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(PS4)RenovaKunumaru

Wukong rework first impressions

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, (PS4)RenovaKunumaru said:

You might end up broken and cynical like me since Zephyrs rework.

I think he's already broken and cynical. Look at how long they took to finally address Wukong. Only other person I can think of who is quite as broken might be Rahetalius 😛

Edited by Xepthrichros

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Posted (edited)

Boy, I haven't posted on a forum like this in... going on five years now, maybe? Bringing back some good memories. Miss stuff like this. Less of a mess compared to something like Twitter or Tumblr, y'know?

Anyway, is it okay for a semi-casual player to drop his two cents in on the Wukong rework? I realize my word might not be as impactful as someone who number-crunches the meta or whatever, but I've put like 750 hours into the game and 90% of that was Wukong (going by my game profile anyway), so you could say I have a bit of an attachment.

(And despite calling myself semi-casual, I'm around MR14, have done plenty of sorties and finished Harrow and Sacrifice in my last few months of playing. Even though I think most high level (70+, Eidolons/Wolf/actually most bosses tbh, etc) content suffers from Blizzard Difficulty Balancing that makes it horrifically unfun to play, I've still suffered through it.)

Defy isn't as much of a problem as the rest of the community (of people who don't play Wukong or just grinded him for mastery and tossed him in the bin, I should add) likes to meme it into. I didn't even build around it personally until I reinstalled the game for the third time this past holiday season, and I was able to get through about 3/4ths of the starchart without even realizing that it was possible to utilize Defy in this way. Speaking personally, I also find myself sometimes forgetting that I have it on in the heat of the moment, which then results in me suddenly remembering it's on, turning it off, and then not having a whole lot of energy later in this mission or that. To say nothing of the fact that magnetic damage/status is basically a hard counter to its usage, given Wukong's average energy pool. God knows I learned that the hard way. Multiple times.

Speaking personally again, I've always seen Wukong as the Luigi to Excalibur's Mario (or if I want to be cheeky and play my hand, the Zero to Excalibur's X 😜). Granted, this is partly because I bought Wukong with some holiday cash back in 2016 when I first joined the game, being the first new frame I acquired after Excalibur, but I think it's worth pointing out the obvious similarities. A 1 that serves as a melee attack of sorts with an Exalted weapon. A 2 that serves as some sort of supportive de/buff - in Excal's case, a blind-stun, in Wukong's case, invincibility. A 4 which is the exalted weapon. Not to mention similar stats: Wukong trades some sprint speed for a few extra shields, but otherwise they're pretty identical. And I liked that. I still like that. If anything, making Wukong an alternate Excalibur is how they should have done this rework, I even came up with an "alternative rework" of my own to push in that direction (if anyone's interest I could post it, even if it is too little too late now).

I'm honestly baffled by the rework news because it feels like DE listened to the community who turned the frame into a meme, rather than the people who actually enjoy playing him. And the worst part is, I can see the mindset they were working with. He """fits the Wukong mythos""" better, and in some strange world he has his weird little niche of "the guy who makes clones of himself", meaning he actually fills... some sort of purpose. But given the rework doesn't solve any of his ability-synergy problems and removes the one thing that made him good, thus shooting whatever goal it was aiming for in the foot... well, it makes me want to drop the game. As if getting burnt out by grinding Nightwave wasn't hard enough.

Edited by SkyBlueFox1
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2 hours ago, birdobash said:

I don't think iron jab beats out certain ones that you say it beats out, but there are some where I agree it beats.

Taking a look at iron jab, it is a single target ragdoll, even if it scales off melee mods it's still pretty bad.

Iron jab beats:

Ember, Nekros, Valkyr, Volt, Chroma

Ember: Fireball has trash damage, and has a decently long travel time. The crowd control potential is generally on par BUT ember already has CC.

Nekros: it's just a less damaging version of iron jab, with extra ragdoll.

Valkyr: cast time is much longer and locks animation.

Volt: Bad damage and short crowd control.

Chroma: straight trash tier ability.

I wanna talk about this a bit. But these abilities have a saving grace.

Volt, his shock increases the shields damage. Looking at the ability itself isn't how you should judge an ability. it's ynergy with the kit should also be taken into account. Volt's first is better that Iron Jab.
Nekros has an incredible augment if you're in a tile and can't manage to spare the time to revive a team mate. it instantly revives someone. yes the damage sucks, however in a pinch it can be great. Yet there are better augments and nopt many nekros use the Soul Punch augment, but that being said, with the augment it allows nekros to do something to other warframe can do.
As for Chroma, ember, and valkyr, yeah iron jab beats those. those desperately need a touch up.
 

