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Wukong rework first impressions

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1 minute ago, toyetic said:

b/c A. it would mean wukong is a good frame

   Wu Kong would be a good frame yes but he would be too good. At least that's my opinion. We can't really debate out on A over who's right because DE can't figure out if were meant to be broken strong or have some challenge.

 

8 minutes ago, toyetic said:

b. it would mean DE has a reason to look at frames made irrelevant by him and rework them

   B. That's counter productive. Why would they purposefully over tune him to rework other warframes. They've already got a list of frames that need help. Vauban, Loki, Nyx, Titanya, Ember, and Zephyr. They don't need to over tune it. Plus if they keep over tuning and leave it there. They never learn how to perfectly balance the warframes.
   Another reason that's stupid is because if they keep over tuning warframes then they have a higher chance at accidentally making that warframe way WAY too powerful make more frames be overshadowed and have that warframes fan base demand a rework. This makes an infinite loop of overtuning until the game just isn't fun anymore. it would drive DE insane. theres already alot of us who demand that we get actual challenge, we don't want to make the frames become stuck in an endless buff loop. You NEED to nerf stuff in games.
   This infinite loop or even just making more reworks for themselves takes time away from mainline updates such as cinematic quests, warframes, tile revamps, etc etc. Why would they want to waste their time on a rework rather than making new and fresh content. If at all possible i'd want all the warframes to be in a good spot so that we no longer have to worry about reworks. That opens the door for more time spent on stuff like Rail Jack, the New War, hell even start making the AI better. It's making more work for no other problem. it's akin to sweeping the issue under the rug until you need to get address it later at a time you don't want to. it's procrastination. 

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On 2019-05-31 at 6:34 AM, Teridax68 said:

But Cloud Walker does in fact provide invulnerability, and the only reason its mobility is bad now is because it slows Wukong. If it were to increase his movement speed instead, which is apparently what's going to happen, that would solve its problems. How then does one have better stealth options if Void Mode also slows you down?

Yes it will be increased but you will always have better exceptions for stealth, because you can have longer ranged void dashes, invisibility on your warframe, stuns that actually are usable, and inate energy regen how is this even a question? Void mode out performs Wukong's 3 hands down. Also if your doing stealth you aren't always going to be bringing Wukong anyways.

 

On 2019-05-31 at 6:34 AM, Teridax68 said:

So, in other words... this has strictly nothing to do with Wukong, because unlike Nidus, Wukong's damage currently isn't great? In that case, why even bring up Nidus? Wouldn't a frame with poor baseline damage benefit more from a lump increase in damage than one who's already good enough at it?

Adding a lump some of damage on an ability that is barely even used currently will not do enough and again there are better options like companions or operator mode and I'm bringing up Nidus because he does some of the things Wukong does better than he does an undying ability, damage, and survivability.

 

On 2019-05-31 at 6:34 AM, Teridax68 said:

Except the argument you made, i.e. that Wukong's stealth is bad just because Void Mode exists, can be made for any stealth frame, hence me pointing our your argument makes no sense. Loki can parkour while invisible, Ivara is reduced to walking (and reveals herself while shooting with non-silenced guns), meanwhile Wukong can fly around. For sure, he has a bigger drain, which should hopefully become less of a problem if he gets his Defy drain removed and his 4 switched to a Restraint-like resource (or, more simply, if the drain gets reduced), and even less so if the ability itself gets more movement speed. 

The comment you made on void mode doesn't apply to Loki invisibility and switch teleport along with innate high Sprint, Doesn't Ivara have a Zipline and cloak arrow? Also the argument you make for cloud walker is very weak because all the frames and resources I've listed have trivialized this point you tried to defend.

 

On 2019-05-31 at 6:34 AM, Teridax68 said:

how? Why?

Are you actually kidding me if defy isn't his core is it his 1 that was changed? Was it his 2? That DE themselves stated don't worry about the changes to defy the other abilities will be strengthen enough so you can rely on them more. Which sounds like it's his core ability, I get that your trying to get a more specific answer but this made you sound very ignorant. it's just his core ability with out it he would fall apart like volt with no 3 or Nidus with no 1.

 

On 2019-05-31 at 6:34 AM, Teridax68 said:

right now, certainly, because Cloud Walker slows Wukong instead of speeding him up, which the new Cloud Walker is apparently slated to do (and even then, he can travel much faster through vertical terrain than Saryn, Octavia, Ivara, or Ash). Not even Titania gets a speed boost when in her own Archwing mode, so given the right amount, he could in fact become quite fast. Moreover... why exactly are you even comparing Wukong's traversal to frames with abilities exclusively designed for fast movement, e.g. Volt, Zephyr or Nova? Just because Wukong isn't better than everyone else at literally everything, or slated to be, doesn't mean his rework is doomed to failure

I'm comparing Wukong to speed and stealth frames because his 3 is a combination of the 2 abilities. He doesn't have to be, it's just will that ability even be worth while after the buff? and just cause he's being reworked doesn't mean he's going to be a perfect embodiment of what people want. Do you not remember all of the rework fails that kept the frames where they were or took them even lower Ember, Vauban, Hydroid, Nyx,  and Titania. Wukong is now in the same situation Zephyr was in a rework before the prime comes outs.

 

On 2019-05-31 at 6:34 AM, Teridax68 said:

for now? The ability isn't even released yet, so how exactly do you get to pretend it's live already? Again, look at Equinox's Duality, and how strong enough it is for her players to equip it for not just status, but also damage.

Of course it's not released its a WIP that will be going on during the preparation for tennocon I'm going based off what was said and shown. also the augment argument is half-an-half, it enhanced a move that only let you switch forms so yes people who seek damage would flock to this ability but it's also optional. Wukong's ability is so they have to make it at least appealing and satisfying or it will just be another we'll fix it with an augment instead of actually fixing the ability.

 

On 2019-05-31 at 6:34 AM, Teridax68 said:

Did they not explicitly say that the ability would have its damage buffed? Also, how is it boring, let alone more boring than a big stick you can have on at literally all times, and that therefore has to be balanced around 100% uptime? You seem to be missing the fact here that preventing abilities from having 100% uptime means they can be allowed to be legitimately stronger when they do get used, and get to work better as big-ticket abilities for special situations, rather than yet another steroid to have around at all times

Yes it will have it damage buffed on a exalted weapon yeah I get it will be "strong" but there are literally better weapons out there. Thus this takes away the illusion of strength you have because excluding the exalted weapon any one can do this. "but you can have 2 of them out at the same time" sure that sounds fun to some but to me the spectical of the 4 seems small in it's current iteration.

 

On 2019-05-31 at 6:34 AM, Teridax68 said:

and whose entire story leads him to learn the value of restraint and self-control, to the point where he eventually attains Buddhahood. Rather in tune with his lore, then, wouldn't you think?

Yes it would be but we can't say if that is the intended direction they're going for as seen with the clone ability this could be nothing more than an area DE could fall short upon then improve the time it's revisited again. Indeed adding in lore to compliment his kit would please most Wukong players.

 

On 2019-05-31 at 6:34 AM, Teridax68 said:

Indeed, so why are you complaining?

If implemented poorly it will only back- fire that's the only thing I'm worried about.

 

On 2019-05-31 at 6:34 AM, Teridax68 said:

So it's not bad, then? In which case, why complain about it? Do you honestly believe you are being productive if you reaction to DE making meaningful improvements to a frame you claim to like is to continue to dismiss them as if the improvement were itself a detriment?

Melee 3.0 has been in the works for a decent amount of time so getting a bit of it isn't that bad, so I don't know where you got that from. And the changes they stated weren't bad per say but they don't make me very excited some people like it I personally don't but I also don't get what your saying it's as if you think I hate what they're doing I just find it unimpressive.

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6 hours ago, toyetic said:

This is the first time ive seen someone call saryn's rework bad in any facet. The forums continue to surprise me

Trust me, I'm not the only person so there's a glimmer of hope.

 

To clarify, the only thing that makes Saryn's rework "bad" in my eyes are two fold.

First is her ability to scale and thus overcome the very roadblocks that are supposed to impede our progress. Second is how ridiculously ease it is for Spores to spread and multiply, coupled with how quickly they kill.

Other than that, Saryn's kit's in a very good place: There's finally some synergy between abilities and everything in her kit has a viable use. The problem is that Molt and Toxic Lash are largely superfluous when you can delete a massive crowd with a couple of popped Spores followed up by Miasma.

If there are some sounds I've come to really hate in pub games, it's the sound of Miasma spam and spores popping. Because it means that once again, someone's going to do all the killing and everyone else gets to either sit around or fight over scraps.

Seriously, when I realize there's a Saryn in a game, I just say, "Saryn again? I'm out" and leave. It's really pointless to stay.

NO - going to recruit is NOT a reasonable option. I shouldn't have to make a custom game and go to recruit because DE allows unbalanced crap that is exploited on a daily basis to exist.

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57 minutes ago, MirageKnight said:

Trust me, I'm not the only person so there's a glimmer of hope.

 

To clarify, the only thing that makes Saryn's rework "bad" in my eyes are two fold.

First is her ability to scale and thus overcome the very roadblocks that are supposed to impede our progress. Second is how ridiculously ease it is for Spores to spread and multiply, coupled with how quickly they kill.

Other than that, Saryn's kit's in a very good place: There's finally some synergy between abilities and everything in her kit has a viable use. The problem is that Molt and Toxic Lash are largely superfluous when you can delete a massive crowd with a couple of popped Spores followed up by Miasma.

If there are some sounds I've come to really hate in pub games, it's the sound of Miasma spam and spores popping. Because it means that once again, someone's going to do all the killing and everyone else gets to either sit around or fight over scraps.

Seriously, when I realize there's a Saryn in a game, I just say, "Saryn again? I'm out" and leave. It's really pointless to stay.

NO - going to recruit is NOT a reasonable option. I shouldn't have to make a custom game and go to recruit because DE allows unbalanced crap that is exploited on a daily basis to exist.

I mean the concept of challenge or difficulty in the game is so laughably bad that pretty much anything getting a decent rework will come out over powered. Issue isn't really the frames getting the reworks, moreso the overwhelming lack of difficulty. 

