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Duobyte

Feedback on the recent looting change with Nekros/Hydroid etc.

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12 hours ago, Xzorn said:
  1.  Remove all Loot based abilities.
  2.  Replace Loot based abilities with fun / effective / on-theme functions.
  3.  Normalize drops based on Avg improvement of previous loot ability stacking.
  4.  Play what you want without worrying about a stat that doesn't serve a purpose.

This, 100%

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Reposting my original comments on Ivara and her loot abilities so that I don't have to repeat myself and others reading this thread aren't confused as to what I did or did not already say.

On 2019-05-29 at 1:52 PM, KarazyX said:

 

  • Prowl (with max range & duration + a max blind rage) depends on 8 meter range and 0.8 second steal timer PER enemy. (can be 11 meters and 1.21 seconds without narrow minded) and a whole mob can take 10-20 seconds to rob.

    • While Ivara's ability can double dip it doesn't really matter if Ivara can't steal from enemies in the Swarm or Strangledome (which hasn't ever worked for me) and can't steal from a group of enemies faster than Nekros, Khora, and Hydroid can kill them with their range (which doesn't need to be maximized to be efficient)

    • Because of limitations with range and duration, Ivara is better off wandering away from the group and stealing from spawns before they reach other teammates. However, in practice, this throws off spawns, especially in survival missions, where enemies spawn near Ivara and then take cover in the room. It's as if they are aware of her presence but unaware of her teammates causing total havoc in another room.

    • With pets, she synergizes best with a Chesa because they are both slower looters but Smeeta Charm buffs works better with Ivara's toolkit  and can net a double affinity, a resource boost for two minutes, plus rare resource instances—so why bring a Chesa?

    • With other warframes, she synergizes best with Pilfering Swarm or Pilfering Strangledome if the abilities are used in the choke point of a hallway with a dead end, where everyone hides around a corner in the dead end while Ivara stands at the start of the choke point and steals from the enemies. Not pub friendly nor exactly the most engaging gameplay, and only works in organized squads. This can also still throw off spawns if they aren't aware of other teammates.

....

 

  • Prowl's range and duration could be dependent on melee weapon range mods and attack speed mods on top of range and duration warframe mods:

    • There are plenty of abilities that are affected by mods on other weapons so I think that the frame who can totally ignore lasers and can fire a dashwire between two mountains on the Plains of Eidolon and Orb Vallis can use the range and attack speed mods on a weapon to pickpocket fast and far enough to keep up with other looter frames.

 

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Some people either just don't read or read something that isn't there and then go with it.  

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9 minutes ago, DatDarkOne said:

Some people either just don't read or read something that isn't there and then go with it.  

Hey, leave my mother out of this. 

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10 hours ago, Spaceman.Spiff said:

It's not hard to get, but you honestly cannot ever have enough polymer bundles.  There are a ton of resources that you simply always need, all the time.

That’s correct, i’m OK with that, everyone should because everyone downloaded F2P Looter Shooter where Farming for Resources is Core of game. Unfortunately, game reflects RL where tons of people want everything in split second without any effort.

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7 hours ago, Chipputer said:

Untrue. Glen addressed this bit of misinformation in his latest stream, actually.

They didn't even answer the question.

The question was about pathing to the player and he started talking about enemies and spawns.

I can answer their question though which is Yes, Enemy Radar does affect enemy pathing.

I can prove it as I know a way to produce the condition in a controlled environment. Gimme a bit to record and encode a video which I guess I should have done a long time ago as now I'm going to have to constantly post it to defend myself against this confusion.

You can test it yourself though if you'd like.

Take Ivara with minimal passive radar. Go into an Exterminate. Sleep and kill all but one Grineer in the first room then make your way quickly from that room using a silenced weapon. As  you get some distance the map might tell you to go back to that Grineer; ignore it and continue killing along the path towards the exit. Once the radar decides to tell you to go forward again you have forcefully stalled the pathing script enemies use to get from one location to another on the Grineer at the start location. Once you've gotten a decent distance away, start to walk back with your map up. As you get closer to the Grineer; it won't move at all, even when the radar indicator starts to point at it again. He will not move until he shows up on your map. Once he does the pathing script will kick in again and he'll run off to your previous location of progression as they're programed to do in Exterminate.