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4 hours ago, Violet_Xe said:

 

No there's always hope they will. during oberon, hydroid, and nezha, they listened to feedback and built around what the community talked about. Maybe were putting in feedback too early and they'll ignore us because he's so far into the "concept" part that feedback has little to no meaning to them, or maybe they will listen to us. We honestly can never tell with DE.

As for baruuk and Hildy, we did't get much on them probably because they had really good releases. Also the fact that not many players even had access to them. Wu Kong should be different though. He's one of the frames people have instant access too upon starting the game because of clans. I they want to better the new player experience they need to nail Wu Kong down.

They clearly didn’t go to the community for Hydroid rework ideas because he still has undertow, the one ability everyone wanted removed.

Oberon was a frame everyone agreed was good ability wise but needed to be stronger.

Nobody talked about Nezha reworks. Pablo just dropped the god tier rework on us.

there is a good percentage of the community that just buys the frame right out. So saying that “not enough people played Baruuk and Hildryn” is a flat out lie as there are more than enough people to give feedback on the frame. Heck there’s already over 200 comments on the Wisp feedback and it hasn’t even been a week since she’s been out.

And you’re mistaking “ok releases” for “really good releases”. Baruuks 4 is still embarrassingly weak when compared to the other exalted melees and Hildryn is still useless against Infested as well as her 4 being super restrictive with no benefits outside of “it Crowd Controls” and her 3 having an insanely high shield/sec cost against enemies for what’s literally just a single stagger and low damage.

 

 

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removed perma invincible... RIP Wukong. It was the best ability for him.

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Posted (edited)
29 minutes ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

there is a good percentage of the community that just buys the frame right out. So saying that “not enough people played Baruuk and Hildryn” is a flat out lie as there are more than enough people to give feedback on the frame. Heck there’s already over 200 comments on the Wisp feedback and it hasn’t even been a week since she’s been out.

 

 

I didn't lie. All I said was that there were LESS people who were able to give feedback and talk about the frame due to the heavy time gates on fortuna. time gates that killed out motivation. I'm not saying feedback is impossible or 80% of the players can't comment. I'm only saying that LESS feedback is available. Not none.

Edit: Looking back ok yes I did word that a bit poorly so sorry if you misunderstood. I did say not many, my bad. That was not my intention.

Edited by Violet_Xe
Edit:

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5 hours ago, (PS4)RenovaKunumaru said:

You might end up broken and cynical like me since Zephyrs rework.

 

4 hours ago, Xepthrichros said:

I think he's already broken and cynical. Look at how long they took to finally address Wukong. Only other person I can think of who is quite as broken might be Rahetalius 😛

Bingo, I'm very frustrated that it's taken 3 and a half years of asking for Wukong to finally get a mention.

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, SkyBlueFox1 said:

I'm honestly baffled by the rework news because it feels like DE listened to the community who turned the frame into a meme, rather than the people who actually enjoy playing him. And the worst part is, I can see the mindset they were working with. He """fits the Wukong mythos""" better, and in some strange world he has his weird little niche of "the guy who makes clones of himself", meaning he actually fills... some sort of purpose. But given the rework doesn't solve any of his ability-synergy problems and removes the one thing that made him good, thus shooting whatever goal it was aiming for in the foot... well, it makes me want to drop the game. As if getting burnt out by grinding Nightwave wasn't hard enough.

I feel the same man. Rework even hasn't come out but i already thinking of funeral. It sucks even more if you have spent some coin on a character that you fell into. I hope DE will be very careful with the changes. I'd say even that deluxe skin would be enough lol than ''clone CORE ability''

Edited by SerjRozov

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22 minutes ago, SerjRozov said:

I feel the same man. Rework even hasn't come out but i already thinking of funeral. It sucks even more if you have spent some coin on a character that you fell into. I hope DE will be very careful with the changes. I'd say even that deluxe skin would be enough lol than ''clone CORE ability''

Tossed Iron Jab out for a clone but kept the dog turd cloud walker instead of tossing it for clones lmao. Yeah not looking so good. 

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Posted (edited)

Since DE wants to keep Cloud Walker, in addition to the speed increase and crit buff, I feel they need to improve visibility so the cloud doesn't make myself blind. It is also hard to see how big the cloud is and how many enemies are affected by it due to the way it is depicted visually to the user.

It would also be nice if they add a QoL instant-cloudwalker-break into melee attack or gun shot, if I tap E to attack an enemy or click to shoot while in cloudwalker. Something like Ivara's invisibility getting broken instantly when you shoot with a noisy gun or bullet jump - on her, that's a penalty. But on Wukong, since you are probably using cloudwalker for the crit buff, you want to make use of it as soon as possible instead of having some animation lag before being able to shoot or melee again.