Warframes idea of balance is really bad. Let's be real what's the hallmarks for difficulty in this game? It's artificially generated at best. Hm they're killing lv50's really fast we should nerf it. Or make the mobs higher level, nope that didn't work either. 

Maybe it should get nerfed lmfao. nope, it's the games lack of challenge to begin with. 

Steve and Scott: "you're fired get out of my sight..."

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6 hours ago, moostar95 said:

At this point. The concept of balance in this game is a joke when playing coop. Which is why I mainly play solo.

this game has no difficulty outside bigger numbers. any balance made off that is so bad it's better not existing xD

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21 minutes ago, (PS4)chibitonka said:

I mean the concept of challenge or difficulty in the game is so laughably bad that pretty much anything getting a decent rework will come out over powered. Issue isn't really the frames getting the reworks, moreso the overwhelming lack of difficulty. 

Yeah, but our ability to trivialize even "high level" content with OP gear and CC really needs looking at as well.

Also, dumping a ton of HP into a unit that does hefty damage or is capable of 1hit killing isn't really challenging either: It's just boring and frustrating, rather than being a test of skill and perseverance.

Look at the Wolf of Saturn Six. He's a sponge made of armor with armor on top of that. He's immune to most abilities and status effects. He requires a specific damage type to kill and requires critical hits for extra damage...yet takes LESS damage from head shots. In short, he has to cheat in order to survive the most punishing loadouts we can muster and provide a "challenge". But he isn't even truly challenging. He's just a massive tank that dishes out damage. No interesting move sets or abilities. No tweaked AI that allows him to occasionally block incoming fire when he's not attacking or even the ability to dodge. No other weapons except that hammer. He's boring, dumb, and little more than a brick wall to knock down. He's nothing but a test of patience and ammo capacity.

Challenge is being able to overcome an enemy that's better equipped than you. That's a bit hard to achieve when we have abilities, weapons, and mods that allow us to crush most level 30-40 enemies with relative ease.

I've said this before, but if you all want some real challenge, you're going to be have to be willing to give up some power to get that challenge. 

How does this relate to the Wukong Rework?

Simple.

I want him to be inspired, interesting and varied. I want him to be able to play well with other Frames and be a team asset. Most importantly, I don't want him to be able to go into Hydron or ESO and say "Hey guys! That's a really nice fight you have going on there. It would be a real shame if I clicked this ability and deleted more than half the enemies on the map, wouldn't it?"  Because this is what Frames like Saryn and Equinox do on a regular basis and we don't need another damn map clearer.

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2 hours ago, MirageKnight said:

Trust me, I'm not the only person so there's a glimmer of hope.

 

To clarify, the only thing that makes Saryn's rework "bad" in my eyes are two fold.

First is her ability to scale and thus overcome the very roadblocks that are supposed to impede our progress. Second is how ridiculously ease it is for Spores to spread and multiply, coupled with how quickly they kill.

Other than that, Saryn's kit's in a very good place: There's finally some synergy between abilities and everything in her kit has a viable use. The problem is that Molt and Toxic Lash are largely superfluous when you can delete a massive crowd with a couple of popped Spores followed up by Miasma.

If there are some sounds I've come to really hate in pub games, it's the sound of Miasma spam and spores popping. Because it means that once again, someone's going to do all the killing and everyone else gets to either sit around or fight over scraps.

Seriously, when I realize there's a Saryn in a game, I just say, "Saryn again? I'm out" and leave. It's really pointless to stay.

NO - going to recruit is NOT a reasonable option. I shouldn't have to make a custom game and go to recruit because DE allows unbalanced crap that is exploited on a daily basis to exist.

Just don't do anything but run in circles if saryn or nukers do anything. If people want to play for me and I get my reward. What's the issue. Also solo, solo etc.

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Posted (edited)
44 minutes ago, MirageKnight said:

Yeah, but our ability to trivialize even "high level" content with OP gear and CC really needs looking at as well.

Also, dumping a ton of HP into a unit that does hefty damage or is capable of 1hit killing isn't really challenging either: It's just boring and frustrating, rather than being a test of skill and perseverance.

Look at the Wolf of Saturn Six. He's a sponge made of armor with armor on top of that. He's immune to most abilities and status effects. He requires a specific damage type to kill and requires critical hits for extra damage...yet takes LESS damage from head shots. In short, he has to cheat in order to survive the most punishing loadouts we can muster and provide a "challenge". But he isn't even truly challenging. He's just a massive tank that dishes out damage. No interesting move sets or abilities. No tweaked AI that allows him to occasionally block incoming fire when he's not attacking or even the ability to dodge. No other weapons except that hammer. He's boring, dumb, and little more than a brick wall to knock down. He's nothing but a test of patience and ammo capacity.

Challenge is being able to overcome an enemy that's better equipped than you. That's a bit hard to achieve when we have abilities, weapons, and mods that allow us to crush most level 30-40 enemies with relative ease.

I've said this before, but if you all want some real challenge, you're going to be have to be willing to give up some power to get that challenge. 

How does this relate to the Wukong Rework?

Simple.

I want him to be inspired, interesting and varied. I want him to be able to play well with other Frames and be a team asset. Most importantly, I don't want him to be able to go into Hydron or ESO and say "Hey guys! That's a really nice fight you have going on there. It would be a real shame if I clicked this ability and deleted more than half the enemies on the map, wouldn't it?"  Because this is what Frames like Saryn and Equinox do on a regular basis and we don't need another damn map clearer.

or they make it so enemies can give you a thrashing period. 

Like if wolf was able to grab players and perform finishers on them like we can most enemies it simulates the sense of danger. If he could smack abilities back at us with his hammer. Simple dumb stuff like that. 

Easiest way to have difficulty right here. Make the enemies feel like a damn threat for starters. Not platoon of potatoes 1 and 2 getting wiped out by tenno 1.

Mob density is fine and all but quality enemies > quantitative enemies. 

Which really boils down to the ai again. The ai for enemies in wf is equal to skyrim guards. They are dumber than bricks.

When you have intelligent enemies and they can still kick your rear inward despite you being able to kill many of them with press of a button. It makes pressing that button less desireable. 

Even more so if enemies aggro snaps directly to them and they become relentlessly bloodthirsty. 

Intelligence + mobs in general are a very bad thing to just jump in mindlessly swinging. *looks everyones first runs through any darksouls game where they get stun locked to death trying to kill a mob at once*

😄

Could even do something so simple as make the enemies prioritize whomever is doing crowd control, nukes fields of their units. Even if we kill them they remember and learn from it. Then again that's mostly ai issue but still it's a pretty simple fix.

Could also just make those abilities do friendly fire so people can't just monkey brain spam them :O

 

Edited by (PS4)chibitonka
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3 hours ago, (PS4)sonicizanagi said:

Yes it will be increased but you will always have better exceptions for stealth, because you can have longer ranged void dashes, invisibility on your warframe, stuns that actually are usable, and inate energy regen how is this even a question? Void mode out performs Wukong's 3 hands down. Also if your doing stealth you aren't always going to be bringing Wukong anyways.

Not always, but sometimes, and that is enough to justify the ability on Wukong. Again, listing all of the features Wukong doesn't have as if this were itself damning is an utterly silly argument, as the only solution this suggests is that you want him to do literally everything every other stealth ability does. Meanwhile, Wukong can fly while stealthed, which no other warframe can do, and that is enough to unlock new opportunities, e.g. the new Jupiter spy vaults.

3 hours ago, (PS4)sonicizanagi said:

Adding a lump some of damage on an ability that is barely even used currently will not do enough and again there are better options like companions or operator mode and I'm bringing up Nidus because he does some of the things Wukong does better than he does an undying ability, damage, and survivability.

... why wouldn't it do enough? Isn't damage in itself a good thing to have? Again, for all your argumentation, the actual underlying argument behind all this just seems to be "I don't personally like it".

3 hours ago, (PS4)sonicizanagi said:

The comment you made on void mode doesn't apply to Loki invisibility and switch teleport along with innate high Sprint, Doesn't Ivara have a Zipline and cloak arrow? Also the argument you make for cloud walker is very weak because all the frames and resources I've listed have trivialized this point you tried to defend.

Had you actually read what I had written before responding to this paragraph, you would have seen that I indeed specifically mentioned Loki. Ivara has zipline arrows, which are slow, and cloak arrows, which she cannot use to give herself a better version of her 3, only cloak allies and static zones. Meanwhile, as said already, Wukong can fly.

3 hours ago, (PS4)sonicizanagi said:

Are you actually kidding me if defy isn't his core is it his 1 that was changed? Was it his 2? That DE themselves stated don't worry about the changes to defy the other abilities will be strengthen enough so you can rely on them more. Which sounds like it's his core ability, I get that your trying to get a more specific answer but this made you sound very ignorant. it's just his core ability with out it he would fall apart like volt with no 3 or Nidus with no 1.

... why would that ever suggest his 2 were to be his core ability? Again, I asked some very simple questions, which you seem rather averse to answering: how is Defy core to Wukong's kit? Why would Wukong fall apart with another ability in its place? The very fact that you yourself acknowledged that you refused to answer these questions, while also feigning offense and accusing me of ignorance, comes off as bizarre and dishonest, and betrays yet another instance of your whole line of argumentation all boiling down to personal preference.

3 hours ago, (PS4)sonicizanagi said:

I'm comparing Wukong to speed and stealth frames because his 3 is a combination of the 2 abilities. He doesn't have to be, it's just will that ability even be worth while after the buff? and just cause he's being reworked doesn't mean he's going to be a perfect embodiment of what people want.

Will it? Maybe, maybe not, but that's something that will come down to numbers, numbers you do not know, yet are still making judgments about. Why do so, then? Also, if Wukong's 3 is a combination of speed and stealth, why then hold it to the standard of it being better than the best pure speed or stealth abilities combined? Surely, the fact that it can do both means it doesn't have to be top-tier at either individually?

3 hours ago, (PS4)sonicizanagi said:

Do you not remember all of the rework fails that kept the frames where they were or took them even lower Ember, Vauban, Hydroid, Nyx,  and Titania. Wukong is now in the same situation Zephyr was in a rework before the prime comes outs.

