so while he isn't raising their max HP, he's definitely raising their Effective HP (especially on those squishy frames that go from only about 15% damage reduction up to around 75-80%) which is a rough match to the function of adding health. Oh, and give them a one-use-per-few-minutes Defy function... that too...

Still, OP should at least compare like to like...

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3 minutes ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

As a point for Oberon, though, he can give players around 400-500 Armour on a good build, so while he isn't raising their max HP, he's definitely raising their Effective HP (especially on those squishy frames that go from only about 15% damage reduction up to around 75-80%) which is a rough match to the function of adding health. Oh, and give them a one-use-per-few-minutes Defy function... that too...

To be fair, Oberon's heal is better for high health low armor frames (like Zephyr), because it adds what they lack. It's also a lot lazier to use.

Wisp's buff is more useful for anyone with Inordinate armor who would suffer diminishing return from Oberon, for example Valkyr, Chroma or Atlas.

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2 minutes ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

(especially on those squishy frames that go from only about 15% damage reduction up to around 75-80%)

Math is a little off I think. The frames with ~15% DR have 65 armour which is about 22% more health.

465 armour is just under 61% DR, which is about 155% additional health.

565 armour is ~65% DR, or 188% additional health.

These amounts are of course less for the truly squishy frames that only have 15 armour, whom only get 5% additional health.

Granted, this is certainly good, especially when the frame has Vitality on. However I know that many people will opt to use Quick Thinking on some of these lower armour frames and rely on the high energy pool they tend to have. In that case, or simply in the case of a frame that hasn't got health mods equipped for whatever reason, the health provided by Wisp is massively superior. A 100 base, 300 at rank 30 frame would gain almost 300% additional health from Wisp's Reservoir, a far superior amount to what Oberon can provide in ehp. The Defy function does of course require an additional slot to be filled.

And don't forget that all of the above constantly drains Oberon's energy, whilst Wisp's Reservoirs cost her nothing beyond the initial placement cost.

(All math performed one handed whilst under intense painkillers, take with a pinch of salt)

I certainly think both have their uses, just that perhaps Renewal is slightly lacking in some areas.

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10 minutes ago, Annnoth said:

Her first ability allows you high mobility and a shield which can he used to prioritize higher value targets by allowing you to take no damage from them, your armor is enough to deal with anything else. Your heal feeds into garudas constant risk vs reward by giving you massive burst at low hp allowing you to take way more than most other heals would allow you so in conjunction with your shield you can shut down any real threats and let your healing close that missing hp gap further, and your ult can be used with a lot of other stuff in your kit to devastating effect. Your passive for massive bleeds from your weapon or abilities and your first ability for clear and single target picks.

It feela like its more mechanic synergies where the abilities just play out differently but happen to come around and make something cohesive while wisp just syergizes cause one ability has a bonis effect on another. Mote boosts ult, double range when you teleport to a mote, and your surge also comes from wisp. 

So going back to the initial argument, yes. If i want to play with a frame whos sole purpose is to benefit me or my team mates directly, Id want a wisp. Bonus hp/regen/cc/speed is really good. But thats kind of the only unique thing she does.

But if i wanted a frame who can do a lot on their own while still essentially benefit people on sheer accident, then id have garuda. 

They are just different frames for different purposes that in their own environment perform well at their pwn goals. Ones existence doesnt invalidate the others because they arent even playing the same sport.

Ok, so. Let's be clear here. "High value targets", "high risk high reward"... That's a thing in endless. Anywhere else if your frame can't rush through you are doing a lot of nothing, which her abilities do. That being said her 1 is her best ability by miles and is really good at damage mitigation but that stops there, the other extra values are irrelevant to this game (except endless) which is my point. No one needs that amount of healing, especially not garuda. Magus Elevate will always be the better choice to have control over your passive and optimise your damage since her damage is already really bad/slow to execute compared to other frames. Rest is already explained.

I mean, if you play her like you described, no offense (really) but it's more like you are finding your own synergy in an universe where "priority targets" exist or even "risk". That's.... this game is far too easy to even speak in those terms with a 300 armor frame, it's like saying that healing is great when the highest level you'll meet is maybe 100, especially when dying in this game is 99% of the time a one shot. Something that comes from nowhere. That's why wisp health increase with a slower health regen is so good, it actually has value in the reality of this game AND it's portable. 

