Jump to content

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

(PS4)RenovaKunumaru

Wukong rework first impressions

Recommended Posts

13 minutes ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Alright, I've taken a read through your thread @(PS4)RenovaKunumaru and I've seen all your responses @DeMonkey

But what I haven't seen is somebody try to spin this rework in a positive light. It does seem a lot of doom and gloom, and I'll point at the two most recent frames (Hildryn and Wisp) as examples of why this doesn't have to be the case.

Am I completely happy with those two frames? No, not really. But by far and away they both function better than they have any right to. I was surprised by both, and I think we have room to be surprised by this new Wukong rework.

So, 1, clones are bad in Warframe. They are. We know.

What is the bright side of this, though? And that's the way DE have experimented with remote activation of abilities with Wisp. Her 3, which is actually pretty good as a radial blind and as a boost in damage when in groups with high DoT status weapons, can be triggered off from her 2 as well as by teleporting to her 1. So if Wukong has the ability to trigger off one of his specific abilities from his clone too? There could be a very good reason for that.

2. Defy is, and I agree, one of the most mindless abilities out there and free invulnerability isn't a great function on any frame. But here's a thought that I came up with; what if they're just making Defy into temporary invulnerability in the way that Loki has temporary invisibility, or Zephyr has temporary ignore-ranged? So you have a vulnerability window at the end of the duration that you need to pay attention to, which is easily managed as players of both those other frames can attest. Or at worst you have a Harrow style of invulnerability period and then a period of effect from the cast, which players of Harrow will attest is genuinely good enough in almost all situations that they need it.

3. Wukong's 4 definitely does seem to be getting its effects buffed, they've said that it's getting its base stats buffed, and those combos they showed off were actually very, very appealing. With instant access to a ranged attack that has the kind of length that Iron Jab has, and a follow up gap closer, or instant access to his AoE ground pounds for clearing an area... plus the fact that the combo they did show off for both his neutral and moving variants seems multi-hit and very fast... yeah, I think that his 4 is actually going to be very much improved.

Not sure about the charge-up counter in the vein of Baruuk, that's a debatable one, but that should make him far more energy happy than he has been in the past.

What am I getting at with these? Well, think about that combination, of remote activation of abilities and the way the Clone functions as a mirror and not as a copy of your current actions for basic attacks. If you're in trouble, sending in your Clone in melee mode while activating your Defy could be as good of a function (maybe even doubling the effects) as Wisp's clone using her 3, remotely gathering you the damage boost, drawing aggro, and you're also able to be temporarily invulnerable for recovery purposes. Then when the damage period kicks in, you can be using your guns for large effect for the period, or able to switch over to melee mode yourself to be the front-liner while your clone shoots things mindlessly too. It's more options, rather than less.

Instead of having a stick that you poke enemies with, you have a spectre that can go poke enemies with a stick for you, I call that a win for now, especially if you can combo other abilities into that stick-poking clone.

As a little conclusion, open to debate...

We've been impressed by things that we thought wouldn't work before. I think that having a measure of optimism by looking at what existing functions these changes could be leveraging is actually going to yield more accurate interpretations of how useful this whole thing is going to be.

I do get where you're coming from, the most recent frames have been impressive despite us not knowing anything. But wisp? our main cplaint was that the sun beam made no sense and it still doesn't. the beam also sucks against high level enemies. Hildy I can't speak out much about, but without arcanes she suddenly becomes much weaker than you think she is. She can't instantly recover her shields or randomly gain 900 armor from nowhere. But the fact they're not telling us many in depth stats and aren't showing us a lot is really concerning. They revealed to us ALL of wisps abilities and even went in depth as to how you can mix her abilities. This seems like they were slowly dancing around having to explain this stuff. Which is worrying. 

For clones, yes they suck. But if DE does this right, then they could get better and become worth it. During God of War, gaming found a good way to make use of companions. Control. If we have a way to say, ok attack this guy with a powerful hit, like i suggested with my Primal Fury charge attack, then all of a sudden you want tons of clones out in order to hit them multiple times. Control is a way to get an easy good AI.

