Jump to content

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Duobyte

Feedback on the recent looting change with Nekros/Hydroid etc.

Recommended Posts

Should DE roll back these changes ?   Absolutely definitely, no question.  

Will they?  Don't hold your breath.

If you saw the way Steve and Scott mumbled there way through the question from Rebecca on this during the last dev stream it should not inspire hope.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This was probably done to slow the acquisition of Hexenon, but impacts the entire game. I went to farm some with double boosters as Khora, ended up in party with thre Nekros. We all stayed a little away from each other so our abilities wouldn't conflict, and then would occasionally hop over to the other's location to scoop up resources. But therein lies the problem; this change runs counter to the very base design of the game. Being forced to stay out of range of one another pushes teammates out of affinity range.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, Steel_Rook said:

I like to refer to this as "balance of extremes." It involves creating a thing - a Warframe, a gun, an ability - which is objectively terrible to the point of nobody using it... Except one single aspect which is supposed to make it all worth it. Overwatch had Roadhog who was everywhere and extremely popular... Up until they nerfed his Hook one-shot combo, and he became pointless until a massive amount of rebalancing. Payday 2 had the original Minigun which was very powerful in theory but slowed you down, had no ammo pick-up, was hilariously inaccurate and generally had no real selling points. Consequently, few people used it. Even as far back as City of Heroes you had Instant Healing, which made Regeneration overpowered... Until it was redesigned and all of a sudden Regen was "awful."

In my experience, balance of extremes never works, or at least doesn't work well. It creates niche items which are hard to balance and constantly teeter-totter between "too powerful" and "too weak." Trying to fix an underperforming Warframe or Cat by throwing in a single out-of-context highly desirable ability is the wrong way to go about it. You still have a Warframe people don't want to play, except now they feel pressured into playing it because of that one thing. As I said, I'm fine with making loot-boosting abilities mutually exclusive, but this has to come with additional changes beyond itself. That's the problem with balance of extremes.

That's a good way of putting it.  I'm part of the crowd that dislikes the entire concept of loot-enhancement existing and factoring into the balance equation (yes, I understand energy and health orbs are part of loot enhancement - I am an Ivara main! - but I wish it stopped there instead of extending to resources), but which accept this is a looter shooter so that sort of stuff is going to exist.  But if it's going to exist, it can't be this extreme.  Like you've said, this creates an extremely niche identity based entirely around a single function.  Niche warframes, weapons, and pets are fine, of course - but when the niche application is "it's compatible with a single particular mod" or "you spam one ability and ignore the rest of the kit," then you have a broken design that is unappealing to play and justified exclusively by something that can wildly swing between overpowering and useless.

My distaste for looting abilities is best summed up with this other post:

On 2019-05-27 at 4:01 AM, Xzorn said:

I personally don't think loot based abilities should have been a thing in the first place.

We're not actually gaining anything globally by their existence. DE considers them when they assign drop chances and you might have noticed most of the new high end drops cannot be affected by loot abilities nor Vacuum. It would be better to replace them with something and normalize drop rates so that these farming metas have a more broad spectrum. Instead of mandatory bring X-Y-Z +%Loot frame it becomes more about what group comp will maximize performance for the task at hand.

If DE is already making looting abilities non-functional on important things, and now nerfing looting abilities as a whole.... why have they been so gung-ho about adding them?  Why can't ordinary resource costs be rebalanced around an inability to boost drops?  This is what we should really be seeing, and looting abilities should be replaced with +% chance of health orb drops (for Nekros and such) or +% chance to steal energy orbs (for things like Ivara).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Remember Viver?

Remember when D.E. nerfed Excal and Trinity because of what people were using them for on Viver?

Remember how only a small part of the community actually used that thing on Viver?

Remember DE reverting the nerfs and just removing Viver after community backlash?

Don’t punish everyone for the misdeeds of the few. Fix the issue without making things worse.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Nerfing the loot in a loot based game. Can't help but think this is just desperation for the content to be able to last longer.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

100% agree with the OP - he put it together well.

i do understand why they did this, but again, they never considered the consequences of changes and/or new contend beforehand and then over-reacting to 'fix' them afterwards. also, putting any new resource in the game and then wanting to prevent the players to use the most effectiv methods they were given to frame it, is rather low.

and no, don't even think a organized farming run is necessary just beacuse the new resource (not much problem to get what was needed for myself and my storm clans research), but if we had this option, i see no reason not to use it... next time better NOT give us new options to farm more stuff when it means getting nipped at the bud afterwards.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, (PS4)Onder6099 said:

To be fair, which concrete Resource is hard to get, that we need full squad of Looters?

