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(PS4)RenovaKunumaru

Wukong rework first impressions

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11 minutes ago, JackHargreav said:

This is just the most retarded thing ever.

When we had Hyldrin ppl were freakong out.

Then Wisp came around and ppl were freakong out.

Both of them turned out to be useful and fun. And now here we go again with Wukong.

new frames. They don't have enough problems and people were likely on edge cause they didn't want another revenant. 

Bad reworks have been put out plenty of times too hence the enormous skepticism.

How dare people doubt de will give him a good rework. Not like they haven't shafted other frames with their reworks before.

Not like we play the frame all the time or anything, the hell do we know. 

  • Applause 3

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(try saying that title ten times fast... like seriously, it would be hilarious if people sent in voice clips of that)

The most recent Devstream showed of some in-progress displays of Wukong's rework. I have a few problems with it, so here are my issues and suggestions.

I will also be pulling from my last Wukong thread, while incorporating the newly show off ideas.

Last thread:

Spoiler

I obviously do not still agree with my former (foolish) notion that Wukong wasn't weak, because he only has one good ability. The rest were mediocre to downright bad.

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

First, let's go over the wacky stuff shown off in the Devstream.

1ST - Hair of the King

Spoiler

 

A clone of Wukong is created that engages in the opposite combat mode the player is in. It sounds pretty interesting, but there's one huge problem that we've learned already. This clone is AI and Warframe friendly AI is pretty terrible. Having an entire ability rely on it is basically having no ability at all. Not to mention that specters exist. Cool in concept, but the execution definitely needs to be changed... at least until AI improvements are made.

2ND - Defy

A divisive one indeed, though I am quite a fan of the direction the ability has been taken in. It's much more engaging, skillful, and fun. My problem with it is that it doesn't entirely make up for what was lost with the original Defy. A few addition effects should be thrown in. Additionally, I think that Defy should encourage more skillful play to prevent spamming and bestow a penalty upon those who mistime it or a bonus to those who time is better (more on that later).

3RD - Cloud Walker

Though I was impressed with the proposed mechanical changes to Defy, I was immediately met with disappointment with the Cloud Walker showcase. Next to no changes were made, and the suggestions from players for a complete rework of the ability was completely disregarded. Cloud Walker is still boring, out of place, and unrepresentative of the lore it was based from.

4TH - Primal Fury (Iron Staff)

Spoiler

 

I'm not a fan of the Baruuk-style meter that has been proposed at all. I understand that DE wanted to make it feel more special, but this is the wrong way to do it. It doesn't really fit with Wukong at all. Instead, it should embody the properties of the pole more. On the other hand, the combo changes and damage increases were pretty sweet, nothing more to say it.

So, this is a pretty 50/50 rework. How do we improve on it? Here are my suggestions:

_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________

While we're talking about making some Wukong changes, let's adjust his attributes to fit more in-line with his role.

Attribute Changes -

  • increase health from 300 to 450
  • decrease shields from 375 to 175
  • increase armor from 225 to 300
  • increase sprint speed from 0.95 to 1.10

And with that, a bit of a passive change...

NEW Passive -

Wukong has an additive 15% range and speed when using polearm and stuff weapons.

1ST - Hair of the King

Wukong throws out hairs to up to 6 enemies in a 20 meter cone, marking them while also rending armor. When enemies are marked, clones will appear at the target's location before performing a Primal Fury combo on them and finally fading into a cloud, temporarily blinding them.

  • a solution to the AI problem, since clones will have set actions

2ND - Defy

Though we don't have too much information on Defy, I would like to add on to what was revealed on it. Let's say that in addition to Wukong throwing out damage when timed correctly, he will also regenerate some health. Time Defy better to regenerate more health. When Defy is used when Hair of the King is active, the clones will all combine into one, shift back to Wukong's position, and absorb damage with him.

  • makes up for what was lost in health regeneration
  • rewards skillful play by granting bonuses to those who taunt with proper timing, as it could potentially leave players wide open to damage
  • suggestion: reflected damage is multiplied to account for enemy defenses

3RD - Cloud Walker

We all want Goku, we love K-Drives. We like flying. Though this could require a lot of work to make right, here's an idea...

Wukong summons down a cloud from the heavens that he can ride on to assist him in traversal and battle. Only melee weapons and the Iron Staff are available for use in this mode. When the cloud is called down, enemies with a 6 meter radius are briefly stunned with fog. Wukong's speed is increased by 50% and he also has freedom of verticality via holding down the jump button.