Invincibility isn't good we all know that. there are ways to go about dodging death rather than "oh well i'm invincible" or "oh well I got healed to max health." I suggested one such way, a form of resource management based on your clones. It's not completely brainless yet grants you a way to avoid death. But we also need to respect that Wu Kong in folklore is the unkillable trickster. He needs some easy way to cheat death. Energy happy also isn't rally an issue because he can be modded for efficiency and equip rage. If you need a tiny bit more energy just recover with focus schools and be a tiny bit cautious in the process. Also remember they said "brief windows of invincibility" it won't be loki invisibility or turbulence. It's going to be 3-4 seconds of invincibility and you won't be able to regen any energy from that. No matter what way you spin it it won't work with Rage anymore which was his core ability.

The biggest gripe I have with the way Defy making you invincible for this "brief period of time" becuase it taunts enemies. why would you taunt enemies when your profile says "stealth". yes I get it, this is warframe nobody is stealthy. But whenever we throw the word stealth around it involves invisibility, parkour, and finishers. Not "SHOOT ME". plus the way Defy will work with a Hair of the King, that seems so counter intuitive. Enemies will shoot you sometimes and your hair other times. You're purposefully splitting the enemies damage for this worse ability. You're going to want to not cast the 1 ability if you build for Defy.

Wu Kong has no way to survive without Defy at the moment of this rework. His skills don't CC unless were going on about his ultimate where it has some larger aoe. yeah CC isn't the most reliable way to stay alive. Vauban proves that and he's got pure CC. Wu kong would get floored by high level enemies. Plus were changing a CORE ability. an ability everyone on the warframe loves. it's like stripping away old rhino's stomp and giving him instead a massive 50% slow. It completly changes the feel and ascetic of the ability. Players who like hard cc no longer would play rhino, because rhino lost his hard cc. Defy made Wu Kong a tank, he's got nothing to make up for it that another frame can't do better. Armor? Rhino // Health? Inaros // Undying? Nidus // Shield, Hildryn // Literal invincibility, Valkyr // Enemy accuracy? Zephyr // Damage reduction? Mesa // Constant regeneration? Oberon. // Redirection? Trinity. His unique way of survival dies and he doesn't even become a cc frame in return. he gets... critical?

The only way i can see Defy going is oh hey, damage you take turns into damage reduction... that's nezha and chroma. 

For the moment this isn't up to debate. because there's nothing to debate without information. We've gone through the info and have pretty much come to the conclusion that from what they've said so far, it sucks. if you're saying maybe they've got something in the works for him and they don't want to tell us, look at Vauban's rework. He got to charge balls. that's it. Wu Kong looks like a worse rework version of Ember. Tampering and nerfing the one thing that made the warframe decent, and giving nothing useful or fun in return. As for optimism, I've learned that through life, never expect anything from anyone, and you won't be disappointed ever. I've looked at what DE could do with this, but it honest to god seems like they didn't talk much about it because they just don't know what to do. They talked to talk. If they came up with a good reason to use that clone like they did with wisp, they would talk about it. But they didn't. it's just there because other games have it and that's something Wu Kong is known for.

However it's For the Moment. we could all be blowing smoke and could be wrong, you could 100% be right. or maybe not. for now, we can't debate it because there's too many unknown right now. it honestly just looks like they made it so, hey look, combo system. oh by the way we just started on a wu kong rework. 

If a warframe needs to have arcanes or mods like adaptation to make it do it's job right, then the warframe fails. They should be able to do good lvl content as is. the way it's looking, Wu Kong will need not just arcanes, but rage and adaptation.

As DeMonkey said.

42 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

I need to know more before I do that.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, DeMonkey said:

Not a real Wukong thread till I comment on it 😛

:o So you don't have monkey markers x:

from the looks of your monkey staff build too you're familiar with him a lot more than others i hope. Another of my kind, not enough of us lmao.

Helio statstick glad antics ^.^

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

As a little conclusion, open to debate...