 

Edited by Xepthrichros
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8 minutes ago, Xepthrichros said:

Since DE wants to keep Cloud Walker, in addition to the speed increase and crit buff, I feel they need to improve visibility so the cloud doesn't make myself blind. It is also hard to see how big the cloud is and how many enemies are affected by it due to the way it is depicted visually to the user.

It would also be nice if they add a QoL instant-cloudwalker-break into melee attack or gun shot, if I tap E to attack an enemy or click to shoot while in cloudwalker. Something like Ivara's invisibility getting broken instantly when you shoot with a noisy gun or bullet jump - on her, that's a penalty. But on Wukong, since you are probably using cloudwalker for the crit buff, you want to make use of it as soon as possible instead of having some animation lag before being able to shoot or melee again.

 

that's fine it's part of the lore. but not worthy of an ability slot. Beating the dead horse but it's best a passive trait. Which says alot when Iron Jab has way more versatility in comparison when done right. Can do all they want to it, it's still a lousy ability that won't get used.

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8 hours ago, (PS4)RenovaKunumaru said:

You might end up broken and cynical like me since Zephyrs rework.

I say this with much love and humour.

Yes, Renova, because you were such a sparkling, bright-eyed boi before it...

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This is actually so sad it's funny.

First ability was trash so they give ya a clone with (most likely bad AI).
Second ability was Wukong's bread and butter so OBVIOUSLY will be nerfed - it was to be expected and, if somehow people didn't see this coming, it just means you haven't been playing for long.
Third ability will depend on the buff and how faster the cloud is.
And the Fourth has always been trash, Impact was always crap but hey, at least the stance is no longer clunky as heck.

Will this rework be good? Still early to say but so far what seems is:
- Damage wise he gets no major improvement. The stick is still impact based and I'm sure they wouldn't make the cloud's buff overpowered:
- CC is out the window, he was never a CC frame;
- Survivability was reduced according to what Reb said here 

 

Soooo... yea. All 6-7 Wukong players are probably crying afraid of ending up in the same corner as Ember and Vauban.

I'm still wondering how they made Nezha what he is (tanky, good support if needs to be, good synergy) while Wukong - the Monkey King of chinese lore gets on the backburner like this just to say they touched him a bit...

But overrall I'm just disappointed that they, as usual, kill the one thing the frame is good at and make an excuse at the other abilities to try and make up for it. It's always the same - instead of leaving what's good as is and making the other stuff reach the same level, they just nerf the good stuff while making the rest shiny and call it "balance".

Hopefully this is just an exaggeration though ... but so far I'm glad I was never much of a Wukong player to begin with.

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9 minutes ago, _Kiro said:

All 6-7 Wukong players are probably crying afraid of ending up in the same corner as Ember and Vauban.

Not really?

9 minutes ago, _Kiro said:

Damage wise he gets no major improvement

If you think he needs a damage buff, you don't know how to build him.

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12 minutes ago, _Kiro said:

This is actually so sad it's funny.

First ability was trash so they give ya a clone with (most likely bad AI).
Second ability was Wukong's bread and butter so OBVIOUSLY will be nerfed - it was to be expected and, if somehow people didn't see this coming, it just means you haven't been playing for long.
Third ability will depend on the buff and how faster the cloud is.
And the Fourth has always been trash, Impact was always crap but hey, at least the stance is no longer clunky as heck.

Will this rework be good? Still early to say but so far what seems is:
- Damage wise he gets no major improvement. The stick is still impact based and I'm sure they wouldn't make the cloud's buff overpowered:
- CC is out the window, he was never a CC frame;
- Survivability was reduced according to what Reb said here 

 

Soooo... yea. All 6-7 Wukong players are probably crying afraid of ending up in the same corner as Ember and Vauban.

I'm still wondering how they made Nezha what he is (tanky, good support if needs to be, good synergy) while Wukong - the Monkey King of chinese lore gets on the backburner like this just to say they touched him a bit...

But overrall I'm just disappointed that they, as usual, kill the one thing the frame is good at and make an excuse at the other abilities to try and make up for it. It's always the same - instead of leaving what's good as is and making the other stuff reach the same level, they just nerf the good stuff while making the rest shiny and call it "balance".

Hopefully this is just an exaggeration though ... but so far I'm glad I was never much of a Wukong player to begin with.

how they made nezha what he is. one word. Pablo.

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24 minutes ago, _Kiro said:

This is actually so sad it's funny.

First ability was trash so they give ya a clone with (most likely bad AI).
Second ability was Wukong's bread and butter so OBVIOUSLY will be nerfed - it was to be expected and, if somehow people didn't see this coming, it just means you haven't been playing for long.
Third ability will depend on the buff and how faster the cloud is.
And the Fourth has always been trash, Impact was always crap but hey, at least the stance is no longer clunky as heck.