  • fits better into Wukong's kit, allowing for more synergy; more thematically accurate

4TH - Primal Fury

It seems as though lots of people are saying that the proposed "Baruuk-style meter" is something they don't want to see. Though we don't have the specifics, I can agree on this sentiment. Instead, how about something like this? Wukong's Primal Fury has three stages: small, medium, large. Wukong can access these stages via holding down the ability key, shifting Wukong into three different stances to indicate each stage. While charging up, Wukong is invulnerable to damage, and absorbs it to temporarily add a percentage of slash damage to the Iron Staff. The larger the Iron Staff is, the slower, but also stronger. Iron Staff has increased ground slam radius and damage.

  • more thematically accurate
  • more viable in high-level play/endgame (more slash-is-king and increased damage)
  • more CC via ground-slams

So... lemme know what you think!

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39 minutes ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

Ok technically cloudwalker is fitting for Wukongs lore, but yeah there was far more reason to remove that ability over Defy.

Well in this case, it's less of a cloud that you can fly around on and more of somehow worse than Revenant's Reave.

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1 hour ago, (PS4)thefallenloser said:

 

1ST - Hair of the King

  Reveal hidden contents

 

A clone of Wukong is created that engages in the opposite combat mode the player is in. It sounds pretty interesting, but there's one huge problem that we've learned already. This clone is AI and Warframe friendly AI is pretty terrible. Having an entire ability rely on it is basically having no ability at all. Not to mention that specters exist. Cool in concept, but the execution definitely needs to be changed... at least until AI improvements are made.

 

While it's true warframe AI has been shotty in the past there have been pretty consistent fixes to it since update 22. The AI still needs work but as of now it's possible to do long runs with both equinox's duality augment and umbra using his passive. AI by no means perfect and should continue to be worked on but in it's current state it works well enough for different augment and abilities that use AI to be worth using. 

 

1 hour ago, (PS4)thefallenloser said:

 

2ND - Defy

A divisive one indeed, though I am quite a fan of the direction the ability has been taken in. It's much more engaging, skillful, and fun. My problem with it is that it doesn't entirely make up for what was lost with the original Defy. A few addition effects should be thrown in. Additionally, I think that Defy should encourage more skillful play to prevent spamming and bestow a penalty upon those who mistime it or a bonus to those who time is better (more on that later).

 

 I agree that the direction it's being taken in is a good one and defy should be changed. However we don't know anything about defy aside from the fact it's being changed into a more "active" playstyle meaning we don't know if the new defy does or doesn't make up for what was lost with the original defy.

 

1 hour ago, (PS4)thefallenloser said:

 

3RD - Cloud Walker

Though I was impressed with the proposed mechanical changes to Defy, I was immediately met with disappointment with the Cloud Walker showcase. Next to no changes were made, and the suggestions from players for a complete rework of the ability was completely disregarded. Cloud Walker is still boring, out of place, and unrepresentative of the lore it was based from.

Again I agree that out of all of his abilities this one should've been changed but once again we saw very little of it during the devstream. As of now we know that it goes faster and gives a crit bonus. If there's any other functionality in it we don't know, on top of the fact we don't have any numbers for it's speed or crit bonus that it had. And on top of that we don't know how it will function in relation to duration or range and what it will scale off of. There's alot of question marks that I believe will need to be answered before. ( Also wukongs 72 transformations isn't really just 72 transformations as much as that's just it's name - wukong can in lore can turn his whole body aside from his tail into basically anything including clouds)

 

1 hour ago, (PS4)thefallenloser said:

4TH - Primal Fury (Iron Staff)

  Reveal hidden contents

 

I'm not a fan of the Baruuk-style meter that has been proposed at all. I understand that DE wanted to make it feel more special, but this is the wrong way to do it. It doesn't really fit with Wukong at all. Instead, it should embody the properties of the pole more. On the other hand, the combo changes and damage increases were pretty sweet, nothing more to say it.

The baruuk style meter is something I feel alot of people are misinterpreting. What was described was that his 4 will use a baruuk styled meter. Many took this to mean they're going to lock his 4 behind an arbitrary meter in the same manner baruuks 4 is. However it seems to be more along the lines of " a meter in the style of baruuks". Meaning that it will use some sort of meter as an additive bonus to his 4. As an example - If they made a meter that was tied to the increasing range of his staff rather than the combo counter it'd be a good change. You would have a visual of his max range and the meter would decay which means the range would decay - rather than the range going back down to it's minimum once the combo counter ends.

As for your changes most of them seem fine however I wanted to make a note about the change to his 3. A lot of people wanted him to fly around on his cloud but that would've likely been harder than it seems. Even though we have new open world and larger tilesets in the form of gas city, poe, and fortuna warframe is still pretty small. The majority of missions still take place in more condensed maps with tight corridors and sharp turns, something k-drives don't handle very well in. I can understand the want to have a cloud k-drive but it's likely DE also thought of that as an idea and decided against it as it's ability to handle well in most warframe maps was a big question mark.

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1 hour ago, (PS4)thefallenloser said:

NEW Passive -

Wukong has an additive 15% range and speed when using polearm and stuff weapons.

