Wukong rework first impressions

[(NSW)Kokojo]

2 hours ago, MirageKnight said:

Fair, but I feel like more often than not he fails to take other players into consideration when brainstorming and tinkering. He also strikes me as being a bit of a troll at times when it comes to him dealing with players.

Also, he's a UI guy. What's a UI guy doing working on a Warframe's abilities? Don't they have people to do that very job?

Hey, i'm not here to talk bad about Pablo. The guy does a amazing job on what he does and if he's capable in doing the UI and those good Warframes/Reworks so far (You can't deny that his stuff works) then that's very good.

If you didn't notice, new Warframes are less straightforward and more well rounded.

See Ash. Ash kill stuff, Ash is very very good at killing stuff, but he can't do much aside from that. Now look at Wisp, she has damage, tank, support, CC. For the current state of the game, a Warframe with only a single job has very little use.

Edited May 31, 2019 by (NSW)Kokojo

[(NSW)Kokojo]

On 2019-05-30 at 11:36 AM, (PS4)thefallenloser said:

Excalibur has the same type of passive, and Wukong's current one is pretty negligible.

Excalibur passive works on BLADES, so Swords, Dual Swords, Nikanas and Rapiers are all open to his passive, while the one it's being presented to Wukong is just for POLEARMS, and there are not many good ones in-game. All I can compare this passive too is Revenant and Nova, where it's essentially the same thing, but with different pre-requisites (Nova being knockdown and Revenant once his shields runs out).

[toyetic]

29 minutes ago, (NSW)Kokojo said:

Excalibur passive works on BLADES, so Swords, Dual Swords, Nikanas and Rapiers are all open to his passive, while the one it's being presented to Wukong is just for POLEARMS, and there are not many good ones in-game. All I can compare this passive too is Revenant and Nova, where it's essentially the same thing, but with different pre-requisites (Nova being knockdown and Revenant once his shields runs out).

I think op meant its the same in that he gets a bonus for using a specific type of weapon. Also the one presented was for polearms and staffs. And theres a good amount of polearms ( tipedo prime, orthos prime) and staffs( most zaw staffs)

[(PSN)FriendSharkey]

I just want Cloudwalker to pass through laser traps in spy vaults like Ivara and Limbo..or at least a syndicate mod that will allow it to do so....Also the buff coming out of it..if that can be on par with Chroma on a Eidolon Hunt then it would be for once helpful, DE...

[UltraLYT]

DE,

Removing invincibility from Wukong is like removing invisibility from Ivara, both are non-interactive and so-called 'permanent'. 

Both frames essentially rely on these abilities for specific tasks.  People who do not like those abilities simply do not or rarely use those frames.

This is beyond outrage to remove the core ability that players who do use successfully for specific tasks.  One the day you remove the core ability from those warframes, you will be infuriating a developed player base, what is the point of do that?

If you want to make the core ability more interesting, isn't it more logical to improve the tried-and-true ability, make it even better, instead of outright destroying it?!

 

 

[MirageKnight]

3 hours ago, Violet_Xe said:

Well for 1 DE is a small company so they need to switch people around ALOT probably. 

Last I heard mentioned, they had 264 employees but that was several months ago. That's not exactly "small".

https://www.glassdoor.com/Overview/Working-at-Digital-Extremes-EI_IE238612.11,27.htm

Looking at those figures and considering the support they have from their owners, they can afford to hire someone that can help out in terms of making Steve's and Scott's intentions and visions real and balanced.

3 hours ago, Violet_Xe said:

But now it almost feels like it's a requirement to have at least 2 classes always present in a Kit. Pablo does this with alot of his reworks. 

That's part of the problem: Class synergy and whether those classes fit the Frame's theme properly or not.

1 hour ago, (NSW)Kokojo said:

The guy does a amazing job on what he does and if he's capable in doing the UI and those good Warframes/Reworks so far (You can't deny that his stuff works) then that's very good.

That's a matter of opinion. Some of the recent UI work that's been pushed has arguably been a step backwards in terms of usability. See Relics.

Yes, his UI stuff works (in that it functions) and looks nice, I won't deny that. But that's all the good I can honestly say about it. 

1 hour ago, (NSW)Kokojo said:

If you didn't notice, new Warframes are less straightforward and more well rounded.

I did notice...but do you have any proof that the ability kits for Garuda, Revenant, Hildryn, and Wisp were Pablo's responsibility? Because (thanks to the dev streams I may add) I was under the very distinct impression that those were Scott's creations. If so, Scott's the reason those Frames are well rounded, not Pablo.