Its probably less about hard to get resources and more likely about people wanting to minimize farming time to maximize farmable resources so that they don't have to farm the same resource all the time to build stuff they use all the time. After they're done they can then go back to playing content they enjoy—at least that is often the case with myself.

For those who have everything, have forma-ed everything, have maxed out everything, and/or do endurance runs all the time, there is probably only a few resources in the game that they're actually interested in farming and, even then, they may end up having a big enough stockpile of resources that looting abilities are inconsequential to them. Alternatively, they may just prefer to bring whatever frame they feel like and are happy using smeeta buffs.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 часа назад, (PS4)Onder6099 сказал:

To be fair, which concrete Resource is hard to get, that we need full squad of Looters?

Mutagen samples

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You completely forgot Atlas' ore gaze. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Since the latest update that nerfed the interaction between farming frames it is clear DE is unhappy with player’s creating farming teams. I assume its giving them problems releasing new items as these frames flood the market and reach the building requirements in a couple of hours. With that in mind, it makes sense to limit interactions to these elite farmers but in doing so made most farming frames besides a desecrate Nekros less appealing.

I guessing this problem might be that everything falls under one loot table. Below are a 3 suggestions on tackling this issue:

Suggestion 1 – separate reward loot (mods, endo, resources, etc.) from support loot (ammo drops, health orbs , energy orbs, life support, etc.). Then have the farm frames only affect the support loot category. So folks can double dip on rewards. Problem here though is then we might be flooded with health orbs and life support, which would be an issue.

Suggestion 2 – remove All loot abilities and rework every power/augment that affects loot. No desecrate Nekros, Pilfering hydroid, or Pilfering Khora – instead these abilities either get a specific loot drop like Oberon’s Reckoning or provide a specific benefit that would have otherwise been received from support loot.

Suggestion 3 – rework how rewards are provided… not sure how but this would require a massive adjustment of a core component of the game. Although in general I do feel mission reward (from endless missions) need to be reworked, as we (players) tend to drop new game modes once we obtain its unique rewards but that’s another topic.

If farming frame group is a problem for DE then I would recommend suggestion 2 and remove loot abilities. This suggestion really only impacts Nekro’s Desecrate as it is specifically built to spawn more loot – DE could use this as an opening to either create a new mechanic or when desecrate is active it provides a specific buff to his allies or himself.

Possible ideas for a new Desecrate.

Desecrate v1 - Nekros emits a toxic aura that damages enemies around him. When enemies die within desecrate’ s range Nekros and allies gains life-link or a damage buff.

Desecrate v2 - Nekros emits an aura that converts corpses into energy restore buff – uses health.

Desecrate v3 – Nekros emits an aura that converts corpses into shadow energy which increase his power strength. Shadow energy is completely consumed whenever Nekros uses an another ability.

Possibilities for Nekros rework are endless (deserving of its own thread) but this is thread is about the new update which nerfs their ability to interact.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Removing all loot abilities seems like a step backwards. Synergy between different Warframes to give more bang for your buck always felt nice, even when it was simple (Nekros in any farming mission with Hydroid present).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
42 minutes ago, Voltage said:

Removing all loot abilities seems like a step backwards. Synergy between different Warframes to give more bang for your buck always felt nice, even when it was simple (Nekros in any farming mission with Hydroid present).

It does/did feel nice getting that extra loot but then you always needed those two frames in your group composition, and it's boring.

Why not give every frame the ability to recieve extra loot via a basic aura mod or arcane?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, (XB1)Nightseid said:

Why not give every frame the ability to recieve extra loot via a basic aura mod or arcane?

It's almost like the Smeeta Kavat exists. Farming resources can get boring no matter how you slice it. Allowing a few Warframes to give loot seems fine to me, and it's worked well for years. Now we have Pilfering Strangledome which is a nice addition, but that won't make me instantly drop Hydroid.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

No, wdf...like you don't even know how irrelevant this thread is. Just no.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 hours ago, Voltage said:

Removing all loot abilities seems like a step backwards. Synergy between different Warframes to give more bang for your buck always felt nice, even when it was simple (Nekros in any farming mission with Hydroid present).

