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(PS4)RenovaKunumaru

Wukong rework first impressions

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22 minutes ago, FalcoLombardi-StarFox said:

Like how interactive Nyx is right now? that no one play her

She can strip away all defenses, gain a damage buff through Absorb and buff her own Mind Control target. Better than what we had.

20 minutes ago, An8rchy said:

Prob like as interactive as hydroid and his rework *sarcasm*

Despite his sedentary playstyle, Hydroid has synergy and can deal crazy amounts of damage through Undertow. Better than what we had.

Any other examples?

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13 minutes ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

it can taunt enemies along side wukong himself.  absolutely has potential.

How effective will your taunt be, when the enemies wont shoot at you to grant you w/e buff you're looking for because they're already dead.

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1 minute ago, Vox_Preliator said:

Er, not a great comparison, a Duality Equinox has crazy high potential.

Oh, really? On paper it does, but in practice? I'm yet to find a practical application, beside survival camping, of that AI that likes to stare into walls sometimes even though recasting it multiple times. And for survival camping there are far better options.

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14 minutes ago, (XB1)Huggs93 said:

That moment when a better buff for Wukong would have been just removing him from the game... Ouch... must hurt being nuked into the pavement so hard since now no one will play him lol 

Hello, time traveler! Sad to hear your experience with playing the reworked Wukong is terrible. Hopefully the DE in your timeline will wisen up and bring him to your standards. But, while you're here, allow me to ask you a question. Have they released Mirage Deluxe in your timeline? Cause we're still waiting on that here.

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1 hour ago, (PS4)RenovaKunumaru said:

Wukong doesn't sound improved at all.

  • Giving Wukong a specter ability is worthless. We all know how effective AI specters are in Warframe. 
  • Wukong lost his permanent life with Defy
  • The problem with Wukong's 4 is that it isn't special. You might as well use a regular melee weapon than use his staff.

Agreed.

Good, free immortality is garbage.

Are they not making it special? I've only gotten notes so far, but it sounds like it'll have a lot more AoE potential and less clunk.

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16 minutes ago, toyetic said:

The other AI abilities are Atlas' 4, loki's 1 and equinox's augmented 1 All of which are bad except loki's 1 which isn't great anyway it just doesnt move around so it's easy for cc

I agree that having the best version of a bad thing isn't exactly inspiring, but because his 1 seems to interact with his kit to some capacity rather than summon and forget like the other one's are I have decent hopes for it.

16 minutes ago, toyetic said:

 

I'm not saying an ability has to be better than nova's portal to be good. If that were the case both nezha and volt would be much worse. I'm saying is that there is never any good in being put into a cloud. No matter how much movement speed or crit chance is given it'll always be much faster to kill the enemies without going into the cloud

Now that defy is no longer "you can't kill me" being able to go untargetable and reposition with the ability is going to be more useful.  Especially since he's getting a taunt mechanic.  he'll need some way to escape.

16 minutes ago, toyetic said:

 

Thats a good point, They could indeed tie some buffs with a rage mechanic build up rather than hinder it. I wish they had rigged it enough to show it but it's entirely possible its a positive rather than a negative

I agree that they should've held off until more was viewable.  At the same time giving us an early peek with some nebulous concepts/ideas does give the potential for us to help him grow.  I'm choosing to view this as a "direction change" with wukong.  DE's big broad changes like scrapping his 1 and mechanically altering his 2 are like the roadwork.  And we are to help DE hammer out the details.

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It`s a shame that they got rid of his 1st ability but I`m glad they added clones to his kit

 

·       

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19 minutes ago, scourge213 said:

It has abosolutely no potential. The taunt is not a skill of the spectre, its a sill of the player. You need to baby sit the specter, and equninox can already do that with vazarin.

Edit. even if it was a skill of the specter it would still be useless due to the useless AI.

When wukong taunts so does the spectre.  And the spectre goes out and does it's own thing.  Meaning you can be soft ccing potentially two different areas.  Or if you want to direct enemies to JUST your spectre you can taunt and then cloud walk away.

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12 minutes ago, (PS4)RenovaKunumaru said:

How effective will your taunt be, when the enemies wont shoot at you to grant you w/e buff you're looking for because they're already dead.

Yes damage is king.  That is a poor argument to debunk my point.  As is there are 2 cool situations I can think of with what we know.  First being since the spectre seems to do it's own thing you can potentially soft cc 2 areas with taunt.  The second being if you need to have them focus only on your spectre you can taunt and then cloud walk away.  Cloud walker in itself becoming more important now that you don't have a "I can't die" button.  