And to be honest, Scott is fairly consistent with regard to coming up with fairly well-rounded ability sets. He strikes me as being more conservative in his approach to things - while Steve tends to push boundaries hard - but that's not necessarily a bad thing.

 

 

 

[Violet_Xe]

2 minutes ago, MirageKnight said:

Last I heard mentioned, they had 264 employees but that was several months ago. That's not exactly "small".

https://www.glassdoor.com/Overview/Working-at-Digital-Extremes-EI_IE238612.11,27.htm

Looking at those figures and considering the support they have from their owners, they can afford to hire someone that can help out in terms of making Steve's and Scott's intentions and visions real and balanced.

About this, yes 264 employees is a super big number... for us. However lets remember that large companies have a difficult time creating content, granted they're lazy and lax and could be making way more, but lets compare strictly numbers. Blizzard lays off 800 employees... thats... alot. Yes DE has more people than we can imagine working on Warframe, but even if we take into account that they work themselves to the bone and say ok 1 DE employee is worth 3 normal employees, that still only just comes close to what blizzard layed off. They have a very limited amount of people to work with, especially if we have these departments where people work. You're bound to have to switch developers in and out of their specializations in order to complete content on time.

Look i'm just saying that DE doesn't actually count as a large company despite being a really popular game.Riot, the developer company of LoL has over 2000 employees. 2000. Thats a ton of people. DE is small compared to them and yet warframe is so popular it's starting to get up there in popularity fighting it off with Destiny. Bungie has around 700 employees. DE has half the team they do and produce content. You NEED to rotate people in and out, you NEED to have employees that can do multiple tasks. It's how warframe has survived so long.

Pablo in specific has grown somewhat popular because he undertook a few reworks and came up with functionality for some warframes like Nidus. These warframes and reworks were very well revived *despite saryn being the most OP thing since Telos Boltace 1.0*. I don't like some of his reworks, but what he does he did because he was taken off the UI team to work on this stuff. In larger companies you won't see this as often because they've got the resources. DE doesn't... That's why Pablo is... on the rework team ok why are we talking about Pablo in the wukong chat again? 😕 Ok to keep this relevant to Wu Kong. this.

I agree with you, i don't want Pablo touching Wu Kong. It's just that i'd rather have a Pablo style rework, then an ember nerf fest. Or a you can charge your balls "rework". Right?

[DeMonkey]

2 hours ago, modalmojo said:

People who do not like those abilities simply do not or rarely use those frames.

Of course. Silly me.

I hate Defy not for the logical conclusion that it's worthless to the game DE have created, but because I don't actually play Wukong. Why didn't I see it.

[(PSN)AyinDygra]

My take on the proposed rework, based on the devstream descriptions of how it works out...

The clone seems... iffy, from my experience with AI partners. Multiple clones sounds better. (2+) The whole tag-team you shoot while I melee aspect is "interesting" and potentially useful. The suggestion in this thread to allow "marking" enemies somehow to force the clone to perform a synchronous attack along with you on the same target at the same time, has potential - this removes the reliance on AI aspect, and gives more control to the player.

The Defy change seems like (from the tone of how it was introduced - we're nerfing this, but we're making everything else stronger, so don't worry?) it's ripping away the one thing the casual Wukong players enjoy using from his kit (and it's quite limited in usefulness depending on builds and enemy situations - leech eximus, nightmare mods, nullifiers, etc). Personally, I'd just give Defy a different requirement to prevent death than just having energy to maintain Defy: Use once to put up the buff, only if a clone is currently alive (or mark the clone with Defy). Now, IF a(the) clone is alive when you would take fatal damage, you immediately switch places with a(the) living clone and the clone takes the hit instead of you and disappears. (sorta like a Trinity or Nidus link)

Cloudwalker is actually one of the abilities I use frequently on Wukong, as I like to do Spy Vaults to level my weapons, instead of Hydron or ESO farming. Moving faster in the cloud will be quite nice. Would also be nice if enveloping an enemy in the cloud would also reset their alertness to unalert. With this change, you could cloudwalk/dash through a few enemies, then "finisher" your way back through them, or simply move along without having been noticed, all trickster-like. If he could pick up party members and pull them along with him in his cloud, even better (allowing them to dodge-roll out of it at any time).

I really hope they adjust the opacity of the cloud, though... it feels more like a smokescreen debuff enemies would place on you in racing games.

Secondarily, the suggestion to have a (void)cloud-like K-drive would be a great thing for him in open world areas.

