Planned Melee Combo Bindings are a Mistake - Please Tweak Them

[DiabolusUrsus]

First and foremost, I am NOT saying that the planned combos themselves are bad. Having simple utilitarian functions like an area focus and gap closers will be fantastic to have.

I am specifically talking about the bindings:

• Stationary E = standard combo.
• W + E = crowd-clear combo.
• Aim + Stationary E = AOE combo.
• Aim + W + E = gap closer combo.

I'm editing the post to resolve some common misconceptions/confusions. Original post provided in the spoiler for record keeping.

Spoiler

There are 2 main problems with these:

1. If you somehow hadn't noticed by now, Warframe is a very mobile game. There is rarely, if ever, good reason to make a sitting duck of yourself by not moving around while attacking. Incremental movement is not enough, and TTK is far too short for "standard" vs. "crowd clear" to be a useful distinction. The result of this will be that most players simply won't use the standard stationary combo much (if at all).

2. Aim-based melee bindings need refinement now that instant switching between guns/melee is in the game. The dilemma is fairly simple: players need to be able to aim if they want to before firing to switch back to a gun. That makes the melee "block" binding potentially obstructive to shooting. Yet relying on an input that switches to guns for MELEE input is just plain awkward.

However, there are straightforward solutions!

1. Change the W + E combo to Sprint + E.

CLARIFICATION: Sprint binding only. Players do not actually need to be sprinting to use the combo. So for the default keyboard binds, it would be Shift + E.

To accommodate console players and toggle-sprint users, make combo modifiers (the combo inputs added to the "melee" binding) fully rebindable.

2. Re-implement manual blocking bound to "Aim," and apply ADS zoom while blocking and simply handle the switch when the player fires. This will support deeper melee interactions in the future, restore things like melee aim-glide without requiring players to unequip all their guns, and support aiming before firing.

For snipers and other scoped weapons, just apply standard zoom without the scope overlay. This would be reasonable because:

a. Standard zoom is adequate for precise zoom in most tiles/situations, and

b. At the ranges where scopes make a noticeable difference players have plenty of time to switch manually.

Please consider polishing your combo bindings a bit more, and at the very least supporting better player control customization for the new combo types. I firmly believe that the current inputs will work poorly.

I don't like the proposed melee bindings for the 2 main melee combos (EEE and W+E), because I rarely stop moving forward while attacking. This means that I will rarely (if ever) use the main EEE combo instead of W+E, which I find to be an awkward way of differentiating the two. I am also unhappy with the existing Aim+E combos, because the auto-switching between melee and guns while aiming occasionally gets in the way.

• First and foremost, please allow players to rebind combo inputs now that the inputs are universal across all weapons/stances. This prevents anyone from getting stuck with an input they hate and can't stand to use.
• Second, I believe that changing W+E to Shift+E (the sprint binding) would be a better setup. It allows players to execute either the standard combo or "crowd-clear" combo whether they are standing still or moving forward.
  • For players who use toggle sprint or controllers, the combo can be triggered based on whether sprint is toggled on/off.
  • Players who don't like either of the options can rebind it based on their preferences under the first point.
• Lastly, I want for "Aim" to be restored as "block" while a melee weapon is equipped.
  • Add ADS zoom to "Block" without switching back to guns. This allows players to aim precisely and switch back to guns by firing.
  • While melee is equipped, pressing F should switch back to the most recently-equipped gun first. This allows players to switch WITHOUT firing if needed.
  • For scoped weapons, apply standard ADS zoom without the scope overlay while melee is equipped. Scope zoom isn't needed in most situations, and at the ranges where scopes make a difference the player has plenty of time to switch back with F.
  • This would also support some expansion and refinement to blocking:
    • Reflection of enemy projectiles aimed at the crosshair while blocking.
    • Implementation of timed parries to make boss enemies vulnerable to melee (not required, just as an optional method of fighting them).

Basically, the official bindings will make it annoying to use the default combo and I'll probably only end up using the crowd-clear combo unless something changes.

Edited May 25, 2019 by DiabolusUrsus
Clarification

[SneakyErvin]

39 minutes ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

1. Change the W + E combo to Sprint + E. To accommodate console players and toggle-sprint users, make combo modifiers (the combo inputs added to the "melee" binding) fully rebindable.

2. Re-implement manual blocking bound to "Aim," and apply ADS zoom while blocking and simply handle the switch when the player fires. This will support deeper melee interactions in the future, restore things like melee aim-glide without requiring players to unequip all their guns, and support aiming before firing.

For snipers and other scoped weapons, just apply standard zoom without the scope overlay. This would be reasonable because:

a. Standard zoom is adequate for precise zoom in most tiles/situations, and

b. At the ranges where scopes make a noticeable difference players have plenty of time to switch manually.

Please consider polishing your combo bindings a bit more, and at the very least supporting better player control customization for the new combo types. I firmly believe that the current inputs will work poorly.

1. No thanks, they are planning to make it smoother, not clunkier. Your suggestion sounds too much like some BDO combo crap. W+E will work wether you wanna sprint or not, toggle or no toggle. Having to hold sprint or tap sprint for every combo? No thanks, some of us actually have sprint somewhere far off or the combined roll/sprint input on the same button. W+E is the best solution because it will work as it does now with many basic crowd clear combos.

2. Yes that is a needed change I hope they will do. The current system makes Hysteria broken to an unplayable state. Can neither glide nor do block combos without risking getting one shot. And yes, add standard zoom if carrying a sniper

I dont see how the current inputs will work poorly when they already work in the game we now play. It will work just like now but with a better flow and probably shorter combos. No matter what is decided, keep freakin sprint out of it.

[DiabolusUrsus]

12 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

1. No thanks, they are planning to make it smoother, not clunkier. Your suggestion sounds too much like some BDO combo crap. W+E will work wether you wanna sprint or not, toggle or no toggle.

I think you might be misunderstanding the implications of the planned bindings. Or at least, I don't see how you could claim sprint would be clunkier. (I also don't know what you mean by BDO).

The proposed binding requires players to STOP moving forward, which is almost never something players want to do. Incremental movement will not be enough to move between targets, which means the W+E and gap closer combos are the only ones (maybe AOE too; we'll see) to see any use. Why would you release W when enemies will die just the same? What purpose does the standard combo serve?

