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(PS4)RenovaKunumaru

Wukong rework first impressions

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3 hours ago, ZPERO said:

So here is my proposal:

1- Clones are bad, AI is bad, your proposal is even heavier dependent on it. Do not like it

2- Old defy is bad, toggle invulnerability is boring, non interactive and has to go.

3- nothing about cloud walker is good, anything that uses it im against it.

4- The new 4 seems good. Better combos, no energy drain, a powering meter to make it better, and stats will be better.

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10 minutes ago, MonkeyKV said:

His current defy is a complete garbage skill and has to go, please stop asking for it to stay. Press and forget invincibility is boring, non interactive and feels like using cheat codes when you cant actually play the game.

Sorry, i truly don't want to argue, but current Defy is anything but press and forget. In heat it will last no more than a minute, you need to constantly be aware of it and your energy. You have to deal with disruptors before they can harpoon you or be concious about magnetic procs. Its a lot of gameplay interaction.

And the ability is not garbage for allowing you...what i wrote to NoLazy.

All i want is to keep wukong a infinitely scaling tank, just like he is right now or how revenant currently is. The easiest solution is to keep defy in its current state.

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14 minutes ago, scourge213 said:

All i want is to keep wukong infinitely scaling

Wukong has no infinite scaling, he is limited by DPS and KPS. Defy is absolutly toggle and forget, you turn it on and get around 17 uses of it before you need to "recast" it, you should build power duration on him which will give you at LEAST 10-12s of invulnerability. 12s x 17 and you have lots of time to forget it. That is if you die on cooldown which does not happen.

What content that we currently have that you are struggling to survive that you need toggle invincibility?

Don't mean to sound agressive, but if he is do more then afk invicibility his old defy needs to go.

 

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5 minutes ago, MonkeyKV said:

What content that we currently have that you are struggling to survive that you need toggle invincibility?

 

-long arbitrations

-sortie keyla de thaym

-pre nerf wolf of saturn six

-lvl 100+ bombards

 

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5 minutes ago, Zoero said:

-long arbitrations

-sortie keyla de thaym

-pre nerf wolf of saturn six

-lvl 100+ bombards

 

None of which require invincibility. New wukong wont be a squishy frame.

2x Arcane guardians, adaptation, umbral vitality and every frame in the game can facetank all that crap

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Just throwing in a thought.

The whole "hold 1 to summon clone en press 1 to cycle stances" sounds good

Have Wukong become invincible while his clone is out. If the clone dies you become susceptible to damage again.

Defy can still be the taunt thing to draw aggro away from your clone.

When Cloudwalker is used while your clone is out you switch places. And that crit increase better be good.

Staff could use some buffs. Not really a fan of the Baruuk thing. But it could be better than an energy drain.

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1 minute ago, MonkeyKV said:

None of which require invincibility. New wukong wont be a squishy frame.

sure, you don't "require" invincibility. You don't require a primary secondary and melee weapon for a mission yet people take all 3 normally.  It's not an issue of "requirements", It's an issue of play style and one frame being better than others at one very specific job. 

Lastly, for a PVE game I don't see how a frame that barely sees the light of day having an ability that makes him temporarily invulnerable affects anyone in a negative way. You don't like it? Don't use it. There are 39 other frames to choose from, of which 10 are decent tanks.

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2 minutes ago, MonkeyKV said:

Wukong has no infinite scaling, he is limited by DPS and KPS. 

His DPS with the mentioned synergy can deal with lv300 easily. But then not even octavia's mallet is infinitely scaling so i dont really understand what you mean with 'limited DPS'. For KPS he could still use covert lethality and be a bit more efective than ivara(in kps, not loot), and a bit less than ash. Also in practice i've noticed that after the 4th defy one starts to lose a bit too much energy, so 4x12 is around a minute and ok i can agree it can be fire and forget, even though for me its not, i wont argue more on that.

As for the struggle, i dont struggle with survivability, i struggle with keeping the damage up while also surviving. So far wukong can go full out dps synergy and still survive arbritations with ease. Inaros with the same synergy has ~20-25K EHP(minus arbsorbtion) and that can sometimes fail on arbritrations.

Speaking of inaros, his 4 is what i can define as fire and forget.

 

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1 minute ago, Zoero said:

one frame being better than others at one very specific job

Wukong is not better at anything. Other frames tank better and more efficiently then him, while offering more. It is not a matter of requirements, you cant give him complete immortality and also make him a dps/cc/whatever. It's better for him to not be immortal, but tanky+something else.

3 minutes ago, Zoero said:

don't like it? Don't use it.