Primal Fury... I don't have any comment on. Too many changes with the melee system and combos and the combo counter to really suggest anything at this point in time.

 

 

[seprent]

1 hour ago, DeMonkey said:

Of course. Silly me.

I hate Defy not for the logical conclusion that it's worthless to the game DE have created, but because I don't actually play Wukong. Why didn't I see it.

i had too

defy is neat but i agree boring as long as you have some form of energy restore your absolutely invincible since to turn it on and off is pretty quick but i cannot speak much on it i dont play wukong he too boring for my taste for how easy he can turn off the concept of damage = risk of death

honestly surprised people dont meta use him since its turn defy on grab nothing can kill you get your uber riven weapon and just stomp oh and then come to the forums and ask for a challenge to meet your power 

most fun i got out of him was making a build for his one and his augment pogo man not very strong but pretty entertaining 

[MirageKnight]

4 hours ago, Violet_Xe said:

I agree with you, i don't want Pablo touching Wu Kong. It's just that i'd rather have a Pablo style rework, then an ember nerf fest.

Yes, Ember was handled very badly and I see your point. I appreciate your being a bit clearer on this.

While I might not necessarily agree with everything you've said, I do respect your point of view, I acknowledge that do make some valid points, and I appreciate your wish to keep this on topic and civil.

That said, thank you.

 

[(PSN)chibitonka]

7 hours ago, (NSW)Kokojo said:

Hey, i'm not here to talk bad about Pablo. The guy does a amazing job on what he does and if he's capable in doing the UI and those good Warframes/Reworks so far (You can't deny that his stuff works) then that's very good.

If you didn't notice, new Warframes are less straightforward and more well rounded.

See Ash. Ash kill stuff, Ash is very very good at killing stuff, but he can't do much aside from that. Now look at Wisp, she has damage, tank, support, CC. For the current state of the game, a Warframe with only a single job has very little use.

Pablo does a good job when he's inspired. He's played plenty of saryn and nezha hence why their reworks came out so well. Wukong no clue if he even plays him at all so it's looking iffy. 

Hard to make good reworks on something you don't know like the back of your hand. Applies to anyone.

[Lancars]

On 2019-05-24 at 2:34 PM, Hyro1 said:

How about u wait until the concept is finished before complaining, it was clearly stated that everything is WIP with some abilities that cant be shown at the time

Except this is the prime time to give feedback?

I see people scold others for giving feedback before something is out and that very same person scolding people complains about the changes and complains they didn't listen to feedback.

[(PSN)chibitonka]

On 2019-05-30 at 6:04 AM, (PS4)thefallenloser said:

(try saying that title ten times fast... like seriously, it would be hilarious if people sent in voice clips of that)

The most recent Devstream showed of some in-progress displays of Wukong's rework. I have a few problems with it, so here are my issues and suggestions.

I will also be pulling from my last Wukong thread, while incorporating the newly show off ideas.

Last thread:

  Reveal hidden contents

I obviously do not still agree with my former (foolish) notion that Wukong wasn't weak, because he only has one good ability. The rest were mediocre to downright bad.

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

First, let's go over the wacky stuff shown off in the Devstream.

1ST - Hair of the King

  Reveal hidden contents

 

A clone of Wukong is created that engages in the opposite combat mode the player is in. It sounds pretty interesting, but there's one huge problem that we've learned already. This clone is AI and Warframe friendly AI is pretty terrible. Having an entire ability rely on it is basically having no ability at all. Not to mention that specters exist. Cool in concept, but the execution definitely needs to be changed... at least until AI improvements are made.

2ND - Defy

A divisive one indeed, though I am quite a fan of the direction the ability has been taken in. It's much more engaging, skillful, and fun. My problem with it is that it doesn't entirely make up for what was lost with the original Defy. A few addition effects should be thrown in. Additionally, I think that Defy should encourage more skillful play to prevent spamming and bestow a penalty upon those who mistime it or a bonus to those who time is better (more on that later).

3RD - Cloud Walker

Though I was impressed with the proposed mechanical changes to Defy, I was immediately met with disappointment with the Cloud Walker showcase. Next to no changes were made, and the suggestions from players for a complete rework of the ability was completely disregarded. Cloud Walker is still boring, out of place, and unrepresentative of the lore it was based from.

4TH - Primal Fury (Iron Staff)

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I'm not a fan of the Baruuk-style meter that has been proposed at all. I understand that DE wanted to make it feel more special, but this is the wrong way to do it. It doesn't really fit with Wukong at all. Instead, it should embody the properties of the pole more. On the other hand, the combo changes and damage increases were pretty sweet, nothing more to say it.