Absolutely not. You're basically tying Wukong to a weapon type. His additional combo time is way better

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3 minutes ago, (PS4)LoisGordils said:

Absolutely not. You're basically tying Wukong to a weapon type. His additional combo time is way better

Excalibur has the same type of passive, and Wukong's current one is pretty negligible.

10 minutes ago, toyetic said:

As for your changes most of them seem fine however I wanted to make a note about the change to his 3. A lot of people wanted him to fly around on his cloud but that would've likely been harder than it seems. Even though we have new open world and larger tilesets in the form of gas city, poe, and fortuna warframe is still pretty small. The majority of missions still take place in more condensed maps with tight corridors and sharp turns, something k-drives don't handle very well in. I can understand the want to have a cloud k-drive but it's likely DE also thought of that as an idea and decided against it as it's ability to handle well in most warframe maps was a big question mark.

Don't see why they'd question it considering that K-Drives can be used indoors lest you know what you're doing and DE is stuck on keeping Zephyr's Tail Wind in the state that it's in.

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5 minutes ago, (PS4)thefallenloser said:

Don't see why they'd question it considering that K-Drives can be used indoors lest you know what you're doing and DE is stuck on keeping Zephyr's Tail Wind in the state that it's in.

K-drives can be used indoors on Open World tilesets sure but A.They can't be used on normal mission nodes ( as far as i'm aware of ) and B. I don't know why you would se a K-drive in doors instead of just bullet jumping which is only slightly slower but give you much more control as to not clip on doors and ceilings and bump into random debris, Also when she was being reworked alot of people wanted zephyrs tailwind to have better functionality so they could use it more efficiently on those smaller nodes. Also also idk why someone would use Zephyr's tailwind in a small mission node

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2 hours ago, (PS4)chibitonka said:

new frames. They don't have enough problems and people were likely on edge cause they didn't want another revenant. 

Bad reworks have been put out plenty of times too hence the enormous skepticism.

How dare people doubt de will give him a good rework. Not like they haven't shafted other frames with their reworks before.

Not like we play the frame all the time or anything, the hell do we know. 

I totally understand if someone is skeptic. That is not the problem.

The problem is the kind of ppl who just automatically freak out whenever we get something new. I fail to see the reason of calling something totally awful garbage when we didn't even see that thing in it's almost fully developed stage.

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The issue with wukongs 1 is that when your whole melee - gun swap being a major selling point to the recent additions, forcing the clone to swap regardless of what its doing simply stops it from attacking even longer than it otherwise might have done. Why not something simple like recast swaps places with your clone, or recasting sends the clone to attack your target.

Defy i dont really have an opinion on, will have to see how effective the taunt is. 

Cloudwalker needs to do something more than remove you from combat. It cant even float you through laser gates without alerting enemies in spys even though youre just a cloud. Maybe it can slow or blind enemies currently in the radius, maybe the clone can still run around while youre clouded.. Something to make it worth using more than an escape. Even heals over time would be nice inside it. 

And now for the 4. Im never going to touch this ability again if it gets the baruch charge up bar. Whats the point of being the monkey king if you cant use your staff. If anything it needs those stupid slams removed from the combos and get more sweeps so you have some aoe in your kit. Youll be getting your energy drained, you should be able to hit more targets than in a 2m radius like the slams seem to have, especially if you have a giant staff.

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On 2019-05-29 at 3:09 PM, Teridax68 said:

so why not just use your cloud to get ahead of the competition, then kill people? I fail to see the issue here.

It's a poor movement ability but if it copies wil-o-wisp I can't say if it will be that bad cloud walker isn't bad as an invulnerablility power but for movement speed it lacking greatly and yes you can use for stealth there are just better options that you always have.

 

On 2019-05-29 at 3:09 PM, Teridax68 said:

Wait, so Nidus's 1 augment didn't make him a DPS frame... because he's already a DPS frame? What? How does this prove that Wukong won't be a frame capable of dealing good damage

It didn't make him a better one because he was already good and doesn't struggle unlike Wukong this will be innately in wukong's kit a move that isn't that prioritized. 

 

On 2019-05-29 at 3:09 PM, Teridax68 said:

Wait, so literally all stealth frames are poor design now just because one can just parkour or go into Operator mode? What? How is Wukong's stealth bad when he gets 3-dimensional movement on top of invisibility and the stun? Sure, it's a drain, but then so is Defy, and Defy doesn't look like it's going to remain a drain effect.

Wait when did I say all stealth frames are bad? Don't blow things out of proportion all stealth frames except Wukong can use parkour while invisible,  parkour, can use operator mode for brief scouting, innately faster and can stealth for as long as they need without breaking invisibility. Yeah but stealth frames usually have cheaper energy cost and defy was a way to multiply his energy which will be counter intuitive for stealth.