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2 minutes ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

When wukong taunts so does the spectre.  And the spectre goes out and does it's own thing.  Meaning you can be soft ccing potentially two different areas.  Or if you want to direct enemies to JUST your spectre you can taunt and then cloud walk away.

The spectre does its own thing... yeah you kinda lost me on that one. Have you ever tried duality? Really tried it? Under lv 80 its useless compared to other gear and over lv 80 its dead without baby siting it. And lets just assume taunt is CC ability(which i personally didnt get from the devstream). Without range it will be worthless, as all CC is without range. With range wukong will become a CC frame, just along Nyx and Vauban... hmm i fail to see how thats a good thing - even if raids return, your spectre will have unreliable position.

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In the upcoming Wukong rework, you can spawn a clone Wukong. You can also summon a specter Wukong.

 

4 players + 4 clones + 4 specters = 12 Wukongs.

 

If 8 player raids come back, that makes 24 Wukongs.

 

Is that enough Wukong?

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3 minutes ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

Yes damage is king.  That is a poor argument to debunk my point.  As is there are 2 cool situations I can think of with what we know.  First being since the spectre seems to do it's own thing you can potentially soft cc 2 areas with taunt.  The second being if you need to have them focus only on your spectre you can taunt and then cloud walk away.  Cloud walker in itself becoming more important now that you don't have a "I can't die" button.  

  1. Damage is king. How is that a poor argument? Claims that it is without reason is extremely poor especially when we have examples in game to support my claims. Harrow. Baruuk. Nyx.
  2. Warframe AI's are dumb. Ask the hostage specter, my kavat, equinox duality (lol someone used that as an example of why this is good).
  3. Focus on your specter and cloud walk away. Skip the specter part and just cloud walk away. Whats the difference?

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3 minutes ago, Gentleman_Bird said:

Is that enough Wukong?

Nope, as sun wukong can summon an army of himself. I want 7-10 spectres for his 1, nekros style. Or up to 80 wukongs in raids.

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4 minutes ago, scourge213 said:

The spectre does its own thing... yeah you kinda lost me on that one. Have you ever tried duality? Really tried it? Under lv 80 its useless compared to other gear and over lv 80 its dead without baby siting it. And lets just assume taunt is CC ability(which i personally didnt get from the devstream). Without range it will be worthless, as all CC is without range. With range wukong will become a CC frame, just along Nyx and Vauban... hmm i fail to see how thats a good thing - even if raids return, your spectre will have unreliable position.

What I meant was while it was following Reb some it didn't seem glued to her.  And because it has the mechanic of swapping to whatever you're not using i'm assuming that means it will go off and do it's own thing as they didn't mention any mechanic that says it sticks to you or attacks what you're attacking.  For all we know spectre could have no health and be tied to duration.

Defy does a backlash thing from damage absorbtion.  And he still has his 4 which if we assume the new built in rage mechanic means probably more damage for his stick at the minimum.  So he wouldn't be a cc frame.  He'd be a frame with cc in it.

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They might be able to salvage some of wukong's former survivability while encouraging people to use his clone if they allow the clone to synergize by letting it die instead of you, creating a layered system that, while powerful, would need you to keep some attention on your whereabouts. However, this would depend on whether the clone's 2 (which we were told is something he shares with you upon activation) is merely a mirror of your own (i.e. goes down when yours does), or is its own independent instance of protection.

Picture, if you will, the following :

  • You die while your 2 is up, resulting in you getting a few seconds of invulnerability.
  • You die while your 2 is down, resulting in your clone losing HIS 2, giving YOU his invulnerability.
  • You die while both you AND your clone have no 2, resulting in the clone dying instead of you. This would force the 1 into cooldown, and would give you another few moments of invulnerability.
  • You die while your 2 AND your 1 are down, resulting in actual death.

This way, you'd have players constantly ensuring that both the clone and Wukong himself are properly buffed, all the while attracting enemy fire.

I dunno, i'm just throwing ideas out there, but it feels (to me at least) that his new 1 currently doesn't really interact with the rest of his kit in any shape, way or form.

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6 minutes ago, (PS4)RenovaKunumaru said:
  1. Damage is king. How is that a poor argument? Claims that it is without reason is extremely poor especially when we have examples in game to support my claims. Harrow. Baruuk. Nyx.
  2. Warframe AI's are dumb. Ask the hostage specter, my kavat, equinox duality (lol someone used that as an example of why this is good).
  3. Focus on your specter and cloud walk away. Skip the specter part and just cloud walk away. Whats the difference?

1) Because we could arbitrarily say anything in the game that isn't damage is bad.  You circumvent the argument entirely by forcing me to discuss something else.