EDIT: Posted on the Topic: https://forums.warframe.com/topic/1100191-ask-me-almost-anything-again/page/4/?tab=comments#comment-10815469

 

8 hours ago, DatDarkOne said:

This happens because of enemy radar.  Enemies that appear on the radar tend to move toward the frame with it.  Ivara innately has 20m enemy radar without any other mods.  Using mods to increase the range of enemy radar shouldn't cause any problems for teammates in the same room.  

I personally can live with not having any looting abilities.  While I've mained Ivara for almost 4 years now, I haven't ever depended on the looting ability of Prowl and my build reflects that with only about 90-95% duration. 

While stealing things like Life Support has a mission mechanic purpose it would be cool if the generic loot were replaced with something more interesting. Not sure what exactly. Ivara Prowl is kinda pretty filled with features already but other frames could certainly use some perks instead of +%Loot. Esp their augments.

They didn't even bother to change the names for Hydroid & Khora's augments. They're both called Pilfering. Copy + Paste  -1 Imagination.

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7 hours ago, Xzorn said:

I can prove it as I know a way to produce the condition in a controlled environment. Gimme a bit to record and encode a video which I guess I should have done a long time ago as now I'm going to have to constantly post it to defend myself against this confusion.

Please do. When I tested it some months back it showed obvious pathing.  I just wasn't sure if it had been changed in the last couple of months.  

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What's sad about this is that this has really just taken out one of the purposeful cooperative team based aspects of the game more than anything else. In 95% of the game people just run whatever they want, and playing in squads literally feels like playing solo, since there are usually no synergies or incentive to rely on teammates other than leeching for affinity.

Removing the loot stacking has destroyed squad teamwork for working towards a common goal of trying to get x loot while grinding, and personally I think this will just end up with people not caring what they bring to farm resources, and hydroids yelling at Nekros's and Khora's for lowering their loot yield.

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So with the recent removal of loot frame synergy we need to keep a clear distinction between what is considered a "fix" and what is considered a "change" (buff or nerf). This is neccessary because from personal experience i know people look more closely to changes and less on fixes. Which is natural because fixes is often times filled with, while important, crash fixes it is also very boring to read. 

This opens up the possibility to potentially hide nerfs that no one wants/needs in there so less people see it and less people complain it. This is not the transperency i've come to expect from DE and is honestly disappointing.

Let's look at the recent console patchnotes:

  • Fixed Chesa Retrieve double dipping with Nekros’ Desecrate.    
  • Fixed Chesa/Desecrate double dipping with Hydroid/Khora.
    • When we added the Nightwave challenge for the Silver Grove, we encouraged a return to content that normally would have been fine. A small handful of players found an exploit and as we looked into things, we thought we fixed the issue with the new Chesa behavior that could lead to problems. We didn't. We decided to cut a bit deeper. Ivara's looting ability is now the only one that stacks with other looting because it works while alive. If a target is dead, a successful loot now happens once, no matter the source. However, multiple can attempt to loot the same body. Yes... this is different from how it previously behaved, but this is the new intended behavior.    

This is listed under fixes when the last sentence of that statement literally calls it the new intended behavior. A change in intent can not be fix, it has to be a change (in this case a nerf). We need lost transperency back.

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On 2019-06-09 at 4:12 PM, Xzorn said:
  1.  Remove all Loot based abilities.
  2.  Replace Loot based abilities with fun / effective / on-theme functions.
  3.  Normalize drops based on Avg improvement of previous loot ability stacking.
  4.  Play what you want without worrying about a stat that doesn't serve a purpose.

This. Magic find is a stat that may have made sense in a game like Diablo 2, where one had to balance one's ability to find better loot with the added risk one would incur by sacrificing combat stats, but there is no such tradeoff in a game like Warframe. Loot abilities and augments are a non-mechanic that get slapped onto whatever one wants to make more desirable without enhancing gameplay... except now that these effects are explicitly prevented from interacting with each other, why even bother picking anything other than the most efficient loot frame?