 

On 2019-05-29 at 3:09 PM, Teridax68 said:

Isn't the new Defy also supposed to make him durable, though? Or did I watch the wrong dev stream?

Yes on a duration. which we don't know how effectively it will be as a whole, also they said it as if it was a negative change so we can do nothing but speculate if it's a buff or nerf.

On 2019-05-29 at 3:09 PM, Teridax68 said:

If the only reason Defy has a reason to stay in Wukong's kit is because of its name and function as a durability steroid, then literally any ability with those same two characteristics would be just as valid, including the new Defy. Also, how exactly would gratuitious buffs on self-heal fix an ability that's the clearest case in the game of power without gameplay?

I'm not saying it needs to stay just cause it's a steroid, it needs to stay because it's the core of his kit and without it Wukong would fall apart. The new defy sounds fine but what about his energy management, his survivability is it CC and damage or just damage, damage reduction, healing we've heard nothing so you can only assume positive or negatively. And the healing is 75% until refreshed so giving a buff to teammates doesn't sound that bad I can elaborate more if you want.

 

On 2019-05-29 at 3:09 PM, Teridax68 said:

Except Archwing can only be used in Archwing missions and two other maps? Most missions you won't have Archwing, yet you'll still be able to use Cloud Walker, and the fact that it enables flight means you're going to be reaching certain locations faster than people using parkour, especially with bonus movement speed.

Yeah you'll move faster than frames not built for speed but are you going to better Volt, Sayrn, Octavia, Ivara, Nezha, Ash, Zephyr, Loki, Nova, and Titania some of these are already decently fast but some just outclass Wukong entirely.

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Posted (edited)
On 2019-05-29 at 3:09 PM, Teridax68 said:

 

 

On 2019-05-29 at 3:09 PM, Teridax68 said:

 

 

On 2019-05-29 at 3:09 PM, Teridax68 said:

 

 

On 2019-05-29 at 3:09 PM, Teridax68 said:

 

 

 

On 2019-05-29 at 3:09 PM, Teridax68 said:

 

 

On 2019-05-29 at 3:09 PM, Teridax68 said:

 

blockquote widg

Edited by (PS4)sonicizanagi
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Posted (edited)
On 2019-05-29 at 3:09 PM, Teridax68 said:

 

 

On 2019-05-29 at 3:09 PM, Teridax68 said:

 

 

 

On 2019-05-29 at 3:09 PM, Teridax68 said:

 

 

 

On 2019-05-29 at 3:09 PM, Teridax68 said:

 

 

 

On 2019-05-29 at 3:09 PM, Teridax68 said:

 

 

 

On 2019-05-29 at 3:09 PM, Teridax68 said:

 

 

Edited by (PS4)sonicizanagi
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Posted (edited)

 

On 2019-05-29 at 3:09 PM, Teridax68 said:

 

 

On 2019-05-29 at 3:09 PM, Teridax68 said:

 

 

On 2019-05-29 at 3:09 PM, Teridax68 said:

 

 

On 2019-05-29 at 3:09 PM, Teridax68 said:



 

On 2019-05-29 at 3:09 PM, Teridax68 said:

 

 

On 2019-05-29 at 3:09 PM, Teridax68 said:
  •  

 

Edited by (PS4)sonicizanagi
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On 2019-05-29 at 3:09 PM, Teridax68 said:

You spent money on him... only to loudly proclaim that you literally only care about Defy, the most boring part of his kit, and want the rest to be changed to something entirely different that only you personally approve of. It's also why you've chosen to pre-emptively trash any actual attempt to bring him to a better spot, and favored the status quo while in full knowledge that Wukong is not in a good spot now. In other words, you would rather see Wukong stay in a terrible state than allow even the possibility of him improving for the better, and so because you don't actually care about the frame, you only care about Defy. Many frames are easy, but only few frames are essentially incapable of dying, with Wukong being one of them: the fact that you focus so much on the ability behind this, and place particular emphasis on how it lets Wukong cheat death, speaks volumes. Meanwhile, I suggest that we should perhaps give this rework a chance before declaring it unworkably bad, just in case it improves Wukong, yet apparently this means I "do not care" about him. Interesting

Actually that is quite wrong I have looked at over around 17 rework ideas including yours that have kept in cloud walker and managed to have it synergize with the kit and liked them unlike the current WIP we are seeing now. I'm all for waiting to see how frames are when they are revealed but this frame is pretty crucial idk if Pablo is working on this frame. But I don't need him getting worse, frames who have high popularity have received reworks that literally make them shells of there former selves and that could outright kill Wukong if they put him on the back burner.