12 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

Having to hold sprint or tap sprint for every combo? No thanks, some of us actually have sprint somewhere far off

Why? I need more info to be able to consider possible solutions/accommodations. Where is your far-off sprint binding, and why do you want it there?

12 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

or the combined roll/sprint input on the same button.

Why is this a problem? Sprint/roll is the same button by default.

12 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

W+E is the best solution because it will work as it does now with many basic crowd clear combos.

And on stances with a W+E input how often do you use the standard EEE combo? Probably not often, and that is the point I'm making.

12 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

I dont see how the current inputs will work poorly when they already work in the game we now play. It will work just like now but with a better flow and probably shorter combos.

But they don't work very well. The problem is not the difficulty of executing W+E, it is the awkwardness of executing the E without W.

12 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

No matter what is decided, keep freakin sprint out of it.

So just rebind it. Or let me rebind to it.

I think my binding is more flexible so I proposed it as the standard, but as long as I can get rid of the W+E input forcing me into a different combo simply by moving, I'm happy.

 

[Genitive]

25 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

2. Yes that is a needed change I hope they will do. The current system makes Hysteria broken to an unplayable state. Can neither glide nor do block combos without risking getting one shot. And yes, add standard zoom if carrying a sniper

At the very least they should disable the new weapon swap on exalted weapons. But I want manual blocking back, too.

[SneakyErvin]

25 minutes ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

I think you might be misunderstanding the implications of the planned bindings. Or at least, I don't see how you could claim sprint would be clunkier. (I also don't know what you mean by BDO).

The proposed binding requires players to STOP moving forward, which is almost never something players want to do. Incremental movement will not be enough to move between targets, which means the W+E and gap closer combos are the only ones (maybe AOE too; we'll see) to see any use. Why would you release W when enemies will die just the same? What purpose does the standard combo serve?

Why? I need more info to be able to consider possible solutions/accommodations. Where is your far-off sprint binding, and why do you want it there?

Why is this a problem? Sprint/roll is the same button by default.

And on stances with a W+E input how often do you use the standard EEE combo? Probably not often, and that is the point I'm making.

But they don't work very well. The problem is not the difficulty of executing W+E, it is the awkwardness of executing the E without W.

So just rebind it. Or let me rebind to it.

I think my binding is more flexible so I proposed it as the standard, but as long as I can get rid of the W+E input forcing me into a different combo simply by moving, I'm happy.

 

Black Desert Online. One million pointless button interactions to pull off combos.

And no the proposed changes do not require players to simply stop moving. It will very likely depend on the weapon. Currently with polearms you move as fast forward just spamming E as you do holding W while spamming E. This is because the combo/weapon decided the movement pattern. Throwing in sprint there wont change that, you wont go faster during combat. There are plenty of situations where you might not wanna move forward too much, like versus nullifiers, where letting go of W in the current game helps alot. So E only will have its place.

As for sprint, my toggle is far off, much like I do with autorun in other games. Roll/sprint isnt. But the roll/sprint combination means that a bad tap will result in a roll if required to be used in combat. It is also a button placed akwardly for use together with melee attacks for me. It is however placed just right to be used as I let go off E in cases where a dodge is needed. I pretty much never use it for sprinting, the only reason I have roll/sprint combination at all is due to afterburners on archwing, otherwise that button would be dedicated for roll only.

Currently I use the EEE alot, both on some regular weapons and on frames like Excal when I dont wanna move forward while attacking.

For me (and probably many others) they work very well. The problem I have currently are the combos themselves that are a bit hit and miss in some cases.

And sure, I dont mind if they add an option to somehow rebind it to the sprint key of choice, just dont push for it being the default when many have been used to the current system for ages. No reason to fix what isnt broken. For me a shift to using sprint as a combo trigger is on the same level as the horrible auto-block we have now, which Steve claimed was to be in order to simplify melee.

[DiabolusUrsus]

45 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

Black Desert Online. One million pointless button interactions to pull off combos.

That seems unfair.

How is Shift + E any more complicated than W+E?

I'm not adding any extra inputs.

Quote

And no the proposed changes do not require players to simply stop moving.

Yes, they do. If W+E is its own combo, then players cannot do the standard E combo while moving forward.

And let's not pretend the A/S/D + E combos are usable.

Quote

It will very likely depend on the weapon. Currently with polearms you move as fast forward just spamming E as you do holding W while spamming E. This is because the combo/weapon decided the movement pattern.

Simply false. A major selling point of their proposed inputs is that it will be universal across all weapons. These inputs will affect all weapons.

Quote

Throwing in sprint there wont change that, you wont go faster during combat.

That is not the point of my suggestion, and my suggestion does not actually require the player to be sprinting to use the combo.

It's just the sprint binding + E, which could be used while standing still.

Thanks, though; added clarification to OP.

Quote

There are plenty of situations where you might not wanna move forward too much, like versus nullifiers, where letting go of W in the current game helps alot. So E only will have its place.

So you want an entire combo dedicated to fighting 1-2 specific enemies existing in only 2 factions (Corpus + Corrupted)?

My system will allow players to use both the standard and crowd-clear combos while moving OR standing still.

Quote

As for sprint, my toggle is far off, much like I do with autorun in other games. Roll/sprint isnt. But the roll/sprint combination means that a bad tap will result in a roll if required to be used in combat. It is also a button placed akwardly for use together with melee attacks for me. It is however placed just right to be used as I let go off E in cases where a dodge is needed. I pretty much never use it for sprinting, the only reason I have roll/sprint combination at all is due to afterburners on archwing, otherwise that button would be dedicated for roll only.

What is your roll/sprint key, if not Left Shift? And wouldn't you be covered by the ability to rebind the combo inputs?

You could just bind it to W+E if you really wanted. I thought there was some issue where that wouldn't work for you.

Quote

Currently I use the EEE alot, both on some regular weapons and on frames like Excal when I dont wanna move forward while attacking.

Again, this would still be possible with my proposed bindings. It just wouldn't be MANDATORY to use the standard combo.

Quote

And sure, I dont mind if they add an option to somehow rebind it to the sprint key of choice,

Ok, cool.

Quote

just dont push for it being the default when many have been used to the current system for ages.