  • I think AI in Warframe is complete trash. There's been too many instances where I've seen the AI just stand there and do nothing, or get stuck, or not engage, or remain stationary. Its a valid concern.
  • Also, if I'm meleeing why would I want my specter to shoot? If I'm using my melee weapon, its because melee is the best option for the job. I dont expect this thing to be useful for anything really, besides perhaps a distraction.
  • The argument against defy is based on the idea that the alternative isnt better. I just cant wait to see, why 1 person is taunting, before the effect even takes place, someone else just kills the enemies.
  • The staff changes are still nothing special. It sounds terrible in fact. The changes they described are just melee 3.0 changes. Every weapon is going to get those changes. Besides this Baruuk (terrible decision imo) style "rage" mechanic there is nothing to excited or hopeful about. And people dont like Baruuks build up meter mechanic either. Another thing to not be excited for.
  • Great rework coming. "Oh Boy" You're likea the rework eh?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, (PS4)RenovaKunumaru said:
  • I think AI in Warframe is complete trash. There's been too many instances where I've seen the AI just stand there and do nothing, or get stuck, or not engage, or remain stationary. Its a valid concern.
  • Also, if I'm meleeing why would I want my specter to shoot? If I'm using my melee weapon, its because melee is the best option for the job. I dont expect this thing to be useful for anything really, besides perhaps a distraction.

I agree that AI in warframe is usually pretty bad but there is definitely some upside to having the specter shoot while you melee. The general idea would be you don't have 1 good weapon out of the 3 you can equip but 3 good weapons. So while someone may be spin2winning with an atterax the specter is taking out stragglers with the riven'd sicarus prime you have ( which is likely to happen considering the specter has 100% accuracy). I still am in doubt because of the AI being shotty but if it's not this ability could be useful. 

8 minutes ago, (PS4)RenovaKunumaru said:
  • The staff changes are still nothing special. It sounds terrible in fact. The changes they described are just melee 3.0 changes. Every weapon is going to get those changes. Besides this Baruuk (terrible decision imo) style "rage" mechanic there is nothing to excited or hopeful about. And people dont like Baruuks build up meter mechanic either. Another thing to not be excited for.

They didn't say how they were going to use the rage mechanic. On one hand they could use it to lock his 4 behind a specific amount of kills,damage taken. damage reflected etc. But on the other hand they could tie it to the range of his 4 meaning rather than it going from 5 back down to 2 meters in an instant when the combo counter decays, his range will slowly decay allowing you to find more enemies while still keeping it's range up. This would obviously be a welcome change. Really could go either way 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, DeMonkey said:

 

I mean, crit buffs, base stat buffs etc sound nice, but really Wukong doesn't need them.

My staff already hits for hundreds of thousands of damage per swing and takes me well above level 100.

Remember. Primal Fury is only good because of an exploit. That should not be. It should be strong enough to perform without it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 minutes ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

Remember. Primal Fury is only good because of an exploit. That should not be. It should be strong enough to perform without it.

Eh, it was performing at a sortie level even before gladiator set. Glad set working is unlikely to be an exploit, as it's current state is the "fixed" version of what was originally an exploit.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, toyetic said:

They didn't say how they were going to use the rage mechanic. On one hand they could use it to lock his 4 behind a specific amount of kills,damage taken. damage reflected etc. But on the other hand they could tie it to the range of his 4 meaning rather than it going from 5 back down to 2 meters in an instant when the combo counter decays, his range will slowly decay allowing you to find more enemies while still keeping it's range up. This would obviously be a welcome change. Really could go either way 

But. why would they ever want to do that? Valkyr can just slap enemies with her exalted blade. While Wu kong has to build up his range, excalibur can slice enemies from over 10-20m away. Excalibur's and Valkyr's exalted are far superior in the sense that they grant buffs along side a powerful weapon. but you're saying Wu kong has to do work to get his buffs? and more so they don't stay on him to the end of the ability and he can't cast his at will. With baruuk we accepted this, just abrely, because he's a monk who shows restaint. it matched his theme. Wu Kong has no such theme to pair with a "4lock" mechanic.

heck even Ivara has a better exalted. She, like excalibur can make use of headshot multipliers. Wu Kong can't get anywhere close to that. His exalted sucks, so putting it behind a "4lock" makes no sense at it's core because it fails with it's attack mechanics. yes you get added CC and knockdowns now, but... will that help you survive, kill, or affect enemies 30 meters away? no. yet all other exalted weapons in the game have an answer to this.