So, this is a pretty 50/50 rework. How do we improve on it? Here are my suggestions:

_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________

While we're talking about making some Wukong changes, let's adjust his attributes to fit more in-line with his role.

Attribute Changes -

• increase health from 300 to 450
• decrease shields from 375 to 175
• increase armor from 225 to 300
• increase sprint speed from 0.95 to 1.10

And with that, a bit of a passive change...

NEW Passive -

Wukong has an additive 15% range and speed when using polearm and stuff weapons.

1ST - Hair of the King

Wukong throws out hairs to up to 6 enemies in a 20 meter cone, marking them while also rending armor. When enemies are marked, clones will appear at the target's location before performing a Primal Fury combo on them and finally fading into a cloud, temporarily blinding them.

• a solution to the AI problem, since clones will have set actions

2ND - Defy

Though we don't have too much information on Defy, I would like to add on to what was revealed on it. Let's say that in addition to Wukong throwing out damage when timed correctly, he will also regenerate some health. Time Defy better to regenerate more health. When Defy is used when Hair of the King is active, the clones will all combine into one, shift back to Wukong's position, and absorb damage with him.

• makes up for what was lost in health regeneration
• rewards skillful play by granting bonuses to those who taunt with proper timing, as it could potentially leave players wide open to damage
• suggestion: reflected damage is multiplied to account for enemy defenses

3RD - Cloud Walker

We all want Goku, we love K-Drives. We like flying. Though this could require a lot of work to make right, here's an idea...

Wukong summons down a cloud from the heavens that he can ride on to assist him in traversal and battle. Only melee weapons and the Iron Staff are available for use in this mode. When the cloud is called down, enemies with a 6 meter radius are briefly stunned with fog. Wukong's speed is increased by 50% and he also has freedom of verticality via holding down the jump button.

• fits better into Wukong's kit, allowing for more synergy; more thematically accurate

4TH - Primal Fury

It seems as though lots of people are saying that the proposed "Baruuk-style meter" is something they don't want to see. Though we don't have the specifics, I can agree on this sentiment. Instead, how about something like this? Wukong's Primal Fury has three stages: small, medium, large. Wukong can access these stages via holding down the ability key, shifting Wukong into three different stances to indicate each stage. While charging up, Wukong is invulnerable to damage, and absorbs it to temporarily add a percentage of slash damage to the Iron Staff. The larger the Iron Staff is, the slower, but also stronger. Iron Staff has increased ground slam radius and damage.

• more thematically accurate
• more viable in high-level play/endgame (more slash-is-king and increased damage)
• more CC via ground-slams

So... lemme know what you think!

Rereading jttw to make one more insane than this one.

[MirageKnight]

11 hours ago, (PS4)chibitonka said:

Pablo does a good job when he's inspired.

That's the problem...when he's inspired. And "good job" is a questionable description.

11 hours ago, (PS4)chibitonka said:

He's played plenty of saryn and nezha hence why their reworks came out so well.

That's a funny way of saying Saryn's rework came out horribly overpowered and with little consideration for other players and the hefty bonuses that mods can provide. Because that rework is objectively unbalanced and thus bad. When a Frame can delete dozens of enemies within seconds with minimal effort on Hydron and ESO, which a lot of players can and will testify to, that's stupidly overpowered and needs to be addressed.

Arguably, only incredibly naive players and self-serving kill hogs would think that this is perfectly ok and call her rework "great".

Nezha is in a somewhat better place than before, but I still see lots of people using Fire Walker and Warding Halo the vast majority of the time and maybe Divine Spears once in a while.

11 hours ago, (PS4)chibitonka said:

Wukong no clue if he even plays him at all so it's looking iffy. 

That's putting it mildly. Keep him away from Vauban then.

Scott? We love you. All is forgiven.

[toyetic]

11 minutes ago, MirageKnight said:

Arguably, only incredibly naive players and self-serving kill hogs would think that this is perfectly ok and call her rework "great".

This is the first time ive seen someone call saryn's rework bad in any facet. The forums continue to surprise me

[Violet_Xe]

3 hours ago, toyetic said:

This is the first time ive seen someone call saryn's rework bad in any facet. The forums continue to surprise me

I had a long responde written out but this is a wukong rework so i'll cut it short. Look up the specifics of these abilities and look up how much better they are when compared to similar abilities such as molt vs decoy.

Saryn got a rework and all her abilities are as follows.