Veterancy is not much of a defense in Warframe. Longstanding features/status quos are always subject to change.

Quote

No reason to fix what isnt broken. For me a shift to using sprint as a combo trigger is on the same level as the horrible auto-block we have now, which Steve claimed was to be in order to simplify melee.

And for me, W+E combos are on the same level as the horrible auto-block. Like I said, though, I'm happy as long as I can get rid of it by rebinding.

However, I disagree that the existing bindings aren't broken.

Edited May 24, 2019 by DiabolusUrsus

[SneakyErvin]

13 hours ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

That seems unfair.

How is Shift + E any more complicated than W+E?

I'm not adding any extra inputs.

Yes, they do. If W+E is its own combo, then players cannot do the standard E combo while moving forward.

And let's not pretend the A/S/D + E combos are usable.

Simply false. A major selling point of their proposed inputs is that it will be universal across all weapons. These inputs will affect all weapons.

That is not the point of my suggestion, and my suggestion does not actually require the player to be sprinting to use the combo.

It's just the sprint binding + E, which could be used while standing still.

Thanks, though; added clarification to OP.

So you want an entire combo dedicated to fighting 1-2 specific enemies existing in only 2 factions (Corpus + Corrupted)?

My system will allow players to use both the standard and crowd-clear combos while moving OR standing still.

What is your roll/sprint key, if not Left Shift? And wouldn't you be covered by the ability to rebind the combo inputs?

You could just bind it to W+E if you really wanted. I thought there was some issue where that wouldn't work for you.

Again, this would still be possible with my proposed bindings. It just wouldn't be MANDATORY to use the standard combo.

Ok, cool.

Veterancy is not much of a defense in Warframe. Longstanding features/status quos are always subject to change.

And for me, W+E combos are on the same level as the horrible auto-block. Like I said, though, I'm happy as long as I can get rid of it by rebinding.

However, I disagree that the existing bindings aren't broken.

All you have are speculations on how it will work. We know the combos will be universal for easier muscle memory across the weapon classes but we dont know how the different weapon class combos will work mechanically. As been said before, most weapons will play the same, they will simply have better, more easily achieved combos along with better reach for the most part.

E alone may very well keep the basic combo intact which means that it will serve a different purpose for each weapon class. For polearms and heavy blades is may both serve as a narrow frontal attack or a wider area attack, depending on which stance you equip. That is the idea I've gotten from their intended changes. E will simply be your current standard stance combo, W+E will be a new or exsisting crowd clear combo. I'm just confused why they have a crowd clear and an AoE combo... wouldnt those practically be the same? Or is their idea of AoE combo a standing groundslam?

I far rather have W+E than Shift+E. It is far simpler to let go of W and simply press E than hold Shift+E or Shift+E+W (if I wanna make sure to move forward when not attacking). So you are basically adding another key input in the combo, because using W will be there in most cases anyway. And not matter what, the input command that is innate to sprint would still kick in, so whenever you stop attacking you sprint or roll.

In the end, we dont know the mechanics of the combos, so asking for changes now just isnt viable. Maybe after they've released the reworked stances and had a chance to test the system we can come here and ask for changes.

[Steel_Rook]

16 hours ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

Change the W + E combo to Sprint + E.
CLARIFICATION: Sprint binding only. Players do not actually need to be sprinting to use the combo. So for the default keyboard binds, it would be Shift + E.
To accommodate console players and toggle-sprint users, make combo modifiers (the combo inputs added to the "melee" binding) fully rebindable.

Yuck! No! Anything that requires the use of my sprint key is a non-starter. Never, EVER require me to hold a keyboard key that isn't movement. I'd much rather use aim than sprint, because aim is on my mouse and sprint is deliberately out-of-the-way in an inconvenient spot because I almost never use it. Forward + Melee is a perfectly logical way of triggering an advancing combo, and indeed what I intuitively go for by default because I want to move towards the enemy and attack. What exactly is the downside to it?

 

16 hours ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

Re-implement manual blocking bound to "Aim," and apply ADS zoom while blocking and simply handle the switch when the player fires. This will support deeper melee interactions in the future, restore things like melee aim-glide without requiring players to unequip all their guns, and support aiming before firing.

Also no, sorry. I don't want manual blocking back under any circumstances. Quite the opposite - I want automatic blocking active regardless of whether I have my melee weapon "equipped." I know auto-blocking has its issues, chiefly when trying to charge up a melee attack, but those are fixable issues. Have any offensive action - aiming, shooting, meleeing, charging a melee attack - suppress block and override blocking if it's already happening. While you're at it, disable the forced glide while blocking in the air.

While we're at it, separate Glide from Aim. My suggestion remains the same - bind aim glide to holding jump while in the air, then allow players to additionally aim while gliding if they want to. That's a bigger topic so I'll leave it at that, but I definitely don't want to go back to manual blocking. Very little in this game is telegraphed enough to merit blocking being an active choice. I'd rather leave it as something my Warframe does on its own if I'm not doing anything else.

As to the specific button inputs... I don't know. I used to think that using aim was annoying, but I've gotten used to it, personally. That should probably be separately rebindable like you suggested previously, but I might just leave it on Right Click + Thumb Button, as I have it currently.

 

16 hours ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

If you somehow hadn't noticed by now, Warframe is a very mobile game. There is rarely, if ever, good reason to make a sitting duck of yourself by not moving around while attacking. Incremental movement is not enough, and TTK is far too short for "standard" vs. "crowd clear" to be a useful distinction. The result of this will be that most players simply won't use the standard stationary combo much (if at all).

Strongly disagree. Warframe offers substantial mobility, but I've yet to see a situation where mobility is DEMANDED, outside of gimmick bosses. Plenty of enemies (basically all of the Grenier) have hitscan weapons anyway. There are plenty of situations where enemies will swarm you in melee from all directions, or when you'll end up in a large group of enemies on all sides. That's more or less what fighting the Infested typically boils down to. I've been using a Galatine and then a Paracesis with the Cleaving Whirlwind -> Broken Bull combo pretty much since I started out and it's served me just fine. Granted, that does move slightly, but it's still a rooting attack with a fixed advancement speed.