It's not even like it would be conceptually difficult to do for loot abilities, either: Nekros has been practically dying to be a proper necromancer this whole time (pun intended), rather than just a loot frame, and replacing Desecrate with a corpse explosion ability would work perfectly to that effect. If one really could not be bothered with making any major effort, an easy change one could implement could be to just have Nekros, Ivara, Khora, Hydroid, Atlas, and Chesa's loot mechanics drop a whole bunch of health orbs, Energy orbs, and ammo instead. Really, though, all of the above frames, save for Ivara, could use an update in some form or another: Nekros is far too dependent on his augments in order to function, Khora's a mess, Hydroid's been a walking wet blanket since the day of his release, which his issue did nothing to solve, and Atlas just needs a better 2 and 4 in order to be perfect. Setting a new standard of removing loot abilities from the game entirely would be a sterling opportunity to do a pass on all of the frames that have up until now been given them as a crutch to prop up otherwise lackluster kits.

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On 2019-06-11 at 6:52 AM, Teridax68 said:

This. Magic find is a stat that may have made sense in a game like Diablo 2, where one had to balance one's ability to find better loot with the added risk one would incur by sacrificing combat stats, but there is no such tradeoff in a game like Warframe. Loot abilities and augments are a non-mechanic that get slapped onto whatever one wants to make more desirable without enhancing gameplay... except now that these effects are explicitly prevented from interacting with each other, why even bother picking anything other than the most efficient loot frame?

It's not even like it would be conceptually difficult to do for loot abilities, either: Nekros has been practically dying to be a proper necromancer this whole time (pun intended), rather than just a loot frame, and replacing Desecrate with a corpse explosion ability would work perfectly to that effect. If one really could not be bothered with making any major effort, an easy change one could implement could be to just have Nekros, Ivara, Khora, Hydroid, Atlas, and Chesa's loot mechanics drop a whole bunch of health orbs, Energy orbs, and ammo instead. Really, though, all of the above frames, save for Ivara, could use an update in some form or another: Nekros is far too dependent on his augments in order to function, Khora's a mess, Hydroid's been a walking wet blanket since the day of his release, which his issue did nothing to solve, and Atlas just needs a better 2 and 4 in order to be perfect. Setting a new standard of removing loot abilities from the game entirely would be a sterling opportunity to do a pass on all of the frames that have up until now been given them as a crutch to prop up otherwise lackluster kits.

Magic find actually didn't make sense in Diablo 2, which is why when Blizzard decided to rework Diablo 3's loot system they basically removed it as a thing, because of two primary reasons:

1. Because of how long it takes you to kill enemies which drop rare loot, "magic find" becomes the most desired effect in the game where almost any sacrifice is acceptable to put more magic find on your gear. This distorts the game by making magic find dominant and making building all about mitigating the cost of stacking as much magic find as possible.

2. The game shouldn't be balanced around the expectation that players will have to run massive amounts of magic find to find decent equipment, because that becomes incredibly unfun for people who don't want to run or don't have access to stupidly high amounts of magic find.

Loot abilities are extremely awful because they lead to degenerate gameplay (instead of finding interesting team builds to maximize your killing efficiency, or learning to kill faster, it becomes all about running lootframes and mitigating their numerous weaknesses), they're not fun or interesting because they do nothing except pop out a few more drops, they actively punish you for playing non-loot frames by significantly reducing your drop efficiency, and they mean that DE must build loot tables with lootframes in mind, which is probably part of why you very often see absurd grind requirements for equipment.

EDIT: This is what the guy responsible for Loot 2.0 for Diablo 3 said about it, which I think is important for the Warframe devs to read:

Hello folks,

It's been a while, I've been off in Treasure Goblin land trying to get Reaper of Souls into shape. I wanted to stop by to give everyone some insight into what we are doing with Magic Find. For those of you who have heard me talk on the topic before you are probably already aware that MF is something we haven't been thrilled with for quite a while. The idea of MF is great "GET ALL THE THINGS!" the reality of it however is incredibly problematic and leads to more negative effects than positive ones. Getting the reward rate of the game to a place we are happy with is a difficult tuning process and when we try to add MF into the equation is creates a bit of a dilemma, one that was already pointed out in the thread, how do you balance the game to feel good for someone with 0% MF vs someone with 300% MF. Ultimately the answer to that question is "You can't" as such we have been trying to phase MF out of the game as much as possible.