On 2019-05-29 at 3:09 PM, Teridax68 said:

But how can you make any of these judgments? Even right now, you are admitting that you are only basing this on conjecture and hearsay: why should anyone take you seriously, then, if you're acting this offended when you don't even know half the facts? How exactly do you expect to convince anyone at all if the only way of doing so is for them to invent a whole bunch of things unsupported by fact or reality? You're allowed to not like the rework, but exclaiming that it's a nerf, when you don't even know the numbers on the new abilities, is ridiculous, and discredits your entire position

Because my argument is focusing on the negative, instead of your defending of the positive so even if I do say cloud walker is a poor ability to say that it will be positive is very much the same argument yes cloud walker is going to get a movement speed buff but is it modable? Yes defy is getting taken off of toggle and is much more interesting and interactive but is it good enough? Defending something is nice but when you can't provide concrete evidence that it's an overall upgrade, your doing the same as me just in a positive light.

 

On 2019-05-29 at 3:09 PM, Teridax68 said:

So because Rebecca didn't specifically mention scaled attack or defense... you're just going to assume that it has neither? Interesting. Also, how are free status procs weak in any respect?

Yes because assuming it's going to have scaling means it's going to have scaling. If that were true not even half of these reworks would be necessary. Also it's WIP which means anything can happen. Free status isn't weak but when that's all it does for now, it could use some improvements

 

On 2019-05-29 at 3:09 PM, Teridax68 said:

It's not "really that impressive"... why? Is it not impressive to swing around two massive staves at once? Also, how in the blazes is this "contradictory to his kit and lore"? How does it contradict what I've said before? It feels like "lore" is just this vague excuse you throw out for anything about the new Wukong that you don't like, irrespective of how it actually relates to the story of Sun Wukong.

No it's really not the combos don't really impress me. They have said anything about range or damage and it being locked behind a meter Is border line boring much like a moba timer. If it provides buffs while in different thresholds I'll be more excited but being modeled after Barruk means restraint or restrictions which is counter intuitive to playing as someone who is know for being impulsive. and the whole lore thing is why people like Sun Wukong in the first place and why they even played Wukong, if you tied that meter to the crown on his head people wouldn't complain.

 

On 2019-05-29 at 3:09 PM, Teridax68 said:

And this improvement is bad, because...

It's not bad it's just something that we've been waiting for awhile, And it gets rushed out partly for Wukong there was nothing negative about this mentioning.

 

On 2019-05-29 at 3:09 PM, Teridax68 said:

So are you or are you not accusing me of not caring about Wukong, then? Because I too have participated in the threads here, given feedback on the proposals, and unambiguously supported a Wukong rework to let him do far more than he can do now, and become more interesting in so doing. He may not be my main frame, but I do care about him and want him to improve drastically, as he has a ton of potential that has yet to be fulfilled.

If you really want to see my take on Wukong, off the top of my head:

  • Passive - Stone Landing: For every second Wukong is off the ground, he gains 10% increased damage while on the ground, dissipating after 5 seconds unless he leaves the ground again.
  • 1 - Hair of the King: Wukong summons a clone of himself with his health, armor and shields, and the weapon opposite his with 50 / 100 / 150 / 200% bonus weapon damage, which he can direct by tapping the ability at an enemy or location, and lasts 15 / 20 / 25 / 30 seconds. Wukong can also target his clone directly or hold-cast to swap places with it at any time. Costs 25 Energy.
  • 2 - Defy: Wukong forces all enemies within 20 meters to direct their attention towards himself and his clone, while both become immune to all damage for 3 seconds. After the end of the duration, he and his clone gain bonus armor equal to 150 / 200 / 250 / 300% of the absorbed damage. Reactivate the ability to turn Wukong and his clone to stone, causing both to drop to the ground, become immune to all damage and crowd control on the way down, and throwing all enemies within 10 meters vertically into the air, while dealing Impact damage equal to the bonus armor (consuming it in the process) and 5000% of the fall distance. Cost 50 Energy.
  • 3 - Cloud Walker: Wukong and his clone transform into an untargetable and invisible cloud that can fly at 125 / 150 / 175 / 200% movement speed, draining 5 Energy per second while doing so. Attacking or using another ability ends Cloud Walker's effects immediately. Activating or deactivating the ability stuns enemies within 10 meters for 5 seconds, opening them up to melee finishers, and passing through enemies while in the cloud does the same.
  • 4 - Primal Fury: Wukong draws his Iron Staff, draining 3 Energy per second. For every accumulated second of Stone Landing, the Staff's size and range are increased by 5 / 10 / 15 / 20%.

I really do like your proposed kit and how it improves on abilities already shown In the devstream greatly I'll find mine and show you later on today. 

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12 hours ago, (PS4)sonicizanagi said:

It's a poor movement ability but if it copies wil-o-wisp I can't say if it will be that bad cloud walker isn't bad as an invulnerablility power but for movement speed it lacking greatly and yes you can use for stealth there are just better options that you always have.

