Feedback on the recent looting change with Nekros/Hydroid etc.

[JakeArgent]

I like doing cool stuff, getting cool items & drops. Basic resources aren't cool. Now farming needs to be done more often.

This is a video game, an activity pursued for pleasure. Pointless to make its boring parts more prominent. Outright foolish even.

[(PSN)Yes-Man-Kablaam]

the only real change i see here is you won't need a nekros as only one farm frame will apply and there's a few farm frames now. and then take a chesa to mop up what the farm frame misses. though i was never one for going into the big organized, frankly boring, farm groups.

[(XBOX)B1ueKarou]

21 hours ago, Kothophed said:

 

If [Other] please explain: _____________________________________________

Sorry for the textwall, wanted to be precise and cover all my points.
TLDR: I'm critiquing this "fix" because I want Warframe to be the best game it can be.  What're your motivations for arguing against me?

hey, i just felt like i needed to interject here becuse my issues with this change in gameplay is a little different from what ive seen anyone else posting.
as a veteran player, been playing since before mobility 2.0, i was a big fan of coptering and even though it was a hassle and entirely useless, i thought it was stupid and fun. it was also technically an exploit of the way the system was built. you werent supposed to be able to move that fast or far by doing a horizontal jump melee, but the way the game was written we as a playerbase figured out it could work in our favour. while ther was no loot reward, no damage done; while it was just purely mobility based, it was technically an exploit of the games code at the time. i dont think that there would be anyone who coptered who would say that it was bad and unfair to the game. i only bring this up to try to say that theres a difference between something being an exploit and something breaking the game to give the player an unfair advantage. yes, it pretty much can all be distilled into semantics, but from an objective point of view there is a difference.
now that my opinion on exploits is out of the way, i have to get on with why im speaking up.

to put it bluntly, warframe is one of the worst game for a new player to try to get into on their own. i would put  lot of money into betting that quite a few people who play this game and say that its terrible are people that didnt have anyone to help them figure out the more.... hidden parts (for lack of a better phrasing) of this game. things like advanced modding, arcanes, progression. bac in the day, you had to scan sentients on uranus, an enemy that would spawn for a few moments and disappear, in order to get the second dream. DE likes to make this game unnecessarily difficult and obfuscated for solo players sometimes. im saying this as someone who isnt a solo player.
a couple years ago, i convinced an irl friend to try out warframe. he kept wanting to quit the game because "it was too much math" in regards to the modding system and, i think, the variety of mods just overwhelmed him. i kept him going with the promise that id buy his next round when we went out for drinks after work if he kept playing warframe. one of his constant, and i mean CONSTANT miseries was that he "never had enough resources."

as someone with 6k+ hours in this game... i forget what thats actually like. ive got enough control modules to build a planet made of nothing but them. i could use my orokin cell hoard as ammo for a soma and be fine in their quantity afterward. i will NEVER need resources again. but ive also been playing this game for so long. maybe too long. i used this method to get him to a functional amount of backstocked resources. the hydroid + nekros combination isnt just something done by people who tradechat rare mods. i, personally use it to help new players to my clan. for new players in region chat. i know im not alone with that either. when youre starting out, having 5 extra orokin cells? thats momentous. damn near unbelievable, how could i have been blessed with such a bounty, kind of thing. 

theres a difference between a bad exploit, and a necessary exploit. in certain moments, yeah. this is bad. it could throw a lot out of whack, but its also almost as necessary as coptering was if youre a new player. simple things like nano spores, polymer bundles, definitely oxium. basic resources that are used for actual progression. i think we all forget how daunting it can be to look at this game from the eyes of someone who just booted it up for the first time. from the eyes of an mr2. going into recruiting and seeing "X-Basic-Resource-Farm ####" can mean the difference between spending 6 hours trying to get what you need and spending 45 minutes. 

i dunno dude, these are just my thoughts. sorry for the wall of text. i just usually stay silent on these forums, but... i thought i had somehting to say that no one else was saying.

Edited May 25, 2019 by (XB1)B1ueKarou
clarification

[cmacq]

Just gonna put this out there. I am a relatively new player (mr 13) and I have no problem at all with basic resources. I knew nothing about this farming synergy before this thread so it hasn't affected me one way or the other. One thing I do see in these forums is vets who maybe need to take a break for a while. Thinking that DE is conspiring to make their lives miserable is the indicator of that.