I do remember the failed reworks... but I also remember the good reworks. Nekros, Saryn, Nezha, Zephyr, Excalibur, Atlas, Limbo, Mag, Oberon, and Volt were all tremendously successful that massively improved the frames. Focusing exclusively on the bad reworks to the exclusion of the good makes you come across as innately biased from the start, and on top of that failing to acknowledge what it was that determined the success or failure of these reworks, namely the amount of effort and depth of change DE was willing to implement, makes for a shallow argument that goes nowhere: are you saying DE should never rework anything because they failed? Are you saying every reworked frame needs to be statistically better at everything it does than every other predecessor just to not be seen as a failure? What is it that you are actually trying to say here?

3 hours ago, (PS4)sonicizanagi said:

Of course it's not released its a WIP that will be going on during the preparation for tennocon I'm going based off what was said and shown.

No, you're not, that is the point: you are acting like you know the numbers already, when by your repeated admission you clearly don't. Despite this, again by your own admission, you still like to act like you know exactly what this new kit's state of balance will be. Again: why? Who are you trying to convince by arguing off of your personal conjecture? The fact that you repeatedly try to weasel out of any question asked of you makes you even less convincing on this matter.

3 hours ago, (PS4)sonicizanagi said:

also the augment argument is half-an-half, it enhanced a move that only let you switch forms so yes people who seek damage would flock to this ability but it's also optional. Wukong's ability is so they have to make it at least appealing and satisfying or it will just be another we'll fix it with an augment instead of actually fixing the ability.

... but the changes are to the baseline abilities, we're told? Not only are you arguing on conjecture, you seem to be arguing based on ideas that do not correspond to what DE have themselves said or shown. What does the ability being "optional" have anything to do with it? By that same token literally any ability is optional, so that much is a non-argument.

3 hours ago, (PS4)sonicizanagi said:

Yes it will have it damage buffed on a exalted weapon yeah I get it will be "strong" but there are literally better weapons out there. Thus this takes away the illusion of strength you have because excluding the exalted weapon any one can do this. "but you can have 2 of them out at the same time" sure that sounds fun to some but to me the spectical of the 4 seems small in it's current iteration.

Better weapons... how? Because if what makes these weapons "better" is simply that they deal more damage... wouldn't a damage buff address that? Again, here it just looks like you're looking for reasons to be mad, instead of trying to genuinely understand what impact these changes could have with the right numbers.

3 hours ago, (PS4)sonicizanagi said:

Yes it would be but we can't say if that is the intended direction they're going for as seen with the clone ability this could be nothing more than an area DE could fall short upon then improve the time it's revisited again. Indeed adding in lore to compliment his kit would please most Wukong players.

It doesn't matter if it's "the intended direction", the mechanic itself has been mentioned and listed as something that will be added to his kit. The fact that there's a perfectly adequate lore explanation for a restriction to Wukong's most powerful ability effectively defeats your claim that it somehow runs against his theme or lore.

3 hours ago, (PS4)sonicizanagi said:

If implemented poorly it will only back- fire that's the only thing I'm worried about.

Literally anything implemented poorly can backfire. There is a difference between mere concern at the potential for something to backfire, and pre-emptively exclaiming that the thing in question is going to backfire without a shred of supporting evidence.

3 hours ago, (PS4)sonicizanagi said:

Melee 3.0 has been in the works for a decent amount of time so getting a bit of it isn't that bad, so I don't know where you got that from.

... because you're complaining about it as if it were a bad thing, even though you admit that it's good when pressed on the matter. As mentioned above, your posts here are marked by this overreaching pessimism that has led you to complain about every single aspect of Wukong's announced rework, even the good bits, which comes across as less of an indictment of DE's planned changes, and more of you simply not liking this rework personally and trying to dress up your feelings in the thinnest veneer of argumentation.

3 hours ago, (PS4)sonicizanagi said:

And the changes they stated weren't bad per say but they don't make me very excited some people like it I personally don't but I also don't get what your saying it's as if you think I hate what they're doing I just find it unimpressive.

Because from the moment you attacked my first post on here, which was aimed at no-one in particular, you've called the new kit "bland and uninspired", have attempted to argue on numerous occasions that the new changes were somehow contradictory to Wukong's "lore" (even though Wukong the frame and Sun Wukong the folklore hero are two different characters), and repeatedly catastrophized said changes by accusing them of nerfing Wukong, even though you have not yet tried his new kit. Your position on the matter is transparent, as is your bias.

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1 hour ago, moostar95 said:

Just don't do anything but run in circles if saryn or nukers do anything. If people want to play for me and I get my reward. What's the issue.

That qualifies as leeching and I'm better than that.

 

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44 minutes ago, MirageKnight said:

That qualifies as leeching and I'm better than that.

 

What missions are you playing to the point where saryns are getting in the way somehow? Only time I run into nukers is eso. A great number of missions can be beaten solo. 

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Please preserve the dipi.
You don't have to do it if WUKONG doesn't have a dip.
Please don't have a cloud walker. It's a technology I've never used before. be of no use

디파이를 보존해주세요.

오공에게는 디파이가 없으면 할필요성이 없는 필수적인 오공의 꽃같은 기술입니다.

Cloud walkers are also infrequently used and are not used.

Give the cloud walker extra power to D.P.I

And replace the Clareham Walker and add the extra wide area technology. I beg you.

클라우드 워커는 사용횟수도 또한 적고 사용을 안합니다.

클라우드 워커에 추가 능력을 디파이에게 해주세요

그리고 클라욷 워커를 교체를해서 추가 할 광역기술을 넣어주세요 부탁드립니다.

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I would like to add my voice to those asking for defy to remain at least in some form. Spawning clones that dies instead of you seems to be the best way of achieving that. You will have to watch how many clones you have remaining and maybe even adjust to a new position every time you die if you switch with your clones with dying.

 

Seems like fun to play and watch, as well as stopping the press 2 to not die.

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1 hour ago, Teridax68 said:

Not always, but sometimes, and that is enough to justify the ability on Wukong. Again, listing all of the features Wukong doesn't have as if this were itself damning is an utterly silly argument, as the only solution this suggests is that you want him to do literally everything every other stealth ability does. Meanwhile, Wukong can fly while stealthed, which no other warframe can do, and that is enough to unlock new opportunities, e.g. the new Jupiter spy vaults

As I can't defend the Jupiter spy mission as PS4 hasn't received the update. Me listing all of the frames frequently chosen for these types of missions are because they have higher appeal than Wukong. Yeah he can fly while stealthed but is that really enough? He can't pass through lasers so that then limits him extremely. why would you pick Wukong? when any other frame is good for the job, stealth is not his job it's a perk for combat that is poor at the moment. Also you can't attack and your invulnerable it pretty unique but not being able to go through lasers which are one of the primary defense in spy missions.

 

1 hour ago, Teridax68 said:

why wouldn't it do enough? Isn't damage in itself a good thing to have? Again, for all your argumentation, the actual underlying argument behind all this just seems to be "I don't personally like it".

Yes, damage is a good thing but if put on and ability used for utility and mobility while the whole kit is focused and offense it seems kinda redundant unless it has something else besides crit if they don't go any higher than 30% I'm pretty sure it will still be the under used ability.

 

1 hour ago, Teridax68 said:

Had you actually read what I had written before responding to this paragraph, you would have seen that I indeed specifically mentioned Loki. Ivara has zipline arrows, which are slow, and cloak arrows, which she cannot use to give herself a better version of her 3, only cloak allies and static zones. Meanwhile, as said already, Wukong can fly.

I have read what you stated and I'm still not seeing the point in the defense you Loki straight forward stealth, Ivara slow and meticulous stealth, Wukong has stealth but misses parts that make it vital to the mission and has no impactful CC for stealth will have mobility after the rework, They all have there appeal but Wukong is lacking.

 

2 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

why would that ever suggest his 2 were to be his core ability? Again, I asked some very simple questions, which you seem rather averse to answering: how is Defy core to Wukong's kit? Why would Wukong fall apart with another ability in its place? The very fact that you yourself acknowledged that you refused to answer these questions, while also feigning offense and accusing me of ignorance, comes off as bizarre and dishonest, and betrays yet another instance of your whole line of argumentation all boiling down to personal preference.

The core ability is the 2 Wukong has a small health, shield, and armor pool which the 2 covers for with 75% health back on death. Also the constant energy drains on the other abilities were supported by the energy multipler with out the 2 everything would be worse on Wukong while having poor abilities he had a great energy economy. I didn't list this cause I got tired of walls of text, And people who play Wukong would know why the 2 is the core ability. But since this is changing, after rework this will still be his ability core. Anything else you have to say about this?

 

2 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Will it? Maybe, maybe not, but that's something that will come down to numbers, numbers you do not know, yet are still making judgments about. Why do so, then? Also, if Wukong's 3 is a combination of speed and stealth, why then hold it to the standard of it being better than the best pure speed or stealth abilities combined? Surely, the fact that it can do both means it doesn't have to be top-tier at either individually?

There are only 3 possibilities that can happen and I'm feeling it might end up poorly it doesn't mean I'm not open-minded enough to acknowledge there work it's just how I feel. I agree Because it should either outclass one side while giving some benefits of the other half, Not be inferior to both mobility and stealth or at least be somewhere close to that.

 

2 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

I do remember the failed reworks... but I also remember the good reworks. Nekros, Saryn, Nezha, Zephyr, Excalibur, Atlas, Limbo, Mag, Oberon, and Volt were all tremendously successful that massively improved the frames. Focusing exclusively on the bad reworks to the exclusion of the good makes you come across as innately biased from the start, and on top of that failing to acknowledge what it was that determined the success or failure of these reworks, namely the amount of effort and depth of change DE was willing to implement, makes for a shallow argument that goes nowhere: are you saying DE should never rework anything because they failed? Are you saying every reworked frame needs to be statistically better at everything it does than every other predecessor just to not be seen as a failure? What is it that you are actually trying to say here?