- First abilitiy could go either way tbh. Yes DE's AI is bad but things like equinox's duality augment function basically the same as wukong's new 1 and duality is a pretty good augment

- I agree his 2 should be changed

- I doubt theres anyway for them to make his 3 good, even if it moves faster than nova teleporting you're still a cloud

- His 4 built correctly puts out high damage red crits, they also didn't change the stance just how you pull of the combos which wasnt hard in the first place 

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2 minutes ago, (PS4)Vexx757 said:

Even though I don`t have an issue with his abilities atm, they should just let DE pablo take care of him.

According to his twitter Pablo is the one doing the rework

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3 minutes ago, toyetic said:

According to his twitter Pablo is the one doing the rework

That's good to know, hopefully, he will listen to feedback and make him good. Btw what do you think of my ideas for wukong?

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Posted (edited)
58 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

If you think he needs a damage buff, you don't know how to build him.

I don't think he needs a damage buff.

I merely stated he doesn't get any noticeable damage buff with this rework, never implied he needed one.

If anything Wukong needs his Defy ability to be left alone OR given the supposed buffs from his Cloudwalker every time Defy procs, some decent Synergy and better stats on his exalted weapon. THAT would make him better but so far the only good thing this rework has done was killing his 1.

Either way this is just my opinion.

Edited by _Kiro
edited for clarity
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13 minutes ago, (PS4)Vexx757 said:

That's good to know, hopefully, he will listen to feedback and make him good. Btw what do you think of my ideas for wukong?

it's kinda eh tbh. 

Alot of ppl hate his Iron Jab, yet when i look at it can't help but sigh cause it's a good ability but how it's implemented was trash. Even more so when it didn't have a wide sweep to use on charge cast. 

Clouds in any form would feel better left to when his clones died/despawn. Them being affected by the Iron Jab/sweep would've allowed much more versatility in it. Even more so if he gets invis while in the clouds. Or jump ontop for a mobility and stealth increase. Clouds would even retain the stun on enemies in it. Beats being the cloud instead and it serves way more uses.

Cloud walker staying an ability instead of being replaced with clones and clone techs is an oof. 

Defy doesn't need anything as is except a fixed invul time, utility buffing and heavily dropping proc cap. Taunt on him makes no sense when the clones were for that.

His Stick grows massively when you do slam attacks o.e There's no real issues with how it grows otherwise. 2x combo and one or two slam attacks it gets lengthy.

I'll just link you mine in a dm or check on page 8 of this thread. 

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43 minutes ago, (PS4)chibitonka said:

His Stick grows massively when you do slam attacks o.e There's no real issues with how it grows otherwise. 2x combo and one or two slam attacks it gets lengthy.

Primal fury range caps at abt 4.5 meters which is a little bit more than what most good melee weapons start with. On top of that neither prime reach nor range mods can extend the cap. Doesn't get that lengthy.

 

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2 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

I say this with much love and humour.

Yes, Renova, because you were such a sparkling, bright-eyed boi before it...

On the contrary, I was quite the optimist and enthusiast when I started.

Sure, there were moments when I got frustrated saying the same thing over and over about why Zephyr doesn't need flight and how she isn't a helicopter (that was hilarious), but the conversation was always directed to influence, persuade, and win over others. 

Now, I could care less about the feedback loop because I know the truth. It doesn't matter. That's why I have no issue not responding to people now when they say things that just make no sense. 

I'm honestly here because I'm hoping Monkey gets the rework he's been hoping for because of hate to see him end up like me. 

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1 hour ago, (PS4)Vexx757 said:

As for Wukong, here is what I would do to add to his abilities;

Why do I even bother reporting your posts for spam... You just keep doing it anyway.

Mods please.

1 hour ago, _Kiro said:

I merely stated he doesn't get any noticeable damage buff with this rework, never implied he needed one.

You do when you bemoan impact damage's capabilities and criticise the lack of damage buffs.

That heavily implies one is needed, and saying otherwise is kinda amusing.

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33 minutes ago, toyetic said:

Primal fury range caps at abt 4.5 meters which is a little bit more than what most good melee weapons start with. On top of that neither prime reach nor range mods can extend the cap. Doesn't get that lengthy.

 

compared to that gif ofc not lmao. But saying it's short is madness.

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Just now, (PS4)chibitonka said:

compared to that gif ofc not lmao. But saying it's short is madness.

Where did I mention the gif at all lmao. It is short compared to other melee weapons. This isn't even subjective lol. It's max length is a little larger than most good melee weapons at base, some even have more. And with primed reach on - which goes on literally every good melee build - most weapons that aren't fists or sparring weapons have much more range than it 

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