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

15 minutes ago, (XB1)B1ueKarou said:

theres a difference between a bad exploit, and a necessary exploit. in certain moments, yeah. this is bad. it could throw a lot out of whack, but its also almost as necessary as coptering was if youre a new player. simple things like nano spores, polymer bundles, definitely oxium. basic resources that are used for actual progression. i think we all forget how daunting it can be to look at this game from the eyes of someone who just booted it up for the first time. from the eyes of an mr2. going into recruiting and seeing "X-Basic-Resource-Farm ####" can mean the difference between spending 6 hours trying to get what you need and spending 45 minutes. 

You make good points, and as someone who's been here for just over a year, I know that resource poverty is a definite issue for newer players. 

But here's the problem with claiming that this method was needed by these newbs who don't have anything.... They're not going to be the people who can hop into a highly forma'd, augmented frame, with others who can do the same thing, and work together for an hour in survival to afk farm what they need. 

Last farm run I remember well was a tellurium farm (I wanted polymer bundles or something) and there were 2 high-single digit newbs on microphones talking about needing to get a Nekros to help, and one said they were working on getting the augment for Hydroid. 

At the end of the match they were super excited because they made it past 30 minutes. I chimed in said that I'd give the augment for free if he wanted, and I was already running Nekros. Gave each of them some stuff and we went back into it. I explained a lot of stuff in the next 40 minutes. 

They wouldn't have been able to do it on their own, because they didn't understand much of what was happening and why we would benefit more if we do it in a particular way. Their gear also wouldn't have taken them that far on their own. They certainly wouldn't have been able to get the triple dip from a single corpse going on their own. 

 

[Zeclem]

12 hours ago, Ced23Ric said:

Just in case some people didn't watch devstream #128; DE heard the complaints and will debate on what to do about this. Steve and Scott stated that they won't improv an approach on stream, but the feedback has been received.

excuse me for not buying their extremely vague pr reply. if they want to go with the change they should at least make it cheaper to research clan techs like hema. otherwise its gonna suck extra for new clans. 

[UnDeadProph]

Is it just me or did they straight nerf Hydroid also. I used to be able to get the 4 ability to about 45-50 seconds. Now i cant hardly get it to 25 seconds. And the range is straight ass now. Used to be able to hold 4 down to slightly negate a little of the narrow minded effect on this ability. Now you HAVE to equip stretch for it to be any useful at all. 

[-Himari-]

Moved to a proper section.

[ChaoticEdge]

*reading the paper from the dev* ... *gone back reading the main comment* well $##t he got that right...  What the heck DE plz don't pull that on us because there is no way get the bodies in the water which hydroid do spit them out once they are dead for they were fine but if it is making 2 enemies of its dead bodies for yea it would make sense to fix that which that is exploit to the game.  I don't do exploit of the game which I do report bugs but I hadn't realized this is a bug to them which I thought it was normal and fine and that is how DE program it.

[Im_a_Turtle]

DE analyzed their "fun farming" data and found that "fun and effectiveness" was simply way too high, so they needed to bring it down a notch to maintain a balanced Grind-to-Fun ratio.

[Vulture051]

On 2019-05-24 at 3:19 PM, EvilChaosKnight said:

All I can say.
RIP all future Hema farmers. Enjoy even less mutagen sample drops than before.

I was honestly unaware that getting Mutagen Samples is hard. Must have been easier in the past because I have 300k of the damn things and nothing to do with'em.

[EvilChaosKnight]

16 minutes ago, Vulture051 said:

I was honestly unaware that getting Mutagen Samples is hard. Must have been easier in the past because I have 300k of the damn things and nothing to do with'em.

Are you sure you aren't confusing them with NanoSpores or Plastids?
Without boosters the avg. earn rate for Mut Samples is about 1 per minute.

[Smaksost]

This is a horrible idea, this must be reverted.

[(PSN)CodyXSavageX]

if they take away loot stacking they have to address the .01% drop chance mods that exist in this game it's only fair

Edited May 27, 2019 by (PS4)CodyXSavageX

[(XBOX)Zweimander]

I personally don't have that big a problem with the idea of the change. One nekros is enough to get all the loot you need reasonably and now I get to see even less of hydroid whom I despise anyway so this is a win win. The only interaction I would want back in probably the ability to double dip with your Chesa because that seem to be the weirdest change to me.