"That's the only thing she does" I mean... What else do you need in this game ? Bleeding on level 30 enemies ? Take your HP buff, speed buff, take a melee, clear through corridors or wipe a map or kill a boss. Wisp is better at all of that and... That's all she needs to be good at.

Garuda has a lot of tech that are irrelevant to most of the game. While saying that she can do a lot of things is correct, their application is... well weak/very niche.

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Garuda's heal is done in % values where as whisp is numbers.  There are positives and negatives to both.  I think a more apt comparison would be between wisp and oberon.

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3 hours ago, Shelusine said:

Ok, so. Let's be clear here. "High value targets", "high risk high reward"... That's a thing in endless. Anywhere else if your frame can't rush through you are doing a lot of nothing, which her abilities do. That being said her 1 is her best ability by miles and is really good at damage mitigation but that stops there, the other extra values are irrelevant to this game (except endless) which is my point. No one needs that amount of healing, especially not garuda. Magus Elevate will always be the better choice to have control over your passive and optimise your damage since her damage is already really bad/slow to execute compared to other frames. Rest is already explained.

I mean, if you play her like you described, no offense (really) but it's more like you are finding your own synergy in an universe where "priority targets" exist or even "risk". That's.... this game is far too easy to even speak in those terms with a 300 armor frame, it's like saying that healing is great when the highest level you'll meet is maybe 100, especially when dying in this game is 99% of the time a one shot. Something that comes from nowhere. That's why wisp health increase with a slower health regen is so good, it actually has value in the reality of this game AND it's portable. 

"That's the only thing she does" I mean... What else do you need in this game ? Bleeding on level 30 enemies ? Take your HP buff, speed buff, take a melee, clear through corridors or wipe a map or kill a boss. Wisp is better at all of that and... That's all she needs to be good at.

Garuda has a lot of tech that are irrelevant to most of the game. While saying that she can do a lot of things is correct, their application is... well weak/very niche.

I aint gonna hide the fact shes super niche and inefficient. Which is why i feel conparing her to wisp is a bit of a pointless endeavor since they are trying to accomplish 2 different things. If we compare warframes to eachother in such a way we'll just end up with a grey goo of warframes who are capable of doing a lot of things very fast and kind of losing individual identity out of frames that want to have more interesting mechanics at the cost of being slower or more impractical in the grsnd scheme of things since frames like mesa and saryn exist.

I was also mostly shedding on the fact her abilities do have a lot of synergy with the overall playstyle and kit she has, its just stuff thats more than "you have this ability out therefore this ability is now better" thats the case of wisp. That isnt bad for wisp but its just more apparent ona  frame like her how her abilities work together.

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1 hour ago, Annnoth said:

I aint gonna hide the fact shes super niche and inefficient. Which is why i feel conparing her to wisp is a bit of a pointless endeavor since they are trying to accomplish 2 different things. If we compare warframes to eachother in such a way we'll just end up with a grey goo of warframes who are capable of doing a lot of things very fast and kind of losing individual identity out of frames that want to have more interesting mechanics at the cost of being slower or more impractical in the grsnd scheme of things since frames like mesa and saryn exist.

I was also mostly shedding on the fact her abilities do have a lot of synergy with the overall playstyle and kit she has, its just stuff thats more than "you have this ability out therefore this ability is now better" thats the case of wisp. That isnt bad for wisp but its just more apparent ona  frame like her how her abilities work together.

That's a fine opinion and I'll respect it but tbh when a character does not address the game it is in, it's objectively problematic. Like, Garuda has a more "interesting mechanic" in your opinion of someone who enjoys it, that doesn't make it objectively more interesting than the frame whose mechanic fits the game. It's like when people around here start to argue about the bad stat of something and then bring "fun" in the context. You can be both, that's why nezha went from "interesting" to "interestingly good", because the uniqueness of his kit didn't change but its interaction and revelancy with the game did and Garuda really do need such treatment.

I mean, her synergy is bilateral too... her 4 goes into 1 and nothing else, her 3 goes into passive and nothing else, her 2 goes into 3 and nothing else. That's the same as... well actually not even the same as wisp since her abilities usually synergies with 2 others instead of 1. So I am not really sure where you are going with that. If you mean that Garuda's overall kit feels more synergistic to you, fair enough, to each their own, not gonna argue your preferences.

