Wukong rework first impressions

[DeMonkey]

3 minutes ago, 000l000 said:

I wouldn't call that synergies

Then your definition of synergies is wrong.

[000l000]

à l’instant, DeMonkey a dit :

What has that got to do with the price of fish?

Poor design. In case you didn't get it yet.

[ConsumerJTC]

Seeing the new stream, I have to give them the merit of making defy a functional counter at melee range as well as the invincibility it provides. That said I'm here to talk about the new armor buff mechanic he gets after performing defy.

As is already known, the armor buff is scaled around the damage Wukong absorbs during defy and is capped at 1500 armor. On paper this is said to have 85% damage reduction as Pablo has stated. Alongside his the rapid healing in cloud form it can be said that he is almost immortal, right?

Nope

The armor buff is not the same as damage reduction (e.g mesas shatter shield/nezhas warding halo) which absorbs damage from any source and has a few glaring weaknesses, mainly puncture damage. This isn't quite a big deal since many enemies that use that damage type aren't really significant and the clone can just straight up tank damage regardless with potentially Inaros levels of health. Moving on from that, the actual big problem is that the armor buff is capped at 1500. This is quite problematic in regards to having a role as a functional tank.

So far, the only similar instance  of gaining armor in this manner is between Atlas and Chroma. Atlas with his rubble mechanic can accumulate up to 1500 armor none scaling as well but it has the benefit of having him able to heal alongside it so I can see where Pablo was going with this. Chroma can reach a decent level of armor with his vex armor (4000+ with prime and some umbral mods). Atlases armor buff on his passive is almost amount to nothing when it comes to proper survivability. At its maximum value and used on its own without landslide acting as a breather, the slightest breeze in Sorties, Mot at a proper endurance run of 30+ mins and arbitration would be enough to make him curl into a fetal position. Chroma with his well above 85% damage reduction armor buff also starts to struggle at that point in time, and would also die and crumble like paper as soon as a high leveled enemy unit of the likes of a corpus tech starts to look at him funny. At least with Atlas, he has a way to provide for himself CC to go alongside his armor bonus to provide some survivability, Wukong has none of that other than his clone providing a distraction and the celestial stomp, but who would spend a augment slot for an inferior version of rhino stomp?

Whilst Wukong has a way of mitigating damage by cloud walker, I hardly see spending half of the time as a cloud as being proactive and fulfilling for people looking to casually slaughter with him.at sortie level play. Rather than being a useful situational ability for relocation, this has become a forced synergical ability to go along with the weak armor bonus that his new defy provides. 

 

Keeping it short, the armor bonus from his defy is actually weak and nonexistent outside of starmap. A way to improve this would be either to turn it into a proper damage reduction buff, non-scaling at 85% if necessary or to have the armor bonus scale with power strength to keep it relevant. To balance this out, the healing component of could walker could be removed in exchanged, as its not really needed with all the options we already have for frames with an exalted weapon (life strike/magus elevate) and can be instead be replaced with it actively dealing shock damage in the similar manner of Wisps shock mote. This would give Wukong a decent way to CC without a need of an augment, would add a cool theme for could walker to be a thunder cloud and it would synergize with primal fury by providing a proc, on which a staff with condition overload can make use of.

 

[000l000]

il y a 2 minutes, DeMonkey a dit :

Then your definition of synergies is wrong.

I prefer Wisp's definition of synergy than what you tried to sell us as a well rounded kit.

Edited June 18, 2019 by 000l000

[DeMonkey]

4 minutes ago, 000l000 said:

I prefer Wisp's definition of synergy than what you tried to sell us as a well rounded kit.

Strawman. God you're boring.

[DeMonkey]

6 minutes ago, 000l000 said:

Poor design. In case you didn't get it yet.

Great counter argument.

[000l000]

il y a 6 minutes, DeMonkey a dit :

Your glass is so half empty that you're over exaggerating the negative aspects and blowing them out of proportion.

My glass is full of wine so far cause i don't think i'd enjoy wukong new iteration more unless i'm totally drunk. I don't care about damages or whatever, but the fun factor is nowhere to be found, same with lore or what's really useful ingame.

[000l000]

il y a 1 minute, DeMonkey a dit :

Great counter argument.

That's an explanation, you're the one who's spamming counter-arguments here. I don't have enough time for that, really. I'm already spending decades explaining everything you didn't understand, that's a full time job !

Edited June 18, 2019 by 000l000

[BlackRabbit007]

1 minute ago, DeMonkey said:

Strawman. God you're boring.