The negatives are far more prominent to anyone because that usually affects a group of people who will always be cautious of reworks. Good reworks are noted but are usually only done by Pablo which also polarized the community because if Pablo doesn't do the rework is it even worth it. I understand what your saying because it only appears that I'm complaining but I will state it as good if it actually improved on the expectation I had. No as I stated beforehand every Warframe must have appeal, If it doesn't no matter how hard you buff an Nerf others this will always happen. 

 

2 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

No, you're not, that is the point: you are acting like you know the numbers already, when by your repeated admission you clearly don't. Despite this, again by your own admission, you still like to act like you know exactly what this new kit's state of balance will be. Again: why? Who are you trying to convince by arguing off of your personal conjecture? The fact that you repeatedly try to weasel out of any question asked of you makes you even less convincing on this matter

They didn't state any numbers so of course I won't have any I even watch over it multiple to see if what I was saying is correct while also giving my assumption. How am I weasling out of the questions asked? When I'm answering this back and forth when I simply could have abandoned it. Again I've watched the devstream multiple times now, And exactly as I said I gave my opinions and assumption to what was shown.

 

3 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

but the changes are to the baseline abilities, we're told? Not only are you arguing on conjecture, you seem to be arguing based on ideas that do not correspond to what DE have themselves said or shown. What does the ability being "optional" have anything to do with it? By that same token literally any ability is optional, so that much is a non-argument.

Augments are in many cases OPTIONAL they provide greatly added benefits that aren't necessary to the frame. If a baseline ability isn't desirable it cripples the frame by reducing their survivability and utility.

nice optional perk ≠ mandatory survivability

what you stated doesn't make sense. willfully crippling the Warframe in the current WIP is just counter productive maybe you misread what I wrote? All I was saying is it should be half as good.

3 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Better weapons... how? Because if what makes these weapons "better" is simply that they deal more damage... wouldn't a damage buff address that? Again, here it just looks like you're looking for reasons to be mad, instead of trying to genuinely understand what impact these changes could have with the right numbers

I can't really say because I don't know how far they are going to buff the 4 but the supplemental stats like innate status procs, IPS,rivens and the stance could still out class Wukong's 4

 

3 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

It doesn't matter if it's "the intended direction", the mechanic itself has been mentioned and listed as something that will be added to his kit. The fact that there's a perfectly adequate lore explanation for a restriction to Wukong's most powerful ability effectively defeats your claim that it somehow runs against his theme or lore

But if it's not the intended effect doesn't that mean it was unintentional and it will offer up a result not wanted. I'm fine with it as for but If following lore he must gain some bonuses for building up this meter if not then it still falls short.

 

3 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

because you're complaining about it as if it were a bad thing, even though you admit that it's good when pressed on the matter. As mentioned above, your posts here are marked by this overreaching pessimism that has led you to complain about every single aspect of Wukong's announced rework, even the good bits, which comes across as less of an indictment of DE's planned changes, and more of you simply not liking this rework personally and trying to dress up your feelings in the thinnest veneer of argumentation.

 I'm not being pressed I went over the broad aspects of what I disliked and my assumption. again when questioned you wanted more details so I went an explained in greater detail of my opinions which yes are negatives but I do acknowledge the overall positives so there is nothing to hide and there is nothing to argue it's just fact and overall personal taste.

 

4 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Because from the moment you attacked my first post on here, which was aimed at no-one in particular, you've called the new kit "bland and uninspired", have attempted to argue on numerous occasions that the new changes were somehow contradictory to Wukong's "lore" (even though Wukong the frame and Sun Wukong the folklore hero are two different characters), and repeatedly catastrophized said changes by accusing them of nerfing Wukong, even though you have not yet tried his new kit. Your position on the matter is transparent, as is your bias

Which to me is bland, the only thing I haven't seen is defy so I can't judge. which if defy doesn't at least restore health and if the 4 doesn't provide buffs then it will just be a vague reimagining.  Sun Wukong was the direct inspiration for Wukong and was made to draw in a crowd that was familiar to Sun Wukong's lore so it doesn't really matter if they are different characters he's made as a version that would be relatable to the audience. Of course nobody tried the kit besides D.E has so all we have are opinionated takes on whats to come, I don't see what the problem is.

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5 hours ago, SiamDuke said:

Please preserve the dipi.

I'd love to know what was translated to dipi.

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8 hours ago, (PS4)sonicizanagi said:

As I can't defend the Jupiter spy mission as PS4 hasn't received the update. Me listing all of the frames frequently chosen for these types of missions are because they have higher appeal than Wukong. Yeah he can fly while stealthed but is that really enough? He can't pass through lasers so that then limits him extremely. why would you pick Wukong? when any other frame is good for the job, stealth is not his job it's a perk for combat that is poor at the moment. Also you can't attack and your invulnerable it pretty unique but not being able to go through lasers which are one of the primary defense in spy missions.

How is stealth "not his job" if he has a stealth ability? Again, those other abilities have a higher appeal than Wukong's now, because currently Wukong's 3 is slow and has an excessive drain. Yet again, not only are you arguing off of ignorance, as you yourself admit you haven't even tried the new tileset (in which he works well due to its verticality), you seem to be under the impression that a frame can only be good at a game mode if it is given the ability to completely trivialize any and all gameplay related to that mode. It is precisely this kind of request that makes me glad most players don't have a hand in designing the game.

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Yes, damage is a good thing but if put on and ability used for utility and mobility while the whole kit is focused and offense it seems kinda redundant unless it has something else besides crit if they don't go any higher than 30% I'm pretty sure it will still be the under used ability.

How is it "redundant" if one of Wukong's current problems is that his damage is underwhelming? How does you fearing that he'll be given some excessively low crit chance have any bearing on his actual rework as we currently know it?

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I have read what you stated and I'm still not seeing the point in the defense you Loki straight forward stealth, Ivara slow and meticulous stealth, Wukong has stealth but misses parts that make it vital to the mission and has no impactful CC for stealth will have mobility after the rework, They all have there appeal but Wukong is lacking.

But that's the point: Wukong is lacking in this respect... to you. He has some clear-cut problems right now that everyone can point to, namely the boring ability that is Defy, and the excessive limitations to his 3, but his 3 nonetheless offers a desirable advantage that has the potential to offer unique gameplay in the right situation. The point of my "defense" is that Wukong's isn't bad because it's somehow fundamentally unusable, but simply because it is weak, a problem that is being remediated. Meanwhile, your entire attack of his 3 seems to revolve around the fact that it doesn't have literally every single advantage of every single other stealth ability combined, a common thread of your overall critique that makes your position come across as ridiculous and hyperbolic.

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The core ability is the 2 Wukong has a small health, shield, and armor pool which the 2 covers for with 75% health back on death. Also the constant energy drains on the other abilities were supported by the energy multipler with out the 2 everything would be worse on Wukong while having poor abilities he had a great energy economy. I didn't list this cause I got tired of walls of text, And people who play Wukong would know why the 2 is the core ability. But since this is changing, after rework this will still be his ability core. Anything else you have to say about this?

If you're tired of walls of text... why are you continuing to post them? My simple answer to all this is that if DE is changing Wukong's Defy and still keeping him as a tank, then it stands to reason that he is likely to receive the abilities and buffs he needs to accomplish that. Even if he doesn't, increasing his base stats isn't exactly a complicated thing to do. Moreover, how exactly does the Energy "multiplier" benefit Wukong? The only "multiplier" it applies is a reduction to his current Energy, which means that with that and the persistent drain removed, he would have more Energy overall to cast everything else. Yet again, this is an instance of you counting a positive as a negative purely for the sake of your flimsy argument.

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There are only 3 possibilities that can happen and I'm feeling it might end up poorly it doesn't mean I'm not open-minded enough to acknowledge there work it's just how I feel. I agree Because it should either outclass one side while giving some benefits of the other half, Not be inferior to both mobility and stealth or at least be somewhere close to that.

But you're not open-minded at all, as evidenced even here: even as you claim to be "open-minded", in the very next sentence you exclaim that you will only be satisfied if Wukong's 3 outright exceeds every other competitor in either pure speed of stealth, on top of providing additional perks. In other words, you explicitly want Wukong to power creep the game, and will consider his rework a failure if that doesn't happen. It is therefore no surprise, then, that you would categorically oppose every single one of his changes that doesn't overbuff him in exactly the ways you want.

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The negatives are far more prominent to anyone because that usually affects a group of people who will always be cautious of reworks.

In other words, some people will focus far more on the negatives than on the positives, sometimes to the exclusion of the positives, as evidenced in your own posts. Why is this DE's problem?

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Good reworks are noted but are usually only done by Pablo which also polarized the community because if Pablo doesn't do the rework is it even worth it.

As noted by the above reworks, many of which weren't done by Pablo, this is categorically false. It is one thing to praise Pablo for his good work, and another entirely to buy so completely into the meme-turned-myth that he's the lord and savior of Warframe as to delude oneself that he is the sole originator of good content. This, too, is a completely shallow that is in no way conducive to intelligent analysis, let alone productive discussion surrounding reworks.

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I understand what your saying because it only appears that I'm complaining but I will state it as good if it actually improved on the expectation I had. No as I stated beforehand every Warframe must have appeal, If it doesn't no matter how hard you buff an Nerf others this will always happen. 

If that is what you want to say, then say it. So far, the only thing you have done is pre-emptively trash a rework that you know far too little about to be making the comments you made. I can absolutely agree with you that healthy skepticism is a valid and justified position, but that is different from assuming a rework is bad before we even know what it looks like.

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They didn't state any numbers so of course I won't have any I even watch over it multiple to see if what I was saying is correct while also giving my assumption. How am I weasling out of the questions asked? When I'm answering this back and forth when I simply could have abandoned it. Again I've watched the devstream multiple times now, And exactly as I said I gave my opinions and assumption to what was shown.

Here are some of the things you have said so far about the rework:

On 2019-05-26 at 7:29 PM, (PS4)sonicizanagi said:

So I'm not seeing your point for acknowledging a part of his lore and praising it (hair of the king) for being in his kit, While defy is in his kit you want to dismiss it. It makes absolutely no sense and with out the ability he would be dead long before he could accomplish anything lore and gameplay wise.