I like him and i want him improved/more fun. You seem to want a very specific job which is immortality, so maybe you can go and pick another immortal frame and be happy.

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my opinion is, ill give benefit of the doubt for his defy changes and the clones , maybe if they are dont in a manner similar to a combo of mirage and nekros, in that they are tethered to wukong and can mitigate damage while out and have multiple but can roam within the range of the tether that way the ai is forced into combat around you it might be interesting

 

the 3 though, cloud walker...

 

change it. it is the stupidest power since excalibur's jump, id go as far as to say its one of if not the most useless power in the game, please for all that is good about warframe, remove that crappy power, no one wants it, no one will use it, and it could be itzal levels of fast and no one would care it would still be terrible, only way i could see it ever being useable is if it had an ash style ability tied to it, any enemies that enter are set upon by clones of wukong and slaughtered, a speed buff and crit chance boost wont matter to anyone playing him. if you dont replace it you might as well just remove it entirely and ship him with 3 powers.

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2 minutes ago, scourge213 said:

For KPS he could still use covert lethality and be a bit more efective than ivara(in kps, not loot), and a bit less than ash

Sorry i won't bother arguing anymore. You either play a different game or have no idea what you are talking about. You mentioned 2 absolute BEASTS at endurance and covert lethality wuk?

Wukong has no armor stripping and deals impact dmg, he does not scale for dps. All his DPS is gun based as with every other frame, he has no way to improve it.

Wukong is done way before Ash or Ivara start breaking a sweat.

Try Baruuk with power strength. S#&$ loads of daggers, 50%DR from passive, 90% from daggers, 90% from adaptation, + Quick Thinking, + 2 arcane guardians, umbral vitality and healing from operator. You can go all out dps and facetank all you want

 

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6 minutes ago, Ocerkin said:

my opinion is,

Yeah my feeling too. I'll give them the benefit of doubt for now. Its a decent start but if not tweaked will terrible.

Cloud walker needs to go 😄

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5 hours ago, Gruiz said:

Leave defy alone, its the only way wukong can stay alive in high level mission

And yet an Umbral build does absolutely fine up to level 100, which is really as high as the game actually goes.

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2 minutes ago, MonkeyKV said:

Wukong has no armor stripping and deals impact dmg, he does not scale for dps.

...90% from adaptation...

Yes we indeed talking about different things, "impact damage" - you're talking about his staff... i never talked about that piece of crap. You didn't read the synergy i mentioned. Wukong is melee based DPS, not gun based. I know how beastly ash and ivara are, but i also know how beastly wukong is in terms of dps. And all of them fall off after certain level at which point covert is the only way for them to deal damage.

"2 arcane guardians"... again, please read what i write. Also adaptation doesn't provide 90% damage reduction.

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9 minutes ago, scourge213 said:

indeed talking about different things

You don't seem to get it. All you want is an immortal frame to use the weapons every frame can use? Wukong has no way to improve his weapons so he falls off before every frame that can, he has zero scaling. Covert lethality is not fast enough for kills at higher endurance.

You don't seem to know the fall offs you are talking about. Ash will press 1 and shoot a army dead while you are performing a CL finisher animation.

I know exactly how adaptation works, I provided you with a build and a frame to do exactly what you are looking for and that will trivialize all you are struggling with. There are countless others.

We are already sneezing and everything is dying 3 rooms ahead and here we are begging for toggle invincibility.

Old defy is gone, and it took them too long. I'll argue for us to get something good now and not for it to come back

I'm out. Cheers

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Lel, you beg a person to read your argument, he doesn't read a single line and keeps on going with this thing. What a shame. Old defy will be gone just because of this kind of people.

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1 hour ago, scourge213 said:

Bottom line: PLEASE DE, dont remove his tankiness, let him keep his Defy as it is. Please!!

I'll bite.

DE already said they are NOT removing his tankyness. Have you seen the new defy? No one has, so asking to scrape it and get old one back is silly.

We sorta agreed his old defy is toggle and forget. It offers nothing else, has no interaction or fun mechanics. Why should it come back?

How about we see if new defy will give him enough tankyness and meanwhile give feedback on what was shown to maybe improve him to the point of being "somewhat usable" outside of defy. Before begging for it to come back.

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3 hours ago, Stalk-prime said:

Maybe my language is too radical, I feel sorry for this, but you may not understand that the Chinese are obsessed with Goku.

No. I understand it's that they aren't doing him justice and just slapping things together hoping it works instead of actually proposing a coherent and cohesive kit

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13 minutes ago, MonkeyKV said:

I'll bite.

DE already said they are NOT removing his tankyness. Have you seen the new defy? No one has, so asking to scrape it and get old one back is silly.