I was about to say that, Strawman probably only know wukong from another game not the actual character

[DeMonkey]

1 hour ago, 000l000 said:

My glass is full of wine

Your posts do resemble that of a drunk.

1 hour ago, 000l000 said:

That's an explanation, you're the one who's spamming counter-arguments here. I don't have enough time for that, really. I'm already spending decades explaining everything you didn't understand, that's a full time job !

No, it isn't. You haven't explained anything. You have stated many things that I have argued against, you have failed to argue back and instead have resorted to ad hominem and strawmen, allow me to do the same.

Your explanations are incompetent, your opinion is negatively biased to the point of being slightly ridiculous and you're arrogant enough to decide you're completely right before even trying it.

Ya boring.

Edited June 18, 2019 by DeMonkey

[Teridax68]

5 hours ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

They aren’t turning Defy into a CC ability. They’re turning it into Nyx’s Absorb. Which has a very high chance of making the ability worse.

From the looks of it, DE now seems aware that reflecting enemy damage requires a very large multiplier to have an effect, which they seem to have put on Wukong's new Defy: in the gameplay shown recently, Wukong was able to one-shot Corrupted Vor with a cast of Defy, by dealing over 40k damage, which suggests it may in fact be a stronger Absorb in every respect. I guess we can just add that to the list of Nyx abilities that exist as secondary mechanics on other frames (which they nonetheless do significantly better).

[Kayantao]

vor 4 Stunden schrieb ConsumerJTC:

but who would spend a augment slot for an inferior version of rhino stomp?

A lot of ppl would actually. an additionall cc ability for a mod slot is a fair trade that many ppl are willing to go.

In the same way could you ask - "Who would be willing to use path of statues for atlas as cc, when its just an inferior version of his own gaze ability" 

 

vor 4 Stunden schrieb ConsumerJTC:

Whilst Wukong has a way of mitigating damage by cloud walker, I hardly see spending half of the time as a cloud as being proactive and fulfilling

it has a rly good heal that heals you and your clone - gets rid of any negative element on you and makes you beeing able to get out of harsh situations.

I fail to see how its not proactive.

 

All you reasoning etc etc can be summerized into :

"I just do not like the cloud walk, because its an ability I personally do not like"

And while its only fair to give your own opinion, dont hide it under the mantle of "it's bad cause its bad".

Edited June 18, 2019 by Kayantao

[DrivaMain]

Looks like I have a reason to start crafting Wukong after a full year sitting on my foundry..

[DeMonkey]

47 minutes ago, ConsumerJTC said:

Whilst Wukong has a way of mitigating damage by cloud walker, I hardly see spending half of the time as a cloud as being proactive and fulfilling for people looking to casually slaughter with him.at sortie level play.

Why not? Looks like a useful gap closer that has the added benefit of healing you and your clone at the same time.

[Birdframe_Prime]

1 hour ago, 000l000 said:

I'm already spending decades explaining everything you didn't understand, that's a full time job !

You're fired for incompetence.

Everything you're complaining about is either a non-issue or a projection of problems that the most recent Stream already showed they've covered.

If you want to sit your freshly-washed candy floss of a soul down and have a little tantrum about your favourite 'invulnerable' build now not working, fine, but the rest of us are actually looking forward to all of these changes as actual buffs to the frame, both functionally and thematically.

[BlachWolf]

Armor is indeed a lot worse than straight up dmg reduction, especially since it can be bypassed by slash. With my chroma build Im able to reach 5631.25 armor, which gives me essetially 95% dmg reduction, which combined with 1500 hp gives me 30k ehp, which is further boosted by adaptation for a total of 300k ehp when fully charged. But because slash procs bypass armor, a chroma will go a lot faster down when compared to a gara, who has around the same amount of ehp. This is because she can reduce the DoT dmg to 1% of its original value with adaptation and her dmg reduction, while also not suffering as much when compared to armor in terms of raw dmg, because most of her dmg reduction dont have weaknesses to elements. A practical example would be the kuva fortress, in higher level my chroma is basically eaten alive with 300k ehp, mostly because of the slash procs there, while my gara can easily keep tanking till lvl 200+. This issue will sadly also affect wukong now, though because he can cleanse himself from status, it might not be as bad.

Edited June 18, 2019 by BlachWolf

[(XBOX)WafflyLearner89]

Did not see the stream nor did I know they did one. However, this is definitely biased, I still think cloud Walker should have been replaced with an ability that allows wukong to transform into different animals like in his lore with the 72 transformation thing.

Maybe cloud Walker is actually good know and just one of those abilities for me that doesn't look as appealing from face value, I honestly don't know.