There's a fine line between "synergy" and "requirement." It's pretty clear that DE are basing their drop tables on dedicated farm teams, so you aren't actually getting loot any faster. You're getting it at the intended rate and everyone else is getting it slower. I say scrap all loot buffs, redesign their respective abilities and augments, then rebalance the drop so everyone can get a decent drop rate, not just edge-case premades.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Last Devstream promised to go more indepth about the loot frame nerf but after one and a half weeks we still have radio silence on the topic. This looks more and more like DE is trying to sweep it under the rug for long enough to have people forget about it entirely. 2 Things need to happen:

  • Revert the nerf to the loot abilities.
  • Stop trying to hide nerfs in the fixes.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This sort of thing makes me feel foolish for telling my friends 'DE is a different sort of company.  They have MTX but they have been very honest and transparent about it, and it's about as fair as you can get for a free to play game.'

Then, they go and hide a loot nerf in the bugfixes section of a huge update and hope noone sees it so they can sell more boosters.  When did DE get bought out by EA?  It's as dishonest as any AAA game has been lately.  I worked hard getting the faction rep to get farming mods.  I was so excited to get a pilferoid, and now it's useless because Nekros is better and you can't use both.  This is supposed to be a team game and it's full of horrible team interactions.  Loot frames are now all incompatable.  Multiple Nova's ruin each others experience since the molecular fission mod that lets you refresh null stars with molecular prime only works on your own molecular prime, and if the other nova has everyone primed you can't prime them yourself.  Same with 2 Saryns, just try to keep your spore count going when there is another saryn.  It's a mess.

DE needs to work on getting better team synergy going, not nerfing it to sell more plat.  I buy plenty of cosmetics to keep the game afloat, but I will not be tricked into buying/spending plat because of deceptive crap like this.  So, on plat strike till this gets resolved.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
vor 7 Stunden schrieb TaigenRaine:

Then, they go and hide a loot nerf in the bugfixes section of a huge update and hope noone sees it so they can sell more boosters.

This is what i get the least about the loot frame nerf: Even when farming with a Hydroid and a Nekros you still wanted to have a resource booster because some grinds are just that long. 

vor 7 Stunden schrieb TaigenRaine:

Loot frames are now all incompatable.  Multiple Nova's ruin each others experience since the molecular fission mod that lets you refresh null stars with molecular prime only works on your own molecular prime, and if the other nova has everyone primed you can't prime them yourself.  Same with 2 Saryns, just try to keep your spore count going when there is another saryn.

Multiple of the same frame do not stack with each other at best and even prevent each other from effectiv use of their abilities at worst. This isn't really a bad thing though since it encourages having a diverse team. This in turn means that the abilities of different frames should have synergy. This is why Rhino's Roar doesn't stack with another Roar from a different Rhino but it does stack with other Damage buff abilities like Chroma's Vex armor.

The loot frame nerf turns this on it's head and is not consistent with how the game regularly works. 

It's so disappointing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 2019-06-01 at 3:17 AM, (XB1)Nightseid said:

Suggestion 1

These are already possible and hardly pose any problem. The life support one would also finally bandaid the buggy mess of the survival mode.

On 2019-06-01 at 3:17 AM, (XB1)Nightseid said:

Suggestion 2

This would be nice but would also need a total rebalance of all crafing costs. Many items already need absurd amount of materials and if we dont want to speed up burnout even faster we would need to do something about the costs.

On 2019-06-01 at 3:17 AM, (XB1)Nightseid said:

Suggestion 3

The whole problem started from double dipping mods and such. I suggest that mods and special equipment should no longer be a drop but a mission end reward what you can trigger on killing a specific target.

For example each unit could spawn as a "material carrier" considering the specific drops it offers and killing them would reward the said drop. A tempo bursa would always drop a tempo royale but its spawn is controlled by the mods rarity.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I would be in favor of removing loot doubling abilities in favor of any of the many suggestions (totally new abilities, make enemies just drop more health/ammo/energy/lifesupport, etc) but only if it comes along with an across the board drop chance doubling.  Then you don't have people tripling/quad/etc with loot teams, and you give everyone the same experience as if they had a nekros (without every farming group NEEDING a nekros).  Loot can then be fine tuned from there.  The grind is certainly high enough right now, drop chances could be better, and they definately don't need nerfed.  Much rather actually play the content I enjoy instead of running mission A 2000 times to try to get what I need.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't see any problem with using specific frames to the advantage of team.  That's the core of Warframe.  

Even when this was possible, nothing was taken from the game but grind.  

Hydroid needs a complete rework, his one saving grace is destroyed.  That was the only viable augment mod (the corrosion one would be ok if the range of #1 wasn't impossible to increase, healing puddle isn't needed with arcanes that heal immediately by jumping in/out body).  

Hydroid could farm, now he has nothing because nekros is better.  

This change is disapointing and unnessesary.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

×
×
  • Create New...