Valkyr has immunity and armor
Baruuk can sleep and disarm, plus his exalted can effect enemies at a range.
Excalibur has an ability that sends out waves of light for 40m
Mesa is Mesa
Titanya is hard to hit and has both melee and ranged exalted weapons
Balefire is ranged
Ivara can cloak, sleep, and shoot from a range.

Wu Kong has nothing. It's just a staff. He used to have Defy, now he can taunt.

With taking away defy for survivability and putting his ONLY CC behind a "4lock" he's got nothing but a specter to held him live. It's not like cloud walker will restore him, they won't rip an ability from revenant. Cloud Walker doesn't let you kill or control enemies by the sounds of it. Putting his 4 behind some sort of barrier just hurts for no other reason than to hurt.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
29 minutes ago, toyetic said:

They didn't say how they were going to use the rage mechanic. On one hand they could use it to lock his 4 behind a specific amount of kills,damage taken. damage reflected etc. But on the other hand they could tie it to the range of his 4 meaning rather than it going from 5 back down to 2 meters in an instant when the combo counter decays, his range will slowly decay allowing you to find more enemies while still keeping it's range up. This would obviously be a welcome change. Really could go either way 

This could be useful if DE, nerfs all ranges across the board with melee 3.0 and Wukongs staff has a significant increase in range vs all the other weapons. While weapons base range caps a 7, Wukongs is 12 would be good. Otherwise, yet again, lackluster.

 

32 minutes ago, toyetic said:

I agree that AI in warframe is usually pretty bad but there is definitely some upside to having the specter shoot while you melee. The general idea would be you don't have 1 good weapon out of the 3 you can equip but 3 good weapons. So while someone may be spin2winning with an atterax the specter is taking out stragglers with the riven'd sicarus prime you have ( which is likely to happen considering the specter has 100% accuracy). I still am in doubt because of the AI being shotty but if it's not this ability could be useful. 

You cant depend on Warframe AI to do that as you traverse quickly. They'll rush to follow in a lot of cases. Especially with macro s2w atterax example.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Violet_Xe said:

But. why would they ever want to do that? Valkyr can just slap enemies with her exalted blade. While Wu kong has to build up his range, excalibur can slice enemies from over 10-20m away. Excalibur's and Valkyr's exalted are far superior in the sense that they grant buffs along side a powerful weapon. but you're saying Wu kong has to do work to get his buffs? and more so they don't stay on him to the end of the ability and he can't cast his at will. With baruuk we accepted this, just abrely, because he's a monk who shows restaint. it matched his theme. Wu Kong has no such theme to pair with a "4lock" mechanic.

A. Im not saying locking his 4 behind a rage mechanic is good, im saying it would be bad, and im saying it's something they might do

B. Wukong's "work" to get his buff is hitting enemies to increase it's range, the reason this is the case is because throughout the journey to the west wukong utilizes a staff that expands and contracts at will.

C.im saying DE may use the baruuk mechanic as a way to buff his 4 and it's extending range gimmick by changing the way the range decreases or they might just lock it behind the mechanic for whatever reason the point is WE DON'T KNOW HOW IT'S GOING TO BE USED

4 minutes ago, Violet_Xe said:

heck even Ivara has a better exalted. She, like excalibur can make use of headshot multipliers. Wu Kong can't get anywhere close to that. His exalted sucks, so putting it behind a "4lock" makes no sense at it's core because it fails with it's attack mechanics. yes you get added CC and knockdowns now, but... will that help you survive, kill, or affect enemies 30 meters away? no. yet all other exalted weapons in the game have an answer to this.