This is you, pre-emptively assuming that without the current Defy Wukong would become unplayable, which requires knowledge of his new abilities that you do not have. Then there's this:

On 2019-05-26 at 7:29 PM, (PS4)sonicizanagi said:

Yes it maybe "unique" turning into a cloud to increase movement in that mode, But how useful is that when you have bullet jumps and defy not very. Oh you get stealth multipliers yes that nice, But why would a tank need that when it only affects a hand full of enemies around  while slowing down gameplay  him yeah very game changing isn't it. Oh but what about the bonus critical chance not really useful when you have an augment for the 4 which will trivialize the 3 to begin with. If you polish a turd it's still a turd so I'm not getting why your defending this poor ability, they are killing his survivability in order to keep this ability around what aren't you understanding. And remember when D.E said they were going to give Wukong a full rework this is just an ability change with a big Nerf and buffs that don't really matter.

This is you calling his 3 fundamentally unplayable regardless of buffs, a stark difference from your current state of backtracking where you've instead resorted to asking for the ability to somehow surpass Volt's Speed, Loki's Invisibility, and Ivara's Prowl augment all at the same time. Then this:

On 2019-05-26 at 7:29 PM, (PS4)sonicizanagi said:

How is effectively killing everything through the wall not boring how is taking any threat and trivializing it for your whole team not boring when you can say the same for wukong's defy. Again it makes no sense and actually the gameplay behind defy is being a tank that takes the blows your team can't, while I don't have a problem with the added aggro to enemies out right nerfing that ability keeps Wukong from being useful. 

This is you outright stating that Wukong's Defy is getting nerfed, in complete ignorance of the actual implementation of the ability. From then, you begin to backtrack as I press you on the matter and challenge your unsubstantiated claims. In short: not only are you continuing to try to weasel out of uncomfortable questions by deflecting out of an answer, you are outright lying about your feigned position, as you have been visibly attacking this rework from the start on the assumption that it would be a nerfed, and have only started to pretend to have based yourself on "what was shown" after a long process of backpedalling. You're not operating on what was shown, you have been accusing this rework of nerfing Wukong despite lacking sufficient knowledge to make such a judgment: again, why are you still even now talking about this new Wukong's balance if you can't know what it will be? What is the point you are trying to make to the general public, if the only thing you have to offer is merely your own feelings, rather than the pretense of more broadly applicable reasoning that you've put up?

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Augments are in many cases OPTIONAL they provide greatly added benefits that aren't necessary to the frame. If a baseline ability isn't desirable it cripples the frame by reducing their survivability and utility.

Again, who's saying Wukong's buffs are being put on augments? Unless I'm mistaken, the announced changes are being applied directly to his base abilities. Pretending that Wukong's buffs will be relegated to augments therefore makes no sense, much less pretending that entire abilities of his will now be restricted to augments.

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nice optional perk ≠ mandatory survivability

... but his 2 is still being made to provide him survivability as a baseline? Where exactly did you get the impression that the new Defy would only make him tanky if he took an augment for it?

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what you stated doesn't make sense. willfully crippling the Warframe in the current WIP is just counter productive maybe you misread what I wrote? All I was saying is it should be half as good.

But what you are saying here makes zero sense: where has there been any indication of DE "wilfully crippling" Wukong? Where have I said anything to that effect? Are you sure you're not the one misunderstanding what I said? Because what I simply said was in response to you calling an entire ability "optional". It is all the weirder that you would say this immediately after claiming that you're only basing yourself on the numbers-free concept DE had listed on dev stream.

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I can't really say because I don't know how far they are going to buff the 4 but the supplemental stats like innate status procs, IPS,rivens and the stance could still out class Wukong's 4

They could... but do they? Again, your bias on the matter is transparent, because instead of acknowledging that Wukong's changes are still WIP and light on details, you're instead jumping to conclusions, the conclusion in question being that Wukong will somehow be even worse than before, or somehow not improved despite DE explicitly stating their intention to improve many of his stats and mechanics. Repeatedly feigning concern here that the buffs may not be enough, when you don't even know how strong the buffs are, simply indicates that you have already made your mind up about disliking Wukong's rework, yet do not want to state that frankly.

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But if it's not the intended effect doesn't that mean it was unintentional and it will offer up a result not wanted. I'm fine with it as for but If following lore he must gain some bonuses for building up this meter if not then it still falls short.

... why? An unintended result can be perfectly satisfactory, more so even than some intentional efforts, and moreover, you are in no position to guess DE's intention with regards to Wukong's upcoming meter and whichever connection to his lore. Also, which part of the lore dictates that Wukong needs to gain bonuses from building up his meter? Again, not only are you repeatedly applying the lore of Sun Wukong, the East Asian folklore character, to Wukong, the warframe with no real lore of its own, you are applying it in the most perplexing, yet superficial manner to argue for a transparent agenda. If you want to invoke "the lore", then cite specifics, particularly as using the lore as a means of affecting Wukong's balance is itself ridiculous. 

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I'm not being pressed I went over the broad aspects of what I disliked and my assumption. again when questioned you wanted more details so I went an explained in greater detail of my opinions which yes are negatives but I do acknowledge the overall positives so there is nothing to hide and there is nothing to argue it's just fact and overall personal taste.

You are yet again deflecting the point here: as mentioned already, and evidenced even within your own post here, you are citing positives of Wukong's rework and framing them as negatives, e.g. the Energy "multiplier" on Defy and its likely removal. It is painfully obvious that you have already made your mind up before this conversation even started, and rather than exercise the healthy skepticism you are currently trying so hard to claim, you have instead chosen to use every rhetorical tactic available to make every single aspect of Wukong's rework appear bad, whether it be by assuming he'll be nerfed without knowing how his numbers are actually changing, invoking "lore" against any change you dislike, or, more disturbingly, selecting objective improvements from his rework and trying to cast them in a negative light. Only when you are challenged on this do you begin to backpedal and claim that you were in fact only exercising reasonable concern, or had a perfectly balanced and open-minded outlook on Wukong's rework all along. This suggests that you are not only heavily biased, but also implicitly acknowledge that your bias is irrational and unjustified, hence the continued backpedalling and denial.

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Which to me is bland, the only thing I haven't seen is defy so I can't judge.

It is bland to you, which is different from trying to claim that Wukong's rework is objectively "bland and uninspired" in an attempt to bash me over the head with your opinion. You are allowed to dislike this rework just as much as I am allowed to be cautiously optimistic about it.

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which if defy doesn't at least restore health and if the 4 doesn't provide buffs then it will just be a vague reimagining.

Didn't you insist a few posts back that Wukong needed a complete ability overhaul? Because from this, it looks more like the only rework you'd consider satisfactory is an extremely specific set of changes you have in mind, which nobody else can possibly know. On that matter, you still have yet to actually explain what kind of kit you'd like to see out of a Wukong rework.

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Sun Wukong was the direct inspiration for Wukong and was made to draw in a crowd that was familiar to Sun Wukong's lore so it doesn't really matter if they are different characters he's made as a version that would be relatable to the audience.

Sure, Wukong obviously draws inspiration from Sun Wukong's rich lore and background, but then which part of his new kit contradicts that? As mentioned already, Hair of the King is more in tune with his lore than virtually any of his other abilities, current or future, yet that hasn't stopped you from hating it. You seem to believe that one can invoke "the lore" to dictate a very specific set of balance and mechanical changes to Wukong, when this sort of methodology absolutely cannot be used to inform anything more than the frame's broad themes, which DE is already looking to satisfy with his new abilities.

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Of course nobody tried the kit besides D.E has so all we have are opinionated takes on whats to come, I don't see what the problem is.

There is a difference between an "opinionated take", and simply talking out of your butt. You are allowed to feel a certain way about Wukong's rework and say that you dislike it, and such an opinion is perfectly valid, but trying to claim that it is objectively bad and a nerf to the frame when you lack the information to make such claims simply makes you a liar.

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14 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

I do remember the failed reworks... but I also remember the good reworks. Nekros, Saryn, Nezha, Zephyr, Excalibur, Atlas, Limbo, Mag, Oberon, and Volt were all tremendously successful

No........NO, NO, NO. Absolutely 100% wrong. Couldn't be more wrong than this.

the office no GIF

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8 minutes ago, (PS4)RenovaKunumaru said:

No........NO, NO, NO. Absolutely 100% wrong. Couldn't be more wrong than this.

the office no GIF

... she was made more popular and desirable, so as far as reworks go, it is a success, whether you like it or not. Is Zephyr in the best state she could be? Unlikely, but the rework did do her a lot of good nonetheless.

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5 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

she was made more popular and desirable, so as far as reworks go, it is a success, whether you like it or not. Is Zephyr in the best state she could be? Unlikely, but the rework did do her a lot of good nonetheless.

Sorry, but this just goes to show how little you played her or even examined what was changed in her "rework". She's virtually the exact same, but carry on with the Wukong. Lets not detract from the discussion. This just hurts your credibility by saying that though.

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6 minutes ago, (PS4)RenovaKunumaru said:

Sorry, but this just goes to show how little you played her or even examined what was changed in her "rework". She's virtually the exact same, but carry on with the Wukong. Lets not detract from the discussion. This just hurts your credibility by saying that though.

... but then where am I wrong? Which changes were detrimental to her, then? Going into hysterics about how Zephyr's rework was a failure for reasons you have yet to specify doesn't really hurt my credibility, so much as it simply makes you look generally unreasonable.

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3 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

How is stealth "not his job" if he has a stealth ability? Again, those other abilities have a higher appeal than Wukong's now, because currently Wukong's 3 is slow and has an excessive drain. Yet again, not only are you arguing off of ignorance, as you yourself admit you haven't even tried the new tileset (in which he works well due to its verticality), you seem to be under the impression that a frame can only be good at a game mode if it is given the ability to completely trivialize any and all gameplay related to that mode. It is precisely this kind of request that makes me glad most players don't have a hand in designing the game.

Frankly the update hasn't came to consoles yet so I can't defend that point but let me state this again an ability that doesn't make you invisible to lasers is a weak stealth ability for now if doesn't every matter if he has a speed buff if the character in question cannot operate fully as many do in stealth game play then he is still severely lacking in stealth but if the appeal of flight while stealth is a even trade off for you then so be it.