But Cloud Walker does in fact provide invulnerability, and the only reason its mobility is bad now is because it slows Wukong. If it were to increase his movement speed instead, which is apparently what's going to happen, that would solve its problems. How then does one have better stealth options if Void Mode also slows you down?

12 hours ago, (PS4)sonicizanagi said:

It didn't make him a better one because he was already good and doesn't struggle unlike Wukong this will be innately in wukong's kit a move that isn't that prioritized. 

So, in other words... this has strictly nothing to do with Wukong, because unlike Nidus, Wukong's damage currently isn't great? In that case, why even bring up Nidus? Wouldn't a frame with poor baseline damage benefit more from a lump increase in damage than one who's already good enough at it?

12 hours ago, (PS4)sonicizanagi said:

Wait when did I say all stealth frames are bad? Don't blow things out of proportion all stealth frames except Wukong can use parkour while invisible,  parkour, can use operator mode for brief scouting, innately faster and can stealth for as long as they need without breaking invisibility. Yeah but stealth frames usually have cheaper energy cost and defy was a way to multiply his energy which will be counter intuitive for stealth.

Except the argument you made, i.e. that Wukong's stealth is bad just because Void Mode exists, can be made for any stealth frame, hence me pointing our your argument makes no sense. Loki can parkour while invisible, Ivara is reduced to walking (and reveals herself while shooting with non-silenced guns), meanwhile Wukong can fly around. For sure, he has a bigger drain, which should hopefully become less of a problem if he gets his Defy drain removed and his 4 switched to a Restraint-like resource (or, more simply, if the drain gets reduced), and even less so if the ability itself gets more movement speed. 

12 hours ago, (PS4)sonicizanagi said:

Yes on a duration. which we don't know how effectively it will be as a whole, also they said it as if it was a negative change so we can do nothing but speculate if it's a buff or nerf.

... so then why speculate it as a hard nerf? Because that is what I'm criticizing here: in an environment where you cannot know whether a new ability will be more or less powerful than its predecessor, you immediately jumped to the conclusion that the ability wouldn't simply be a nerf, but would be such a bad nerf that Wukong would somehow find himself in a worse state than before. This isn't even pessimism, this is pure delusion at this stage. Meanwhile, my point is simply that this new ability is likely to have more gameplay than the old Defy, regardless of whether it's a buff or nerf.

12 hours ago, (PS4)sonicizanagi said:

I'm not saying it needs to stay just cause it's a steroid, it needs to stay because it's the core of his kit and without it Wukong would fall apart.

... how? Why?

12 hours ago, (PS4)sonicizanagi said:

The new defy sounds fine but what about his energy management, his survivability is it CC and damage or just damage, damage reduction, healing we've heard nothing so you can only assume positive or negatively. And the healing is 75% until refreshed so giving a buff to teammates doesn't sound that bad I can elaborate more if you want.

Did the dev stream not mention that it at least featured a taunt, damage mitigation, and damage? All of that sounds pretty conducive to a tanky ability to me. Moreover, the fact that it's an activateable, rather than a drain ability, means Wukong would have even fewer problems managing his Energy.

12 hours ago, (PS4)sonicizanagi said:

Yeah you'll move faster than frames not built for speed but are you going to better Volt, Sayrn, Octavia, Ivara, Nezha, Ash, Zephyr, Loki, Nova, and Titania some of these are already decently fast but some just outclass Wukong entirely.

... right now, certainly, because Cloud Walker slows Wukong instead of speeding him up, which the new Cloud Walker is apparently slated to do (and even then, he can travel much faster through vertical terrain than Saryn, Octavia, Ivara, or Ash). Not even Titania gets a speed boost when in her own Archwing mode, so given the right amount, he could in fact become quite fast. Moreover... why exactly are you even comparing Wukong's traversal to frames with abilities exclusively designed for fast movement, e.g. Volt, Zephyr or Nova? Just because Wukong isn't better than everyone else at literally everything, or slated to be, doesn't mean his rework is doomed to failure.

11 hours ago, (PS4)sonicizanagi said:

Actually that is quite wrong I have looked at over around 17 rework ideas including yours that have kept in cloud walker and managed to have it synergize with the kit and liked them unlike the current WIP we are seeing now. I'm all for waiting to see how frames are when they are revealed but this frame is pretty crucial idk if Pablo is working on this frame. But I don't need him getting worse, frames who have high popularity have received reworks that literally make them shells of there former selves and that could outright kill Wukong if they put him on the back burner.

... but then if you've seen reworks that kept Cloud Walker and worked, why rag on the proposed rework that seems to do the same? Also, again, why fear the worst? I can agree that certain frames received some rather unhelpful reworks, e.g. Hydroid, or reworks that made them worse (e.g. Ember, though DE also thought she needed a nerf for some reason), but again, this is the sort of thing one can only really judge with specifics, or at least ideas that truly stand out as bad without needing to know the implementational details.