Spores, an infinite scaling dps armor strip that coveres entire rooms
Molt, A better loki decoy that's actually useful
Toxic Lash, God Tier toxin damage and melee boost. Increases all weapon damage.
Misama, massive aoe stun that cuts enemy hp in half making slash great.

All of this is condition overload of 240% with an extra 60% from lash boost. She can mop the floor with ESO defection, and defense.

I'm a banshee player ok. Reworks such as pablo's while they're great make frames irrelivent. Hell I don't know who worked on wisp but thats a good place to show you what I mean.

Wisp got released with reservoir. It gives max hp and insane regen, stupid movement speed, and stuns all enemies in her mote area or around the buffed warframe. cool right? well there are those of us who saw this and were like, wait a second.... WAIT A- VAUBAN NO! YOU'RE NOT MEANT TO CROSS DRESS. 

Tesla can be charged for 5 seconds to zap a single enemy for poor damage. Maybe CC if you're lucky.

   Now class lets compare, who's first ability is more powerful? that's right WISP! know why? her 1 ability isn't just tesla on sterioids, but it's an infinite team buff in speed, hp, and regen. Oh yeah she can teleport to them at any range to. Place a mote infron tof the PoE gate and teleport to it from amountain about 700m away. You can still teleport to that reservoir. There are other exmples like why did loki's decoy ability get ripped off again or why can wisp even blind enemies through walls. That's literally what they nerfed Mirage's ult for in Draco. What's the point.

   What were trying to say is yes Saryn's rework was great. so good in fact it failed. She got reworked but other frames now need a rework to even be recognized by the community. Either that or nerf saryn. She's so good she made other warframes a moot point. yeah she can't kill an eidolon or farm enemies, but everywhere else she's the goddess that looks down on other warframes in pity.
   I'm a banshee main, ok, follow me for a bit. Saryn has 4 status types available with her augment that all kill enemies. Lets say everyone in the match has condition overload on their weapons. Well, ok what's the point of my banshee? damage boost? why though? we already have 240% damage boost with gas, toxin, viral, and corrosive. Not even counting our own weapon's status. My damage boost has become completly useless. I'm only useful when enemies hit say lvl 150. That's when saryn can't kill enemies alone. But eh, why would we go to 150 enemies again? oh right we don't... ever. banshee's lost her place in the game. And saying that soundquake is her best ability is just a lie. It's sonor and silence. But theres no reason to use those. Just because they lost viability doesn't mean they aren't her best abilities. I refuse to use my damage support as an afk exp booster. Saryn did this to me. DE did this to me by removing void keys. At least nova is still useful with her slow and speed buffs which is tied to her best ability, Banshee's got nothing. Ask shy, she hates sound quake. Banshee can still be played yes, but when you see a banshee now, are they running to boost your team? or are they running a small savage silence build. Us banshee players have lost our place in the game and now take it out on a single enemy at a time. We used to be THE BEST warframe to take with you on hour+ long runs if we knew what we were doing. Now what? we farm? Saryn's got survivals locked down. Life of Rio can use saryn to kill lvl 800 enemies without problems with the use of specs and the zenistar. These games play themselves now.

What Mirage Knight is saying is that this may happen with Wu Kong. In a co op game, he will make other warframes useless by making him too good. Pablo has a gift for making reworks, I can't deny that. But if you're making a game there are rules to follow. YOU don't decide when a frame gets reworked just by saying eh nah I don't feel like it today. It's work, it's a job. You keep balance. even then his reworks only seem to make work for other members of DE. Even in some cases throwing DE under the bus because if Pablo isn't the rework guy, then we all quiver in fear, hell maybe even DE is nervous to rework their own frames now. There are reasons to fear both a DE rework and Pablo rework. One is obviously more preferable than the other. Wu Kong's rework can go three ways.

Follow the Pablo Brick Road                                  Balanced, Fresh, Unique, and New                               Ember's Thanksnerfing Dinner

yes this was short compared to the rant I was about to do. In all seriousness I do hope that we take the middle path. It feels like thats where were going but we could easily slip into the first or third option.

Edited June 1, 2019 by Violet_Xe
Example Edit, hey first video I watch today after posting this I see DK using saryn. Feels bad.

[toyetic]

1 hour ago, Violet_Xe said:

I'm a banshee player ok. Reworks such as pablo's while they're great make frames irrelivent. Hell I don't know who worked on wisp but thats a good place to show you what I mean.