 We both agree on this part 

 

7 minutes ago, Violet_Xe said:

Valkyr has immunity and armor
Baruuk can sleep and disarm, plus his exalted can effect enemies at a range.
Excalibur has an ability that sends out waves of light for 40m
Mesa is Mesa
Titanya is hard to hit and has both melee and ranged exalted weapons
Balefire is ranged
Ivara can cloak, sleep, and shoot from a range.

Again we agree aside from maybe balefire wukong has the worst exalted in the game 

 

8 minutes ago, Violet_Xe said:


Wu Kong has nothing. It's just a staff. He used to have Defy, now he can taunt.

With taking away defy for survivability and putting his ONLY CC behind a "4lock" he's got nothing but a specter to held him live. It's not like cloud walker will restore him, they won't rip an ability from revenant. Cloud Walker doesn't let you kill or control enemies by the sounds of it. Putting his 4 behind some sort of barrier just hurts for no other reason than to hurt.

None of us have any idea exactly whats being done to defy. All we know is that it will in some form "end" giving us damage reflection. No other numbers, or figures have been shown in how that will work. So the idea that they're taking away defy and giving him no ability to survive is baseless speculation

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
40 minutes ago, Violet_Xe said:

With taking away defy for survivability

We don't know that. 

Just because he's losing EZPZ press one button immortality doesn't mean the replacement isn't going to provide some degree of tankiness. He could, and should, still be a tank.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

This rework is getting rid of drain abilities in his kit because, as noted on Nezha's most awesome rework, drain abilities are objectively worse than Duration abilities. People don't like it on Baruuk and use his 2 and 3 instead to keep up his damage reduction.

Do not attempt to give him an ability on his 1 that interrupts energy gain for his later abilities. The whole point of putting it on a duration is that you can cast it and ensure you've got a guaranteed duration of the clone and even if you get a Magnetic proc or an Energy Leech Eximus taking your energy away, you still have the benefits of casting that ability. As a drain, you lose that function as soon as something makes you lose energy, whereas a Duration lets you keep it while you recover.

This is even worse, because to make this work you would have to scale the clone, instead of making him a copy. Otherwise, due to the lack of comprehensive AI on the clone, he'll get one-shot the second he's summoned at higher level. Well, unless the new Defy genuinely will keep Wukong alive as well as the current Defy does...

Wanting a variety of methods is fine, but the reason they aren't having the variety is because the other choices are bad choices.

 

I understand that sometimes straight duration is better, BUT when casting a buddy, that you just want to have all the time, at least I do, channeling would be better if its a bit cheap.
All the player has to do is keep their energy up which is easy enough with enemies dropping energy orbs left and right and other sources.

If its duration then it wont last long enough (just look at the mentioned frames Equinox and Nyx) so you are constantly just recasting the ability because, why would ever not want to have it? so it just becomes massively tedious, thats how I feel with those 2 mentioned and with frames like Chroma, constantly recasting his 2nd and his 3rd.

Even Atlas's 4th which thanks to some modding lasts over a minute, its still one of those "how is my rock dude doing? oh he's gone, guess Im recasting then".
Heck now thinking about it, with how much health that Rumbler has, that would make for a great death on actual death of the rumbler candidate, I dont recall ever seeing my Rumbler die due to actually losing all its health.

Going for channeling for once is not a bad choice, it works great on Ember's 4th, Equinox's 4th, Chroma's 4th, Hildryn's 3rd and 4th, Valkyr's 4th, Excalibur's 4th, heck with Nekros they changed his 3rd specifically to a channeling ability because mashing 3 all the time is just the worst.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Keep in mind all Wukong related things are still a WIP and are subject to change, so some things discussed may become moot later on.

1. Changing Iron Jab to Hair of The King

Its thematically sound, and conceptually sound, what it most likely will not be is mechanically sound. We all know how bad Warframe specter AI is, yes, give them a sniper rifle and they'll kill everything in the index for you, but specters suck when fighting against hordes of enemies, which is 95% of the game. Although, it IS a step up from iron jab, which was completely useless outside of a niche build with the augment and glaives.