11 hours ago, (PS4)sonicizanagi said:

Because my argument is focusing on the negative, instead of your defending of the positive so even if I do say cloud walker is a poor ability to say that it will be positive is very much the same argument yes cloud walker is going to get a movement speed buff but is it modable? Yes defy is getting taken off of toggle and is much more interesting and interactive but is it good enough? Defending something is nice but when you can't provide concrete evidence that it's an overall upgrade, your doing the same as me just in a positive light.

But I'm not assuming the best, I'm simply saying that DE explicitly stated an intention to buff several of Wukong's abilities and add effects that I've stated. I do not need to know the exact numbers to tell you that DE is promising that Wukong will have a speed bonus on Cloud Walker, because that's what they've said. To act like DE wants to nerf Wukong, when they explicitly stated the contrary, therefore comes across as in monumentally poor faith, and to act like you know what this new Wukong's numbers are when you clearly don't itself undermines your entire argument, which requires information you don't have in order to be valid. Again, I'm not the one here stating specifics and relying on them, my point is simply that the broad lines of Wukong's rework seem good, so that even if his numbers do turn out to be weak, those could at least be buffed to make him a better frame than before.

Like I said far earlier in this conversation, I'm sick and tired of forum-dwellers focusing far too much on their (usually wrong) impressions of how a frame rework will change that frame's power, as opposed to their gameplay: in this respect, your posts have been one of the most clear-cut examples of why this kind of mentality is wrong, because despite your claims to care for Wukong, you don't seem to care at all for the design improvements DE is suggesting, and instead appear to only want Wukong to be made a statistically stronger version of what he is now. This is after the Saryn and Nezha reworks, both of which a handful of vocal players preemptively screamed at because they thought they'd nerf the frames, and both of which turned out immensely successful. If you want to give proper feedback, perhaps you shouldn't focus so much on your perceptions of whether the new Wukong will be statistically weaker or stronger based on some imaginary numbers, because that's a silly and pointless line of argumentation that just makes you look hopelessly biased from the get-go. Instead, try commenting on the actual gameplay DE is working on, ideally with a little bit of perspective gathered from comparisons to other live in-game features (e.g. Hair of the King vs. Duality) or prior Warframe history (e.g. the Nezha rework).

11 hours ago, (PS4)sonicizanagi said:

Yes because assuming it's going to have scaling means it's going to have scaling. If that were true not even half of these reworks would be necessary. Also it's WIP which means anything can happen.

And this relates to your point... how, exactly? Again, I asked you why you believed that Wukong's abilities wouldn't scale simply because Rebecca didn't explicitly list every stat that scaled, and which stat it scaled with, with every ability presented in the broad-lines overview. The fact remains that you are basing your judgment off of a whole bunch of ridiculous assumptions and guesses that make it look like you're just looking for excuses to bash any concrete Wukong rework DE would try to implement.

11 hours ago, (PS4)sonicizanagi said:

Free status isn't weak but when that's all it does for now, it could use some improvements

... for now? The ability isn't even released yet, so how exactly do you get to pretend it's live already? Again, look at Equinox's Duality, and how strong enough it is for her players to equip it for not just status, but also damage.

11 hours ago, (PS4)sonicizanagi said:

No it's really not the combos don't really impress me.

Just because they don't impress you doesn't mean they aren't impressive to literally everyone else. As it stands, the new combos seem to have been rather positively received.

11 hours ago, (PS4)sonicizanagi said:

They have said anything about range or damage and it being locked behind a meter Is border line boring much like a moba timer.

Did they not explicitly say that the ability would have its damage buffed? Also, how is it boring, let alone more boring than a big stick you can have on at literally all times, and that therefore has to be balanced around 100% uptime? You seem to be missing the fact here that preventing abilities from having 100% uptime means they can be allowed to be legitimately stronger when they do get used, and get to work better as big-ticket abilities for special situations, rather than yet another steroid to have around at all times.

11 hours ago, (PS4)sonicizanagi said:

If it provides buffs while in different thresholds I'll be more excited but being modeled after Barruk means restraint or restrictions which is counter intuitive to playing as someone who is know for being impulsive.

... and whose entire story leads him to learn the value of restraint and self-control, to the point where he eventually attains Buddhahood. Rather in tune with his lore, then, wouldn't you think?

11 hours ago, (PS4)sonicizanagi said:

and the whole lore thing is why people like Sun Wukong in the first place and why they even played Wukong, if you tied that meter to the crown on his head people wouldn't complain.

Indeed, so why are you complaining?

11 hours ago, (PS4)sonicizanagi said:

It's not bad it's just something that we've been waiting for awhile, And it gets rushed out partly for Wukong there was nothing negative about this mentioning.