What I'm not convinced is necessary is a "gap closer" combo because we're already fully capable of doing that via Bullet Jumps and the aimed Ground Slam. That may be down to me misunderstanding what that term means, but I envision a combo with a lot of those HORRIBLE lunges that all too often toss me off of platforms and past my target. Unless DE want to implement some kind of softlock autotarget for those lunges, I don't see myself ever using those combos.

[DiabolusUrsus]

2 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

All you have are speculations on how it will work. We know the combos will be universal for easier muscle memory across the weapon classes but we dont know how the different weapon class combos will work mechanically. As been said before, most weapons will play the same, they will simply have better, more easily achieved combos along with better reach for the most part.

As I said at the beginning, though, I am not concerned with the combos themselves. Only the bindings. And the bindings are supposed to be universal.

Quote

E alone may very well keep the basic combo intact which means that it will serve a different purpose for each weapon class. For polearms and heavy blades is may both serve as a narrow frontal attack or a wider area attack, depending on which stance you equip. That is the idea I've gotten from their intended changes. E will simply be your current standard stance combo, W+E will be a new or exsisting crowd clear combo. I'm just confused why they have a crowd clear and an AoE combo... wouldnt those practically be the same? Or is their idea of AoE combo a standing groundslam?

This is entirely beside the point. For me, any stance with EEE or W+E effectively has only 1 combo because I will practically never use the non-W+E. I don't really care whether their AOE is a sweep or slam or whatever.

I am concerned with combo execution, not content.

Quote

I far rather have W+E than Shift+E. It is far simpler to let go of W and simply press E than hold Shift+E or Shift+E+W (if I wanna make sure to move forward when not attacking). So you are basically adding another key input in the combo,

You're welcome to your opinion, but be truthful about it. I am not adding another key input, only substituting one. Total inputs required is still 2.

Quote

because using W will be there in most cases anyway. And not matter what, the input command that is innate to sprint would still kick in, so whenever you stop attacking you sprint or roll.

In the end, we dont know the mechanics of the combos, so asking for changes now just isnt viable. Maybe after they've released the reworked stances and had a chance to test the system we can come here and ask for changes.

The mechanics of the combos aren't relevant. My point is that the bindings will make the standard combo needlessly awkward to use within the flow of the game.

2 hours ago, Steel_Rook said:

Yuck! No! Anything that requires the use of my sprint key is a non-starter. Never, EVER require me to hold a keyboard key that isn't movement.

So give a viable alternative, and don't ignore the option to rebind it.

This is largely a personal quibble, seeing as how the default game uses hold bindings for sprint and crouch. I'd assume that for toggle-sprint users they could toggle between the combos (no holding needed, ta-dah) or otherwise rebind it to their preference.

Quote

I'd much rather use aim than sprint, because aim is on my mouse and sprint is deliberately out-of-the-way in an inconvenient spot because I almost never use it.

Except that's taken.

Quote

Forward + Melee is a perfectly logical way of triggering an advancing combo, and indeed what I intuitively go for by default because I want to move towards the enemy and attack. What exactly is the downside to it?

The fact that it precludes the use of the non-advancing combo. It effectively halves the number of available combos in 90+% of combat scenarios, with the exception of using melee to chop through Nullifier shields because you don't want to lose a buff (otherwise you just step into it).

Quote

Also no, sorry. I don't want manual blocking back under any circumstances. Quite the opposite - I want automatic blocking active regardless of whether I have my melee weapon "equipped." I know auto-blocking has its issues, chiefly when trying to charge up a melee attack, but those are fixable issues. Have any offensive action - aiming, shooting, meleeing, charging a melee attack - suppress block and override blocking if it's already happening.

I want 2 things out of manual blocking:

1. Reflection of enemy bullets at the crosshair, which would mesh nicely with the ADS zoom added to block.

2. Timed parries for boss/miniboss fights to create melee vulnerabilities where there would otherwise be none.

I don't see why auto-block and manual block can't coexist, either, with your proposed changes (no forced blocking, no forced glide).

Auto-block would trigger with no attack inputs, but would not be able to reflect or parry.

Manual block would enable reflection and trigger a brief parry window whenever pressed.

Quote

While you're at it, disable the forced glide while blocking in the air.

Yes, I agree that forced actions of any kind are no fun.

Quote

While we're at it, separate Glide from Aim. My suggestion remains the same - bind aim glide to holding jump while in the air, then allow players to additionally aim while gliding if they want to. That's a bigger topic so I'll leave it at that, but I definitely don't want to go back to manual blocking. Very little in this game is telegraphed enough to merit blocking being an active choice. I'd rather leave it as something my Warframe does on its own if I'm not doing anything else.

Well, I agree that mooks don't telegraph enough to warrant it currently. However, I want it back because

a) I hate the feel of auto-block and

b) I want it there to support implementation of minibosses/bosses with telegraphed attacks.

Quote

As to the specific button inputs... I don't know. I used to think that using aim was annoying, but I've gotten used to it, personally. That should probably be separately rebindable like you suggested previously, but I might just leave it on Right Click + Thumb Button, as I have it currently.

As long as aiming doesn't auto-switch back to guns it's no longer a problem.

Quote

Strongly disagree. Warframe offers substantial mobility, but I've yet to see a situation where mobility is DEMANDED,

Doesn't matter. In what situation is immobility DESIRED?

Quote

Plenty of enemies (basically all of the Grenier) have hitscan weapons anyway.

Hitscan enemies still have accuracy algorithms that are affected by movement. A player standing still will take more hits than one that isn't.

More importantly, a player that is moving around and killing more enemies will have fewer enemies to shoot at them in the first place.

Quote

There are plenty of situations where enemies will swarm you in melee from all directions, or when you'll end up in a large group of enemies on all sides. That's more or less what fighting the Infested typically boils down to. I've been using a Galatine and then a Paracesis with the Cleaving Whirlwind -> Broken Bull combo pretty much since I started out and it's served me just fine. Granted, that does move slightly, but it's still a rooting attack with a fixed advancement speed.

You're missing the point. Do you need to stand stock-still to trigger Broken Bull? No.

I can move away from immobility associated with heavier weapons by picking lighter weapons, but I cannot move away from universal bindings that stop me from moving to use a specific combo. I'm also mostly okay with slowing down to swing a heavy blade because it has the reach to mitigate that... 

But on Fang Prime? Prisma Skana? Pretty much anything that's not a heavy blade or polearm? Not a good time.