If I could tweak it without actually changing the ability, I would add at least 2 more clones, and possibly more, then make it so clones always target a different enemy than other clones unless there are less enemies than clones. If you can't fix specter AI, the simplest solution is to either speed the AI up, or to add more instances of them, I think the latter would work best with Wukong.

2. Defy

So apparently defy will change from invincibility to some sort of block and retaliate, they didn't show it off so it could really be REALLY good or REALLY bad, sort of how Nezha's warding Halo change originally looked worse but in conjunction with his other abilities it was actually downright better. Without any real footage and values however, it's too early to say anything about it.

Defy wasn't even that good anywayy.

3. Cloudwalker changes

Now this is a change that happened where I was certain there was going to be a replacement. I don't think changing cloudwalker will ever really make it worthwhile using, even with adding a crit chance buff to the end, and even if that crit chance buff was insanely high like +5000%. Why do I think that? Well, because cloudwalker is an ability that when you activate it, it means you are purposely NOT playing the game anymore, you have literally gone into a state where you can do absolutely nothing worthwhile, and I don't think a crit chance buff on exit is going to counteract the 5 or so seconds you spent doing nothing. Also, even with the movement speed buff to the cloud, it is still slower or equal in speed to bullet jumping, and it costs energy unlike bullet jumping.

If I could replace the ability, I would make it an ability that in its mechanics lets you close the gap for a melee attack, such as a speed boost or a homing attack (like atlas punch homing). Wukong never used the kinto un (flying nimbus) in combat or rarely did, it was a transportation tool, there are a plethora of other concepts from Wukong that you could grab to replace a generally bad ability here, such as transforming into beasts or buffs such as deity level strength and speed.

4. Contrary to popular belief, I actually think gauge type exalted weapons are actually better than energy type exalted weapons, yes, they do require that you build the gauge up, but in exchange you use less energy overall, zenurik works while you're using the weapon, and half the time you're building gauge passively. All of this means it is much easier to forgo efficiency in frames with gauge abilities, since now instead of 4 abilities with the 4th being very energy hungry, you now have 3 that generate resource for the 4th. Granted, desert wind isn't the best exalted weapon, but there is potential in the concept, and in the case of Wukong could alleviate the energy problems he currently has (defy is super inefficient).

Other than that, I think its passive of range increasing needs to be buffed tremendously, as in make it the longest weapon in the game kind of buff, and give it some way to get through armor, since impact damage and low status chance isn't exactly the best for killing armored enemies. 99% of the time nobody uses the staff because it is both worse in range and stats than a lot of melee weapons, it should at least have a clear distinct advantage over every other weapon (being immense range).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, toyetic said:

None of us have any idea exactly whats being done to defy. All we know is that it will in some form "end" giving us damage reflection. No other numbers, or figures have been shown in how that will work. So the idea that they're taking away defy and giving him no ability to survive is baseless speculation

Well from what's being shown and said, it does seem like they're taking it away. They didn't exactly say so on steam but if you look at the devstream overview it says this specificly.

  • Those of you who are familiar with Wukong, this ability is moving away from permanent invincibility aspect in favour of a more active playstyle. Defy will allow players to make use of small windows of invulnerability while they “taunt” at enemies, followed by a reflection of the damage taken.

This implies that the "I can't die" type of deal is thrown out the window in favor of a scaling damage ability utilizing "brief" windows of invincibility. Now yes this is vague, but the way DE operates has me worried that the moving away from invincibility in favor of damage takes away Wu Kong's survivability. Brief probably means no more than 4-5 seconds. Even if they did say give him or some sort of buff based on damage he takes during this "brief" period of invincibility. It would be copies of other frames and would feel like a trickster thing to do.

Nezha, takes damage to get halo
Rhino, takes damage to get more iron skin
Frost, globe takes damage to gain hp
Octavia, mallet takes damage to gain damage
Garuda, take hp damage to do damage

Once Defy is done, the taunt is still there. Enemies will target you down and blow you up unless you leave. But that's IF your team doesn't blow up the enemies first. There's also the issue I already talked about, the Hair of the King cuts damage in half as enemies will be focusing on either you OR the clone. And there's also things that need to be taken into account such as what happens if you taunt a bombard. they'll fire a rocket at you and if defy ends before that rocket gets to you, you blow up yourself after reflecting all that damage. There just seems like too many holes in this.