In addition to changing exactly how MF interacts with finding items we also have dramatically reduced it's existence throughout the game. Having strong characters already equates into finding more items, both by virtue of killing things faster and also by virtue of playing in higher difficulties, which still do have rewards associated with them. Because of all of this we decided to not only remove MF as an affix from gear but also change exactly how MF interacts with different item qualities. MF will apply 100% of its benefit to Blue items, 30% to Yellow items, and 10% to Legendary and Set items. This means someone with 300% MF will end up finding roughly 30% more Legendary and Set items than someone with 0%. The design intent is to make things like Topaz gems in helmets or the Nagel Ring an option without them actually being mandatory.

I hope this helps clear the air and as the expansion moves further and further into its development cycle I'll start climbing out of this portal more frequently to answer questions.

This is why they eliminated magic find as a thing outside of a small handful of unique/set items, basically nuked its ability to influence the rarest and most desirable loot drops, and now even the example he gave of Topaz gems is outdated because they removed magic find from Topaz gems as well.

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So, yeah. Everybody is upset about the changes (the most valid reasoning being that these mechanics worked this way for years). Obviously, we need to find middle ground between "working as intended" for the developers and "working as expected" for the players.

While they do still synergize some -- nekros's and khora's augments don't work every time, which gives their abilities or the chesa a chance to proc, when they fail -- this is still considered a massive nerf by the playerbase. However, Ivara's ability can still stack, since it works on living enemies.

Off the cuff:

Why not change one of the "additional loot from dead enemy" skills into another living enemy skill? Like strangledome or tentacle swarm have a chance to shake loot loose from enemies caught in them? 

Additionally, if the issue was cloned copies of rare items spawning from each kill (I'm not clear on this being the issue, precisely), then would it be possible to create separate loot tables for each ability? 

And finally, there is the fact that witnessing these abilities in action at the silver grove is what started this all (thanks, Nora). Why toss the baby out with the bathwater by completely disabling these synergies? Would it be possible to disable loot augments working on specters?

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5 minutes ago, (NSW)FlatAffect said:

So, yeah. Everybody is upset about the changes (the most valid reasoning being that these mechanics worked this way for years). Obviously, we need to find middle ground between "working as intended" for the developers and "working as expected" for the players. 

While they do still synergize some -- nekros's and khora's augments don't work every time, which gives their abilities or the chesa a chance to proc, when they fail -- this is still considered a massive nerf by the playerbase. However, Ivara's ability can still stack, since it works on living enemies.

Off the cuff:

Why not change one of the "additional loot from dead enemy" skills into another living enemy skill? Like strangledome or tentacle swarm have a chance to shake loot loose from enemies caught in them?  

Additionally, if the issue was cloned copies of rare items spawning from each kill (I'm not clear on this being the issue, precisely), then would it be possible to create separate loot tables for each ability? 

And finally, there is the fact that witnessing these abilities in action at the silver grove is what started this all (thanks, Nora). Why toss the baby out with the bathwater by completely disabling these synergies? Would it be possible to disable loot augments working on specters?

It's weird because I never thought that Pilfer mods were working like Desecrate, as in I thought they were getting desecrated alive, and the desecrated when they were dead by Nekros, and that's why it was allowed to stack, but I guess that wasn't the point? I don't really understand any of this, but it makes me particularly unhappy as it has slowed down my gain of orokin cells to a snail's pace. No longer can we have plentiful orokin cells and mutagen samples. Oh no no no, this has been a glitch all these years that this has existed!

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I'm just glad they nerfed this retarded "AFK in a corner while Hydroid hits 4 once every 30 seconds" strategy that everyone seemed fond of.

I've never had any problem grinding for resources using all the other tools we have. All that while having fun, unlike all these AFK groups who bored themselves to death and now complain they hate this game. Somehow.

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16 hours ago, (NSW)FlatAffect said:

Obviously, we need to find middle ground between "working as intended" for the developers and "working as expected" for the players.

Not really, no.

The game will be made to work as DE expects and the players are free to express their (dis)satisfaction with that design, but DE is under no obligation or need to change the game to quiet the mob.

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Here is an idea.

Graverobber aura (polarity: scratch) - enemy corpses have a chance 20/30/40/50% chance to drop additional loot.

Need more looting capability then how about - Pilfer (rare warframe arcane) - 2.5/5/7.5/10% chance for additional loot upon killing an enemy ( aka enemies drop twice on kill).