We sorta agreed his old defy is toggle and forget. It offers nothing else, has no interaction or fun mechanics. Why should it come back?

How about we see if new defy will give him enough tankyness and meanwhile give feedback on what was shown to maybe improve him to the point of being "somewhat usable" outside of defy. Before begging for it to come back.

Oh? Then what is this from the devstream? "His defy is going, but i assure you that his other 3 abilities, all getting significantly buffed, will make up for it". It doesnt have a milion interpretations.

His old defy allows his melee damage to scale with specific weapon and arcane combinations while being risk free. He's usable as he is, with 1 ability, only the stigma that hovers over him keeps people from seeing that.

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I don't really play Wukong. For obvious reasons(to many). These proposed changes do seem like a bit of a drastic change-up. Speaking personally, I like these ideas as a starting point. I wouldn't mind seeing them more developed, though. If it can get me to try Wukong again, how bad could it really be?

That said, I understand how people feel when a frame can be changed into something that might be drastically different. It's hard for me to say "try it out before you complain" when my favorite frame, Nyx, was butchered in a recent "rework".

If I were a cynical man, I would say DE makes changes for the people that don't play these frames, not for the people that do. They want more people playing it even at the expense of the old players. I would be really afraid. If they can mess up Wukong, surely they can do anything.

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3 minutes ago, scourge213 said:

From the devstream "His defy is going, but i assure you that his other 3 abilities, all getting significantly buffed, will make up for it", it doesnt have a milion interpretations

Have you seen the new defy? It still has invulnerability in it apparently. We do not know durations or synergies or anything.

What he currently is getting outside of defy is currently subpar and that's the problem.

6 minutes ago, scourge213 said:

His old defy allows his melee damage to scale

His old defy makes him invulnerable, it has absolutely no interaction or melee scaling whatsoever I do not know what you are talking about.

9 minutes ago, scourge213 said:

He's usable as he is, with 1 ability, only the stigma that hovers over him keeps people from seeing that.

Lol.

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8 minutes ago, MonkeyKV said:

His old defy makes him invulnerable, it has absolutely no interaction or melee scaling whatsoever I do not know what you are talking about.

... i'm speechless. Do you even know how arcane avenger works and why defy has the best iteraction with it or how blood rush affects it?

As for DE's words, yes we haven't seen it, but the words are straight forward.

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5 minutes ago, ArcKnight9202 said:

I don't really play Wukong. For obvious reasons(to many). These proposed changes do seem like a bit of a drastic change-up. Speaking personally, I like these ideas as a starting point. I wouldn't mind seeing them more developed, though. If it can get me to try Wukong again, how bad could it really be?

That said, I understand how people feel when a frame can be changed into something that might be drastically different. It's hard for me to say "try it out before you complain" when my favorite frame, Nyx, was butchered in a recent "rework".

If I were a cynical man, I would say DE makes changes for the people that don't play these frames, not for the people that do. They want more people playing it even at the expense of the old players. I would be really afraid. If they can mess up Wukong, surely they can do anything.

But that's the bad thing about, its hypocritical to think of balancing and reworking frames like this 

DE: We see that players are tired of press 4 to win frames and lazy gameplay but our most popular frames are Mesa and Sayrn. We also changed this by making the player feel like the earned the ability to press 4 Garuda, Revanent, Wisp, and Hyildrin. Absolute Hypocrisy like really DE.

There was a time when Sayrn was getting reworked but do you know how long this took? 2 months they stayed on that topic for 2 months people actually got tired of the constant changing around of the abilities but now she's a press 4 to win frame, there's nothing wrong with that because they stayed true to the frame unlike with Wukong and other frames needing reworks destroying, gutting, and homogenized kits aren't going to please the players I may draw them in but it won't satisfy anyone that actually cares

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4 minutes ago, scourge213 said:

i'm speechless. Do you even know how arcane avenger works and why defy has the best iteraction with it or how blood rush affects it?

Arcane avenger is a additive crit bonus to your melee weapon, blood rush is a multiplicative crit chance bonus based on combo counter. Neither interact or affect defy in any form.

I am speechless, I should have noticed sooner what I was dealing with, but it's late and I am tired.

Good night

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Just now, MonkeyKV said:

Arcane avenger is a additive crit bonus to your melee weapon, blood rush is a multiplicative crit chance bonus based on combo counter. Neither interact or affect defy in any form.

I am speechless, I should have noticed sooner what I was dealing with, but it's late and I am tired.

Good night

lol... arcane avenger requires you get hit first for the bonus. that's what he's talking about

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