[AKTKWNG]

Changes suck right now, but I could see a potential net gain in the future if loot ability effectiveness was buffed across the board, or drop rates were increased, or some other kind of universal change. As it stands right now, if you want to optimise a loot farm, you NEED nekros + khora + hydroid. Anything less than those 3 is sub-optimal, and players will play frames they otherwise don't like playing if they can optimise their farm. Just look at all the old recruit chat messages of "H polymer farm, need khora and hydroid". If farming abilities were non-stackable but buffed, then one person would be able to play their preferred farming frame, while the other 3 would be able to play whatever they want. And it would give DE more leeway to create more farming frames/augments without worrying about breaking their estimates for drop tables.

[Fallen_Echo]

On 2019-05-25 at 8:10 PM, (PS4)Yes-Man-Kablaam said:

the only real change i see here is you won't need a nekros as only one farm frame will apply and there's a few farm frames now. and then take a chesa to mop up what the farm frame misses. though i was never one for going into the big organized, frankly boring, farm groups.

The problem start with two sides, one is the map and one is efficiency.

Depending on the map size you can choose to not bring nekros because hydroid is 100% chance but his skill is capped and requies kills to work. In that case khora is better because theres no cap on how many enemy can be pulled onto the dome.

If the map is large enough the best is to get a nekros, in fact the best way to farm now seems to be a team of 3 nekros and 1 whatever because that means highly boosted drop chances over a large area.

[Fallen_Echo]

26 minutes ago, AKTKWNG said:

Changes suck right now, but I could see a potential net gain in the future if loot ability effectiveness was buffed across the board, or drop rates were increased, or some other kind of universal change. As it stands right now, if you want to optimise a loot farm, you NEED nekros + khora + hydroid. Anything less than those 3 is sub-optimal, and players will play frames they otherwise don't like playing if they can optimise their farm. Just look at all the old recruit chat messages of "H polymer farm, need khora and hydroid". If farming abilities were non-stackable but buffed, then one person would be able to play their preferred farming frame, while the other 3 would be able to play whatever they want. And it would give DE more leeway to create more farming frames/augments without worrying about breaking their estimates for drop tables.

The problem here start with IF.

The reason why they nerfed this interaction because we seemingly gain more than they want to (despite that even the devstreams advertised this technique) so i doubt they will ever touch the overall gains because that would null the original nerf.

[Xzorn]

I personally don't think loot based abilities should have been a thing in the first place.

We're not actually gaining anything globally by their existence. DE considers them when they assign drop chances and you might have noticed most of the new high end drops cannot be affected by loot abilities nor Vacuum. It would be better to replace them with something and normalize drop rates so that these farming metas have a more broad spectrum. Instead of mandatory bring X-Y-Z +%Loot frame it becomes more about what group comp will maximize performance for the task at hand.

[VanFanel1980mx]

On 2019-05-23 at 10:39 AM, Duobyte said:

Has literally no one noticed this change? Haven't seen a single topic on the forums about it so I will start my own. This was put in patch notes as a "fix" when it is a straight up nerf.

So what this means is that Nekros cannot desecrate enemies stuck in hydroid/khora abilities, essentially nerfing the double dip combo for maximum farming that has existed for years now.

What made DE suddenly have a change of heart and make this "bug fix". Is farming loot faster bad for the game? Whats next? Smeeta not stacking with resource boosters? 

 

Please don't let this go unnoticed. This is a huge nerf for a game based on collecting loot that was put in the patch notes as a minor "fix".

They hate when people find efficient ways of getting their stuff, remember how they killed CC and environmental deaths (even greedy pull), I would just have one major complaint/suggestion, in the case of Nekros his desecrate doesn't have a guaranteed 100% extra loot chance, why doesn't DE at least stack it with retrieve so it can reach 100% or near 100% with others? that's no double dipping, that would just mean everything would drop something extra and that's it.

[VanFanel1980mx]

On 2019-05-23 at 10:53 AM, (PS4)BenHeisennberg said:

Hydroid Nekros was a staple for my clan when it was new, as well as many others, for obtaining the Hema.

As you have effectively made it harder for newer clans to get the Hema than we had it, mutagen samples need a drop rate/chance increase.  I'd say at least double, but at least consider raising it by the amount of a Desecrate.