Banshee isn't all of a sudden irrelevant because saryn is the best aoe map clearer in the game. Her sound quake was always good but has never been the best at aoe clearing even before saryn's rework that title used to belong to mesa at any level above 30. And at any level below 30 ember before her nerf was just as good. 

Also banshee being underused now could be solved if we ever have a reason to do high level content. Banshee allows for the highest damage buff for herself and teammates but no one cares about it because going to high levels is useless. If going to high levels and organizing team comps ever becomes important then she'll see much more use. This isn't a saryn issue it's a difficulty issue

Frames like banshee aren't all of a sudden complete trash because saryn became a great frame. These frames always needed tweaks and changes that they've yet to get as others got better and better. There's no need to nerf saryn when you can just buff banshee and make content where she matters.

Also

1 hour ago, Violet_Xe said:

What Mirage Knight is saying is that this may happen with Wu Kong. In a co op game, he will make other warframes useless by making him too good. 

I would #*!%ing love this

Edited June 1, 2019 by toyetic

[Violet_Xe]

25 minutes ago, toyetic said:

Banshee isn't all of a sudden irrelevant because saryn is the best aoe map clearer in the game. Her sound quake was always good but has never been the best at aoe clearing even before saryn's rework that title used to belong to mesa at any level above 30. And at any level below 30 ember before her nerf was just as good. 

Also banshee being underused now could be solved if we ever have a reason to do high level content. Banshee allows for the highest damage buff for herself and teammates but no one cares about it because going to high levels is useless. If going to high levels and organizing team comps ever becomes important then she'll see much more use. This isn't a saryn issue it's a difficulty issue

Frames like banshee aren't all of a sudden complete trash because saryn became a great frame. These frames always needed tweaks and changes that they've yet to get as others got better and better. There's no need to nerf saryn when you can just buff banshee and make content where she matters.

I'd love to debate this with you. I honestly would. I have so many reasons why saryn's made banshee and other warframes pointless but this is a topic about Wu Kong so i'm not going to put my points here. I've already derailed the convo enough.

30 minutes ago, toyetic said:

I would #*!%ing love this

If you would love this, then you're obviously on the side where warframes should be demigods. That's fine, your opinion is your own. Just saying I disagree for X and Y reasons. Lets leave it there. DE picks whether or not this happens. Though the way you said that makes you sound kinda rude. You want Wu Kong to make other frames irrelevent? why?

[toyetic]

6 minutes ago, Violet_Xe said:

 You want Wu Kong to make other frames irrelevent? why?

b/c A. it would mean wukong is a good frame and
b. it would mean DE has a reason to look at frames made irrelevant by him and rework them

[Violet_Xe]

1 minute ago, toyetic said:

b/c A. it would mean wukong is a good frame

   Wu Kong would be a good frame yes but he would be too good. At least that's my opinion. We can't really debate out on A over who's right because DE can't figure out if were meant to be broken strong or have some challenge.

 

8 minutes ago, toyetic said:

b. it would mean DE has a reason to look at frames made irrelevant by him and rework them

   B. That's counter productive. Why would they purposefully over tune him to rework other warframes. They've already got a list of frames that need help. Vauban, Loki, Nyx, Titanya, Ember, and Zephyr. They don't need to over tune it. Plus if they keep over tuning and leave it there. They never learn how to perfectly balance the warframes.
   Another reason that's stupid is because if they keep over tuning warframes then they have a higher chance at accidentally making that warframe way WAY too powerful make more frames be overshadowed and have that warframes fan base demand a rework. This makes an infinite loop of overtuning until the game just isn't fun anymore. it would drive DE insane. theres already alot of us who demand that we get actual challenge, we don't want to make the frames become stuck in an endless buff loop. You NEED to nerf stuff in games.
   This infinite loop or even just making more reworks for themselves takes time away from mainline updates such as cinematic quests, warframes, tile revamps, etc etc. Why would they want to waste their time on a rework rather than making new and fresh content. If at all possible i'd want all the warframes to be in a good spot so that we no longer have to worry about reworks. That opens the door for more time spent on stuff like Rail Jack, the New War, hell even start making the AI better. It's making more work for no other problem. it's akin to sweeping the issue under the rug until you need to get address it later at a time you don't want to. it's procrastination. 

[(PSN)sonicizanagi]

On 2019-05-31 at 6:34 AM, Teridax68 said:

But Cloud Walker does in fact provide invulnerability, and the only reason its mobility is bad now is because it slows Wukong. If it were to increase his movement speed instead, which is apparently what's going to happen, that would solve its problems. How then does one have better stealth options if Void Mode also slows you down?