 

3 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

How is it "redundant" if one of Wukong's current problems is that his damage is underwhelming? How does you fearing that he'll be given some excessively low crit chance have any bearing on his actual rework as we currently know it?

Because it's used for utility and mobility if any frame is suffering from poor damage output you don't just slap damage on everything you make sure it's a cohesive kit. again that's why augments are a thing to fill roles that would be neat if explored upon.

 

3 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

The point of my "defense" is that Wukong's isn't bad because it's somehow fundamentally unusable, but simply because it is weak, a problem that is being remediated. Meanwhile, your entire attack of his 3 seems to revolve around the fact that it doesn't have literally every single advantage of every single other stealth ability combined, a common thread of your overall critique that makes your position come across as ridiculous and hyperbolic.

His stealth game play is unique you get invulnerability, moderate invisibility, and flight in the upcoming rework he gets increased speed and a crit bonus upon exit. Which is nice and all but he has no CC an cannot attack in this mode so that's the trade off. I'm not mad he's not like other frames, he's just unfavorable for current spy mission besides Jupiter's assuming what you said was correct. Invisibility only does two things makes you unseen and added stealth multiplers on damage, If anything Octavia and Ivara are the only ones who bring more to the table with their abilities. long durations of Warframes buffs while invisibility and then a pick pocket and laser immunity, I'd say its not unreasonable to ask for laser immunity when you can turn into mist.

 

3 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

But you're not open-minded at all, as evidenced even here: even as you claim to be "open-minded", in the very next sentence you exclaim that you will only be satisfied if Wukong's 3 outright exceeds every other competitor in either pure speed of stealth, on top of providing additional perks. In other words, you explicitly want Wukong to power creep the game, and will consider his rework a failure if that doesn't happen. It is therefore no surprise, then, that you would categorically oppose every single one of his changes that doesn't overbuff him in exactly the ways you want.

How does wanting Wukong to be good at stealth or mobility instill a power creep in to the game stealth is the only part of the game that requires either of those abilities to be decent in some regard. and how am I not open-minded I do acknowledge the positive so this is accusation is very annoying to say the least.

3 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

As noted by the above reworks, many of which weren't done by Pablo, this is categorically false. It is one thing to praise Pablo for his good work, and another entirely to buy so completely into the meme-turned-myth that he's the lord and savior of Warframe as to delude oneself that he is the sole originator of good content. This, too, is a completely shallow that is in no way conducive to intelligent analysis, let alone productive discussion surrounding reworks.

But can you show me all the frames that have had reworks while including Pablo?

All of the frames haven't been reworked Pablo yes, but most of the best received frames and reworks are Pablo's. Not all are only because of him, Scott did a good job on the recent frames but the buffs and nerfs on other hand have been all over the place because it was left to other people.

3 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

This is you, pre-emptively assuming that without the current Defy Wukong would become unplayable, which requires knowledge of his new abilities that you do not have. Then there's this:

This statement was in response to you and your repeat claims of defy making no sense being here and being an ability that is worth using, while accepting hair of the king with no regards while the added. change of the 1 was nice for everyone but, the problem of adding an ability that plays it's self is almost the same as the problem with defy, But it's not even the 4 it's the 1.

 

3 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

This is you calling his 3 fundamentally unplayable regardless of buffs, a stark difference from your current state of backtracking where you've instead resorted to asking for the ability to somehow surpass Volt's Speed, Loki's Invisibility, and Ivara's Prowl augment all at the same time. Then this:

And it is it out classed in many regards and it was just a 2nd version of the 2 that let's you fly and stealth which isn't really necessary but for most game modes. But a game mode that would benefit from this is spy, It's mediocre at best acknowledging the buffs it really doesn't help him unless it ties into his kit. Giving its ability an overall change besides crit and this is assuming the duration bar that was shown is like wisp you can't change the duration, but speed will be increased not only will this ability still be slow because of 3d movement. It still a poor ability in comparison to the kit

 

3 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

This is you outright stating that Wukong's Defy is getting nerfed, in complete ignorance of the actual implementation of the ability. From then, you begin to backtrack as I press you on the matter and challenge your unsubstantiated claims. In short: not only are you continuing to try to weasel out of uncomfortable questions by deflecting out of an answer, you are outright lying about your feigned position, as you have been visibly attacking this rework from the start on the assumption that it would be a nerfed, and have only started to pretend to have based yourself on "what was shown" after a long process of backpedalling. You're not operating on what was shown, you have been accusing this rework of nerfing Wukong despite lacking sufficient knowledge to make such a judgment: again, why are you still even now talking about this new Wukong's balance if you can't know what it will be? What is the point you are trying to make to the general public, if the only thing you have to offer is merely your own feelings, rather than the pretense of more broadly applicable reasoning that you've put up?

How is acknowledging and making arguments for both sides of the ability weasling. but ultimately this ability is nerfed it's has not been stated to give back health which is a Nerf and also being on duration is good overall so I'm not seeing the problem

 

3 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Again, who's saying Wukong's buffs are being put on augments? Unless I'm mistaken, the announced changes are being applied directly to his base abilities. Pretending that Wukong's buffs will be relegated to augments therefore makes no sense, much less pretending that entire abilities of his will now be restricted to augments.

This argument wasn't about putting his buffs on augments it was about making the abilities appealing which you misinterpreted as me saying they are. adding these buffs to augments I was saying augments are optional parts of a build current abilities MUST be cohesive or else the frame isn't at full potential that was all I was saying. Also the ability in question was cloud walker not defy I don't know if you quoted the wrong thing but if you didn't you put this statement out of context purposefully.

 

3 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

But what you are saying here makes zero sense: where has there been any indication of DE "wilfully crippling" Wukong? Where have I said anything to that effect? Are you sure you're not the one misunderstanding what I said? Because what I simply said was in response to you calling an entire ability "optional". It is all the weirder that you would say this immediately after claiming that you're only basing yourself on the numbers-free concept DE had listed on dev stream

If you read this was still about the cloud walker statements so this doesn't really apply. But if an ability is not appealing this ability will be passed up thus crippling the frames full potential. yes everything is optional but the cohesion of the abilities is necessary for a kit choosing not to use isn't D.E's fault but it will be there fault if it doesn't mesh well  to begin with, that was the point you misinterpreted

 

3 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

They could... but do they? Again, your bias on the matter is transparent, because instead of acknowledging that Wukong's changes are still WIP and light on details, you're instead jumping to conclusions, the conclusion in question being that Wukong will somehow be even worse than before, or somehow not improved despite DE explicitly stating their intention to improve many of his stats and mechanics. Repeatedly feigning concern here that the buffs may not be enough, when you don't even know how strong the buffs are, simply indicates that you have already made your mind up about disliking Wukong's rework, yet do not want to state that frankly

... Unless they go the route of giving Wukong scaling which they didn't say. Or unless his has some primer and damage amplifier which he wasn't stated or shown to have. Or if this buff doesn't go up at least 200% then a regular melee will surpass his exalted unless this melee 3.0 gives him a stance that is superior to any of the current stances. then this ability isn't much for now it's neat but it could use more because of the whole meter thing, but if he doesn't get buffs and it's just a restraint, he will be out classed by a regular melee.

 

4 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

You are yet again deflecting the point here: as mentioned already, and evidenced even within your own post here, you are citing positives of Wukong's rework and framing them as negatives, e.g. the Energy "multiplier" on Defy and its likely removal. It is painfully obvious that you have already made your mind up before this conversation even started, and rather than exercise the healthy skepticism you are currently trying so hard to claim, you have instead chosen to use every rhetorical tactic available to make every single aspect of Wukong's rework appear bad, whether it be by assuming he'll be nerfed without knowing how his numbers are actually changing, invoking "lore" against any change you dislike, or, more disturbingly, selecting objective improvements from his rework and trying to cast them in a negative light. Only when you are challenged on this do you begin to backpedal and claim that you were in fact only exercising reasonable concern, or had a perfectly balanced and open-minded outlook on Wukong's rework all along. This suggests that you are not only heavily biased, but also implicitly acknowledge that your bias is irrational and unjustified, hence the continued backpedalling and denial

I guess that is how you feel about but I actually am keeping eye out for the things you say in defense of this topic in positive light and I will acknowledge them so I have no qualms.

 

4 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

why? An unintended result can be perfectly satisfactory, more so even than some intentional efforts, and moreover, you are in no position to guess DE's intention with regards to Wukong's upcoming meter and whichever connection to his lore. Also, which part of the lore dictates that Wukong needs to gain bonuses from building up his meter? Again, not only are you repeatedly applying the lore of Sun Wukong, the East Asian folklore character, to Wukong, the warframe with no real lore of its own, you are applying it in the most perplexing, yet superficial manner to argue for a transparent agenda. If you want to invoke "the lore", then cite specifics, particularly as using the lore as a means of affecting Wukong's balance is itself ridiculous. 

Yeah like the recently nerfed loot drops even though it was completely satisfactory and everyone liked it, it was then revoked because that was not the intended effect or how about the chroma vex armor debacle where it perfectly fine where he was but was toned down because D.E didn't want eidolons to get 1 shot but they still do regardless. Implementing it correctly will save energy from running unnecessary hurdles which you seem intent they do anyway and it was intended for them to leave it blank because they just imprint the general idea of Sun Wukong for the audience.

 

4 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Didn't you insist a few posts back that Wukong needed a complete ability overhaul? Because from this, it looks more like the only rework you'd consider satisfactory is an extremely specific set of changes you have in mind, which nobody else can possibly know. On that matter, you still have yet to actually explain what kind of kit you'd like to see out of a Wukong rework.

Oh yeah I actually forgot about that sorry about that.

 

4 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

There is a difference between an "opinionated take", and simply talking out of your butt. You are allowed to feel a certain way about Wukong's rework and say that you dislike it, and such an opinion is perfectly valid, but trying to claim that it is objectively bad and a nerf to the frame when you lack the information to make such claims simply makes you a liar.