That's like 2 or 3 chances for extra loot accessible to all warframes. No need for loot specific abilities or augments. Just an aura and arcane folks equip for extra loot in exchange for extra damage or survival. 

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I think I prefer that DE alters all loot abilities and removes all increase chance mods then boosts chances all around.  

If we cannot have interactions with warframes, then may as well make it independent of Warframe choice.  

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3 hours ago, Educated_Beast said:

I think I prefer that DE alters all loot abilities and removes all increase chance mods then boosts chances all around.  

If we cannot have interactions with warframes, then may as well make it independent of Warframe choice.  

DE should just increase droprates by ~25-33% across the board, remove all 'chance for extra loot' effects on all abilities, and put the Warframes held together by the existence of loot abilities in the rework queue. This would be a net buff to players who don't organize farm teams specifically to get more loot, probably result in several mediocre Warframes getting significant improvements, and be a net improvement to the gameplay experience of most players.

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On 2019-06-17 at 7:11 PM, peterc3 said:

Not really, no.

The game will be made to work as DE expects and the players are free to express their (dis)satisfaction with that design, but DE is under no obligation or need to change the game to quiet the mob.

I would never say they're obligated, but they massively altered a long aspect of gameplay in a ham-fisted manner. Yes, the mob is generally rowdy, because people are frequently whiny jerks towards developers, but you will most often hear me defending the less popular decisions made by development teams. Most people don't understand the process involved or what keeps people truly engaged with content. 

That being said, this isn't about quieting the mob. Players became accustomed to a longstanding method of gameplay. Instead of taking time to consider the impact of the change and do actual QA with the results, DE just implemented a universal "fix". I haven't found anyone who accepts these changes, beyond the few who realize how it devalued the individual loot frames and practically necessitated a specific squad setup for something as basic as farming resources. This is not good, engaging gameplay. A free to play game needs to balance the line of rewarding gameplay with challenging gameplay, creating a scenario where the opportunity to fast forward with real world money (plat) is not seen as abject pay-to-win.

Again, they are under no obligation to change anything. But if a considerable amount of the community (not a loud and vocal minority) is dismayed with a change, then they have a problem. It won't affect incoming players, but it will spread discontent among longterm players. If you can't retain these players, you shorten the overall lifespan of the game. I'd also be curious to see how this change has impacted rates of farming. Maybe they will pull the veil back in a future devstream. Tbh, I don't think it's having as much of a negative impact as people think it is.

12 hours ago, (XB1)Nightseid said:

Here is an idea.

Graverobber aura (polarity: scratch) - enemy corpses have a chance 20/30/40/50% chance to drop additional loot.

Need more looting capability then how about - Pilfer (rare warframe arcane) - 2.5/5/7.5/10% chance for additional loot upon killing an enemy ( aka enemies drop twice on kill).

That's like 2 or 3 chances for extra loot accessible to all warframes. No need for loot specific abilities or augments. Just an aura and arcane folks equip for extra loot in exchange for extra damage or survival. 

These are great ideas to diversify farming gameplay, though it might further encourage the narrow "nuke frame or gtfo" state of the warframe meta. 

10 hours ago, Educated_Beast said:

I think I prefer that DE alters all loot abilities and removes all increase chance mods then boosts chances all around.  

If we cannot have interactions with warframes, then may as well make it independent of Warframe choice.  

 

7 hours ago, MJ12 said:

DE should just increase droprates by ~25-33% across the board, remove all 'chance for extra loot' effects on all abilities, and put the Warframes held together by the existence of loot abilities in the rework queue. This would be a net buff to players who don't organize farm teams specifically to get more loot, probably result in several mediocre Warframes getting significant improvements, and be a net improvement to the gameplay experience of most players.

These are just as ham-fisted as the recent changes, nor are they realistic changes DE could even make. A free to play game survives by balancing the grind with the fun. The grind needs to make the achievement worthwhile without being tedious. It also needs to make the idea of spending some if your plat to hit fast forward seem desirable, without seeming necessary. They can't simply turn up farming across the board. Thos would not only damage the in game economy, but it would slash their own income. At the end of the day, this is a game for us and a livelihood for them. 