2) Which doesn't at all refute what I said.  I listed some potential positives/interactions.  And rather than arguing on those you go "lol but bad tho."

3) The difference is your spectre will have taunted.  Which draws fire from potentially other allies and from yourself.  since you can leave cloudwalker early you could attack the enemies while they're focused on you.  Think wisps decoy interactions.  Plus for all we know the damage your spectre takes during taunt might dump into your damage explosion instead of his when the taunt wears off.

My entire point from the get go here is that we literally don't have enough information about all of his kit's functions or interactions.  And instead of trying to think of possible ways things COULD work you're throwing it all out before anything has even started.

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6 minutes ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

What I meant was while it was following Reb some it didn't seem glued to her.  And because it has the mechanic of swapping to whatever you're not using i'm assuming that means it will go off and do it's own thing as they didn't mention any mechanic that says it sticks to you or attacks what you're attacking.  For all we know spectre could have no health and be tied to duration.

Defy does a backlash thing from damage absorbtion.  And he still has his 4 which if we assume the new built in rage mechanic means probably more damage for his stick at the minimum.  So he wouldn't be a cc frame.  He'd be a frame with cc in it.

I'm sorry mate, but thats just wishful thinking. So far we have no invulnerable spectres/summon/companions/whatever, everything is mortal. Wukong's spectre will be vulnerable to damage, i can bet on it. Backlash from damage absorbtion sounds too similar to Nyx's assimilate, but even if we assume that its something more lets just take a look at Equinox's 4, it has crazy accumulative damage yet it hits like dry towel vs armored enemies. The rage mechanic doesn't bring me hope considering how awful the rage mechanic of baruuk is.

Edit. correction, the mallet of octavia is invulnerable, but its not actually sentient in any way - no ai on it.

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32 minutes ago, scourge213 said:

Oh, really? On paper it does, but in practice? I'm yet to find a practical application, beside survival camping, of that AI that likes to stare into walls sometimes even though recasting it multiple times. And for survival camping there are far better options.

No, really, Duality Equinox with a decent weapon just wrecks face.  It's basically a cheap instakill map-wide AFK aimbot that doesn't restrict you in any way.  It can be dumb, sure, but it more often than not just wipes maps, and can carry you thought solo Prodman runs.  This thread goes into detail.

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1 hour ago, An8rchy said:

Prob like as interactive as hydroid and his rework *sarcasm*

Just because you're incapable of figuring out how to play a warframe does not mean it is trash.

Just that the player is.

^_^

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1 minute ago, scourge213 said:

I'm sorry mate, but thats just wishful thinking. So far we have no invulnerable spectres/summon/companions/whatever, everything is mortal. Wukong's spectre will be vulnerable to damage, i can bet on it. Backlash from damage absorbtion sounds too similar to Nyx's assimilate, but even if we assume that its something more lets just take a look at Equinox's 4, it has crazy accumulative damage yet it hits like dry towel vs armored enemies. The rage mechanic doesn't bring me hope considering how awful the rage mechanic of baruuk is.

And I can just as easily say your trail of thought is just negative down talking.  Both of us have just as much chance to be right as we do wrong.

As far as your comment about baruuk goes all I can say is blarg.  Just because an ability/interaction sounds similar to something else in the game doesn't mean they will behave the same.  I highly doubt DE will lock usage of his pole behind a build up mechanic.  So it's already not going to be like Baruuk gameplay wise.  Which means the "rage" mechanic being compared to Baruuk has to mean it's some sort of buff for your stick the more you use it.  The weapon already grows in size from using it in two different ways.  It sounds like they're building on that.

I have no problem with people being skeptical about the changes.  I DO have a problem with people arbitrarily writing off the frame work DE has laid with the bigger kit changes JUST because it MIGHT have some issues similar abilities share.  It's far more productive to offer suggestions on how to build upon what DE has put forth rather than trash it all and chastize DE for not giving players exactly what they wanted.

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     First, context. I have played Wukong 12.7% of my entire Warframe life at this point in time, and I genuinely believe he IS bad and that the updates proposed in Devstream #128 will not help at all. The change of his first ability was the main thing I agreed with and liked of it all, but the handling of Defy, Cloudwalker, and Primal Fury made me a bit upset. Defy in general is supposed to be all powerful, like it is in game, but it was too heavily nerfed in the ideas listed and I'm sure it won't be better with the combination of the other reworked abilities. Cloudwalker being faster is nice, but it's not a interesting way to spin it with just a ball of mist zooming around the world. Lastly, Primal Fury was the one I had a issue with, due to the nature of building it up, which is one of the primary reasons I hate Baruuk's Serene Storm.