Quote

What I'm not convinced is necessary is a "gap closer" combo because we're already fully capable of doing that via Bullet Jumps and the aimed Ground Slam. That may be down to me misunderstanding what that term means, but I envision a combo with a lot of those HORRIBLE lunges that all too often toss me off of platforms and past my target. Unless DE want to implement some kind of softlock autotarget for those lunges, I don't see myself ever using those combos.

Actually agreed with the soft-lock, though I find most of the lunges to be usable.

Edited May 25, 2019 by DiabolusUrsus

[ShortCat]

19 hours ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

1. Change the W + E combo to Sprint + E.

I need one clarification: you suggest to move stationary EEEE combo to W + E or just EEEE, and therefore the planed W + E to Sprint + E, right?

19 hours ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

2. Re-implement manual blocking bound to "Aim,"

If RMB is transformed into blocking, there will be another issue with controlls, namely the only way to reequip your primary/secondary weapon would be shooting. This is a problem, because there should be a non agressive action to take out your gun, so that you do not waiste ammo or alert enemies.
I am all in for manual blocking and RMB is really convenient for it, but in this case F-key should reequip last used ranged weapon in melee mode, and switch between guns outside of melee mode.

 

[DiabolusUrsus]

Just now, ShortCat said:

I need one clarification: you suggest to move stationary EEEE combo to W + E or just EEEE, and therefore the planed W + E to Sprint + E, right?

Effectively, yes.

Standard= E

Crowd= Shift + E.

That way players can use either combo while moving forward, instead of being forced into the crowd-clear combo.

Just now, ShortCat said:

If RMB is transformed into blocking, there will be another issue with controlls, namely the only way to reequip your primary/secondary weapon would be shooting. This is a problem, because there should be a non agressive action to take out your gun, so that you do not waiste ammo or alert enemies.
I am all in for manual blocking and RMB is really convenient for it, but in this case F-key should reequip last used ranged weapon in melee mode, and switch between guns outside of melee mode.

Yes, agreed 100%.

That was what I meant, but I had neglected to mention that F would re-equip the last-used gun first.

Derp.

[ShortCat]

3 minutes ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

Effectively, yes.

Standard= E

Crowd= Shift + E.

That way players can use either combo while moving forward, instead of being forced into the crowd-clear combo.

Then edit your OP, because from reading most comments, I get the impression people think you just want to change W + E into Sprint + E, or in other words rebind the keys, not move combos and make standard or stationary EEEE work with W + E.

[Teridax68]

Regarding point #1, why not simply abandon those extra "stationary" combos, and just pare the sets down to two per stance? Why is DE doubling their already massive workload for the sake of a couple combo sets that make no sense relative to Warframe's movement? Why do we even need four comboes when we could easily just have one combo for quick attacks, and one for heavy attacks?

As for point #2, I completely agree, I think we need a standard zoom for ADS, including for blocking (we're focusing on a source of damage to block anyway), and guns that zoom farther should do so via alt fire, which is already the case for sniper rifles and pistols. As mentioned in the OP, the situations where the player wants to zoom in are situations where the player has the time to do so, so this could make for a significant QoL improvement in a world where gunplay and melee are two halves of the same, unified combat system.

Edited May 25, 2019 by Teridax68

[DiabolusUrsus]

21 minutes ago, ShortCat said:

Then edit your OP, because from reading most comments, I get the impression people think you just want to change W + E into Sprint + E, or in other words rebind the keys, not move combos and make standard or stationary EEEE work with W + E.

Yep, will do when I can sit down and type. I don't like making structural edits from mobile, and I'll take a stab at reorganizing from my PC.

I wrote the thread from mobile while it was still newly relevant during my lunch break. :X

12 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

Regarding point #1, why not simply abandon those extra "stationary" combos, and just pare the sets down to two per stance? Why is DE doubling their already massive workload for the sake of a couple combo sets that make no sense relative to Warframe's movement? Why do we even need four comboes when we could easily just have one combo for quick attacks, and one for heavy attacks?

... Goid point.

Quote

As for point #2, I completely agree, I think we need a standard zoom for ADS, including for blocking (we're focusing on a source of damage to block anyway), and guns that zoom farther should do so via alt fire, which is already the case for sniper rifles and pistols. As mentioned in the OP, the situations where the player wants to zoom in are situations where the player has the time to do so, so this could make for a significant QoL improvement in a world where gunplay and melee are two halves of the same, unified combat system.

Also a good point, though would the alt-fire binding be a toggle or hold? How would they handle changing zoom levels? Would they scrap those, too, for a single level of zoom now that we have standard/scoped?

[Steel_Rook]

4 hours ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

The fact that it precludes the use of the non-advancing combo. It effectively halves the number of available combos in 90+% of combat scenarios, with the exception of using melee to chop through Nullifier shields because you don't want to lose a buff (otherwise you just step into it).

It precludes nothing. From what I've seen of the latest dev stream, movement within a combo is controlled by the combo itself rather than directional inputs. It doesn't matter how you move the bindings around, you can't make the standard combo move faster. Even if Forward + Melee wouldn't trigger a different combo, the standard combo wouldn't move any faster. This is already the case with the Broken Bull combo. Once it's underway, I can hold Forward, Back, Left or Right and nothing about how my character moves changes. Despite offering forward movement, it's still a rooting combo. From what I've seen, that's the direction DE are taking all of their combos.

 

4 hours ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

You're missing the point. Do you need to stand stock-still to trigger Broken Bull? No. 

Yes, I do. If I'm moving forward, the Sundered Tusk tends to activate quite often, instead. Not to mention that if I want the Crowd Fall combo, I have to actively not press Forward else I ger routed to the Sundered Tusk instead. As I rather dislike the Sundered Tusk combo for its long-distance lunge and generally goofy animations, that's something I've simply learned to avoid. Considering all of the Galatine attacks are rooting, using most of my combos has been as simple as releasing Forward while I input my melee attack commands.

 

4 hours ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

Doesn't matter. In what situation is immobility DESIRED?

When I'm already surrounded by enemies advancing at me from in front and behind. Mobility keeps me ahead of enemies behind me and thus hinders room-clearing capability. It's also desired when I'm fighting a single large target. Combos which move forward aggressively have the tendency to slide past my target and swing at nothing behind it. COMPLETE immobility is rarely useful, this is true, but very limited mobility is.