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15 hours ago, (NSW)FlatAffect said:

These are just as ham-fisted as the recent changes, nor are they realistic changes DE could even make. A free to play game survives by balancing the grind with the fun. The grind needs to make the achievement worthwhile without being tedious. It also needs to make the idea of spending some if your plat to hit fast forward seem desirable, without seeming necessary. They can't simply turn up farming across the board. Thos would not only damage the in game economy, but it would slash their own income. At the end of the day, this is a game for us and a livelihood for them. 

Yes, a free to play game survives by balancing the grind with the fun. This is why free to play games absolutely should not have loot manipulation, because that way you can actually balance the 'grind with the fun' instead of going "how do I balance the grind so it's fun for someone who's running no drop enhancements and someone who's getting 50% more loot?" (answer-you can't really do it). This is also why it's an eminently realistic change-loot manipulation is bad for F2P game design because it makes it impossible to balance the economic constraints in a F2P model. The ideal solution would have to never have loot manipulation in the first place, but the second best solution is to retire them from the game and replace them with better kits. Nekros is a Warframe held together entirely by the existence of loot manipulation, and deserves a significant rework. Most of the other lootframes are at best one-trick ponies and at worst actively bad. The two exceptions are Ivara, whose loot manipulation is tacked onto a legitimately good power and is so slow that if DE removed its ability to grant additional loot drops (versus energy/health/ammo pickups) people probably wouldn't notice, and Chroma, whose loot manipulation is largely useless (because it only affects credit drops) and is tacked onto a power that nobody uses. In both cases, the loot manipulation could go with no real effect, and for Chroma at least Effigy needs a massive rework anyways.

You argue that 'remove all loot powers, increase baseline droprates' is 'ham-fisted' but it's actually the opposite of 'ham-fisted.' It's a narrowly tailored fix to the core problem, which is that loot manipulation powers in Warframe exist and that is not only bad for players (who have to choose to sacrifice power for loot, which is not fun) but is bad for DE (because they have to balance droprates not knowing whether or not they'll deal with people using loot manipulation). Fundamentally, the way to get more loot in Warframe should either be:

1. Buy boosters (directly giving DE money)

2. Kill more enemies/complete more missions (which is fun and leads to a sense of accomplishment).

This balances "the grind with the fun." Loot manipulation powers don't, because they break the grind, and also break the fun.

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1 hour ago, MJ12 said:

You argue that 'remove all loot powers, increase baseline droprates' is 'ham-fisted' but it's actually the opposite of 'ham-fisted.' It's a narrowly tailored fix to the core problem, which is that loot manipulation powers in Warframe exist and that is not only bad for players (who have to choose to sacrifice power for loot, which is not fun) but is bad for DE (because they have to balance droprates not knowing whether or not they'll deal with people using loot manipulation). Fundamentally, the way to get more loot in Warframe should either be:

1. Buy boosters (directly giving DE money)

2. Kill more enemies/complete more missions (which is fun and leads to a sense of accomplishment).

This balances "the grind with the fun." Loot manipulation powers don't, because they break the grind, and also break the fun.

Loot augments give people an option outside of boosters for when they need specific resources quickly. Removing them and increasing drop rates across the board is an overly broad stroke that walks back the development in a direction which doesn't really address the original problem, removes an option beyond purchasing boosters, and would wildly affect the balance of farming overall, i.e. ham-fisted. 

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No one, literally no one: "Let's make desecrate not work with pilfering swarm"

Should we really be surprised by this kind of move? It's not what most wanted, kills off synergy between Warframes, and increases the amount of grinding for resources. If this isn't more telling to what's wrong with development and DE approach to Warframe idk what else to say. They have been and continue to make moves that do nothing to improve gameplay, desirability to play.

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Barely someone said “Thank you” when: Oxium Drop was increased and possibility to Desecrate Ospreys, when Tellurium was moved from AW missions only, when Rare drops, like Neurodes, Gallium or Neural Sensors, were increased, when we got Vacuum everywhere, when Boosters were added into Sorties, Daily Tribute and Baro, etc. We have 5 Looters, 3 Companions, few Mechanics to increase Drop but after DE made decision: it’s little bit too much, because it will probably hurt the game Economy, lots of players start to complain and blame. A little bit of self criticism before doesn’t harm anyone.

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