Also the idea of getting rid of immortality makes no sense. Rhino can reach stupid and I mean STUPID damage reduction levels which allows him to sit in front of lvl 400 heavy gunners like nothings wrong with the world. GHS found a way for rhino to get over 1,000,000 armor. Trinity can use two abilities and 2 mods to become a literal god. Nezha if used properly can't die due to invincibility after halo goes down.

yes it's speculation, but not without reasons behind it. DE doesn't give you scaling damage and invincibility together. it doesn't happen. I could be wrong, I hope I'm wrong, but from the way things have turned out before i've little hope for Defy at this point. I'm not saying that it's impossible alright. But it seems very VERY likely Wu Kong's going to draw the short stick here. Like Vauban, like Ember, and like Nyx.

I'll say this though as I know Wu Kong can control it at will... Why not do what revenant does? Channel increased energy to make it longer and deal more damage? Why implement a rage system? Channeling feels more "will" inspired than having to jump through hoops no?

3 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

We don't know that. 

Just because he's losing EZPZ press one button immortality doesn't mean the replacement isn't going to provide some degree of tankiness. He could, and should, still be a tank.

this is a newer one so i'll still reply to this. Again, "brief periods of invincibility" If Wu Kong remains a tank, where will he get his tank stuff from?
  -Specters? no they don't draw too much attention.
  -Defy, eh maybe that's in question but I highly doubt it because it will grant us some sort of scaling damage. Scaling damage and survivability are very rarely seen together.
  -Cloud Walker? Well it seems like cloud walker is becoming a buff mechanic to critical.
  -Ultimate? If anywhere it'll come from here. Except it won't because it will be locked behind a 4 mechanic and force you to use a weapon that sucks. If it doesn't suck, then they'll lock it away even harder to prevent you from getting access to this ultimate, which in turn takes away how you get your survivability. Plus te way they talked was that he would have CC to his ultimate now. CC, damage, and survivability within a single ability? doubtful.

If i'm wrong in where he can get this survivability i'd love to know. I know that were shooting in the dark here because they showed off so little but I seriously don't see any room for him to have CC or survivability. Even more so, it sounds like they're creating a damage frame.

A warframe that can create a clone, that helps you deal damage and takes damage for you.
An ability that has scaling reflection damage
An ability that boosts your weapon damage
An exalted weapon that has built in cc, and damage.

This is the formula for a damage warframe such as Excalibur. Not a tank like Wu Kong is supposed to be in lore and in the hearts of Wu Kong players. Am I wrong? please tell me i'm wrong.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, birdobash said:

Defy wasn't even that good anywayy.

Preach. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 minutes ago, Violet_Xe said:

If i'm wrong in where he can get this survivability i'd love to know. I know that were shooting in the dark here because they showed off so little 

Exactly, we need to know more before we make the assumption that Defy doesn't provide adequate survivability.

My own rework thread in which I propose brief invulnerability periods and a taunt also included health regen and DR, could be it comes with something similar. We don't know, there's no reason to jump the gun.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The problem with DE (that persists) is that they often nerf overused abilities and buff ones that players don't use, to make things more balanced in terms of usage, not knowing that most players do not use warframes with all abilities, but rely on 1 ability for a specific task.

Obviously they slap the deluxe skin to try and revamp the warframe and reduce complaints, but at this point, a deluxe skin is a sign of bad changes.

Defy is usefull since it's an invencibility ability that costs energy, making other tank warframes more deadly overall and usefull if energy is really a concern, nerfing the ability may turn the entire warframe worthless since the task meant for it is no longer possible.

Am i happy with the changes? No

Will this change anything overall? No. Players that are efficient remain efficient, those that are inefficient will remain like that, nothing really changes since the player ultimately makes the difference, not the warframe.