[(PSN)robotwars7]

I'm looking forward to these changes, it sounds like Wukong will become a lot more versatile, which is something he sorely lacks right now. I just hope other frames will be reworked with this much depth.. looking at you, Vauban.

[Birdframe_Prime]

1 hour ago, (XB1)WafflyLearner89 said:

Did not see the stream nor did I know they did one.

With all enthusiasm, it's still there on Twitch (the stream temporarily died mid-way, so there's two halves of 25 minutes up on their official Twitch page).

Go check it out, Cloud Walker is fast now, really fast. The entry and exit animations are nearly instant, the duration is low, it heals really fast (from the points I was actively paying attention to, Reb died, triggered the new passive and was set to 50% health and Cloud Walker healed that up entirely in about 4 seconds), and while you can just hang there in mid-air if you'd like, it now moves about as fast as a full-strength Volt in 3D space. It still staggers enemies, and you could probably use the Augment quite actively now to cover an Ally whenever they need it (I can see it being useful on the Rescue missions if it works on the NPCs, the same way that Invis Arrow from Ivara works). 

Also, despite the whiner above, you can also cancel out of the ability with Melee to do surprise slam attacks or aerials, so you're never just locked into it, you can actively use it to reposition at any time. Oh, and for the part that everyone wanted: it no longer triggers laser traps.

Outside of that you get to see some of the really nice bits, like the Clone being clever enough when using Melee to actually run up and melee Nullifier shields to reduce them without cancelling itself as an ability, something most players can't do reliably, the new 1 Augment to have a pocket Rhino Stomp for only 25 base energy (direct the clone to do it), and the new smoother melee combos for the Iron Staff.

Honestly speaking, he looks fun. Far less like the mindless 'stand in direct line of fire all you want' and more actual Monkey King style of 'teleport into the room, confuse your enemies with a clone, taunt everyone in range, defy the damage they throw at you and pay it back with a sweep of your staff, and then mop up the rest with your staff, your clone or even a gun if you'd like and if they actually manage to get close to hurting you just leap into the clouds again to surprise them again.

Sure, transformations would be also on theme, but in the limits of Warframe's engine... the combat style seems to be just right.

[(PSN)RenovaKunumaru]

1 hour ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

-snip-

Look at that rework. Now that's an actual rework. 

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

6 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

From the looks of it, DE now seems aware that reflecting enemy damage requires a very large multiplier to have an effect, which they seem to have put on Wukong's new Defy: in the gameplay shown recently, Wukong was able to one-shot Corrupted Vor with a cast of Defy, by dealing over 40k damage, which suggests it may in fact be a stronger Absorb in every respect. I guess we can just add that to the list of Nyx abilities that exist as secondary mechanics on other frames (which they nonetheless do significantly better).

Someone already beat you to telling me that.

[Teridax68]

8 minutes ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

Someone already beat you to telling me that.

Sure, but the point remains that DE is now at least somewhat aware of the discrepancy between enemy damage and enemy health -- Amalgam Javlok Magazine Warp has a 61x multiplier on its damage reflection, for example, so we might start hopefully seeing similar multipliers on more enemy-based damage as a standard.

[Xepthrichros]

7 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

From the looks of it, DE now seems aware that reflecting enemy damage requires a very large multiplier to have an effect, which they seem to have put on Wukong's new Defy: in the gameplay shown recently, Wukong was able to one-shot Corrupted Vor with a cast of Defy, by dealing over 40k damage, which suggests it may in fact be a stronger Absorb in every respect. I guess we can just add that to the list of Nyx abilities that exist as secondary mechanics on other frames (which they nonetheless do significantly better).

I think Nyx exists to satisfy players whose preferred playstyle is to not do too much with Warframe abilities. So they pick Nyx and with the inherent lack of strong abilities, they reduce the likelihood of meeting anyone calling them out on not using their abilities (i.e. to say if suppose they chose a frame with better abilities, like an Oberon, but didn't heal, they might get someone who died being salty and say "Oberon why no 3?")..

 

 

It's the only explanation I can come up with for DE's philosophy towards Nyx's design. 

[Birdframe_Prime]

38 minutes ago, (PS4)RenovaKunumaru said:

Look at that rework. Now that's an actual rework. 

I know, right?!

Why can they do this with Wukong, of all frames (no offense DeMonkey), but be so lackluster with ones like Nyx, Vauban and even Mirage...

[(PSN)RenovaKunumaru]

1 minute ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

I know, right?!

Why can they do this with Wukong, of all frames (no offense DeMonkey), but be so lackluster with ones like Nyx, Vauban and even Mirage...

Yeah and Ze..err I mean Titania.