 

4 hours ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

I want it there to support implementation of minibosses/bosses with telegraphed attacks.

Then we'll have to disagree, because I'm personally not interested in parry mechanics of any sort. The game already supports this in an awkward, roundabout way and I feel the same way about it as I do about manual blocking - it's needlessly complex for a game with fairly loose controls otherwise. One of the reasons I like auto-blocking is precisely because it removes the need for precision timing. I can block a Flame Eximus explosion or Shockwave Moa stomp as long as I draw my weapon early enough. In my ideal system, that would come down to "as long as I notice it early enough and turn around to face it." There's nothing fundamentally wrong with fighting bosses in melee, but I'd personally like to avoid Dark Souls mechanics in those in the same way I'd like to avoid bullet drop and armour angling.

To make a long story short: If given the choice between manual blocking for the purpose of parrying a boss and autoblocking with no parry mechanics, I'm always going to pick the latter. I don't feel that a game like this has room for complex melee combat mechanics.

 

4 hours ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

Hitscan enemies still have accuracy algorithms that are affected by movement. A player standing still will take more hits than one that isn't.

The algorithms are affected specifically by parkour, not just movement. Simple walking and sprinting don't affect the accuracy calculations as far as I know. Moreover, plenty of weapons benefit from precise aiming which I personally find impractical to do while bullet-jumping through the air. The likes of the Supra or the Tenora are easy fired on the move. The likes of the Lanka or the Paris, not so much. While Warframe does reward movement, it by no means requires it to play properly. A number of Warframes have designs more closely tailored towards a slower-paced, turtling playstyle. The likes of Atlas, Inaros, Nidus, Frost and a few others work better in a stand-and-fight scenario than they do in a run-and-gun one. Warframe does a decent job catering to a broad range of playstyles. Over-emphasising a playstyle which revolves around constant bullet-jumping is needlessly limiting when you're talking about a core gameplay system shared between all players of all builds and all playstyles.

---

With all of that said, I'm not necessarily opposed to moving binds around. Your original suggestion of custom keybinds (which I did address even if you didn't quote me) is a decent way to get around each player's preferred combo trigger style. Having played around with the idea, I'm not at all opposed to using my Crouch key to trigger Aim combos instead of the Aim button. Developers talked about doing away with Crouch entirely and swapping that to either a stealth mode toggle or something else that I don't recall, so that could easily work for me personally. I use crouch quite a bit for the purpose of Bullet Jumping and Toggle Crouch could simply toggle the combo modifier on and off as you suggested.

 

4 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Regarding point #1, why not simply abandon those extra "stationary" combos, and just pare the sets down to two per stance? Why is DE doubling their already massive workload for the sake of a couple combo sets that make no sense relative to Warframe's movement? Why do we even need four comboes when we could easily just have one combo for quick attacks, and one for heavy attacks? 

I agree that we don't need this many combos, especially as some of them are redundant. I don't know that I can even come up with four combo types. I can cite a gap-closing combo with lunges, a stationary AoE combo for room-clearing and some kind of single-target-focused melee spam to bring down larger targets. You could easily pair it down to two combos per Stance depending on the weapon and the stance. That simplifies controls substantially and eliminates redundant combos which exist solely for looking cool, though it doesn't remove the issue of triggering more than one combo.

Edited May 25, 2019 by Steel_Rook

[Teridax68]

24 minutes ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

Also a good point, though would the alt-fire binding be a toggle or hold? How would they handle changing zoom levels? Would they scrap those, too, for a single level of zoom now that we have standard/scoped?

I think the "safe" default option should be for the enhanced zoom to be a toggle, much like the Lanka's current three levels of zoom (which would turn into four with this change). Honestly, though, I don't think there's a real need for more than one degree of enhanced zooming in the majority of cases, since standard ADS should be enough to cover mid-ranges, and anything beyond that would likely be served just fine by a single long-range zoom. As a side note, I also dislike tying zoom levels to stat bonuses, and I feel those should be scrapped altogether, along with sniper combo meters, so that snipers as a weapon class get condensed down to weapons with immensely powerful shots as a baseline, in exchange for their slow rates of fire.

[TaylorsContraction]

I disagree with OP about stationary combos

 

those are great when you down a really tough opponent and need to shed them before they get back up.  mobile combos make this difficult,  stationary ones are awesome for this.

[Steel_Rook]

1 hour ago, Teridax68 said:

As a side note, I also dislike tying zoom levels to stat bonuses, and I feel those should be scrapped altogether, along with sniper combo meters, so that snipers as a weapon class get condensed down to weapons with immensely powerful shots as a baseline, in exchange for their slow rates of fire.

I don't know about Sniper Combo (ambivalent), but I definitely want to get rid of scope bonuses which scale with zoom level. Let there be a scoped bonus, fine - these are scoped weapons. Just have a flat value regardless of zoom level. All the current mechanic does is encourage scope-feathering so we can get maximum return even in mid-to-close-range encounters. I'm biased in this, however, as I dislike the ADS mechanic as a whole and wouldn't be opposed to reducing its impact on gameplay.

---

Something else I'd meant to post regarding Diabolus' suggestion for keybinding. Can we just be allowed to bind the same key to multiple actions like we can bind multiple keys to the same action? Maybe warn people of potential conflicts, but let me reuse the same keys anyway. The reason I say this is because that way, we could simply have four new keys for Combos 1 through 4. Leave the bind bare and the combo triggers by just pressing melee. Set a key and that key needs to be held for that combo to trigger. Set a key combo (like Ctrl + V) and all keys need to be held to trigger the combo. Set multiple combo keys to the same keyboard button and you're only able to execute the first combo in the list.

That way, a player can bind their combos to W + E or Right Click + Mouse 5, or Shift + Q or even Right Click + Shift + Mouse 5. The whole point of the melee system was to have independent buttons for melee and shooting, so give us independent keybinds for melee and shooting. By all means, default to them to Right Click and W or whatever, but let us edit them to whatever we please, even if that's used for something else.