     I do have suggestions that could be taken into account in some way, seeing as I have a bit of experience in my 1228 hours in game (recorded on Steam).

     The Hair of the King ability that DE has produced to replace his one is honestly the best that can happen to it and is fairly unique (only other main example is Equinox's one with the augment), way to go on that! The only real edition I would have is something along the lines of Mirage's Hall of Mirrors augment built into the ability for both the clone and you, but that's a bit more debatable to copy that. 

     Why not make Defy act on a stacks sort of system, where it gives X stacks of Defy per every time Wukong hits himself on the head with that animation to cast it? Every stack of Defy built from casting it again and again to refresh stacks can lead to the same sort of "Defy, attack, Defy, attack" pattern [DE]Reb mentioned in the stream. The stacks could possibly scale off of duration, due to how long it will be able to stay up without another refresh.

     Cloudwalker has always been a bit problematic for him, being almost a useless button. The changes DE proposed did fix that, but isn't something fun and interesting to bring to it. One idea that Triburos mentioned in a video was the idea of Wukong getting on a Nimbus cloud K-Drive to "Drive by staff people," and that would fit the fast nature. A tuned down and slower K-drive, yes, but one that you can melee on with a ring around it of invisibility with the augment, with the addition of less speed.

     Primal Fury's changes are a more substantial nerf in my opinion, being unable to use it as a main form of damage. Only damage was buffed, none of the range issues of the magnificent Ruyi Jingu Bang (Chinese name of the staff) addressed, and a gimmicky meter to fill. My changes I would add myself would be mainly increased range and damage, maybe a more substantial tweak to combos.

     Passives were not mentioned at all in this. The current passive of a longer combo duration will be null and void once Melee 3.0 comes in full force, so why not add something fitting? Wukong's Golden Banded Staff is known for the ability to shrink and grow, so why not add a +X% melee range to it? It is in character and fits the thematic elements with the weapon of choice. 

     All I ask is that Wukong does not get any worse. These changes will not help, other than the new primary ability which seems reasonable. I love this frame with all my heart and I know those changes listed on the stream will not give players the ambition to try him again outside of Hydron to level. Please, DE, take it into consideration. He needs help, but this isn't the way to give it.

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1 minute ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

I DO have a problem with people arbitrarily writing off the frame work DE has laid with the bigger kit changes JUST because it MIGHT have some issues similar abilities share.  It's far more productive to offer suggestions on how to build upon what DE has put forth rather than trash it all and chastize DE for not giving players exactly what they wanted.

That is maybe because you didnt read my original post ending?
"Warframe is all about being situationally best at something. Wukong's current defy made him situationally the thoughest frame around. I dont see how the new changes make him situationally best at anything." . I.e. don't change his defy!

Or maybe becauses you have no backtracking of previous reworks that DE has made with warframes. Ember's rework did nothing(for some people it even made it worse), Vauban's rework did nothing, Saryn's rework removed her melee build and nerfed massacred her casting build, Naramon's rework removed the stealth and gave nothing in return, should i continue?

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14 minutes ago, Vox_Preliator said:

No, really, Duality Equinox with a decent weapon just wrecks face.  It's basically a cheap instakill map-wide AFK aimbot that doesn't restrict you in any way.  It can be dumb, sure, but it more often than not just wipes maps, and can carry you thought solo Prodman runs.  This thread goes into detail.

Erm, i don't want to go so far off topic for the duality, but that post says nothing. I already mentioned a couple of times that duality does good damage and can be baby sited with vazarin. But that doesnt make it exceptional. I can go into sorties with MK1 weapons and beat them, or solo Tridolons, that means very little. Its fun gear sure, but not exceptional or practical for wide usage.

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6 minutes ago, scourge213 said:

That is maybe because you didnt read my original post ending?
"Warframe is all about being situationally best at something. Wukong's current defy made him situationally the thoughest frame around. I dont see how the new changes make him situationally best at anything." . I.e. don't change his defy!

Defy is dumb as is.  I really shouldn't need to explain why.

6 minutes ago, scourge213 said:

Or maybe becauses you have no backtracking of previous reworks that DE has made with warframes. Ember's rework did nothing(for some people it even made it worse), Vauban's rework did nothing, Saryn's rework removed her melee build and nerfed massacred her casting build, Naramon's rework removed the stealth and gave nothing in return, should i continue?

lmao Saryn's melee build is still perfectly viable.  Just because you can nuke the map now doesn't mean it's not usable.  I'm done arguing with you.  If you wana be pessimistic that's your right I guess.

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