My issue is that i made wukonk for a purpose (it's existance in my inventory has a reason), if the ability becomes unreliable or has other unreliable mechanics behind it, then the warframe usage will drop even more, atleast for me.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

"Although, it IS a step up from iron jab, which was completely useless outside of a niche build with the augment and glaives."

Sorry, stopped reading there already, idk what you expect from abilities in this game but it seems to me you are expecting too much and you are probably part of the reason for my biggest problem with this game, its too easy.

Sorry for getting so personal, its just really annoying reading posts of people who just advocate more and more for making the game even more casual when its already way too casual.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, ZoneDymo said:

"Although, it IS a step up from iron jab, which was completely useless outside of a niche build with the augment and glaives."

Sorry, stopped reading there already, idk what you expect from abilities in this game but it seems to me you are expecting too much and you are probably part of the reason for my biggest problem with this game, its too easy.

Sorry for getting so personal, its just really annoying reading posts of people who just advocate more and more for making the game even more casual when its already way too casual.

So what’s your arguement outside of not liking his opinion?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

So what’s your arguement outside of not liking his opinion?

 

I would think that would be self evident from the criticism, Iron Jab is a fine ability, it sends a single target flying, does good damage that is further enhanced by your melee mods.
Fight a crowd of enemies, spot the strong, for example Nox enemy, knock him away with Iron Jab and carry on.

As far as 1st abilities are concerned its a solid one, fast, strong and if not deadly at least capable of controlling the threat.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, ZoneDymo said:

 

I would think that would be self evident from the criticism, Iron Jab is a fine ability, it sends a single target flying, does good damage that is further enhanced by your melee mods.
Fight a crowd of enemies, spot the strong, for example Nox enemy, knock him away with Iron Jab and carry on.

As far as 1st abilities are concerned its a solid one, fast, strong and if not deadly at least capable of controlling the threat.

It's really not. If anything, it should be built into Primal Fury so that it can free up an ability slot.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
40 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

Exactly, we need to know more before we make the assumption that Defy doesn't provide adequate survivability.

My own rework thread in which I propose brief invulnerability periods and a taunt also included health regen and DR, could be it comes with something similar. We don't know, there's no reason to jump the gun.

The thing i'm worried about is, we have NOTHING to go on. for 40 days. No updates, no nothing. Maybe a few twitter leaks, but other than that Wu Kong's going dark in development. That's scary when it comes to feedback. It's like were talking into a void and we don't know if they're listening to us or not. Were jumping the gun now because if we don't give all the feedback we can now, this may go in the completly wrong direction that nobody is happy with. And as i've said above, he's on the path of a glass cannon DPS warframe.

I'm honestly scared for you Wu Kong players and I just want you guys to get what you want. Wish you the best of luck because I don't think DE will be showing anything till tennocon. Our only shot at making Wu Kong a better rework will be when it's launched during tennocon.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, (PS4)LoisGordils said:

It's really not. If anything, it should be built into Primal Fury so that it can free up an ability slot.

Gotta back up that statement Im afraid, I know warframes dont exist in vaquums but lets compare 1st abilities for a bit and see how they hold up.

Imo Wukong's 1st beats out: Banshee, Chroma, Ember, Frost (ish kinda similair), Loki, Mag (well tied I guess, less damage but larger crowd affacted), Nekros, Rhino (also tied), Valkyr, Volt.

And while im not entirely against the idea of it being part of Primal Fury, that does mean you have to have PF activated to use it, which would kinda go against the "wow big guy, PLONK, bye big guy" sorta playstyle it allows now.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Said everything I would've said but in a much better more precise way, bravo

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I usually don't comment on WIP stuff because there's not much of a point to it. However, in this case I just want to add:

The new Defy sounds like a rehash or at least a close relative of of Nyx' Absorb. One of Absorb's problems is that it doesn't protect you from damage that is incoming when you end it, e.g. Bombard missiles.

 

Replacing Wukong's arguably best ability -- well, let's just say I'm curious to see how this is going to pan out.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...