Yes it will be increased but you will always have better exceptions for stealth, because you can have longer ranged void dashes, invisibility on your warframe, stuns that actually are usable, and inate energy regen how is this even a question? Void mode out performs Wukong's 3 hands down. Also if your doing stealth you aren't always going to be bringing Wukong anyways.

 

On 2019-05-31 at 6:34 AM, Teridax68 said:

So, in other words... this has strictly nothing to do with Wukong, because unlike Nidus, Wukong's damage currently isn't great? In that case, why even bring up Nidus? Wouldn't a frame with poor baseline damage benefit more from a lump increase in damage than one who's already good enough at it?

Adding a lump some of damage on an ability that is barely even used currently will not do enough and again there are better options like companions or operator mode and I'm bringing up Nidus because he does some of the things Wukong does better than he does an undying ability, damage, and survivability.

 

On 2019-05-31 at 6:34 AM, Teridax68 said:

Except the argument you made, i.e. that Wukong's stealth is bad just because Void Mode exists, can be made for any stealth frame, hence me pointing our your argument makes no sense. Loki can parkour while invisible, Ivara is reduced to walking (and reveals herself while shooting with non-silenced guns), meanwhile Wukong can fly around. For sure, he has a bigger drain, which should hopefully become less of a problem if he gets his Defy drain removed and his 4 switched to a Restraint-like resource (or, more simply, if the drain gets reduced), and even less so if the ability itself gets more movement speed. 

The comment you made on void mode doesn't apply to Loki invisibility and switch teleport along with innate high Sprint, Doesn't Ivara have a Zipline and cloak arrow? Also the argument you make for cloud walker is very weak because all the frames and resources I've listed have trivialized this point you tried to defend.

 

On 2019-05-31 at 6:34 AM, Teridax68 said:

how? Why?

Are you actually kidding me if defy isn't his core is it his 1 that was changed? Was it his 2? That DE themselves stated don't worry about the changes to defy the other abilities will be strengthen enough so you can rely on them more. Which sounds like it's his core ability, I get that your trying to get a more specific answer but this made you sound very ignorant. it's just his core ability with out it he would fall apart like volt with no 3 or Nidus with no 1.

 

On 2019-05-31 at 6:34 AM, Teridax68 said:

right now, certainly, because Cloud Walker slows Wukong instead of speeding him up, which the new Cloud Walker is apparently slated to do (and even then, he can travel much faster through vertical terrain than Saryn, Octavia, Ivara, or Ash). Not even Titania gets a speed boost when in her own Archwing mode, so given the right amount, he could in fact become quite fast. Moreover... why exactly are you even comparing Wukong's traversal to frames with abilities exclusively designed for fast movement, e.g. Volt, Zephyr or Nova? Just because Wukong isn't better than everyone else at literally everything, or slated to be, doesn't mean his rework is doomed to failure

I'm comparing Wukong to speed and stealth frames because his 3 is a combination of the 2 abilities. He doesn't have to be, it's just will that ability even be worth while after the buff? and just cause he's being reworked doesn't mean he's going to be a perfect embodiment of what people want. Do you not remember all of the rework fails that kept the frames where they were or took them even lower Ember, Vauban, Hydroid, Nyx,  and Titania. Wukong is now in the same situation Zephyr was in a rework before the prime comes outs.

 

On 2019-05-31 at 6:34 AM, Teridax68 said:

for now? The ability isn't even released yet, so how exactly do you get to pretend it's live already? Again, look at Equinox's Duality, and how strong enough it is for her players to equip it for not just status, but also damage.

Of course it's not released its a WIP that will be going on during the preparation for tennocon I'm going based off what was said and shown. also the augment argument is half-an-half, it enhanced a move that only let you switch forms so yes people who seek damage would flock to this ability but it's also optional. Wukong's ability is so they have to make it at least appealing and satisfying or it will just be another we'll fix it with an augment instead of actually fixing the ability.

 

On 2019-05-31 at 6:34 AM, Teridax68 said:

Did they not explicitly say that the ability would have its damage buffed? Also, how is it boring, let alone more boring than a big stick you can have on at literally all times, and that therefore has to be balanced around 100% uptime? You seem to be missing the fact here that preventing abilities from having 100% uptime means they can be allowed to be legitimately stronger when they do get used, and get to work better as big-ticket abilities for special situations, rather than yet another steroid to have around at all times

Yes it will have it damage buffed on a exalted weapon yeah I get it will be "strong" but there are literally better weapons out there. Thus this takes away the illusion of strength you have because excluding the exalted weapon any one can do this. "but you can have 2 of them out at the same time" sure that sounds fun to some but to me the spectical of the 4 seems small in it's current iteration.