So it's not bad, then? In which case, why complain about it? Do you honestly believe you are being productive if you reaction to DE making meaningful improvements to a frame you claim to like is to continue to dismiss them as if the improvement were itself a detriment?

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3 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

How then does one have better stealth options if Void Mode also slows you down?

Not when you dash, let's be real. You aren't going to be needing to stealth for tile after tile, you need it in short bursts which Void dashes provide in a short amount of time.

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21 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

Not when you dash, let's be real. You aren't going to be needing to stealth for tile after tile, you need it in short bursts which Void dashes provide in a short amount of time.

Just remember to take off the zappy energy ball from Zenurik... it isn't exactly conducive for stealth in my experience...

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11 minutes ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Just remember to take off the zappy energy ball from Zenurik... it isn't exactly conducive for stealth in my experience...

Don't even have it. 95% of my points are in Unairu and Naramon. 

Zenuirk doesn't really benefit Wukong, I only have the energy bubble bit for occasional forays into other frames.

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I feel it would be cool if cloudwalker was replaced with a channel ability that allows him to transform into different animals based on his 72 transformation ability from his lore. Could select 4 of the coolest ones, allow for him to cycle between them and make it that each form has a unique aspect and specializes in certain ways (tanky, fast, high damage output, etc). 

Recently thought of this after see kotal kahn from mortal kombat 11 with his tiger form. 

Other than that, maybe give him a passive that uses the monkey aspect? I don't know.....

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, DeMonkey said:

Not when you dash, let's be real. You aren't going to be needing to stealth for tile after tile, you need it in short bursts which Void dashes provide in a short amount of time.

I mean, stealth in general isn't really used frequently in the current state of Warframe, but when it is, it's generally for Spy vaults, whose platforming puzzles means attempting to Void Dash through will more likely than not trigger the alarm due to how rigid the move is. Without the self-slow, and perhaps fewer energy drains, Cloud Walker could legitimately allow Wukong to traverse properly unseen.

Edited by Teridax68

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43 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

I mean, stealth in general isn't really used frequently in the current state of Warframe, but when it is, it's generally for Spy vaults, whose platforming puzzles means attempting to Void Dash through will more likely than not trigger the alarm due to how rigid the move is. Without the self-slow, and perhaps fewer energy drains, Cloud Walker could legitimately allow Wukong to traverse properly unseen.

Not sure I've found the same issue with spy vaults personally.

Remains to be seen how useful Cloudwalker will be. Too early to say it'll be good for Spy Vaults.

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My opinion on the Rework:

1 - His 1 being replaced, I'm happy about it. I'm interested on how the clone will perform, hope it's as good as Equinox's 1 augment or better.

2 - His 2 being changed, all I can remember from this backlash is when Nezha's ring got changed from a immunity to a DR. Poeple hate it, now people worship Pablo because of that Rework. Pablo is working on Wukong too, and people are reacting the same way. In my eye Defy should be ALSO replaced for a more active/fun thing. But who knows? Taunt and retaliate, all I can think off is Harrow's 4 with taunt effect.

3 - My reaction to that is the same as Hydroid's puddle (before and after rework) and Zephyr. "Ok.... but why?". Hydroid's puddle get a small pass because it works wonderfully with his 1 augment, but aside from that... Why? Why should stop to do such a thing? Why should I stop moving, or attacking to... do that? Zephyr hover have literally no use, it's just there. Hydroid's puddle if just plain boring, but effective with 1 augment, but I cannot see why cloud would be useful unless it synergies with the clone....
 

4 - Having Baruuk mechanic can be promising, unless, just like Baruuk, it's more beneficial to NOT fully use that mechanic, shifting the problems on his 4. But I'm looking forward to it.

 

Overall, I think it's gonna be a decent rework.

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Hair of the King fits nicely actually and comes straight from established lore. So kudos for that.

With regard to lore, I'm actually a bit surprised that DE hasn't considered giving him the ability to summon protective circles, although I can kind of understand leaving out his ability to freeze enemies.

His rework sounds interesting enough for me to want to actually consider picking him up, but...

11 minutes ago, (NSW)Kokojo said:

...now people worship Pablo because of that Rework. Pablo is working on Wukong too, and people are reacting the same way.

Yeah, just a reminder that this is the same "amazing" Pablo that gave us Saryn the Nuker *slow clap*  People only worship Pablo because he's allow some of us to wrack up ridiculous kill counts at the expense of the rest of the squad.

Hey Pablo! Co-op play is a thing! It means cooperating and playing well with others!

Yes, I'm extremely wary of him working on Wukong - and Vauban for that matter. I fear he'll either trivialize everything in sight or be just as mediocre as before, but in a different and more convoluted way...and still not play well with others / benefit groups.

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