But I'm pretty sure the only thing wrong about my take was the energy multipler portion. Everything else is legitimately a fair point so talking out of my butt is far from it, Objectively the rework isn't bad it's pretty tame but if they didn't state that it doesn't possess then it is fair to call some points a nerf or buff.

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On 2019-05-24 at 5:27 PM, (PS4)sonicizanagi said:

What I'm trying to accomplish with this kit is to make Wukong a fun to use frame, While also offering more to his teammates and giving more variety to his kit

Passive)- Monkey king Wukong has erased his name from the book of Life and death and cannot die anymore

1.) - Brutalize Wukong summons his signature weapon from behind enemies shoving them closer if cast twice Wukong take the pole and swings it spit comes crashing down multiplying all damage for every enemy 2X

Wanted to give Wukong a simple ability that people wouldn't mind using and functions similarly to Nezha's 2 while also being to do decent damage

2.) - Defience Everytime Wukong prepares to fall in battle his allies send him aid to give him time to regain his strength actives 7 times before cycling, upon "death" Wukong boasts to aggro enemies they lose accuracy and allies are rallied boosting shields and health

This ability was kinda difficult to do something with, but I thought it would be a great self buffing and mild aggro ability it rewards soaking up damage for the team and aiding them while giving him cycled buff kinda like Octavia they go in the order of increased attack,  increased ability, disarming, movement speed, reload speed, damage reduction and armor increase.

3.) - Heaven's havoc Wukong summons the elements with his mastery of magic he summons wind to lift his enemies in the air to be set aflame only to be impaled on spires of ice

This is a CC ability that thrives on duration to do more damage it has stages as it decays it goes into the next attack so if enemies are hit with the initial cast they are then automatically triggered to go into the next phase of the ability this will be an are around Wukong fire stuns and does tick damage, wind damage strips armor, and the ice stores all applied damage for a final attack.

4.) - King's wrath the move still functions as primal fury but markes enemies for every 3rd mark activated wukong's 1 and 3 strength is boosted by .25 of damage collected from the stacks collected from marks

This ability will have an increase in range but it supposed to be an amp like Excalibur's and Octavia's 4

i would like criticism but please be detailed about it

 

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17 hours ago, moostar95 said:

What missions are you playing to the point where saryns are getting in the way somehow? Only time I run into nukers is eso. A great number of missions can be beaten solo. 

You seem to be under the impression that we want to run solo que in a co-op game

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3 hours ago, (PS4)sonicizanagi said:

Frankly the update hasn't came to consoles yet so I can't defend that point but let me state this again an ability that doesn't make you invisible to lasers is a weak stealth ability for now if doesn't every matter if he has a speed buff if the character in question cannot operate fully as many do in stealth game play then he is still severely lacking in stealth but if the appeal of flight while stealth is a even trade off for you then so be it.

Loki's Invisibility does not go through lasers, and it's still the strongest stealth ability in the game. The entire purpose of stealth does not boil down to literally just trivializing certain Spy missions, and it takes an extreme degree of tunnel vision to frame it as such.

3 hours ago, (PS4)sonicizanagi said:

Because it's used for utility and mobility if any frame is suffering from poor damage output you don't just slap damage on everything you make sure it's a cohesive kit. again that's why augments are a thing to fill roles that would be neat if explored upon.

... but how is it not cohesive? The damage buff is meant to follow after the utility and mobility, as part of regular play on a frame that uses weapons for damage, so what's the problem with having it, again?

3 hours ago, (PS4)sonicizanagi said:

His stealth game play is unique you get invulnerability, moderate invisibility, and flight in the upcoming rework he gets increased speed and a crit bonus upon exit. Which is nice and all but he has no CC an cannot attack in this mode so that's the trade off. I'm not mad he's not like other frames, he's just unfavorable for current spy mission besides Jupiter's assuming what you said was correct. Invisibility only does two things makes you unseen and added stealth multiplers on damage, If anything Octavia and Ivara are the only ones who bring more to the table with their abilities. long durations of Warframes buffs while invisibility and then a pick pocket and laser immunity, I'd say its not unreasonable to ask for laser immunity when you can turn into mist.

... he has his stun, and is getting a taunt. How does this not qualify as CC again? Why are we judging Wukong's entire effectiveness as a frame entirely around trivializing Spy? Neither Octavia nor Ivara are durable, so while they are certainly capable of doing a lot, Wukong has similar potential versatility thanks to his status as a tank capable of stealth, itself a unique combination. Framing invisibility as "only" making the player unseen and adding stealth multipliers, as if either of these were weak, itself suggests a complete lack of understanding of the power behind stealth in Warframe.

3 hours ago, (PS4)sonicizanagi said:

How does wanting Wukong to be good at stealth or mobility instill a power creep in to the game stealth is the only part of the game that requires either of those abilities to be decent in some regard. and how am I not open-minded I do acknowledge the positive so this is accusation is very annoying to say the least.

"Good at stealth or mobility" is not the same as "best among all frames in at least one of them while also having the other", though you have been framing the two as equivalent. It is this ludicrously high standard you are setting, which has made you pre-emptively call Wukong's rework a failure for apparently not meeting it, that demonstrates a lack of open-mindedness. 

3 hours ago, (PS4)sonicizanagi said:

But can you show me all the frames that have had reworks while including Pablo?

All of the frames haven't been reworked Pablo yes, but most of the best received frames and reworks are Pablo's. Not all are only because of him, Scott did a good job on the recent frames but the buffs and nerfs on other hand have been all over the place because it was left to other people.

... what point does this make, again? Pablo making good reworks does not make him the only one to make good reworks, as has already been proven, and you still trying to argue this even as you admit that he's not the only one to rework frames properly is utterly bizarre.

3 hours ago, (PS4)sonicizanagi said:

This statement was in response to you and your repeat claims of defy making no sense being here and being an ability that is worth using, while accepting hair of the king with no regards while the added. change of the 1 was nice for everyone but, the problem of adding an ability that plays it's self is almost the same as the problem with defy, But it's not even the 4 it's the 1.

It does not matter; you said what you said, which is different from what you are claiming to have said. As has already been addressed in that part of the conversation, Wukong's current Defy is practically the very definition of power without gameplay, meanwhile Hair of the King at least has some potential for gameplay thanks to the range alternation and synergy with his 4. If your answer to this was to call the new Defy a nerf, that still means you accused the rework of nerfing Wukong before you knew what the actual balancing was. QED.

3 hours ago, (PS4)sonicizanagi said:

And it is it out classed in many regards and it was just a 2nd version of the 2 that let's you fly and stealth which isn't really necessary but for most game modes. But a game mode that would benefit from this is spy, It's mediocre at best acknowledging the buffs it really doesn't help him unless it ties into his kit. Giving its ability an overall change besides crit and this is assuming the duration bar that was shown is like wisp you can't change the duration, but speed will be increased not only will this ability still be slow because of 3d movement. It still a poor ability in comparison to the kit

... but not a nerf, which is what you claimed. Yet again, even now you are still making assumptions as to the future power of his 3, which from what we've been told is getting buffed, not nerfed. As mentioned already above in this exchange, Wukong's 3 isn't fundamentally unplayable, it's merely too slow, and regurgitating the same debunked argument when it has not only been addressed, but is not even relevant in the context of you making balance judgments beyond your possible knowledge, itself comes across as a pointless attempt at distracting from the matter at hand.

3 hours ago, (PS4)sonicizanagi said:

How is acknowledging and making arguments for both sides of the ability weasling.

Refusing to answer direct and pertinent questions, and instead choosing to deflect and misrepresent the argument, is weaselling. You are continuing to weasel even now, by repeatedly, conspicuously refusing to answer what was asked of you, namely a) why are you making judgments based on information you don't have? And b) how are you hoping to convince anyone when making this argument? As has just been shown above, you are not, in fact, "making arguments for both sides", you have patently chosen the extreme fringe of one side, and have resorted to fabricating information outright in an attempt to force it upon others.

3 hours ago, (PS4)sonicizanagi said:

but ultimately this ability is nerfed it's has not been stated to give back health which is a Nerf and also being on duration is good overall so I'm not seeing the problem

... are you deliberately trying to sabotage your own argument? Even as you repeatedly insist that you're not operating on conjecture at all, here you are, arguing on conjecture, and trying to tell me that DE not explicitly listing every mechanic getting altered means Wukong is not only going to lose those unmentioned mechanics, but that all of this will result in a net nerf. Again, how exactly are you expecting to convince anyone when your arguments here so clearly grasp at straws? If you're not "seeing the problem", why are you acting like there's a problem all the time?

3 hours ago, (PS4)sonicizanagi said:

This argument wasn't about putting his buffs on augments it was about making the abilities appealing which you misinterpreted as me saying they are. adding these buffs to augments I was saying augments are optional parts of a build current abilities MUST be cohesive or else the frame isn't at full potential that was all I was saying. Also the ability in question was cloud walker not defy I don't know if you quoted the wrong thing but if you didn't you put this statement out of context purposefully.

If this was the argument you were making all along, how come it's so utterly irrelevant to anything that had been said right before? At literally no point in this thread did I ever comment on changes to Wukong's augments, or imply that some of his buffs were being put on his augments: I never argued that abilities shouldn't be cohesive either, so there would be strictly no point to lecturing me on kit coherence when I had at no point claimed otherwise. All of this feels like yet another of your attempts at backtracking from a prior mistake.

3 hours ago, (PS4)sonicizanagi said:

If you read this was still about the cloud walker statements so this doesn't really apply. But if an ability is not appealing this ability will be passed up thus crippling the frames full potential. yes everything is optional but the cohesion of the abilities is necessary for a kit choosing not to use isn't D.E's fault but it will be there fault if it doesn't mesh well  to begin with, that was the point you misinterpreted

So you did in fact understand my point, you just tried to confuse the argument for lack of a cogent answer. Got it. As it stands, there is nothing suggesting Wukong's new 3 will be unappealing, especially considering its buffs, so assuming that it will be yet again points to you arguing based on imaginary numbers you've made up in your head, rather than actual reality. My very simple point here was that in an ideal world where every warframe is a toolbox suited for a variety of situations, every ability should be "optional" in the sense that it should be used because the player decides to, and so because some interesting use case has arisen. Calling an ability "optional" should therefore not be particularly controversial, particularly since the active nature of abilities means they are in fact elective options. However, the fact that you seem to view "optional" abilities as a negative, while also defending Wukong's current Defy to the death, suggests you consider abilities to be good only insofar as they are mandatory for the frame to do anything at all, which is itself a rubbish design philosophy.