 

On 2019-05-31 at 6:34 AM, Teridax68 said:

and whose entire story leads him to learn the value of restraint and self-control, to the point where he eventually attains Buddhahood. Rather in tune with his lore, then, wouldn't you think?

Yes it would be but we can't say if that is the intended direction they're going for as seen with the clone ability this could be nothing more than an area DE could fall short upon then improve the time it's revisited again. Indeed adding in lore to compliment his kit would please most Wukong players.

 

On 2019-05-31 at 6:34 AM, Teridax68 said:

Indeed, so why are you complaining?

If implemented poorly it will only back- fire that's the only thing I'm worried about.

 

On 2019-05-31 at 6:34 AM, Teridax68 said:

So it's not bad, then? In which case, why complain about it? Do you honestly believe you are being productive if you reaction to DE making meaningful improvements to a frame you claim to like is to continue to dismiss them as if the improvement were itself a detriment?

Melee 3.0 has been in the works for a decent amount of time so getting a bit of it isn't that bad, so I don't know where you got that from. And the changes they stated weren't bad per say but they don't make me very excited some people like it I personally don't but I also don't get what your saying it's as if you think I hate what they're doing I just find it unimpressive.

[MirageKnight]

6 hours ago, toyetic said:

This is the first time ive seen someone call saryn's rework bad in any facet. The forums continue to surprise me

Trust me, I'm not the only person so there's a glimmer of hope.

 

To clarify, the only thing that makes Saryn's rework "bad" in my eyes are two fold.

First is her ability to scale and thus overcome the very roadblocks that are supposed to impede our progress. Second is how ridiculously ease it is for Spores to spread and multiply, coupled with how quickly they kill.

Other than that, Saryn's kit's in a very good place: There's finally some synergy between abilities and everything in her kit has a viable use. The problem is that Molt and Toxic Lash are largely superfluous when you can delete a massive crowd with a couple of popped Spores followed up by Miasma.

If there are some sounds I've come to really hate in pub games, it's the sound of Miasma spam and spores popping. Because it means that once again, someone's going to do all the killing and everyone else gets to either sit around or fight over scraps.

Seriously, when I realize there's a Saryn in a game, I just say, "Saryn again? I'm out" and leave. It's really pointless to stay.

NO - going to recruit is NOT a reasonable option. I shouldn't have to make a custom game and go to recruit because DE allows unbalanced crap that is exploited on a daily basis to exist.

[(PSN)chibitonka]

57 minutes ago, MirageKnight said:

Trust me, I'm not the only person so there's a glimmer of hope.

 

To clarify, the only thing that makes Saryn's rework "bad" in my eyes are two fold.

First is her ability to scale and thus overcome the very roadblocks that are supposed to impede our progress. Second is how ridiculously ease it is for Spores to spread and multiply, coupled with how quickly they kill.

Other than that, Saryn's kit's in a very good place: There's finally some synergy between abilities and everything in her kit has a viable use. The problem is that Molt and Toxic Lash are largely superfluous when you can delete a massive crowd with a couple of popped Spores followed up by Miasma.

If there are some sounds I've come to really hate in pub games, it's the sound of Miasma spam and spores popping. Because it means that once again, someone's going to do all the killing and everyone else gets to either sit around or fight over scraps.

Seriously, when I realize there's a Saryn in a game, I just say, "Saryn again? I'm out" and leave. It's really pointless to stay.

NO - going to recruit is NOT a reasonable option. I shouldn't have to make a custom game and go to recruit because DE allows unbalanced crap that is exploited on a daily basis to exist.

I mean the concept of challenge or difficulty in the game is so laughably bad that pretty much anything getting a decent rework will come out over powered. Issue isn't really the frames getting the reworks, moreso the overwhelming lack of difficulty. 

Warframes idea of balance is really bad. Let's be real what's the hallmarks for difficulty in this game? It's artificially generated at best. Hm they're killing lv50's really fast we should nerf it. Or make the mobs higher level, nope that didn't work either. 

Maybe it should get nerfed lmfao. nope, it's the games lack of challenge to begin with. 

Steve and Scott: "you're fired get out of my sight..."

[(PSN)chibitonka]

6 hours ago, moostar95 said:

At this point. The concept of balance in this game is a joke when playing coop. Which is why I mainly play solo.

this game has no difficulty outside bigger numbers. any balance made off that is so bad it's better not existing xD