For instance, I could do Use Key + Melee for the AoE combo quite easily. There are very few situations in which I foresee that being a problem. And if I do end up accidentally grabbing a battery or hacking a console when I meant to melee... Well, that's my fault for picking those binds, isn't it? In fact, that could solve the Aimglide issue by letting us bind Aim and Glide separately, but defaulting them both to Right Mouse. And if I wanted to, I could rebind glide to Jump, instead. Same for Sprint/Roll, actually.

[NoLazyShadow]

20 часов назад, SneakyErvin сказал:

The current system makes Hysteria broken to an unplayable state

Yet there are a lot of people with pink glasses that keep telling "Valkyr is fine, she don't need rework"..

[SneakyErvin]

3 hours ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

As I said at the beginning, though, I am not concerned with the combos themselves. Only the bindings. And the bindings are supposed to be universal.

This is entirely beside the point. For me, any stance with EEE or W+E effectively has only 1 combo because I will practically never use the non-W+E. I don't really care whether their AOE is a sweep or slam or whatever.

I am concerned with combo execution, not content.

You're welcome to your opinion, but be truthful about it. I am not adding another key input, only substituting one. Total inputs required is still 2.

They are as universal as they can get with the system they have planned because there is no interfearance between accidental sprinting/rolling. You cant screw up with W being used because it doesnt move you in the same was as sprint or roll. W is controlled movement.

It is up to you if you wanna neglect a stance. You wouldnt get more movement out of the EEE combo if you slap shift+E on the area clear. You are still having a "stationary" combo just the same. It wont magically move you just because you'll be able to pull it off while holding W. However, there is a great chance (risk) that the shift+E combo will move you more than you wish most times, or accidentally make you roll or sprint past the target before you hit E for the combo to start. Same deal when you let go off E. With W+E you simply let go of W or E and either go into combo one or take a few baby steps forward. And a pure EEE combo will be used versus heavy single targets, like bosses, noxes, nullibubbles etc.

And if you are concerned with combo execution you should have really thought of all the possible clunkyness tied to sprint/roll.

You are indeed adding input because you will now require 3 buttons if you wanna move forward while using your crowd clear, with the added risk of the unwanted rolls or bursts of sprinting.

[SneakyErvin]

1 minute ago, NoLazyShadow said:

Yet there are a lot of people with pink glasses that keep telling "Valkyr is fine, she don't need rework"..

Valkyr is fine, but auto-block/auto-swap is destroying her.

[(PSN)DidacoJack]

1. I don't understand part of this point. You say stationary combos don't have a use, so you want to solve the problem by changing the bindings of the W + E? 

How would this solve the stationary combo problem? 

For the rest, I actually use stationary combos a lot. I'm a melee main and I like to use every melee weapon in the game. One of my favorite are fist weapons and given the short range, the last thing I want to do while facing an enemy is moving forward thus missing most of my attacks (most of the times enemies don't die from a single punch).

The option "align attacks to camera" is really helpful in this matter, and I do use it, but most of the times it results clunky and poor implemented. 

That said, we still don't know how combos will interact with each other. Maybe we'll be able to switch from a stationary combo to a gap closer (or a forward) one seamlessly.

For now, imo what DE showed in the devstream seems fine. 

2. I'd like to propose my take on this matter:

Bring back manual block and bind it to fire button (right trigger on console). 

All current current combos that require aim would be change to block combos. 

This way, to switch from melee to primary/secondary, you must aim. 

[(PSN)jaggerwanderer]

If we're going that far with keybinding. I suggest we are allow to put in any combine of buttons binding we so choose. Our console controller don't have the english alphabet on them. So it's very limiting on which button we want to use just for certain combos that doesn't require two hand gymastics.

[DiabolusUrsus]

6 hours ago, Steel_Rook said:

It precludes nothing. From what I've seen of the latest dev stream, movement within a combo is controlled by the combo itself rather than directional inputs. It doesn't matter how you move the bindings around, you can't make the standard combo move faster. Even if Forward + Melee wouldn't trigger a different combo, the standard combo wouldn't move any faster. This is already the case with the Broken Bull combo. Once it's underway, I can hold Forward, Back, Left or Right and nothing about how my character moves changes. Despite offering forward movement, it's still a rooting combo. From what I've seen, that's the direction DE are taking all of their combos.

Gonna start out by addressing something I wanted to say earlier but didn't have the chance to -

I'm sorry if you took offense to my "personal quibble" comment. That really wasn't intended as a criticism or judgment of your preferences, and it surprised me that it upset you because it wasn't something that struck me as particularly offensive or critical. What I meant to underscore was that

a) the game uses sustained key combinations as part of its default controls, and those controls work fine for plenty of players.

b) the game already supports mechanisms for you to avoid those sustained controls (toggles) which would still work just fine with my proposed inputs.

c) you would have the option of rebinding away from it, and you've already had to rebind the default controls anyway due to not liking sustained sprint.

Moving on, my suggestion is not aimed at getting combos to be faster or more mobile than the animations allow for. It is aimed squarely at the bindings needed to initiate them - I would like to be able to switch freely between the combos whether I am moving or stationary.

6 hours ago, Steel_Rook said:

Yes, I do. If I'm moving forward, the Sundered Tusk tends to activate quite often, instead. Not to mention that if I want the Crowd Fall combo, I have to actively not press Forward else I ger routed to the Sundered Tusk instead. As I rather dislike the Sundered Tusk combo for its long-distance lunge and generally goofy animations, that's something I've simply learned to avoid. Considering all of the Galatine attacks are rooting, using most of my combos has been as simple as releasing Forward while I input my melee attack commands.

I don't really know that there's anything to say about this, other than that I don't encounter this issue at all. When I want to do Broken Bull, I do Broken Bull. I pretty much never want to use Sundered Tusk, so I don't. And I don't have to let go of W to do that. Maybe if you're running a Berserker build and mashing like crazy it would get harder to do, but at standard or even somewhat accelerated rates I have no issues with differentiating the combos.

6 hours ago, Steel_Rook said:

When I'm already surrounded by enemies advancing at me from in front and behind. Mobility keeps me ahead of enemies behind me and thus hinders room-clearing capability. It's also desired when I'm fighting a single large target. Combos which move forward aggressively have the tendency to slide past my target and swing at nothing behind it. COMPLETE immobility is rarely useful, this is true, but very limited mobility is.