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16 hours ago, Pixues said:

Wisp's Vitality Reservoir

  • Is her first ability
  • Is one of 3 branches
  • is infinite
  • can deploy 6
  • can teleport to them
  • when you walk out of range it follow you for a minute
  • Vitality has no CC, but Shock still does, for multiple enemies

Garuda's Blood altar

  • is her second ability
  • that's just it - no extra's
  • is finite
  • can deploy 3
  • it looks nice-ish
  • When you walk out of range its done
  • CC one enemy at a time 

There is probably more.

Garuda is lacking. alot. now.

Uh... what? Garuda is one of the best designed Warframes. She is not lacking at all. She has her own thing, she can kill, be extremely self-sustainable with Bloodletting and Blood Altar, and deals more damage than Wisp.

In conclusion, this comparison is very poorly thought out. No Warframe has to be the best at absolutely everything. 

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1 hour ago, Shelusine said:

 

I mean, her synergy is bilateral too... her 4 goes into 1 and nothing else, her 3 goes into passive and nothing else, her 2 goes into 3 and nothing else. That's the same as... well actually not even the same as wisp since her abilities usually synergies with 2 others instead of 1. So I am not really sure where you are going with that. If you mean that Garuda's overall kit feels more synergistic to you, fair enough, to each their own, not gonna argue your preferences.

Youre mostly right but for me it usually wnds up going: 

I have my shield. Now i use 3 to halve my hp to get a boost from my passive with my shoeld protecting me while im on half or low hp. Blood altars weaker healing at high hp works to fight back enemies dps to keep me at roughly that half hp mark so i can not only sustain my self but still maintain my buff. This buff in turn vastly improves the damage of my blood ball for easier clearing and  vastly boosts the bleed capabilities of the ult.

Thats how it usually all works together for me. More often than not allows me to grab weaker weapons i like that i can mod for a bit more clearing potential with punchthrough, bigger mags, fire rate, whatever i see fit on a weapon.

But I digress, youre right that were just arguing preferences. I really cant argue much since youre still right in your own way whether i personally agree or not.

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i think the words you are trying to say are

POWER CREEP

and i know its not related but i feel that way when helga got a hovering ult while im looking at my zephyr with a sad face :C

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On 2019-05-24 at 6:17 AM, Shelusine said:

Wisp instantly rushes through maps with CC and Pax. She's far superior to Garuda in every aspect as she address the way the game works while Garuda is playing her own game in an universe where the lowest level of enemy is 100.

 

This is laughable, at low level all that Garuda has to do is cut herself to 2 hp and kill everything with a spray/aoe weapon. Her 1 lets you teleport across good distance and charge up a pretty good aoe, while 2 and 3 provide infinite mana. 

And oh yea, Seeking Talons is better than Sol Gate at any level. 

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Eh, if you use Garuda's 2 for anything but spot CC and Energy then you're doing it wrong.

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On 2019-05-24 at 7:04 AM, Birdframe_Prime said:

With Strength taken into account, Wisp can heal around 50-60 Health per second, it's quite good as a heal-over-time, although not as good as Oberon.

Garuda can heal 25% of your missing health per second at base, meaning the more damage you take, the more health she restores. When you are taking high amounts of damage, and have your three altars up, it's possible to heal 75% of your missing health in 1 second. If your allies have high health, this could mean values of healing in the multi-hundreds per second.

Wisp would eventually heal a low-health Excal Umbra (with his Umbral mods he has well over a thousand health points)... eventually. At that speed she might heal them up in ten or so seconds, if they aren't taking damage. But walking in range of Garuda's altar would provide an initial burst of well over 250 health, and then have them up to around 95% of their max health in the next few seconds. If there were three altars overlapping? You could get that result in as little as two seconds, for an average of over 500 health per second.

Your point is interesting, but not really valid when you take into account how these actually heal.

Is it missing hp or max hp? I was under the assumption Garuda healed you based on max hp. 

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On 2019-05-24 at 9:52 AM, DeMonkey said:

To be fair, Wisp's Vitality Reservoir also adds health.

The build I have currently and want to continue working on grants 85.2 health per second, and 852 additional health. The heal may not be Oberon good but Oberon can't add 852 health to people.

I need to make an oberon/wisp team combo sometime xD imagine getting a bonus 852 hp, a bonus 700 armor (from oberon 3&2) and healing 85+120hp per second. Lets throw in phoenix renewal too cause why not 

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