According to the Devs samples are plentiful or something, on the other side maybe they want more people to buy the Hema.

[Steel_Rook]

3 hours ago, Xzorn said:

I personally don't think loot based abilities should have been a thing in the first place.

We're not actually gaining anything globally by their existence. DE considers them when they assign drop chances and you might have noticed most of the new high end drops cannot be affected by loot abilities nor Vacuum. It would be better to replace them with something and normalize drop rates so that these farming metas have a more broad spectrum. Instead of mandatory bring X-Y-Z +%Loot frame it becomes more about what group comp will maximize performance for the task at hand.

Agreed. Powerful loot-enhancing abilities don't actually give you more loot. Instead, drop tables are adjusted for the most optimal farming anyway, meaning everyone else gets saddled with S#&$ drop rates. I'd personally like to see either a decrease or a straight-up removal of loot-boosting abilities and a corresponding rebalance of loot drops now that those buffs are gone. Stuff like this is why I'm a proponent of normalisation. The smaller the difference between your average player and min/maxers is, the more finely-tuned content can be to a broad section of the playerbase.

This is precisely why Wolf happened. He had to be over-tuned massively to account for people with Rivened out min/maxed guns else he'd be trivial, but all that ended up doing was making him abominable for everyone else. A lot of drop rates currently seem to have been set with Nekros/Hydroid/Khora/Nidus in mind, leaving everyone not playing those comps to suck eggs and pray to RNGesus. I mean, does anyone seriously believe that Toroid drop rate was designed around a random pubbie team just needing a few of them? Because I don't.

Normalise drop rate boosts, then rejigger drop rates. Simply rolling back the loot-buff-stacking change is the wrong way to fix the issue.

[Darth_Predator]

8 минут назад, Steel_Rook сказал:

straight-up removal of loot-boosting abilities

While this can be easy with Hydro, Khora and Chroma, Nekros will require some sort of replacement, cause just making it "Desecrate now generates only health orbs" will be a bit underwhelming. While I'll be ok with that cause despoil -> desecrate -> orbs -> health conversion -> profit, it may require some sort of additional effect or rework of the ability altogether. Or just rework of the entire frame /shrug

If the trade-off for removing those abilities will be less f***ed up resource acquisition, I'll not oppose it. Though I'll miss my cat's random rare resources finds.

[Steel_Rook]

12 minutes ago, Darth_Predator said:

While this can be easy with Hydro, Khora and Chroma, Nekros will require some sort of replacement, cause just making it "Desecrate now generates only health orbs" will be a bit underwhelming. While I'll be ok with that cause despoil -> desecrate -> orbs -> health conversion -> profit, it may require some sort of additional effect or rework of the ability altogether. Or just rework of the entire frame /shrug

No disagreement there. Eliminating loot buffs would require major changes to not just Nekros, but probably also Ivara and a few others. Desecrate is one of Nekros' signature abilities, and just reducing it to health orbs does seem underwhelming. I don't have good ideas about what to do with it off the top of my head and I don't want to take random stabs at it as that'll undermine the central point. But yes, my hope is that normalising loot buffs will be followed up by increases in drop rates. If they're balanced around loot buffs, then they need to be increased to compensate.

[Fallen_Echo]

56 minutes ago, Darth_Predator said:

While this can be easy with Hydro, Khora and Chroma, Nekros will require some sort of replacement, cause just making it "Desecrate now generates only health orbs" will be a bit underwhelming. While I'll be ok with that cause despoil -> desecrate -> orbs -> health conversion -> profit, it may require some sort of additional effect or rework of the ability altogether. Or just rework of the entire frame /shrug

If the trade-off for removing those abilities will be less f***ed up resource acquisition, I'll not oppose it. Though I'll miss my cat's random rare resources finds.

Desecrate now generates health and energy, successful generation of health and energy orbs regenerate half of the health/energy orbs value.

Desecrate now generates shadow orbs, shadow orbs on pickup heal/overheal nekros and his shadows while also briefly stop the health consuption on shadows. Allies/Nekros picking up the orb gain 50 overheal per orb stacking up to 500 overheals gained. Overheal decreases by 5 per second.

Just two ideas what could work incase of reworkimg desecrate.

 

Thought i believe even if we get all loot abilities removed the grind wouldnt be adjusted at all because DE.