If the default combo has enough forward momentum that it can compensate for releasing W, wouldn't that also hamper your ability to focus on specific targets? IMO "forced" movement of any kind beyond the very minimal advance on existing combos is the antithesis of fun and responsive combat. That's why I really don't like the proposed inputs - I cannot move forward at the default rate without transitioning into a completely different combo.

6 hours ago, Steel_Rook said:

Then we'll have to disagree, because I'm personally not interested in parry mechanics of any sort. The game already supports this in an awkward, roundabout way and I feel the same way about it as I do about manual blocking - it's needlessly complex for a game with fairly loose controls otherwise. One of the reasons I like auto-blocking is precisely because it removes the need for precision timing. I can block a Flame Eximus explosion or Shockwave Moa stomp as long as I draw my weapon early enough. In my ideal system, that would come down to "as long as I notice it early enough and turn around to face it." There's nothing fundamentally wrong with fighting bosses in melee, but I'd personally like to avoid Dark Souls mechanics in those in the same way I'd like to avoid bullet drop and armour angling.

To make a long story short: If given the choice between manual blocking for the purpose of parrying a boss and autoblocking with no parry mechanics, I'm always going to pick the latter. I don't feel that a game like this has room for complex melee combat mechanics.

So don't use it. I want timed parries to be one of several methods for approaching bosses, not the end-all-be-all defining mechanic of the fight. And as I pointed out, you don't have to choose between them. By all means, keep your auto-block provided it stops overriding player inputs.

6 hours ago, Steel_Rook said:

The algorithms are affected specifically by parkour, not just movement. Simple walking and sprinting don't affect the accuracy calculations as far as I know. Moreover, plenty of weapons benefit from precise aiming which I personally find impractical to do while bullet-jumping through the air. The likes of the Supra or the Tenora are easy fired on the move. The likes of the Lanka or the Paris, not so much. While Warframe does reward movement, it by no means requires it to play properly. A number of Warframes have designs more closely tailored towards a slower-paced, turtling playstyle. The likes of Atlas, Inaros, Nidus, Frost and a few others work better in a stand-and-fight scenario than they do in a run-and-gun one.

I could have sworn it included moving/sprinting, but the wiki doesn't seem to specify (it doesn't even specify for Bullet Jumps as far as I can tell), so I'll concede that point. However, I reject your examples of weapons which cannot be effectively fired on the move - I have no issues firing Lanka, Paris, etc. without standing still. I also don't understand your Atlas/Inaros/Nidus/Frost examples, because I don't notice any difference in my habitual mobility when playing those Frames.

6 hours ago, Steel_Rook said:

Warframe does a decent job catering to a broad range of playstyles. Over-emphasising a playstyle which revolves around constant bullet-jumping is needlessly limiting when you're talking about a core gameplay system shared between all players of all builds and all playstyles.

But I'm not actually stepping on anyone's toes. My proposed bindings will support both mobile and non-mobile playstyles in equal measure by making the combo inputs independent of movement entirely. You wanna execute crowd-clear attacks while standing still? You can. You wanna execute standard combos while moving forward or backward? You can. You wanna use them exactly as the devs envisioned? You can. If catering to a variety of preferences is the priority here, then things should absolutely get changed from the officially-proposed bindings.

6 hours ago, Steel_Rook said:

With all of that said, I'm not necessarily opposed to moving binds around. Your original suggestion of custom keybinds (which I did address even if you didn't quote me) is a decent way to get around each player's preferred combo trigger style. Having played around with the idea, I'm not at all opposed to using my Crouch key to trigger Aim combos instead of the Aim button. Developers talked about doing away with Crouch entirely and swapping that to either a stealth mode toggle or something else that I don't recall, so that could easily work for me personally. I use crouch quite a bit for the purpose of Bullet Jumping and Toggle Crouch could simply toggle the combo modifier on and off as you suggested.

I agree that we don't need this many combos, especially as some of them are redundant. I don't know that I can even come up with four combo types. I can cite a gap-closing combo with lunges, a stationary AoE combo for room-clearing and some kind of single-target-focused melee spam to bring down larger targets. You could easily pair it down to two combos per Stance depending on the weapon and the stance. That simplifies controls substantially and eliminates redundant combos which exist solely for looking cool, though it doesn't remove the issue of triggering more than one combo.

As I said earlier, either of these work for me. I'm not super-attached to having a specific "default" as long as I'm not locked into that default. I also think Teridax' suggestion to just have 1 light (EEE) and 1 heavy (hold E, I presume) combo string per stance both makes a lot of sense and would completely resolve my quibble with the official bindings: the inability to use a specific combo depending on how I am currently moving.

5 hours ago, TaylorsContraction said:

I disagree with OP about stationary combos

 

those are great when you down a really tough opponent and need to shed them before they get back up.  mobile combos make this difficult,  stationary ones are awesome for this.

What tough opponents? I'm not trying to be facetious or anything, but I have not actually encountered an enemy where a combo (aside from a lunge) carries me past them before they are dead. If an enemy is resilient enough to withstand more than a few hits, it's probably not actually vulnerable to melee. The only example that really comes to mind would be the Wolf, but as I said earlier I don't see the sense in reserving an entire combo for a handful of enemies that may or may not even spawn in a given mission.

Just make combos movement-independent, and allow the player to move forward or stay still as they choose.

[MirageKnight]

4 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Valkyr is fine, but auto-block/auto-swap is destroying her.

Someone who actually gets it! 

15 minutes ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

What tough opponents? I'm not trying to be facetious or anything, but I have not actually encountered an enemy where a combo (aside from a lunge) carries me past them before they are dead.

I think, honestly, this is more an issue with how insanely powerful the devs have allowed us to become. If we want to enrich the melee combat experience, we need to be able to fight things that have a bit more meat to them. No, buffing enemies isn't the solution. Rather, our max power level needs to drop a bit. I think weapons themselves are largely ok, but I'd argue the REAL culprit lies in the bonuses we get from mods. Some of those bonuses are ridiculously good.

22 minutes ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

Just make combos movement-independent, and allow the player to move forward or stay still as they choose.

This. There have been situations where in attacking an opponent in melee, I've moved out of the position I wanted to stay in for whatever reason. This takes control of movement AWAY from the player and IMO this is seldom ever a good thing.