3 hours ago, (PS4)sonicizanagi said:

... Unless they go the route of giving Wukong scaling which they didn't say.

Oh, so now Wukong will only be good if his rework lets him ignore armor or health? How would a damage buff to his weapons not give him more scaling? How is this any of this relevant to the point you are answering, aside from the fact that you are demonstrating my criticism of your rhetoric to the letter?

3 hours ago, (PS4)sonicizanagi said:

Or unless his has some primer and damage amplifier which he wasn't stated or shown to have.

You mean aside from the literal damage buff that was announced to be added to his 3?

3 hours ago, (PS4)sonicizanagi said:

Or if this buff doesn't go up at least 200% then a regular melee will surpass his exalted unless this melee 3.0 gives him a stance that is superior to any of the current stances.

And 200% is the magic number because... ?

3 hours ago, (PS4)sonicizanagi said:

then this ability isn't much for now it's neat but it could use more because of the whole meter thing, but if he doesn't get buffs and it's just a restraint, he will be out classed by a regular melee.

... except the ability was explicitly said to have its damage buffed. For someone so ready to pounce on DE for supposedly nerfing Wukong's self-healing simply by not explicitly mentioning that it was staying in the dev stream, you seem to be much more forgetful when it comes to remembering the actual buffs they're planning on giving him.

3 hours ago, (PS4)sonicizanagi said:

I guess that is how you feel about but I actually am keeping eye out for the things you say in defense of this topic in positive light and I will acknowledge them so I have no qualms.

As evidenced by your literal previous paragraph, you're not acknowledging anything at all, and it is your repeated ignorance of what I am directly telling you that has been continually validating my criticisms of your argumentation. You only selectively pay attention to what is being said, focus exclusively on the negatives while outright ignoring the positives or spinning them in a negative light, and try to redirect conversation entirely when made to admit that you were wrong. The very fact that you attacked my post, which itself aimed for actual moderation by citing facts and expressing both hope and concerns for the rework, shows that aiming for a balanced take on Wukong's changes was never your concern.

3 hours ago, (PS4)sonicizanagi said:

Yeah like the recently nerfed loot drops even though it was completely satisfactory and everyone liked it, it was then revoked because that was not the intended effect

DE very explicitly said that Desecrate + Pilfering Swarm was working as intended, they just decided to change their design philosophy and implement changes accordingly because they didn't like how the combination was affecting certain loot runs. The change was certainly unpopular (and for good reason), but wasn't the result of DE "fixing" some bug or unintended interaction; it was DE putting their foot down on an interaction they knew about for a long time and were fine with until just recently.

3 hours ago, (PS4)sonicizanagi said:

or how about the chroma vex armor debacle where it perfectly fine where he was but was toned down because D.E didn't want eidolons to get 1 shot but they still do regardless.

Chroma's Vex Armor changes were primarily aimed at nerfing his durability, not his damage. As you said, Chroma could one-shot Eidolons before and after, so that didn't change; what changed was that his armor no longer multiplied to such an insane degree as to make him practically immortal. He's still tough, but he can die. Again, this was a change in intention, not some fix.

3 hours ago, (PS4)sonicizanagi said:

Implementing it correctly will save energy from running unnecessary hurdles which you seem intent they do anyway and it was intended for them to leave it blank because they just imprint the general idea of Sun Wukong for the audience.

What is suggesting to you that DE isn't implementing the changes correctly? Again, you are implicitly assuming here that the specifics of DE's implementation aren't correct, despite not knowing what those specifics are: you are, yet again, assuming the worst.

3 hours ago, (PS4)sonicizanagi said:

But I'm pretty sure the only thing wrong about my take was the energy multipler portion. Everything else is legitimately a fair point so talking out of my butt is far from it, Objectively the rework isn't bad it's pretty tame but if they didn't state that it doesn't possess then it is fair to call some points a nerf or buff.

It is interesting to see how much more moderate your position has become after being challenged on your claims. As it stands, it is indeed fair to call specific changes nerfs or buffs based on what they do, but it is not fair to do so based on changes you invented out of the blue, which you have done, as referenced numerous times above, including in my previous post. It is therefore absolutely accurate to say that you have been talking out of your butt, especially since not taking your fabrications for granted seems to have forced you to take a much less extreme position on Wukong's changes.

Onto your proposed rework:

On 2019-05-15 at 9:12 PM, (PS4)sonicizanagi said:

Passive)- Monkey king Wukong has erased his name from the book of Life and death and cannot die anymore

So effectively, the literal same passive I said you'd implement... except I mentioned it as a joke, because the idea a frame that literally cannot die, and so with impunity, is laughably broken. The fact that you would not only fail to see Wukong's current problems as a frame incapable of dying, but take that up to 11 and want to implement it as a passive with seemingly no downtime or Energy drain, speaks volumes as to your design philosophy, and your true expectations regarding any Wukong rework.

On 2019-05-15 at 9:12 PM, (PS4)sonicizanagi said:

1.) - Brutalize Wukong summons his signature weapon from behind enemies shoving them closer if cast twice Wukong take the pole and swings it spit comes crashing down multiplying all damage for every enemy 2X

Wanted to give Wukong a simple ability that people wouldn't mind using and functions similarly to Nezha's 2 while also being to do decent damage

This ability looks fine, and the ability for a tank frame to pull many enemies towards himself I think is one I think deserves to be explored.

On 2019-05-15 at 9:12 PM, (PS4)sonicizanagi said:

2.) - Defience Everytime Wukong prepares to fall in battle his allies send him aid to give him time to regain his strength actives 7 times before cycling, upon "death" Wukong boasts to aggro enemies they lose accuracy and allies are rallied boosting shields and health

This ability was kinda difficult to do something with, but I thought it would be a great self buffing and mild aggro ability it rewards soaking up damage for the team and aiding them while giving him cycled buff kinda like Octavia they go in the order of increased attack,  increased ability, disarming, movement speed, reload speed, damage reduction and armor increase.

So... why are we making Wukong a support frame again? Wukong doesn't need to be a do-everything tanky DPS stealth support CC frame just to be desirable.

On 2019-05-15 at 9:12 PM, (PS4)sonicizanagi said:

3.) - Heaven's havoc Wukong summons the elements with his mastery of magic he summons wind to lift his enemies in the air to be set aflame only to be impaled on spires of ice

This is a CC ability that thrives on duration to do more damage it has stages as it decays it goes into the next attack so if enemies are hit with the initial cast they are then automatically triggered to go into the next phase of the ability this will be an are around Wukong fire stuns and does tick damage, wind damage strips armor, and the ice stores all applied damage for a final attack.

Ah, armor stripping. Because, of course, every frame needs it to be viable. Also, isn't this just a better version of Nezha's 4, both in function and form? This is, by the way, after realizing Nezha's 4 is practically identical in function to Rhino's Stomp.

On 2019-05-15 at 9:12 PM, (PS4)sonicizanagi said:

4.) - King's wrath the move still functions as primal fury but markes enemies for every 3rd mark activated wukong's 1 and 3 strength is boosted by .25 of damage collected from the stacks collected from marks

This ability will have an increase in range but it supposed to be an amp like Excalibur's and Octavia's 4

i would like criticism but please be detailed about it

Having Wukong's combo counter or the like empower him in other ways sounds pretty cool, actually. I'd focus more on extending the range of his Iron Staff much further than he currently is allowed to, but this is still fine.

So overall, I can agree with some of the ideas here, but there's just far too much of this proposed rework that smacks of envy of other frames, in addition to what seems to be an intense desire to make Wukong some kind of in-game Mary Sue. It is one thing to want one's pet frame to be able to do lots of cool stuff, and another entirely to want them to take the best parts of Nezha and Octavia, and have even stronger versions of those, all while being literally immortal. With that passive in combination with that kit, I do not see any way you can possibly ever have a warframe that would be healthy to have in the game, or even all that interesting to those playing him when he's incapable of providing any tension or challenge.

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At first I was expecting a kit overhaul for some reason, but now I am warming up to some of the ideas. I would like to suggest some ideas to make this more interesting.

 

for starters.... move cloud walker to passive slot. Now I know that sounds dumb but hear me out! This passive would be active by holding the jump button while in air. Once activated, Wukong's feet become enveloped in clouds and is able to run in the air. This increases his evasiveness by 60% and reduces enemy accuracy by 60%. The passive would allow the monkey to traverse in the air, use bullet jump to get higher, use air combos and close in on flying enemies. It can also act as a escape card when needing to get out of a cluster of enemies. Yes it removes his stealth capabilities, but 1) we have plenty of other stealth frames that have cooler stealth tricks and 2) when has a monkey based on a mischievous monkey king EVER been known for being stealthy. This version would be much more fitting and would be pretty fun to use.

Hair of the king

Instead of just one clone, maybe we could use 3 clones. In all honesty, I just can't visualize less then 3 monkeys being summoned to help. Almost feels wrong not to have a cluster****** of monkeys causing mayhem.

New ability to replace cloud walker: Shape shift

Since one of Wukong's powers in legend is turning into 72 animals, what if he could turn into some of them? I checked  wiki for animal species in china and there are some good options. My personal favorites are gray wolves, clouded leopards (looks cool and fits what it would be replacing), tigers, rhinos (they have been extinct for almost 100 years though), Pandas,  and heck, maybe a gorilla just for the heck of it. Choosing maybe four of the animals, each could have a different aspect of how it attacks. The Gray wolf could be fast, agile, stealthy and a quick hitter. The clouded leopard or tiger could be average speed and defenses but a heavy hitter. Finally, the panda or gorilla or rhino could be slow, heavy defenses and a heavy hitter. Each animal would have its own attacks that would fit the style and animal. It would also be really cool in my opinion.

Everything else seems fine with me.

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